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Post by Defcord on May 31, 2023 5:48:12 GMT -6
The odds makers have the over/under set at 4.5 for Colorado wins. The Buffalos were a really bad 1-11 last year. So Vegas is thinking Sanders will do a decent job finding improvement. Sanders thinks they will do even better. I have no clue and wouldn’t want to bet that line. But I’d take the over if it was set at 1.5, pretty comfortably. Yeah...I'd probably take the under on this one. People really don't understand how terrible they were last year. I’m on the same page as you. That was a terrible team and they are going to play a pretty difficult schedule. My point is just the best in the world at setting number of wins think they will be better with Sanders. The situation with kids leaving, I see as a positive for the program because as you point out, they were really bad last year, probably worse than many people realize. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 31, 2023 8:19:47 GMT -6
Seriously. No one even saw Jackson State play, but have all these opinions?
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2023 8:43:45 GMT -6
Seriously. No one even saw Jackson State play, but have all these opinions? I think the reason that many aren't commenting on that is that as experienced coaches many know that "seeing someone play" a few times (especially from a distance or on TV) doesn't really hit the threshold of being able to evaluate much. Think back on your career- is someone sitting in the stands (or better yet, on TV) really going to have a basis to evaluate you? Ironically, if you go by "watching a team play" as the evaluation metric, the only guy that really pops out as "What the heck is that guy doing, he is an imbecile" is LSU's all time winningest coach- Les Miles. Of course, I would agree with you that at least watching them play would be a far better metric than predicting he won't do well because he was fast in the 80s and 90s... To answer your question directly- I saw them play in the Celebration Bowl. They looked like, a FCS football team. Since that's what they are, nothing stood out either way. I didn't see any lack of organization or any "This is going to be a dumpster fire" moments. I didn't see any indication that he and his staff were clueless, but their roster was so clearly bigger/stronger/faster that they had success despite they coaching staff. |
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Post by jg78 on May 31, 2023 10:18:48 GMT -6
Good grief.
1. Sanders played a simplistic role as a player. Basically cover one guy and don’t worry about the other 20 players on the field. He wasn’t out there orchestrating a symphony on the field like a Peyton Manning or Ray Lewis.
2. Sanders dominated his position with his speed. I am not saying he was a bad technician, but he was no Jerry Rice. He had a leg up on his competitors in an area that you can’t really pass on to others: speed.
3. Sanders hasn’t been in coaching very long and never at the P5 level in any role.
There are plenty of reasons to question Sanders, and there are other reasons (his star power, charisma, broad familiarity with big time sports) to think he’s at least worth the risk - especially since there really isn’t any risk at Colorado. I have stated both sides, but you keep harping on this like a jerk when my point is clearly deeper than “he was just too fast.”
And guess what? This is a message board. Opinions and speculation are encouraged here, even with limited knowledge of a situation. If we knew for sure how Sanders (or any other coach) will turn out, we would all be millionaires in a few months, wouldn’t we?
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2023 10:48:29 GMT -6
when my point is clearly deeper than “he was just too fast.” Coach, no it really isn't. You have pre-judged a man's ability to do a task based solely on the very flawed considerations that because physical attributes led to a particular style of play, that somehow limits his football knowledge and acumen. Coach you have prejudged that because a man happened to have the speed, agility, proprioception, heart, desire, and will to be a great defensive back, he is not likely or lacks other skills/traits necessary to teach a kid to keep his pad level low, to read keys, to take proper angles etc. To be a "pure coach" or "technical coach" as you put it. Or that he would not likely be capable of understanding the "complex" defenses of today. It really is that simple. Yes, it is a message board. Speculation is fine. But when it is completely unsubstantiated, it might get called out. |
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Post by jg78 on May 31, 2023 13:52:20 GMT -6
I am speculating based on his background.
Let me ask you two questions:
1. All else being equal, would it be fair to say that quarterbacks, centers, and middle linebackers generally have a deeper understanding of football schemes than do cover corners because they play more complex positions with a greater range of responsibilities?
2. All else being equal, would a player who’s good in spite of mediocre physical ability likely be a better bet to have a greater understanding of the game than someone else who dominated with off-the-charts measureables, especially in a simple role?
I have never heard Deion Sanders talk X’s and O’s at length. Maybe he’s a savant on a chalk board. I don’t know, and neither do you. We can only speculate. And his career as a player is very secondary to his lack of experience as a coach as far as what I expect of him at Colorado. It is a minor factor, but it is a factor since there’s just so little to discuss regarding his actual coaching ability. If it were Peyton Manning jumping into this role with limited coaching experience, I would feel a little better about it because he basically was an OC for about 15 years. Manning might suck as a coach, but his playing career was better prep for a P5 coaching position than Deion’s.
If Deion had just won the natty as DC as UGA and was moving on to Colorado, we wouldn’t even be talking about his playing career aside from the star power it offers. There’s just not much to go on (positive or negative) regarding Deion. That’s why everyone is intrigued by the hire. If he worked his way steadily up the ladder, there probably wouldn’t be as much interest and intrigue.
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Post by 3rdandlong on May 31, 2023 13:56:35 GMT -6
I am speculating based on his background. Let me ask you two questions: 1. All else being equal, would it be fair to say that quarterbacks, centers, and middle linebackers generally have a deeper understanding of football schemes than do cover corners because they play more complex positions with a greater range of responsibilities? 2. All else being equal, would a player who’s good in spite of mediocre physical ability likely be a better bet to have a greater understanding of the game than someone else who dominated with off-the-charts measureables, especially in a simple role? I have never heard Deion Sanders talk X’s and O’s at length. Maybe he’s a savant on a chalk board. I don’t know, and neither do you. We can only speculate. And his career as a player is very secondary to his lack of experience as a coach as far as what I expect of him at Colorado. It is a minor factor, but it is a factor since there’s just so little to discuss regarding his actual coaching ability. If it were Peyton Manning jumping into this role with limited coaching experience, I would feel a little better about it because he basically was an OC for about 15 years. Manning might suck as a coach, but his playing career was better prep for a P5 coaching position than Deion’s. If Deion had just won the natty as DC as UGA and was moving on to Colorado, we wouldn’t even be talking about his playing career aside from the star power it offers. There’s just not much to go on (positive or negative) regarding Deion. That’s why everyone is intrigued by the hire. If he worked his way steadily up the ladder, there probably wouldn’t be as much interest and intrigue. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but Deion isn't being hired because of his X and O ability. He has coordinators and position coaches for that. He's hired to promoted the brand, bring players in, and bring a spark to Colorado football. As much as I'd like to say that what we care about (x's and o's) is the most important part of getting a big job, it is simply a small portion of it. |
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2023 14:50:47 GMT -6
I am speculating based on his background. Let me ask you two questions: 1. All else being equal, would it be fair to say that quarterbacks, centers, and middle linebackers generally have a deeper understanding of football schemes than do cover corners because they play more complex positions with a greater range of responsibilities? 2. All else being equal, would a player who’s good in spite of mediocre physical ability likely be a better bet to have a greater understanding of the game than someone else who dominated with off-the-charts measureables, especially in a simple role? I have never heard Deion Sanders talk X’s and O’s at length. Maybe he’s a savant on a chalk board. I don’t know, and neither do you. We can only speculate. And his career as a player is very secondary to his lack of experience as a coach as far as what I expect of him at Colorado. It is a minor factor, but it is a factor since there’s just so little to discuss regarding his actual coaching ability. If it were Peyton Manning jumping into this role with limited coaching experience, I would feel a little better about it because he basically was an OC for about 15 years. Manning might suck as a coach, but his playing career was better prep for a P5 coaching position than Deion’s. If Deion had just won the natty as DC as UGA and was moving on to Colorado, we wouldn’t even be talking about his playing career aside from the star power it offers. There’s just not much to go on (positive or negative) regarding Deion. That’s why everyone is intrigued by the hire. If he worked his way steadily up the ladder, there probably wouldn’t be as much interest and intrigue. 1- NO. It would not. It would be fair to say that in order to be successful, players at those positions have to have a solid understanding of many aspects of football while a cover corner can be successful at his task without such understandings. THAT IS NOT the same as what you are suggesting. You are saying "well, since a cover corner can have success without understanding the mechanics, then I feel comfortable prejudging this specific human being by saying I don't think he has an understanding of those aspects of football". Those two concepts are NOT the same. 2- No they would not likely be "a better bet" to have such understanding. For the same reasons as above. Coach the mindset you are displaying in these two posts parallels the mindset that made Doug Williams famous, and why Warren Moon played his first 6 years in the CFL. Sidenote- Moon actually is on record as saying that he slowed down running the 40 so people would focus more on hs QB play and not his measurable physical attributes. The mindset being that because of _______(fill in any unrelated reason) then these guys can't _______(fill in task or responsibility). Now I don't think you are prejudging because of Sanders skin color -- please don't misunderstand that. I am saying that you are prejudging him on a factor that has nothing to do with the likelyhood that he can coach or that he is adept at x's and o's. His athletic prowess. As I stated earlier, saying that a QB needs to understand more moving parts than a cover corner needs to DOES NOT in any way, shape, or form determine what that cover corner actually understands or is capable of. Also keep in mind the reality of the situation is NOT that 1999 Deion Sanders is leaving Texas Stadium through a time portal and arriving in Boulder. The man has been coaching for nearly a decade, and has been involved with football for much longer. Time will tell. And I don't have particularly strong feelings for much about this other than : 1) CU absolutely are in a better spot RIGHT NOW with Sanders than they have been in quite a while. 2) It is prejudicial (but not because of race) to have doubt about Sanders and his capabilities because of his athletic prowess. |
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Post by larrymoe on May 31, 2023 15:15:10 GMT -6
Seriously. No one even saw Jackson State play, but have all these opinions? I think the reason that many aren't commenting on that is that as experienced coaches many know that "seeing someone play" a few times (especially from a distance or on TV) doesn't really hit the threshold of being able to evaluate much. Think back on your career- is someone sitting in the stands (or better yet, on TV) really going to have a basis to evaluate you? Ironically, if you go by "watching a team play" as the evaluation metric, the only guy that really pops out as "What the heck is that guy doing, he is an imbecile" is LSU's all time winningest coach- Les Miles. Of course, I would agree with you that at least watching them play would be a far better metric than predicting he won't do well because he was fast in the 80s and 90s... To answer your question directly- I saw them play in the Celebration Bowl. They looked like, a FCS football team. Since that's what they are, nothing stood out either way. I didn't see any lack of organization or any "This is going to be a dumpster fire" moments. I didn't see any indication that he and his staff were clueless, but their roster was so clearly bigger/stronger/faster that they had success despite they coaching staff. I think you can tell a lot about a coach's ability by watching a game. After seeing them multiple times, I wasn't impressed with Coach Prime's ability. They were very talented in comparison to their opponents. That was the positive. |
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Post by jg78 on May 31, 2023 16:13:24 GMT -6
I didn’t say he doesn’t have an understanding. Maybe he does. I am saying it hasn’t really been displayed as a coach or player. 1990s Deion might have been leading defensive meetings for all I know, but it appeared that pretty much his only job was shutting down one guy and he was richly blessed with the physical ability to do so.
But like others have said (and I have too) Deion’s ability to use his charisma and star power to sell the program and land top recruits is far more important to his success than his technical knowledge - now or 25 years ago.
Get good players, good assistants, and keep the program from running in the ditch. Pretty simple formula.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2023 18:28:47 GMT -6
I didn’t say he doesn’t have an understanding. Are you sure about that? I doubt Deion’s X’s and O’s acumen is as good as many high school coaches. I think he would be terrible as a coordinator. Do I think a lot of high school coaches around the country are more knowledgeable than Deion? Probably so. As a pure football coach, he’s probably going to be below average compared to other P5 coaches. I just don’t think he has the technical background of most of his peers. If Deion is successful, I think it will be because of his charisma and ability to recruit - not his technical knowledge of the game. I don’t think he would make a very good coordinator in a conference like the SEC. Those quotes sound an awful lot like someone saying "I don't think he has an understanding" And guess what. HE MIGHT NOT. My point through all of this, is that I think it is fairly crappy for others in the profession to prejudge someone else's abilities based on the fact that he was tremendously gifted with measurable athletic tools. And that is what I believe you (and others) are doing here. |
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Post by coachd5085 on May 31, 2023 18:49:13 GMT -6
I think the reason that many aren't commenting on that is that as experienced coaches many know that "seeing someone play" a few times (especially from a distance or on TV) doesn't really hit the threshold of being able to evaluate much. Think back on your career- is someone sitting in the stands (or better yet, on TV) really going to have a basis to evaluate you? Ironically, if you go by "watching a team play" as the evaluation metric, the only guy that really pops out as "What the heck is that guy doing, he is an imbecile" is LSU's all time winningest coach- Les Miles. Of course, I would agree with you that at least watching them play would be a far better metric than predicting he won't do well because he was fast in the 80s and 90s... To answer your question directly- I saw them play in the Celebration Bowl. They looked like, a FCS football team. Since that's what they are, nothing stood out either way. I didn't see any lack of organization or any "This is going to be a dumpster fire" moments. I didn't see any indication that he and his staff were clueless, but their roster was so clearly bigger/stronger/faster that they had success despite they coaching staff. I think you can tell a lot about a coach's ability by watching a game. After seeing them multiple times, I wasn't impressed with Coach Prime's ability. They were very talented in comparison to their opponents. That was the positive. Interesting. What do you believe can be gained other than some obvious things such as atrocious sideline organization or lack of discipline? |
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Post by jg78 on May 31, 2023 20:21:54 GMT -6
Yes.
What do you expect me to say on a message board? “I have never gotten on the chalk board with Deion and asked him a 1,000 questions to rate his football acumen. Therefore, I cannot comfortably speculate and give a worthless and uninformed opinion about it on an anonymous message board. It just wouldn’t be fair to him and the ten people following the thread.”
Because I don’t *think* Deion’s background (as both a player and a coach) qualifies him for a P5 job and that his charisma and star power (not his technical football knowledge) will be the driving force behind any success he has doesn’t mean he wasn’t schooling Nick Saban on the board between takes of Aflac commercials. So maybe he’s the king of the chalk board. I don’t know. I can’t rightfully say that he isn’t, just that I don’t see it from my limited perspective.
Like I said earlier, if any of us *knew* this stuff, we would make a fortune gambling. And if we only talked about things we “knew,” this would be a boring place.
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Post by CS on Jun 1, 2023 4:02:20 GMT -6
This thread being 5 pages now is proof of the prime effect. This year we may not see it but the national exposer alone will help him recruit better players whether he’s “fit” or not is irrelevant IMO.
Who the he!! Gave a sh!t about Colorado before he was hired?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 1, 2023 9:15:40 GMT -6
Yes. What do you expect me to say on a message board? On reddit, twitter, or any of the fanboy (and girl) boards...probably exactly what you have been saying. The type of stuff the drunk guy at the game yells from the stand or in the bar as expert opinion. But on a board comprised of (mostly) professional football coaches? Probably something a bit more reflective, with a bit more support to the opinion. Just me, but I see it as the difference between someone saying "You can't win in FBS running the triple, you need to do something modern" and someone saying "Schematically and fundamentally the triple can successfully be executed in an FBS league, but other factors such as recruiting, entertainment dollars, fan support etc probably present enough undesirable challenges that it isn't going to get the results" |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 1, 2023 9:29:49 GMT -6
This thread being 5 pages now is proof of the prime effect. This year we may not see it but the national exposer alone will help him recruit better players whether he’s “fit” or not is irrelevant IMO. Who the he!! Gave a sh!t about Colorado before he was hired? I don't think anyone still cares about Buffs football. The last 2 1/2 pages is coachd arguing with people and calling them racists for "dog whistles". |
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Jun 1, 2023 9:45:19 GMT -6
Seriously. No one even saw Jackson State play, but have all these opinions? I watched 3 of them last year and wasn't overly impressed either. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Glad I missed the last two pages of dialogue. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 1, 2023 10:00:40 GMT -6
I don't think anyone still cares about Buffs football. CU sold out its season tickets for the first time since 1999 CU sold out all the spots it made available for the Spring game -first time ever That spring game netted the Buffs athletic dept. over $300,000 in sales alone. Sales of officially licensed Colorado products are up 700 percent year-over-year since Sanders was first hired on Dec. 3 You call it "arguing". I would prefer to say I am just pointing out that some posters don't support any of their statements. Like I said, thats a twitter/reddit thing. I would hope that professional football coaches (current or former) on a site for exchanges between professional football coaches would be a bit more substantial in their comments. For the amount of threads complaining/mocking the "fan with a whistle" guys in the stands... some people need some mirrors. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 1, 2023 10:32:49 GMT -6
I don't think anyone still cares about Buffs football. CU sold out its season tickets for the first time since 1999 CU sold out all the spots it made available for the Spring game -first time ever That spring game netted the Buffs athletic dept. over $300,000 in sales alone. Sales of officially licensed Colorado products are up 700 percent year-over-year since Sanders was first hired on Dec. 3 You call it "arguing". I would prefer to say I am just pointing out that some posters don't support any of their statements. Like I said, thats a twitter/reddit thing. I would hope that professional football coaches (current or former) on a site for exchanges between professional football coaches would be a bit more substantial in their comments. For the amount of threads complaining/mocking the "fan with a whistle" guys in the stands... some people need some mirrors. You need a hobby besides picking arguments here. Look at your post history. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 1, 2023 10:38:18 GMT -6
CU sold out its season tickets for the first time since 1999 CU sold out all the spots it made available for the Spring game -first time ever That spring game netted the Buffs athletic dept. over $300,000 in sales alone. Sales of officially licensed Colorado products are up 700 percent year-over-year since Sanders was first hired on Dec. 3 You call it "arguing". I would prefer to say I am just pointing out that some posters don't support any of their statements. Like I said, thats a twitter/reddit thing. I would hope that professional football coaches (current or former) on a site for exchanges between professional football coaches would be a bit more substantial in their comments. For the amount of threads complaining/mocking the "fan with a whistle" guys in the stands... some people need some mirrors. You need a hobby besides picking arguments here. Look at your post history. Because your posts are different...how? People on this board don't seem to like being called out or shown that their comments are lacking logic/support. I can't help that. |
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Post by fantom on Jun 1, 2023 11:09:28 GMT -6
There are two sides to the recruiting coin with Coach Prime. You can bet that every rival recruiter will be giving Mom some version of, "As long as Junior stays out of trouble and works hard on the field and in the classroom we won't cut him".
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 1, 2023 11:14:29 GMT -6
You need a hobby besides picking arguments here. Look at your post history. Because your posts are different...how? People on this board don't seem to like being called out or shown that their comments are lacking logic/support. I can't help that. You are literally the only person on here I "argue" with. |
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Post by pitt1980 on Jun 1, 2023 11:26:06 GMT -6
I think what's Deion Sanders has done so far is roughly on par with Jim Harbaugh did going 29-6 over 3 seasons at University of San Diego. I think the team he's taking over is roughly on par with the 1-11 2006 Stanford team Harbaugh took over after those 3 years. Year 1 at Stanford, Harbaugh went 4-8, year 2, he went 5-7. (Year 3, 8-5, year 4, 12-1 and off to the NFL). If Deion Sanders goes 4-8 and then 5-7 over the next 2 years, what will the narrative around him be? My expectation off the bat are pretty low, if he can put together 3 recruiting classes as good as the one he put together on short notice this year (without losing large parts of them to the portal....). I expect by year 3 he'll have a pretty good team. Whether the narrative will let him keep recruiting at a high level if he doesn't have early success?  Time will tell, I do think that the challenge he's facing at CU is a different deal than the challenge he faced at JSU. |
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Post by carookie on Jun 1, 2023 11:26:07 GMT -6
This thread being 5 pages now is proof of the prime effect. This year we may not see it but the national exposer alone will help him recruit better players whether he’s “fit” or not is irrelevant IMO. Who the he!! Gave a sh!t about Colorado before he was hired? I don't think anyone still cares about Buffs football. The last 2 1/2 pages is coachd arguing with people and calling them racists for "dog whistles". I think the most pertinent underlying discussions going on are 'importance of playing career and ability on landing a job', 'impact of position played on general coaching ability', and 'theory of skills required to be successful in coaching'. |
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jun 1, 2023 11:30:36 GMT -6
I really hate to say this, but a lot of these negative comments that talk about his low football IQ, him only being a good player because of his athletic ability, and only getting the job because of his personality come off with some pretty negative racist undertones.
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Post by rsmith627 on Jun 1, 2023 11:43:48 GMT -6
I really hate to say this, but a lot of these negative comments that talk about his low football IQ, him only being a good player because of his athletic ability, and only getting the job because of his personality come off with some pretty negative racist undertones. I think the difference (at least for me this is the case) is that there is nothing remotely intriguing about Jeff Saturday. He was a reach, and I don't think anybody really thought that was a great idea. Prime brings a whole lot of personality, star power, and attention (this is part of why he got the job) and has an immense ability to create a lot of buzz. As for the comments here relevant to this particular thread about Prime, you're probably right. |
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jun 1, 2023 11:48:03 GMT -6
I really hate to say this, but a lot of these negative comments that talk about his low football IQ, him only being a good player because of his athletic ability, and only getting the job because of his personality come off with some pretty negative racist undertones. I think the difference (at least for me this is the case) is that there is nothing remotely intriguing about Jeff Saturday. He was a reach, and I don't think anybody really thought that was a great idea. Prime brings a whole lot of personality, star power, and attention (this is part of why he got the job) and has an immense ability to create a lot of buzz. As for the comments here relevant to this particular thread about Prime, you're probably right. I edited my original comment to delete the Saturday line because it was mentioned in the "Superstar Coaches" thread (I even commented on it). But not nearly with the same amount of vitriol IMO. |
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Post by coachdmyers on Jun 5, 2023 12:33:01 GMT -6
On a related note, can we all agree that Trent Dilfer is going to be a disaster for UAB?
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Post by fantom on Jun 5, 2023 12:42:45 GMT -6
On a related note, can we all agree that Trent Dilfer is going to be a disaster for UAB? Not me because if I could predict the future I'd be at a casino right now. |
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Post by blb on Jun 5, 2023 12:44:04 GMT -6
On a related note, can we all agree that Trent Dilfer is going to be a disaster for UAB? No. HS head coaches going to head coach at college level do not have a good record of success. But Dilfer is different. Give him some time. |
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