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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 14, 2016 16:16:47 GMT -6
The job of college and professional football coaches is not to be a babysitter or a father figure or a guidance counselor. It's to win football games, period. Everything they do is to affect that outcome. So, it's a balancing act. As long as a player is productive, the coaches, in some cases, are going to have to put up with shenanigans that they wouldn't overlook in less talented players. I could not disagree more. That is most certainly NOT how that the institutions we are talking about portray their head coaches. While I understand what you are saying (you are putting the reality of the situation on the table) the fact that the schools and the coaches THEMSELVES portray the coaches as part of the educational process, and as leaders/mentors/counselors and in some cases father figures is very hypocritical and gives validity to klaby 's frustrations. Ultimately what klaby is frustrated with is something that I have often said is the dirty little secret of college athletics that nobody discusses for fear of the quagmire of issues and heat that will fall on them : the "money" sports of college football and basketball are populated with entirely too many athletes who in no way, shape, or form belong in a university setting. They do not have the tools to nor in many cases the DESIRE to function in this environment. Obviously not every player can be FSU's Myron Rolle or Princeton's Bill Bradley, but having coached at two Div 1 (FCS) institutions the difference between the athletes participating in basketball/football and other sports are accurate to the stereotype. The question you pose is at the heart of klaby 's frustrations. He, as a LEO is understandably upset since many of his encounters with individuals are less than desirable. When discussing the accountability of LEOs keep that in mind. They are human. I think it is astounding how easily everyone (not you specifically) DEMANDS perfection from LEOs who make $35,00-$50,000 and work in a more stressful environment and make more split second decisions than a surgeon. Talk about accountablility...according to Dr. Barbara Starfield of Johns Hopkins there are approximately 225,000 deaths a year attributable to iatrogenic (relating to illness caused by medical exam or treatment) causes. |
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 17:37:13 GMT -6
I'll throw it right back coach....If they care they would teach them that their actions have consequences....and they aren't...miss class, ok we will still let you play...don't show up for meeting ok no problem your a starter...I mean really you need to tell a 19-20 year old man to make sure he has a pencil and paper....The military is also less expensive and they will not have their hands held and will learn how to be a man... I will bet you nobody is holding the hand of some kid who is on the border but doesn't play football...think for one second that these people would give two rips about these kids if they couldn't play football....keep them eligible so they can play and help us win, then who cares...I have my ring....what are they teaching, there will always be somebody there to help me get by because I can run with a ball....you think for one second you can miss work and keep your job! These are men, start treating them like men and they will start being men....keep holding their hands and I will be dealing with them very soon...and I frankly don't care one bit you can run with a ball, or how tough your life was.... The job of college and professional football coaches is not to be a babysitter or a father figure or a guidance counselor. It's to win football games, period. Everything they do is to affect that outcome. So, it's a balancing act. As long as a player is productive, the coaches, in some cases, are going to have to put up with shenanigans that they wouldn't overlook in less talented players. I also think that is why high school football coaches really shouldn't pay attention to what big-time colleges (and I think the JUCO in this documentary is a big-time college) are doing because the situations are completely different. At a big-time football factory, the coaches are only going to win championships by recruiting better talent than the competition. As I wrote earlier, that means the coaches are going to have to tolerate players with questionable character. In a high school, the coaches are not going to have anywhere near the number of head cases and egomaniacs. Maybe an occasional kid. But not a locker room full of them. And, as several others have pointed out, we only saw the real extreme kids on the EMCC team. My guess is that a lot of those kids are pretty boring (they go to class and are coachable) and didn't get any screen time as a result. You bring up Bob Ladouceur from De La Salle. If he would have been the HFC at EMCC and coached the same way he did at De La Salle, do you think he would have been as successful (in wins and championships) as Buddy Stephens? If Ladouceur's approach (which, according to you, is "not putting up with that kind of crap") is so effective, then why don't all big-time college and professional programs use it? De La Salle and EMCC have different missions. |
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 14, 2016 17:38:19 GMT -6
In full disclosure I am not a teacher, I am a retired Police Officer, and Former Marine, so my attitude toward bad behavior and decisions is different. YOU are responsible for what YOU do. Not your station in life, YOU. In the Corps we have general orders, there are 11 official orders….but all Marines know there are 13…..#13 is “He who F’s up must pay”….. I would be remiss if I didn't comment on this. You rail against a lack of accountability for these players yet you retired from an occupation that has well-documented issues with a lack of accountability. I'm sure that during your long career in long enforcement, you held your fellow officers' feet to the fire and reported them when they took advantage of their position and authority for personal gain. Let me guess your response...it never happened, right? You never witnessed a fellow officer abuse his power? <rollingmyeyes> I would be remiss if I didn't comment on this ^^^^, are you being serious with this post? So there is no "well-documented" issues with teachers and behavior with students, or how bout the teacher at my school who thought he was going home and from the bar and instead ended up in passed out at 3 am in front of the supers office. Or how about all the teacher/coaches at clinics just smashed off their a$$, and the list goes on. Because a guy is a retired cop you bring out the pot calling the kettle black... |
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 18:01:55 GMT -6
We're all doing all that we can for kids so let's stop this name-calling.
I've taught and coached at some pretty rough places. I couldn't even guess how many guys have been saved from being hard core a$$holes because they cared enough about football to avoid felonies until they were mature enough to get it themselves. We don't get them all but we get a lot.
Ms Wagner, in my book, is a hero. I have a standing marriage proposal for her but she can certainly do better.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 18:53:36 GMT -6
The job of college and professional football coaches is not to be a babysitter or a father figure or a guidance counselor. It's to win football games, period. Everything they do is to affect that outcome. So, it's a balancing act. As long as a player is productive, the coaches, in some cases, are going to have to put up with shenanigans that they wouldn't overlook in less talented players. I could not disagree more. That is most certainly NOT how that the institutions we are talking about portray their head coaches. While I understand what you are saying (you are putting the reality of the situation on the table) the fact that the schools and the coaches THEMSELVES portray the coaches as part of the educational process, and as leaders/mentors/counselors and in some cases father figures is very hypocritical and gives validity to klaby 's frustrations. Ultimately what klaby is frustrated with is something that I have often said is the dirty little secret of college athletics that nobody discusses for fear of the quagmire of issues and heat that will fall on them : the "money" sports of college football and basketball are populated with entirely too many athletes who in no way, shape, or form belong in a university setting. They do not have the tools to nor in many cases the DESIRE to function in this environment. Obviously not every player can be FSU's Myron Rolle or Princeton's Bill Bradley, but having coached at two Div 1 (FCS) institutions the difference between the athletes participating in basketball/football and other sports are accurate to the stereotype. The question you pose is at the heart of klaby 's frustrations. He, as a LEO is understandably upset since many of his encounters with individuals are less than desirable. When discussing the accountability of LEOs keep that in mind. They are human. I think it is astounding how easily everyone (not you specifically) DEMANDS perfection from LEOs who make $35,00-$50,000 and work in a more stressful environment and make more split second decisions than a surgeon. Talk about accountablility...according to Dr. Barbara Starfield of Johns Hopkins there are approximately 225,000 deaths a year attributable to iatrogenic (relating to illness caused by medical exam or treatment) causes. What? What difference does it make how these schools portray their head coaches? The reality is that these guys are hired to win. Everything else is secondary to that. I have no idea what you are trying to argue. Whenever some big-time coach talks about the value of education or building character, the entire world needs to execute a collective eyeroll. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 18:57:15 GMT -6
I would be remiss if I didn't comment on this. You rail against a lack of accountability for these players yet you retired from an occupation that has well-documented issues with a lack of accountability. I'm sure that during your long career in long enforcement, you held your fellow officers' feet to the fire and reported them when they took advantage of their position and authority for personal gain. Let me guess your response...it never happened, right? You never witnessed a fellow officer abuse his power? <rollingmyeyes> I would be remiss if I didn't comment on this ^^^^, are you being serious with this post? So there is no "well-documented" issues with teachers and behavior with students, or how bout the teacher at my school who thought he was going home and from the bar and instead ended up in passed out at 3 am in front of the supers office. Or how about all the teacher/coaches at clinics just smashed off their a$$, and the list goes on. Because a guy is a retired cop you bring out the pot calling the kettle black... Are any of those guys posting here about a lack of accountability in other professions? Point me to their posts and I will heap well-deserved scorn on them, as well. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 19:00:15 GMT -6
The job of college and professional football coaches is not to be a babysitter or a father figure or a guidance counselor. It's to win football games, period. Everything they do is to affect that outcome. So, it's a balancing act. As long as a player is productive, the coaches, in some cases, are going to have to put up with shenanigans that they wouldn't overlook in less talented players. I also think that is why high school football coaches really shouldn't pay attention to what big-time colleges (and I think the JUCO in this documentary is a big-time college) are doing because the situations are completely different. At a big-time football factory, the coaches are only going to win championships by recruiting better talent than the competition. As I wrote earlier, that means the coaches are going to have to tolerate players with questionable character. In a high school, the coaches are not going to have anywhere near the number of head cases and egomaniacs. Maybe an occasional kid. But not a locker room full of them. And, as several others have pointed out, we only saw the real extreme kids on the EMCC team. My guess is that a lot of those kids are pretty boring (they go to class and are coachable) and didn't get any screen time as a result. You bring up Bob Ladouceur from De La Salle. If he would have been the HFC at EMCC and coached the same way he did at De La Salle, do you think he would have been as successful (in wins and championships) as Buddy Stephens? If Ladouceur's approach (which, according to you, is "not putting up with that kind of crap") is so effective, then why don't all big-time college and professional programs use it? De La Salle and EMCC have different missions. Yes. That was the ENTIRE point of my post. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 14, 2016 19:32:47 GMT -6
I could not disagree more. That is most certainly NOT how that the institutions we are talking about portray their head coaches. While I understand what you are saying (you are putting the reality of the situation on the table) the fact that the schools and the coaches THEMSELVES portray the coaches as part of the educational process, and as leaders/mentors/counselors and in some cases father figures is very hypocritical and gives validity to klaby 's frustrations. Ultimately what klaby is frustrated with is something that I have often said is the dirty little secret of college athletics that nobody discusses for fear of the quagmire of issues and heat that will fall on them : the "money" sports of college football and basketball are populated with entirely too many athletes who in no way, shape, or form belong in a university setting. They do not have the tools to nor in many cases the DESIRE to function in this environment. Obviously not every player can be FSU's Myron Rolle or Princeton's Bill Bradley, but having coached at two Div 1 (FCS) institutions the difference between the athletes participating in basketball/football and other sports are accurate to the stereotype. The question you pose is at the heart of klaby 's frustrations. He, as a LEO is understandably upset since many of his encounters with individuals are less than desirable. When discussing the accountability of LEOs keep that in mind. They are human. I think it is astounding how easily everyone (not you specifically) DEMANDS perfection from LEOs who make $35,00-$50,000 and work in a more stressful environment and make more split second decisions than a surgeon. Talk about accountablility...according to Dr. Barbara Starfield of Johns Hopkins there are approximately 225,000 deaths a year attributable to iatrogenic (relating to illness caused by medical exam or treatment) causes. What? What difference does it make how these schools portray their head coaches? The reality is that these guys are hired to win. Everything else is secondary to that. I have no idea what you are trying to argue. Whenever some big-time coach talks about the value of education or building character, the entire world needs to execute a collective eyeroll. That is his point. THEY SAY they are doing it. They say it when they are recruiting the kids. They say it to the parents. They say it when they talk about how the players are "student-athletes" and not employees. I can see why someone would call them out and would be frustrated by it. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 19:40:05 GMT -6
What? What difference does it make how these schools portray their head coaches? The reality is that these guys are hired to win. Everything else is secondary to that. I have no idea what you are trying to argue. Whenever some big-time coach talks about the value of education or building character, the entire world needs to execute a collective eyeroll. That is his point. THEY SAY they are doing it. They say it when they are recruiting the kids. They say it to the parents. They say it when they talk about how the players are "student-athletes" and not employees. I can see why someone would call them out and would be frustrated by it. But no one really believes it. And if anyone does, that person is a rube. Seriously, I don't even know why it is so necessary to perpetrate this lie that big-time college football and basketball factories are anything but that. |
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klaby
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Post by klaby on Aug 14, 2016 19:46:45 GMT -6
Well I know this, when my son starts getting visits I will be asking every coach what their Coachhuey name is....and he will be avoiding 19delta, and fantom....
Like I said retired cop...current Chief of Campus Public Safety at a D3 school and I can assure all of you, EVERY coach on that campus is part of the education process and takes it very serious, and if they don't they will find themselves looking for a new job....
Pot out....
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 19:55:21 GMT -6
That is his point. THEY SAY they are doing it. They say it when they are recruiting the kids. They say it to the parents. They say it when they talk about how the players are "student-athletes" and not employees. I can see why someone would call them out and would be frustrated by it. But no one really believes it. And if anyone does, that person is a rube. Seriously, I don't even know why it is so necessary to perpetrate this lie that big-time college football and basketball factories are anything but that. Because sometimes the kids make it. |
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 20:01:57 GMT -6
Well I know this, when my son starts getting visits I will be asking every coach what their Coachhuey name is....and he will be avoiding 19delta, and fantom.... Like I said retired cop...current Chief of Campus Public Safety at a D3 school and I can assure all of you, EVERY coach on that campus is part of the education process and takes it very serious, and if they don't they will find themselves looking for a new job.... Pot out.... You're going to avoid me? Really? |
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 20:08:53 GMT -6
Well I know this, when my son starts getting visits I will be asking every coach what their Coachhuey name is....and he will be avoiding 19delta, and fantom.... Like I said retired cop...current Chief of Campus Public Safety at a D3 school and I can assure all of you, EVERY coach on that campus is part of the education process and takes it very serious, and if they don't they will find themselves looking for a new job.... Pot out.... You're going to avoid me? Really? d the more I think about it the more pissed I get. My neighborhood is considered a high crime place. My Neighbors are good people and we have each other's back. Crime might happen somewhere but not here. That's a goddam point of pride. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 20:09:53 GMT -6
Well I know this, when my son starts getting visits I will be asking every coach what their Coachhuey name is....and he will be avoiding 19delta, and fantom.... Like I said retired cop...current Chief of Campus Public Safety at a D3 school and I can assure all of you, EVERY coach on that campus is part of the education process and takes it very serious, and if they don't they will find themselves looking for a new job.... Pot out.... D3? By definition, that isn't a big-time college football factory. The coaches at your school have much more in common with high school coaches than they do with Urban Meyer. You can bet your a$$ that if the coaches at your school want to move up to higher levels of football, they will learn that the real job of college coaches is winning, not educating kids. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 20:13:28 GMT -6
But no one really believes it. And if anyone does, that person is a rube. Seriously, I don't even know why it is so necessary to perpetrate this lie that big-time college football and basketball factories are anything but that. Because sometimes the kids make it. Perhaps I am too cynical but I really don't think that any elite college coach really cares one way or another if their athletes graduate. |
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klaby
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Post by klaby on Aug 14, 2016 20:16:21 GMT -6
Fantom...I am pretty sure the missions of De la salle and EMCC are EXACTLY the same, educate students and prepare them for life....so yes my son will avoid you and anybody who has a WIN at all cost attitude, because again I live in the real world and I want a coach and a program that understands Football ends....and life lessons like, accountability, discipline, team work and sacrifice will take you further in life......
sorry...Pot out again...
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klaby
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Post by klaby on Aug 14, 2016 20:20:45 GMT -6
Well I know this, when my son starts getting visits I will be asking every coach what their Coachhuey name is....and he will be avoiding 19delta, and fantom.... Like I said retired cop...current Chief of Campus Public Safety at a D3 school and I can assure all of you, EVERY coach on that campus is part of the education process and takes it very serious, and if they don't they will find themselves looking for a new job.... Pot out.... D3? By definition, that isn't a big-time college football factory. The coaches at your school have much more in common with high school coaches than they do with Urban Meyer. You can bet your a$$ that if the coaches at your school want to move up to higher levels of football, they will learn that the real job of college coaches is winning, not educating kids. Hmm...Since when did a Community College in rural Miss. Become a "Big time" football factory?  This post is about a Community College program, not Alabama..... Pot out... |
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 20:22:38 GMT -6
Fantom...I am pretty sure the missions of De la salle and EMCC are EXACTLY the same, educate students and prepare them for life....so yes my son will avoid you and anybody who has a WIN at all cost attitude, because again I live in the real world and I want a coach and a program that understands Football ends....and life lessons like, accountability, discipline, team work and sacrifice will take you further in life...... sorry...Pot out again... I do NOT have a win at any cost attitude. I get guys before you do, |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 20:27:49 GMT -6
D3? By definition, that isn't a big-time college football factory. The coaches at your school have much more in common with high school coaches than they do with Urban Meyer. You can bet your a$$ that if the coaches at your school want to move up to higher levels of football, they will learn that the real job of college coaches is winning, not educating kids. Hmm...Since when did a Community College in rural Miss. Become a "Big time" football factory? This post is about a Community College program, not Alabama..... Pot out... Are you paying attention? What kinds of kids do you think are going to EMCC? It is the very definition of a football factory. |
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Post by fantom on Aug 14, 2016 20:32:20 GMT -6
Fantom...I am pretty sure the missions of De la salle and EMCC are EXACTLY the same, educate students and prepare them for life....so yes my son will avoid you and anybody who has a WIN at all cost attitude, because again I live in the real world and I want a coach and a program that understands Football ends....and life lessons like, accountability, discipline, team work and sacrifice will take you further in life...... sorry...Pot out again... . DLS is getting kids who understand discipline. EMCC has to teach discipline. With some of those guys you're starting at Day 1. That's why EMCC exits. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 20:32:37 GMT -6
Fantom...I am pretty sure the missions of De la salle and EMCC are EXACTLY the same, educate students and prepare them for life....so yes my son will avoid you and anybody who has a WIN at all cost attitude, because again I live in the real world and I want a coach and a program that understands Football ends....and life lessons like, accountability, discipline, team work and sacrifice will take you further in life...... sorry...Pot out again... Are you talking about EMCC the school or EMCC the football program? Because, like it or not, they are two separate entities. |
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klaby
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Post by klaby on Aug 14, 2016 20:35:45 GMT -6
19delta....so any place that wins is a "Big Time football factory"? not more than 10 coaches on this board knew who EMCC was until this post and show....so yes I am paying attention....wow...now CCs are Big Time....what next the Snoop league....
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 20:35:54 GMT -6
Fantom...I am pretty sure the missions of De la salle and EMCC are EXACTLY the same, educate students and prepare them for life....so yes my son will avoid you and anybody who has a WIN at all cost attitude, because again I live in the real world and I want a coach and a program that understands Football ends....and life lessons like, accountability, discipline, team work and sacrifice will take you further in life...... sorry...Pot out again... . DLS is getting kids who understand discipline. EMCC has to teach discipline. With some of those guys you're starting at Day 1. That's why EMCC exits. But beyond that... DLS kids are not necessarily going to DLS solely to play football. At EMCC many of those players were there ONLY to play football. That was literally the most important reason they were on campus. |
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Post by 19delta on Aug 14, 2016 20:39:43 GMT -6
19delta....so any place that wins is a "Big Time football factory"? not more than 10 coaches on this board knew who EMCC was until this post and show....so yes I am paying attention....wow...now CCs are Big Time....what next the Snoop league.... I guarantee you that every coach in the SEC knew about EMCC before this documentary came out. EMCC produced D-1 talent. The program is a football factory. Heck, that is a huge part of their recruiting pitch...come to EMCC for a year and you will get a D1 scholarship. Did you not watch the show? Good grief! |
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 14, 2016 21:55:24 GMT -6
That is his point. THEY SAY they are doing it. They say it when they are recruiting the kids. They say it to the parents. They say it when they talk about how the players are "student-athletes" and not employees. I can see why someone would call them out and would be frustrated by it. But no one really believes it. And if anyone does, that person is a rube. Seriously, I don't even know why it is so necessary to perpetrate this lie that big-time college football and basketball factories are anything but that. So they are liars. Why are you crucifying klaby for saying he doesn't respect liars? |
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Post by jlenwood on Aug 15, 2016 6:36:19 GMT -6
Everybody take a breath!!
I think the most glaring thing to pop from this show is that if you are a stud athlete, probably at a crappy school, you just get pushed along because of athletic ability. I think in episode 2 the recruiter from Ole Miss (I think) said something to the effect of the kid's athletic ability took precedence over academic responsibility, essentially saying he was allowed to skate thru school because he was a football player.
The fact that you have to have sub-titles is amazing to me. The fact that a college student would go to class with out a pencil or any paper is amazing to me. The fact that making the NFL is THE ONLY thought these kids have of ever being successful, with no other options, that is sad.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 15, 2016 6:39:02 GMT -6
But no one really believes it. And if anyone does, that person is a rube. Seriously, I don't even know why it is so necessary to perpetrate this lie that big-time college football and basketball factories are anything but that. So they are liars. Why are you crucifying klaby for saying he doesn't respect liars? I think you need to re-read his initial post. What I took issue with was the complete lack of context and gross oversimplifications of complex issues. Look...I'm not a Buddy Stephens fan. Read my initial posts in this thread. I think he is a bad guy and reflects poorly on the coaching profession. With that being said, he is a symptom, not the disease. I don't know what the solution is. There obviously are kids on college campuses who have no business being there as a student. They are not prepared academically or socially for the rigor and structure required of college students. And, given that they are 18,19,20 years old, they aren't going to change. Pretty much, by that point, you are who you are and it takes a mighty effort to break bad habits and affect positive change to the self. My opinion is that athletes like the ones featured in "Last Chance U" should simply become full-time paid employees of the university they attend. |
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Post by blb on Aug 15, 2016 7:18:34 GMT -6
I have not watched the show, don't even know when-where it's on, and based on what I've read here, I won't.
I am curious though - has there ever been any EMCC "graduates" make it to NFL?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 15, 2016 7:43:11 GMT -6
I have not watched the show, don't even know when-where it's on, and based on what I've read here, I won't. I am curious though - has there ever been any EMCC "graduates" make it to NFL? I don't know how many of these guys left EMCC with a degree, but here's a list from the EMCC website that lists guys who played professionally or went to 4-year schools after playing at EMCC: emccathletics.com/sports/fball/NextLevelAgain...the place is a football factory. There is no arguing that fact. |
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Post by blb on Aug 15, 2016 9:26:25 GMT -6
I have not watched the show, don't even know when-where it's on, and based on what I've read here, I won't. I am curious though - has there ever been any EMCC "graduates" make it to NFL? I don't know how many of these guys left EMCC with a degree, but here's a list from the EMCC website that lists guys who played professionally or went to 4-year schools after playing at EMCC: emccathletics.com/sports/fball/NextLevelAgain...the place is a football factory. There is no arguing that fact.
LeGarrette Blount - hmm. Explains a lot.
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This post is about a Community College program, not Alabama.....