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Post by coachcb on Jan 20, 2016 13:08:12 GMT -6
Honestly, guys, we've been dealing with this issue long before Crossfit came about... Before Crossfit, it was "fitness lifting" (i.e. lift to get "shredded"). Before that, it was Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding...
I've told this story a dozen times but I'll toss it out there because it's another perfect example of the struggle we all have with this.
When I first started coaching, I worked with a very talented OL from the time he was an 8th grader until he was a junior in high school; I just kept moving up the ladder with his team. The kid was a monster; 6'4'', 230lbs with a 5.0 forty at 15 years old. He was big, strong, fast and physical. He was getting letters of interest from FCS schools as a sophomore as he was a starting OL at a school with 2200 kids in it. He did the high school workouts with us for part of his freshman year and then just disappeared. I found out that his folks were paying for him to see a personal trainer over at the local Gold's Gym. The trainer had him on a bodybuilding program and a "diet" because, according to his BMI, he was "overweight"...
Long story short, I could never get the kid back into our weight room. He still started for us as he was athletic but he went from being an all-conference OT his sophomore year to a middle-of-the-pack player by his senior year. He still had walk-on offers from FCS schools his senior year but he decided he didn't want to play college football because he "didn't want to get fat"... But here's the real kicker; he was still chubby after all of those sessions with the personal trainer. He just happened to have athletic ability which is what kept him his starting spot; he was our second best OL so he got the nod.
This is just a battle you can't win. Whether it's Crossfit, bodybuilding, WHATEVER... You will always have kids that would rather look like an MMA fighter than a thick, strong, powerful athlete. We don't live in a society that idolizes muscle and strength any more.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 13:32:38 GMT -6
Honestly, guys, we've been dealing with this issue long before Crossfit came about... Before Crossfit, it was "fitness lifting" (i.e. lift to get "shredded"). Before that, it was Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding... I've told this story a dozen times but I'll toss it out there because it's another perfect example of the struggle we all have with this. When I first started coaching, I worked with a very talented OL from the time he was an 8th grader until he was a junior in high school; I just kept moving up the ladder with his team. The kid was a monster; 6'4'', 230lbs with a 5.0 forty at 15 years old. He was big, strong, fast and physical. He was getting letters of interest from FCS schools as a sophomore as he was a starting OL at a school with 2200 kids in it. He did the high school workouts with us for part of his freshman year and then just disappeared. I found out that his folks were paying for him to see a personal trainer over at the local Gold's Gym. The trainer had him on a bodybuilding program and a "diet" because, according to his BMI, he was "overweight"... Long story short, I could never get the kid back into our weight room. He still started for us as he was athletic but he went from being an all-conference OT his sophomore year to a middle-of-the-pack player by his senior year. He still had walk-on offers from FCS schools his senior year but he decided he didn't want to play college football because he "didn't want to get fat"... But here's the real kicker; he was still chubby after all of those sessions with the personal trainer. He just happened to have athletic ability which is what kept him his starting spot; he was our second best OL so he got the nod. This is just a battle you can't win. Whether it's Crossfit, bodybuilding, WHATEVER... You will always have kids that would rather look like an MMA fighter than a thick, strong, powerful athlete. We don't live in a society that idolizes muscle and strength any more. But, to your credit, you didn't hamstring the team by benching the kid. I'm assuming the team was better with the kid playing than without the kid playing? Or is that not a safe assumption? You did say he was the team's 2nd best O-lineman.
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Post by fbs on Jan 20, 2016 13:32:42 GMT -6
there are many problems with this, but the one I see the most is allowing a culture to be created that says that someone else knows what's best for your kids and knows better than you. while I'm by no means claiming that there aren't people on this earth that know better about this than I do, I absolutely know how to run a weight program as it relates to football. I don't let even one kid go out on his own, because one becomes two and two becomes four and so on and so on, and before too long you've lost the handle on your own program because it's now a known "fact" among your kids that you don't know as much about this as someone else. A lot of times this happens in affluent areas where people think that if they pay for something it's better, a la select baseball, aau basketball etc. when in fact all they've done is pay someone to tell them what they want to hear. Do you think that these private coaches are jumping clean into them when they don't try their best? Not a chance, because they know they'll run their business away. that being said, I have been a part of programs that hired companies to come and run summer workouts for their specific programs. football was tailored to football kids and baseball to baseball kids and the like. I have no issue with that because it was done by the program with the success of the program, not the individual, in mind.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 13:39:01 GMT -6
I don't need to stick my foot in a wood chipper to know it's not a good idea. I am having a hard time understanding why some of you guys simply don't grasp that there are lots of guys running high school weight rooms who don't have any business doing so. And those kids are much better off training somewhere else. No amount of "team bonding" and all that crap will overcome some guy who doesn't know what he is doing. Totally valid point, but for an entirely different discussion. This isn't about who runs a better program. This is about allowing, or at least fighting with, kids who want to forego their own team's workouts to do a workout on their own. Our HC is constantly telling us assitants, in jest, that he "hates them all the same." If you let a kid miss for Crossfit, you have to let him miss for Yoga, Jazzercise, Spinning, TRX and Bootcamp. All of those are great workouts, but all are going to take away from the team. To make things easier and more consistent, no one can miss. We work with and around other sports, activities, tests, prom, family vacations, etc. But no one gets a pass to freely miss the workout altogether. Crossfit is a very polarizing topic, but it's not really the issue here. Crossfit has expanded on workout principles that we all use, on some level, in our own programs. But you cant sell or market good techniques, so Crossfit expanded on certain principles to make the brand their own. There are very well-run gyms, as well as some who teach very questionable techniques. Your argument would therefore apply to any gym or trainer a kid wants to work out with. But that's an asinine, semantical argument neither one of us would benefit from having. My opinion is that under ideal circumstances, high school football players shouldn't do Crossfit and should train with their teammates. But if they don't train with their teammates or they choose to do Crossfit (or some other workout program), they are still going to play if they are the best at their position.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 20, 2016 13:46:09 GMT -6
Every gripe y'all have, I have also.
But I tell my team. I will tell dads. Educate your team. Tell them to do crossfit when they are fat 30/40 year olds. Tell them it hurts them athletically. It is the smaller, slower, weaker program.
Tell them the trainers won't push them as hard. Tell they are taking their money. Tell them all your actual reasons. Tell them to look it all up. Research it. Whatever.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 13:47:55 GMT -6
Another anedote:
About 10 years ago, I was coaching at a place and I ran the weight room. One of our players was a kid named "Billy". Billy was about 6-1, 225 and he loved to lift. Hands down, was the strongest kid on the team.
But he didn't do our workout. He did his own thing. And when kids and parents would complain that it wasn't fair that Billy got to do his own thing, I would tell them, "when you put up the numbers that Billy puts up, I will let you do your own thing, too."
I think what it comes down to is that you don't treat kids equally. That's just lazy coaching. It's far better to treat kids fairly. In Billy's case, to treat him equally would have been a disservice to him and we would have run a good kid who was a heck of a player out. Instead, we treated him fairly and he ended up being a heck of a good player for us.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 20, 2016 14:05:24 GMT -6
"Nothing is so unequal as the equal treatment of unequal people."
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Post by coachcb on Jan 20, 2016 16:25:15 GMT -6
Honestly, guys, we've been dealing with this issue long before Crossfit came about... Before Crossfit, it was "fitness lifting" (i.e. lift to get "shredded"). Before that, it was Arnold's Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding... I've told this story a dozen times but I'll toss it out there because it's another perfect example of the struggle we all have with this. When I first started coaching, I worked with a very talented OL from the time he was an 8th grader until he was a junior in high school; I just kept moving up the ladder with his team. The kid was a monster; 6'4'', 230lbs with a 5.0 forty at 15 years old. He was big, strong, fast and physical. He was getting letters of interest from FCS schools as a sophomore as he was a starting OL at a school with 2200 kids in it. He did the high school workouts with us for part of his freshman year and then just disappeared. I found out that his folks were paying for him to see a personal trainer over at the local Gold's Gym. The trainer had him on a bodybuilding program and a "diet" because, according to his BMI, he was "overweight"... Long story short, I could never get the kid back into our weight room. He still started for us as he was athletic but he went from being an all-conference OT his sophomore year to a middle-of-the-pack player by his senior year. He still had walk-on offers from FCS schools his senior year but he decided he didn't want to play college football because he "didn't want to get fat"... But here's the real kicker; he was still chubby after all of those sessions with the personal trainer. He just happened to have athletic ability which is what kept him his starting spot; he was our second best OL so he got the nod. This is just a battle you can't win. Whether it's Crossfit, bodybuilding, WHATEVER... You will always have kids that would rather look like an MMA fighter than a thick, strong, powerful athlete. We don't live in a society that idolizes muscle and strength any more. But, to your credit, you didn't hamstring the team by benching the kid. I'm assuming the team was better with the kid playing than without the kid playing? Or is that not a safe assumption? You did say he was the team's 2nd best O-lineman. Yup, he was still a solid OL and earned his starting spot. But, we would have benched him if he was the 6th best OL.. I've gone back and forth with this for years.. I know that there are good coaches who will bench a kid that doesn't lift with the team and I've been tempted on many occasions. But, the kid earns his starting spot during the season and it just hurts the team if you try to lay down ultimatums. I have coached several kids over the years that lost their starting spot because they chose a commercial gym over the team and the players underneath them passed them on the depth chart. However, I will say that I feel that his lack of participation in our off-season training hurt the team as a whole. We had another OT that was All-State and we would have been a dominating force if this other kid had reached his full potential in our S&C program instead of getting slower and weaker.
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 20, 2016 16:57:12 GMT -6
And that's the gist of it all. We can push as hard as possible to get our teams totally committed to strength training and we know how good we can be if we have TOTAL buy in. The hardest thing is knowing you didn't get them all or even nearly enough and then just coaching your a$$ off when the season starts and trying to accept it. My competitiveness to win is ridiculous and it is VERY hard to accept whatever we ended up getting while knowing what we could have been. I've been on both ends and everything between. I usually know within a game or 2 how we will do by the first week of practice. Tough to coach when you know you are poorly prepared, possibly through no fault of your own.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 20, 2016 20:28:29 GMT -6
I think there are several different issues in this thread. One is having players train outside of your direct instruction, another is the use of CROSSFIT as their training protocol.
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Post by fantom on Jan 20, 2016 22:23:16 GMT -6
I think there are several different issues in this thread. One is having players train outside of your direct instruction, another is the use of CROSSFIT as their training protocol. I think that's true. We've never had a guy want to leave our program for Crossfit but we have had guys want to skip strength training for commercial speed training. We compromised and let them leave early once a week (Philosophically, we take the non-mandatory stuff seriously). In every case it backfired on the kid. Without fail, each was a FB who thought he should be a TB. They weren't as strong or physical as they could have been and, unbelievably, did not change their 4.8 to a 4.5 and become viable TB's.
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Post by bookoo2323 on Jan 20, 2016 23:49:04 GMT -6
Encourage them to lift with the team and if they do a little cross fit after, what's the harm. In my experience -I think those over weight kids who are too slow to get out of their own way benefit more from Crossfit than most programs. Be open minded, most of your opponents probably are having trouble getting kids to lift, your kids just want to do barbell lifts in a green gym- it could be worse
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 21, 2016 3:07:38 GMT -6
The point is, if youre not going to buy into the weight program designed or supported by the HC< then why should anyone assume you will buy into your assignment on offense or defense or special teams? Are we going to leave that open to the kids as well? That's a ridiculous slippery slope. If a kid doesn't do the job he is coached to do, that clearly is grounds for not playing him. That's not what we are talking about here. If a kid trains by himself and comes in and meets the coach's expectations, he still is going to get benched? How many of you guys honestly don't play a kid who is the best at his position simply because he didn't train with the team? Again...we aren't talking about a bad kid. Kid shows up to practice, works hard, does his job the way he is coached, follows team rules, is s good teammate. Kid is also a great athlete but just didn't lift with the team. You really aren't going to play that kid? Lets be clear. The best players who can be trusted are on the field. Period.
If a kid rarely shows for lifts because he is a multi sport athlete, he may well be more talented than the kids who are coming to workouts. We have that frequently. That's completely different than a kid who SNUBS the program (you specifically said that the kid wasn't going to workouts because the coach didn't know what he was doing) and a kid with that attitude doesn't trust the coach and will most likely not trust the coach when it comes to Xs and Os, playing time, positions and responsibilities and so on.
I don't know if you are a head coach or have ever been a head coach, I can tell you that its 99.99999999 % about psychology and relationships with these kids. NO TRUST= NO RELATIONSHIP
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Post by CS on Jan 21, 2016 4:26:04 GMT -6
I think there are several different issues in this thread. One is having players train outside of your direct instruction, another is the use of CROSSFIT as their training protocol. It's what some experts call a hybrid thread. Pretty sure I heard Nick Saban address it at a clinic once
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Post by 19delta on Jan 21, 2016 5:30:43 GMT -6
That's a ridiculous slippery slope. If a kid doesn't do the job he is coached to do, that clearly is grounds for not playing him. That's not what we are talking about here. If a kid trains by himself and comes in and meets the coach's expectations, he still is going to get benched? How many of you guys honestly don't play a kid who is the best at his position simply because he didn't train with the team? Again...we aren't talking about a bad kid. Kid shows up to practice, works hard, does his job the way he is coached, follows team rules, is s good teammate. Kid is also a great athlete but just didn't lift with the team. You really aren't going to play that kid? Lets be clear. The best players who can be trusted are on the field. Period.
If a kid rarely shows for lifts because he is a multi sport athlete, he may well be more talented than the kids who are coming to workouts. We have that frequently. That's completely different than a kid who SNUBS the program (you specifically said that the kid wasn't going to workouts because the coach didn't know what he was doing) and a kid with that attitude doesn't trust the coach and will most likely not trust the coach when it comes to Xs and Os, playing time, positions and responsibilities and so on.
I don't know if you are a head coach or have ever been a head coach, I can tell you that its 99.99999999 % about psychology and relationships with these kids. NO TRUST= NO RELATIONSHIP
I am with you up to the point that if the coach says "Jump", the kid is supposed to unquestioningly say, "How high?" Just because a guy has the title "Coach" before his last name doesn't make him infallible. And I disagree with you that if a coach is full of crap and a kid recognized that, that kid is untrustworthy or a cancer or a bad teammate. I think the disconnect between me and you is that what I am saying...my experiences with seeing poorly-run weight rooms with coaches who didn't do a good job...that's just not possible where you coach. You obviously take great pride in running a great weight room where the kids have an awesome experience so, for you, it is unfathomable that kids would want to train somewhere else. And really...that's the ideal. That's what all of us should be working for. And, at the end of the day, if the best kid plays regardless of where or how he trained, I guess that's all that matters.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 21, 2016 6:34:08 GMT -6
We test players. Put the onus on the test and the results.
We go out of our way to recognize and reward:
attendance improvement performance leadership
we use helmet stickers, tee shirts, trophies and certificates (and captain status) as incentives and rewards.
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Post by rwb32497 on Jan 21, 2016 7:01:01 GMT -6
We have a kid here that is a 5'11 212 lb Soph. He has maxes of: Bench 415, Squat 485, and a Power Clean of 285 and he is a really good athlete. He plays Defensive line for me. As a sophomore he is the second strongest kid on our team. He absolutely crushes the weight room every single day.
The problem is, this past summer the kid showed up to 5 workouts all summer long. I was pissed. I was convinced that I was gonna leave him down on the JV team. He came into camp in great shape and did did a lot of extra work during the school year though. Well, we had some things happen with injuries and such so he ended up starting 6 games for me and had a terrific year.
The kid loves body building and constantly post videos of himself on social media lifting and flexing. I really think he may pursue the bodybuilding avenue after his playing days are over. There is no doubt the kid lifted all summer long. Obviously I would prefer he come to our summer sessions but he is gonna play for me if he is the best I got. At this point I would love to have 11 of him on our team.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 21, 2016 9:30:47 GMT -6
I think the parents and the players need to understand something.
You offer your year around program to help them. Its for them.
secondly, you value your program, that's why its the program you have in place. you hang your hat on something and you evaluate it and you evaluate your participants.
third, those players that are involved in your program and are better than those who are not, will play over those that are not. kids who do not participate are difficult to evaluate.
We look to replace the ones we can replace as soon as we can replace them if they have not bought in. we don't replace a kid to punish him or punish the team, we replace a kid to reward the kids who buy in and thus help the program grow.
Ultimately, when its even between two kids...one who is coached up all year around and evaluated all year long and the other who disappears like a ghost in the off season....the kid who you have come to know and love and respect by seeing him every day, evaluating every day and the kid who has built the bond with his teammates, the one who the others have come to respect...that kid is going to get the nod.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 21, 2016 9:49:11 GMT -6
We have a kid here that is a 5'11 212 lb Soph. He has maxes of: Bench 415, Squat 485, and a Power Clean of 285 and he is a really good athlete. He plays Defensive line for me. As a sophomore he is the second strongest kid on our team. He absolutely crushes the weight room every single day. The problem is, this past summer the kid showed up to 5 workouts all summer long. I was pissed. I was convinced that I was gonna leave him down on the JV team. He came into camp in great shape and did did a lot of extra work during the school year though. Well, we had some things happen with injuries and such so he ended up starting 6 games for me and had a terrific year. The kid loves body building and constantly post videos of himself on social media lifting and flexing. I really think he may pursue the bodybuilding avenue after his playing days are over. There is no doubt the kid lifted all summer long. Obviously I would prefer he come to our summer sessions but he is gonna play for me if he is the best I got. At this point I would love to have 11 of him on our team. Coach, You have a soph that weighs 212 pounds and he benches 415!!!!!! Did you type that correctly? Was that a true max or something projected. I have coached some super strong kids. The most I have ever had is two seniors that benched 405. They were both huge, seniors, and one was 2nd team All-SEC as a center and the other one won the entire state of Alabama strength competition breaking records. Next, you had a kid that benches 415 and is the second strongest kid on your team and he only started 6 games because other kids got hurt? You thought about leaving him on the JV??? Y'all must be freaking loaded. I mean no offense here and I hope I am wrong, but I would literally bet my house that kid is on roids.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 21, 2016 9:49:14 GMT -6
I think that's an important point, one of the biggest things I'm looking for as a coach is consistency. I want to be able to predict what my players are going to do, it makes adjusting things and reaching them clearly a lot easier.
It's hard (not impossible) to build that with a kid who is around part time. If the competition between two players is very close, I'm going to lean toward the guy that I'm more comfortable with and who I feel I can predict how he's going to react to things. That's much more likely to be the kid who was around all off season.
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Post by bookoo2323 on Jan 21, 2016 9:49:18 GMT -6
The off season program shouldn't stress you out this much. Your stickers, t shirts should be enough. Threatening playing time and all that is against the rules. Ignore the kid, if people ask if why he's not there- tell the it's not about who's not here but who is here! Good lord the kid is lifting not playing video games!
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Post by silkyice on Jan 21, 2016 9:53:48 GMT -6
The off season program shouldn't stress you out this much. Your stickers, t shirts should be enough. Threatening playing time and all that is against the rules. Ignore the kid, if people ask if why he's not there- tell the it's not about who's not here but who is here! Good lord the kid is lifting not playing video games! I understand what you are saying. But in my opinion, the single greatest factor of our team's success and an individuals ability to perform at his maximum level and maximize his opportunities is the weight room.
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Post by joelee on Jan 21, 2016 9:59:43 GMT -6
Our off season is about: brainwashing, team building, toughness, and putting sweat in the bank for later.
Without it we wouldn't be near as good as we are. Johhny gets none of that doing cross fit somewhere else. Its not about the activity itself its the program we have.
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2016 10:01:15 GMT -6
Never heard this before as an excuse to miss off season weights. Anybody hear this one before? If so, what did you say to parent and kid? Remember I cant tell a kid it is mandatory but we all know it is.
Tell him (them?) he is expected to workout-lift with the Team.
If he wants to do more beyond that, it's up to him (them?) so long as he doesn't burn himself out or come into the season injured.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 21, 2016 10:18:02 GMT -6
And, at the end of the day, if the best kid plays regardless of where or how he trained, I guess that's all that matters. I disagree here. Agree that if the kid is on the team, then the best should play regardless of where or how he trained. I agree with that. But I do not agree that's all that matters. I want what is absolutely best for my program and the players. And if these other programs aren't making them the best they can be, then they suffer and the team suffers. That plus, it is still better for the team if they all workout together under the supervision of the coach. Team morale, intensity, accountability, chemistry, trust, doing the right lifts, making sure it is actually done, etc.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 21, 2016 10:18:44 GMT -6
Our off season is about: brainwashing, team building, toughness, and putting sweat in the bank for later. Without it we wouldn't be near as good as we are. Johhny gets none of that doing cross fit somewhere else. Its not about the activity itself its the program we have. I want to like this, but not sure about the brainwashing comment. LOL
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 21, 2016 10:19:42 GMT -6
I also think it is important to keep in mind here that culture and expectations are different from place to place when we start judging what other coaches should or shouldn't stress about. In some places..9 wins and losing in the 2nd round of the playoffs is underachieving. In others, it is a historic season for the school.
Also, while I understand the "If the kid is one of the best 11 he should play regardless" sentiment, I do think it is also a valid philosophy that the PROGRAM is bigger than the team, and there is a potential "copycat" issue with having talented kids who don't train. It is not unreasonable for a 15/16 year old knucklehead to NOT understand that he has to train to be as good as someone else who doesn't. Also, (and I know this first hand) I think it is of the utmost importance to impress upon the athletes that their job is to be better than the OTHER schools, not just best 11 on their own team.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 21, 2016 10:34:52 GMT -6
We don't live in a society that idolizes muscle and strength any more. I will say, I think the pendulum is swinging back in that direction though. With guys like the Rock gaining in popularity I see more HS kids thinking it's cool to be stronger than it is to wear women's jeans. Part of that is in thanks to Crossfit oddly enough. You just have to make sure they know that Crossfit will not get you looking like the Rock.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 21, 2016 10:47:41 GMT -6
The off season program shouldn't stress you out this much. Your stickers, t shirts should be enough. Threatening playing time and all that is against the rules. Ignore the kid, if people ask if why he's not there- tell the it's not about who's not here but who is here! Good lord the kid is lifting not playing video games! I don't view Crossfit as lifting. You will not get stronger (in an increased power sense) doing it. If a kid said he was skipping lifting to do Insanity would you be cool with that?
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2016 10:53:08 GMT -6
It would be really hard to justify not playing a kid if he was best at his position because of what he didn't do in the Off-Season.
The coaches would know it, he'd know it, the other kids would know it.
And what would you tell AD when he-she asked why he wasn't playing - "Because he didn't work out with team in the Off-Season"?
That'd go over like a turd in a punch bowl.
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