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Post by WingTheT on Jan 19, 2016 22:06:22 GMT -6
Maybe get some of the Crossfit chicks to train in your weightroom...they are smoking hot! Glad I'm not the only one that thinks the same! Now where do I sign up??
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 2:43:11 GMT -6
Never heard this before as an excuse to miss off season weights. Anybody hear this one before? If so, what did you say to parent and kid? Remember I cant tell a kid it is mandatory but we all know it is. If he wants to play for your team, he lifts with your team. If he'd rather do Crossfit, then he can join the Crossfit's football team. The two workouts are mutually exclusive. Crossfit's inappropriateness for football aside, lifting with the team is as necessary for cohesion as anything else. If you can be on the team and not do off-season workouts, what else do you not have to do? If i dont have to lift, then why would I go to study hall? Why would I go to practice? Why would I come to school? That is what I tell the kids and parents. Of course, workouts aren't mandatory. Kids are going to miss, of course. But to make a conscious decision to miss in lieu of something else shows a reflection of priorities. I have, and will continue to, tell that to both kids and parents every time. Once again...I just don't get this attitude. So a kid chooses to train somewhere else. He comes in big, strong, and fast. He is the best player at his position. You aren't going to play that kid? I just don't get being hardheaded for the sake of being hardheaded. A kid who wants to train somewhere else is not necessarily a bad kid. Why paint yourself into a corner? Why not let it play out on the field? If the kid who trains somewhere else comes in and isn't very good and gets beat out, then the problem has taken care of itself. On the other hand, if the kid comes in big, fast, and strong and is the best player at his position, isn't that what you should want as a coach?
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 2:47:57 GMT -6
I, like everybody else, has struggled with kids and weight room participation. I used to be the "ultimatum guy" but that has given mixed results. With that said, I try to find compromises I can live with and if the kid WON'T meet me halfway then I simply find his position competition in the weight room and BUST MY A$$ working with that kid & I don't hide it from anybody. They know what I'm doing. I did this starting about 3 weeks ago and the kid who wasn't showing started showing. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong but it makes me feel better about the situation. This is what coaching is all about. It's not about a cookie cutter approach where you treat every kid the same. That's just lazy and uncreative. Good coaches know what buttons to push to motivate individual players.
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 20, 2016 5:45:25 GMT -6
I mentioned this before but I had a kid (2 years ago) who just was stretched in too many directions. He wondered what to do if he only had minimal time. I told him to squat as often as he can. He ended up squatting so much he went from @ 315 junior year to 465 senior year. He was good junior year but he was fantastic senior year (all state and helped us get to states) If I had been a "hardliner" like I was way back in my early days (30 years ago), the story would no doubt be a lot different.
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 20, 2016 5:46:05 GMT -6
Would I love for him to lift with us??? Of Course.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 5:56:03 GMT -6
We also suffer from a "more is better" and "private is better" and "more expensive is better" kind of thinking from those that wish to spend money on their training rather than train for free with the team.
This is more common, from my experience, at a private school where families are often highly involved with personal training instructions, personal chefs and so on.
Again, nobody that has gone that route has shown up and broken records that have been set in our small weight room by guys who are involved in our program.
I understand that some parents will never trust a common school teacher/coach but would rather pay for the glitz and glammore of the speed camp/personal training guru.
In my experience, those kids struggle with basic squats, deadlifts and cleans. They can do burpees and pushups like nobodys business though.
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Post by rosey65 on Jan 20, 2016 6:44:27 GMT -6
If he wants to play for your team, he lifts with your team. If he'd rather do Crossfit, then he can join the Crossfit's football team. The two workouts are mutually exclusive. Crossfit's inappropriateness for football aside, lifting with the team is as necessary for cohesion as anything else. If you can be on the team and not do off-season workouts, what else do you not have to do? If i dont have to lift, then why would I go to study hall? Why would I go to practice? Why would I come to school? That is what I tell the kids and parents. Of course, workouts aren't mandatory. Kids are going to miss, of course. But to make a conscious decision to miss in lieu of something else shows a reflection of priorities. I have, and will continue to, tell that to both kids and parents every time. Once again...I just don't get this attitude. So a kid chooses to train somewhere else. He comes in big, strong, and fast. He is the best player at his position. You aren't going to play that kid? I just don't get being hardheaded for the sake of being hardheaded. A kid who wants to train somewhere else is not necessarily a bad kid. Why paint yourself into a corner? Why not let it play out on the field? If the kid who trains somewhere else comes in and isn't very good and gets beat out, then the problem has taken care of itself. On the other hand, if the kid comes in big, fast, and strong and is the best player at his position, isn't that what you should want as a coach? A kid can lift wherever he wants, with whomever he wants, under whatever fitness genre he wants to follow. We have organized football workouts in the offseason. If the kid wants to play football, he needs to be at those workouts. Do they all make it regularly? Of course not. Do we have good kids with bad attendance? Yes. Is getting the the periodic attenders to be at practice a major focus during the offseason? Yes. This isn't me being hard-headed. We have kids who play other sports, both for the school and for clubs. We schedule their workout regimen around whatever they need done. The 4 lacrosse kids dont do heavy squats the day before a game, the same with the sprinters before a track meet. The throwers dont do a big bench workout when they have a meet. It's not about doing "my" workout. The kids in other sports and activities are showing dedication for football by trying to fit all of their interests and activities into a day. The problem, as I interpreted the OP, is the kid who skips team activities in order to do his own thing. I know that teams all function differently, but if you allow kids to pick and choose the activities they participate in, where does that stop? Can they skip study hall if they have good grades? Can they skip conditioning if they are fast?
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Post by spreadpowero on Jan 20, 2016 7:36:12 GMT -6
Tell them, we don't play at crossfit. Also, we take role of who is at weight training. If they go to crossfit, count them absent. If they are fighting it out with another player for a starting job, pick the other player.
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Post by blb on Jan 20, 2016 7:47:56 GMT -6
Bottom line in HS we can't control them like college kids on scholarships.
In our state you cannot use Off-Season as criteria for team membership. In fact one Football coach was suspended for merely taking attendance in Summer (after parents complained).
Personal trainers, Speed Camps, and the like have sprung up as people are trying to make money off kids or perhaps more accurately gullible parents. It's just part of what HS coaches have to deal with now.
Once practice began, for us attendance was mandatory. If they missed three they cut themselves. That was rarely a problem. We did testing and told kids that where they were on INITIAL depth chart would be based in part on that and our three-day Summer camp end of July.
After that, best players played, regardless.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 8:08:09 GMT -6
btw, you gentlemen would do well to study some sports psychology studies on selfish players and how they perform. The findings will surprise you.
there is evidence that players become selfish by being superior first and foremost.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 8:29:45 GMT -6
btw, you gentlemen would do well to study some sports psychology studies on selfish players and how they perform. The findings will surprise you. there is evidence that players become selfish by being superior first and foremost. So if players choose to train on their own, they are being selfish?
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Post by silkyice on Jan 20, 2016 8:34:40 GMT -6
btw, you gentlemen would do well to study some sports psychology studies on selfish players and how they perform. The findings will surprise you. there is evidence that players become selfish by being superior first and foremost. I don't doubt this at all. We have all coached selfish players and they usually are good. Of course some aren't good - they are just selfish. The best ones are the ones who are superior, selfish, but get it. I have been fortunate enough to coach a few of those.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jan 20, 2016 9:02:31 GMT -6
Never heard this before as an excuse to miss off season weights. Anybody hear this one before? If so, what did you say to parent and kid? Remember I cant tell a kid it is mandatory but we all know it is. What are your main offseason program goal? Is it to get big/fast/strong? Camaraderie? Gain control of a team falling apart? This is a serious question to ask yourself...it will shape your answer to your problem. All you can do is educate the young man and his family- don't demonize crossfit. It's a PHENOMENAL fitness concept that (if you care about people and their health) is changing peoples' lives. Not the workouts per se but the way it creates a community within the gym. Is it what a 14-18 year old needs to do to get better at football? No, unless it's their only option. Let him make decisions for himself- guide him and his family but let them make decisions and suffer (or thrive) on the consequences. The message will be loud and clear when he either is a starter or not. In our program the best player plays- this includes character and work-ethic. The off-season does not dictate whether you will be a starter or not- it only allows you to closed or widen the gap between you and your competitors/teammates. If NOBODY showed up to the weight room would you cancel the season? We make periodic strength goals for our kids. They must meet them or they get hounded by me. I don't care if they are playing basketball/wrestling/track- they show up for testing and show us they've been doing work. I have 2 kids who train outside the program- one is a turd and the other is a young stud. The young stud works out with a trainer that I know personally and posts videos of his training to my facebook 3 times per week. He is getting stronger/faster...although he could be doing better with us. The trainer works with this kid and his entire family- it's kinda their "thing" or family time. He's got no father (dies of heroin OD) and needs that 1v1 time with a guy. It's the best thing for him. With that said, kids training outside our facility is the least of our problems (and yours too I would bet). Rather than focus on him spend your energy chasing kids off their couch who don't show up at all, or the ones who are on the fence with your program.
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Post by bookoo2323 on Jan 20, 2016 9:07:18 GMT -6
I like Crossfit and incorporate into our program.
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Post by coachcb on Jan 20, 2016 9:28:47 GMT -6
1. Crossfit is metabolic conditioning, nothing more, nothing less. It serves it's purpose on that aspect. However, it's poorly implemented with respect to the major lifts. You do not take Olympic lifts to failure, period. There was a video out there (I can't find it now) of a guy doing snatches for high reps, he gets fatigued and drops the weight on his upper back/neck. Crossfit, even for football, is not sound S&C.
2. The kids has been bitten by the Crossfit virus and is ditching weight training? So be it. The rest of the team will get bigger, stronger and faster because they're using a quality S&C program while he'll get scrawny and weak. As has been stated above, you can tell the kid that you'd like him training with the team and then let his lack of playing time do the rest of the talking.
3. I wouldn't even broach the subject with the parents. You could end up getting in trouble because they'll view it as you making team weight training "mandatory". So, let them drive little Johnny to the local Crossfit "box" and waste their money. They could have their kid on a REAL training program for free but it's their call.
4. Honestly, I have found that you just can't win when you have kids that would rather workout at Gold's Gym or do Crossfit than workout with their team. We've tried to tied off-season participation and other sports into lettering requirements and that didn't work. We've tried to make it pseudo-mandatory by putting up a depth chart that puts those kids that workout with the team above the those that don't but that's just viewed as "mandatory" as well.
5. The kids and community need to buy into the program's weight room and then you can show the results on the field. It's really the only way to squash the commercial gym and Crossfit hype. Unfortunately, we live in a society where being big, thick and strong is viewed as barbaric while being a scrawny Cross-fitter/wanna-be fitness model is ideal. I have seen many kids over the last ten years who are becoming "manorexic": 15-18 year old kids "dieting" and following the weight training programs they find in Muscle and Fitness and Flex.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 10:11:02 GMT -6
btw, you gentlemen would do well to study some sports psychology studies on selfish players and how they perform. The findings will surprise you. there is evidence that players become selfish by being superior first and foremost. So if players choose to train on their own, they are being selfish? If a player does his own thing on the court/field is he being selfish?
Quite obviously - being coachable begins in the weight room, in the off season. Its called PROGRAM BUY IN. Players who cannot be trusted in the weight room are hard to trust on the field. That's fact.
Players who quickly fall in line, jump on board and row the boat hard from day one are much less likely to be drilling holes in your boat in the middle of the season.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 20, 2016 10:51:04 GMT -6
I usually just kind of throw something together. Usually it's specific to that day and I try to incorporate actions/muscle groups we haven't really worked that day yet.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 20, 2016 10:56:08 GMT -6
We also suffer from a "more is better" and "private is better" and "more expensive is better" kind of thinking from those that wish to spend money on their training rather than train for free with the team. This is more common, from my experience, at a private school where families are often highly involved with personal training instructions, personal chefs and so on. Again, nobody that has gone that route has shown up and broken records that have been set in our small weight room by guys who are involved in our program. I understand that some parents will never trust a common school teacher/coach but would rather pay for the glitz and glammore of the speed camp/personal training guru. In my experience, those kids struggle with basic squats, deadlifts and cleans. They can do burpees and pushups like nobodys business though. "Private" lifting kids don't get stronger by much because a trainer knows who's signing his paycheck. If he busts little Johnny's ass too hard Johnny will complain and quit going and he won't get paid. So they find an acceptable level of pushing and that usually isn't high enough to see big gains. The Crossfit crowd has made puking a badge of honor, and a lot of their workouts will have you spewing your brains out. They just won't make you stronger. Very few induce that deep soreness that comes with building muscle. Most of theirs is the superficial I moved too much soreness that you walk off quickly. It's a great workout. If you have no interest in strength gains or getting better at a sport.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 10:59:34 GMT -6
So if players choose to train on their own, they are being selfish? If a player does his own thing on the court/field is he being selfish?
Quite obviously - being coachable begins in the weight room, in the off season. Its called PROGRAM BUY IN. Players who cannot be trusted in the weight room are hard to trust on the field. That's fact.
Players who quickly fall in line, jump on board and row the boat hard from day one are much less likely to be drilling holes in your boat in the middle of the season.
But what if the boatbuilder doesn't know how to build a boat in the first place?
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 11:22:23 GMT -6
If a player does his own thing on the court/field is he being selfish?
Quite obviously - being coachable begins in the weight room, in the off season. Its called PROGRAM BUY IN. Players who cannot be trusted in the weight room are hard to trust on the field. That's fact.
Players who quickly fall in line, jump on board and row the boat hard from day one are much less likely to be drilling holes in your boat in the middle of the season.
But what if the boatbuilder doesn't know how to build a boat in the first place? Well isn't that the prevailing attitude of every selfish kid in the off season and during the season? Often that attitude is a reflection of the parents as well.
You'll never know unless you give it a try.
Having witnessed- up close- hall of fame coaches being questioned on every move they made by know it all parents and players, I can honestly say that a person with that attitude is better off NOT BEING ON THE TEAM.
Its a very wise thing for coaches to keep records and send emails home when kids train and set records in the program. Let those who are not participating understand the progress THAT IS HAPPENING FOR THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED.
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Post by fbs on Jan 20, 2016 11:36:48 GMT -6
we saw the beginnings of this problem last year, but nipped it in the bud as soon as it started. We told them, "what you do on your own time is your own business, but you WILL work out with THIS team during our athletic class period." I understand that not all states have athletic class periods, and that's a whole different issue altogether, and I sympathize with ya'll who are dealing with that. We have a guy in our community that is a crossfit "guru"... not really sure how you get that card, but I get the feeling it's not difficult. He has a son in our program that works out with him and remains one of the weakest and out of shape kids in our entire program. Crossfit does nothing for functional strength, and absolutely nothing in the vein of functionality in football.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 11:57:37 GMT -6
But what if the boatbuilder doesn't know how to build a boat in the first place? Well isn't that the prevailing attitude of every selfish kid in the off season and during the season? Often that attitude is a reflection of the parents as well.
You'll never know unless you give it a try.
Having witnessed- up close- hall of fame coaches being questioned on every move they made by know it all parents and players, I can honestly say that a person with that attitude is better off NOT BEING ON THE TEAM.
Its a very wise thing for coaches to keep records and send emails home when kids train and set records in the program. Let those who are not participating understand the progress THAT IS HAPPENING FOR THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED.
I don't need to stick my foot in a wood chipper to know it's not a good idea. I am having a hard time understanding why some of you guys simply don't grasp that there are lots of guys running high school weight rooms who don't have any business doing so. And those kids are much better off training somewhere else. No amount of "team bonding" and all that crap will overcome some guy who doesn't know what he is doing.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 12:00:22 GMT -6
The point is, if youre not going to buy into the weight program designed or supported by the HC< then why should anyone assume you will buy into your assignment on offense or defense or special teams? Are we going to leave that open to the kids as well?
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 20, 2016 12:01:04 GMT -6
I don't doubt that there are guys who don't know what they are doing running HS weight training programs. My question as it relates to this topic is who makes that determination? A 16 year old kid? Their parents?
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 12:09:59 GMT -6
Fact-
Kids that don't buy in because they know more than the coach= a losing program either way
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Post by fantom on Jan 20, 2016 12:13:23 GMT -6
Well isn't that the prevailing attitude of every selfish kid in the off season and during the season? Often that attitude is a reflection of the parents as well.
You'll never know unless you give it a try.
Having witnessed- up close- hall of fame coaches being questioned on every move they made by know it all parents and players, I can honestly say that a person with that attitude is better off NOT BEING ON THE TEAM.
Its a very wise thing for coaches to keep records and send emails home when kids train and set records in the program. Let those who are not participating understand the progress THAT IS HAPPENING FOR THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED.
I don't need to stick my foot in a wood chipper to know it's not a good idea. I am having a hard time understanding why some of you guys simply don't grasp that there are lots of guys running high school weight rooms who don't have any business doing so. And those kids are much better off training somewhere else. No amount of "team bonding" and all that crap will overcome some guy who doesn't know what he is doing. Running a high school weight program isn't that hard. Sure, some programs are better than others but I don't think that there are that many that are truly bad. I also have to side with those who question whether the players who have no confidence in our weight prrogram are going to buy into our football system. I have to add that, besides S&C, in our state we're allowed to do football work in the offseason so kids that are missing are missing more than physical conditioning.
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Post by rosey65 on Jan 20, 2016 12:22:31 GMT -6
Well isn't that the prevailing attitude of every selfish kid in the off season and during the season? Often that attitude is a reflection of the parents as well.
You'll never know unless you give it a try.
Having witnessed- up close- hall of fame coaches being questioned on every move they made by know it all parents and players, I can honestly say that a person with that attitude is better off NOT BEING ON THE TEAM.
Its a very wise thing for coaches to keep records and send emails home when kids train and set records in the program. Let those who are not participating understand the progress THAT IS HAPPENING FOR THOSE THAT ARE INVOLVED.
I don't need to stick my foot in a wood chipper to know it's not a good idea. I am having a hard time understanding why some of you guys simply don't grasp that there are lots of guys running high school weight rooms who don't have any business doing so. And those kids are much better off training somewhere else. No amount of "team bonding" and all that crap will overcome some guy who doesn't know what he is doing. Totally valid point, but for an entirely different discussion. This isn't about who runs a better program. This is about allowing, or at least fighting with, kids who want to forego their own team's workouts to do a workout on their own. Our HC is constantly telling us assitants, in jest, that he "hates them all the same." If you let a kid miss for Crossfit, you have to let him miss for Yoga, Jazzercise, Spinning, TRX and Bootcamp. All of those are great workouts, but all are going to take away from the team. To make things easier and more consistent, no one can miss. We work with and around other sports, activities, tests, prom, family vacations, etc. But no one gets a pass to freely miss the workout altogether. Crossfit is a very polarizing topic, but it's not really the issue here. Crossfit has expanded on workout principles that we all use, on some level, in our own programs. But you cant sell or market good techniques, so Crossfit expanded on certain principles to make the brand their own. There are very well-run gyms, as well as some who teach very questionable techniques. Your argument would therefore apply to any gym or trainer a kid wants to work out with. But that's an asinine, semantical argument neither one of us would benefit from having.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 20, 2016 12:53:28 GMT -6
Ultimately for us, we don't punish the kids for choices his parents make.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 12:54:53 GMT -6
The point is, if youre not going to buy into the weight program designed or supported by the HC< then why should anyone assume you will buy into your assignment on offense or defense or special teams? Are we going to leave that open to the kids as well? That's a ridiculous slippery slope. If a kid doesn't do the job he is coached to do, that clearly is grounds for not playing him. That's not what we are talking about here. If a kid trains by himself and comes in and meets the coach's expectations, he still is going to get benched? How many of you guys honestly don't play a kid who is the best at his position simply because he didn't train with the team? Again...we aren't talking about a bad kid. Kid shows up to practice, works hard, does his job the way he is coached, follows team rules, is s good teammate. Kid is also a great athlete but just didn't lift with the team. You really aren't going to play that kid?
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Post by 19delta on Jan 20, 2016 12:56:53 GMT -6
I don't need to stick my foot in a wood chipper to know it's not a good idea. I am having a hard time understanding why some of you guys simply don't grasp that there are lots of guys running high school weight rooms who don't have any business doing so. And those kids are much better off training somewhere else. No amount of "team bonding" and all that crap will overcome some guy who doesn't know what he is doing. Running a high school weight program isn't that hard. Sure, some programs are better than others but I don't think that there are that many that are truly bad. I also have to side with those who question whether the players who have no confidence in our weight prrogram are going to buy into our football system. I have to add that, besides S&C, in our state we're allowed to do football work in the offseason so kids that are missing are missing more than physical conditioning. Trust me...some guys make it hard!
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