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Post by wingtol on Jan 18, 2016 10:31:27 GMT -6
I would love for all our players to lift in our program for all the reasons people have listed, but it just won't happen. We accept that. At least the kid is doing something like jgordon said they will see some kind of results(maybe not close to what they would in a strength program for football) if they work hard. Another thing especially in HS ball is that no matter what some kids are just better no matter how hard they work or don't work in the off season. Not every kid is a stud like college where a S/C program can put them over the edge. Guess my point is sometimes we get to bent out of shape over stuff that we shouldn't, if the kid is not a problem and is there for other team stuff works hard with the team and all what can you really do to him?
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 18, 2016 10:42:28 GMT -6
My point was there are aspects to crossfit that should be embraced and if you fight it you will regret it. Find way to assimilate some of it into your program to increase compliance.
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Post by gibbs72 on Jan 18, 2016 10:51:17 GMT -6
We do team workouts now as a group and I really enjoy them. When I played in high school, we had the weight room open at different intervals each day, and we were charted on our attendance and effort. Our coach just had minimum fitness tests (bench, squat, clean, 40, mile run, etc) by offensive position that you had to pass before the first game to start/ play significant snaps.
I think if the kids want to Crossfit, then OK. But, have those fitness tests at the end of the summer. If the Crossfit kids can pass it, great! It's not ideal, but you are still fielding athletes who are making your requirements. If not, then I believe the program will eventually sort itself out as those players (or those who attend the regular team sessions but don't put in much work) will not play much and can either adapt or fade away.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2016 11:00:36 GMT -6
My point was there are aspects to crossfit that should be embraced and if you fight it you will regret it. Find way to assimilate some of it into your program to increase compliance. My point is that I think we do ourselves a disservice by speaking as if metcons, use of kettlebells, olympic lifting etc comes FROM crossfit. As I mentioned, I think it is important to separate those items, and "crossfit". Crossfit is group exercise, not sports training.
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Post by vicvinegar on Jan 18, 2016 11:03:40 GMT -6
I was going to bring this up as its own thread but I think it applies here. Football is the only high school sport where there coaches want complete control over the players. I am guilty of it too. Basketball has aau. Baseball has travel teams. Golf, tennis and other like sports almost all have kids who compete outside the high school n their sports at other times of the year. Football is the last stronghold and its amazing we held on this long. Our baseball team takes hitting and pitching lessons from outside people. Golf and tennis does the same. Only in football is it not allowed. I couldn't disagree more. The sports that you mentioned or individual sports, with travel teams being any different. We're trying to build TEAMS. If players want to do other things after team lifting that's fine with me, but it's not an excuse to get out of team lifting. Your leaders may go out and work hard on their own. However, it's your second and third tier guys who will say that they're going to go lift on their own, but they never do. They may even believe it but they always come up with an excuse or they actually make it to the Y, but they goof off, stay for 30 minutes and roll out. I've witnessed it! End of season till January (when we start lifting) I personally lift and just have an open weight room. Players will talk about how they're not taking a day off, how everybody is going to be there, How they're going to do this and that. Reality is that the numbers dwindle real quick, they jack around more than they actually lift, and most don't stay longer than 30-45 minutes. Hard to get much done when your playing around half the time in 30-45 minutes. I'm in a city that has eight high schools, I don't find it a coincidence that the ones that have serious weight programs are the ones that consistently win.
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Post by mholst40 on Jan 18, 2016 11:13:13 GMT -6
Cross fit isn't popular because of WODs, Olifts, etc. it is popular because the people who are good at it are strong and in really good shape. The "marketing" of Crossfit makes it look cool. Kids see people doing Crossfit on social media and want to do the same. Crossfit has popularized the O lifts more than USA Weightlifting ever could have and I think it's one of the best movements to happen to general fitness in a long time. I do not believe it is the best methodology to train athletes.
So, if you're losing kids to Crossfit, I don't think you have to incorporate WODs, met cons or even O lifts (if you're not an O lift guy). What you need to do is create a culture in your weight room built upon rewarding players for success and promote them on social media (this is the aspect of Crossfit that has made it so popular!). Once the culture becomes like this, kids will want to be in your program.
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Post by NC1974 on Jan 18, 2016 11:30:20 GMT -6
I had my strength clinic this weekend and had over 100 strength coaches from all over the southeast in attendance. That includes college, high school, and private coaches. Our first speaker was a crossfit guy who is a high school coach here in Georgia. He outlined some of the pros and cons of crossfit for training athletes and he also bashed some of the things we all think about when the word crossfit comes up. But he brought up a very good point. If you aren't doing at least some aspects of crossfit in your training then your kids will be somewhere else. Another coach who is a usaw senior international coach said the same thing two years ago. Crossfit isn't going away and we as coaches better find a way to trick the kids into thinking we are doing it or they will go somewhere else to do it. Now it's not all bad. Crossfit has popularized the Olympic lifts like nothing else. You can have support for your cleans and snatches now because once a week you can see it on ESPN. I bought rogue bumpers and then told the kids look it's the same bumpers they use in the crossfit games. You have to be a salesman. I also wonder how many football coaches rail against crossfit but in reality don't know anything about it. At its core it's Olympic lifting and metabolic conditioning. Those things will always have its place in football. There isn't just one way to do crossfit. A lot of people talk about it like its a program when in reality it's not. It can be anything you want it to be. Somebody made the comment earlier that every credentialed strength coach says that crossfit shouldn't be used for training. Really? I can name three big time high school coaches right now who use aspects of crossfit in their program and one does crossfit certifications. Whats wrong with doing your strength work and then finishing with a short medcon? Lots of people do that already and have been doing that forever. The problem of kids training outside of your program can't be laid at the feet of crossfit. That's happening every where. It's happening to me and I'm USAW certified and run the Georgia strength coaches association. I've totaled 2023 in powerlifting having squatted over 800 lbs. Parents are going to always do stupid things. One thing I'm doing is trying to keep an open dialogue with the private trainer in our area so we can work together. Right now we have a hand full of guys that go to him on the side and I keep him up to date on what we are doing. I do have one that goes to him full time but I don't see that kid at all during the day so I just found that out. I do see that as a problem and I'm not sure how to fix it. We as coaches could really help ourselves by getting certified so we at least can present ourselves as knowledgeable. But just remember that in the end you will always be the dumb coach. I have to say I am slightly (only slightly, because I know you probably did it for simplicity in communication) disappointed that you fell into what I think is one of the most dreadful aspects of crossfit. The concept that anything basically not using commercial gym machines or anything that isn't purely weightlifting or powerlifting is "crossfit". You are correct things such as metabolic conditioning have been done for a long time in S&C--not sure why Crossfit gets to claim them as "theirs" That is why I think it is important to distinguish between "doing crossfit" (working at a CF gym with hot soccer moms and aging ex athletes --at best-, or skinny but fit guy with a beard in a random bout of exercise) and using metabolic conditioning when appropriate in a well thought out (even if simple) training program. I would also caution against those who suggest that "the kids can do 'whatever' after they train with us" might not be setting their athletes up for the best success possible. I wouldn't suggest that kids that age could really suffer from overtraining much doing that (assuming adequate rest and nutrition...which may or may not occur during any training program) BUT I would be interested to see if anyone has any solid peer reviewed research on the bodies adaption (or lack of) to strength training when also presented with frequent metabolic conditioning stimuli. I actually think I have seen a few articles, but I am not sure enough to present with any confidence. I have to agree with Coachd5085 that too many people think that -metabolic conditioning -olympic lifting -jumping rope were all thing that were invented by Crossfit. I'm kidding a little about olympic lifts and jump rope, but not about Metabolic conditioning. I also have an issue with those who say that there are different ways to do Crossfit. While this might be true, what 90% of people think of as Crossfit is 4-5 days a week of WODs, metabolic conditioning in which people are racing to beat their time. This is what Crossfit has told us makes them different Good strength coaches will mostly agree that: doing metabolic conditioning that often is bad for strength and probably bad for other things like adrenal function. Also, racing the clock on technical lifts is also bad because it leads to bad technique. Finally, why give Crossfit the credit, by saying we must incorporate some aspects of Crossfit to keep the kids. What is it about Crossfit that you want to incororate? Metabolic conditioning? Great, but Crossfit didn't invent that. Football and wrestling coaches have been doing it for years. Crossfit has just taken to an extreme (IMO a bad extreme that will cost you with strength) Olympic lifting? Awesome, but that's not Crossfit either. Some sort of timed competition? Sure, coaches have been doing this stuff forever, but they haven't replaced their strength trainign with it. I think it is also telling that when "Crossfit Football" was created, it made itself more attractive to strength athletes by becoming "less Crossfit like". It added more strength days and more periodization. In other words, they became more like traditional program and LESS like a Crossfit program. Kids need to be educated. They think that if they do a 18 minute routine that makes them puke 4 time a week then they are becoming Bada$$es. They're becoming tougher. And they might be getting mentally tougher, but I don't think they're getting much stronger, or preparing their bodies to become less injury prone in the offseason. Which I guess brings me to the last part of my rant. Injuries. What's going to happen when the doughy 230 lb sophomore, who hasn't done any real strength training, tries to bust out as many kipping pull ups as he can? I hope he's just going to tear his hands, which internet crossfitters apparently consider bada$$ based on the number of selfies I've seen, and not his rotator cuff.
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Post by blb on Jan 18, 2016 11:38:16 GMT -6
Pardon my ignorance, but what are "WODs"?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2016 11:42:41 GMT -6
Pardon my ignorance, but what are "WODs"? It is the Acronym for "Workout Of the Day". It is now used basically to describe the metabolic conditioning part of a workout, as many crossfit owners are starting to follow different programming than they did a decade ago.
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Post by NC1974 on Jan 18, 2016 11:47:04 GMT -6
Pardon my ignorance, but what are "WODs"? Workout of the Day This is one of the bedrocks of Crossfit. Take a look at some from the website. See if you can discern any sort of periodization? www.crossfit.com/
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 18, 2016 11:55:25 GMT -6
Has anyone mixed up the offseason weightlifting program by bringing in other people to run it for a day or just doing one off days, to keep it fun? I agree with pretty much everyone that lifting as a team is best, but also that kids now often want to stuff outside the program and, as mentioned, crossfit does have some positive aspects, not least of all the fact that it gets people fired up about the program. But I was curious if anyone has brought in a (good) crossfit guy for a day or just incorporated other ideas? I remember after the movie 300 came out Michigan State started doing "Spartan 300" workout days based on the movie and the training methods the cast used to get ready for the movie: coachad.com/articles/powerline-spartan-300-training/My wife is a personal trainer. When I was a HC I would bring her in from time to time to do core work. The kids did NOT like to see her walk through the door. She would croak them in 10 minutes.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 18, 2016 12:20:49 GMT -6
Since nobody else has said it, You respond to kids who want to do crossfit with this:
"Do you want to exercise or do you want to train for strength?"
To me, that's the primary difference...exercise vs training.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jan 18, 2016 12:37:41 GMT -6
crossfitfootball.com/CrossFit Football is a comprehensive strength and conditioning program designed for participants in contact sports requiring speed, strength and capacity. We use multi-plane compound movements to simulate the demands placed on an athlete during sport. Football, like most field sports, is a game of seconds and inches. CrossFit Football knows the demands placed on players during the game and the distances they will have to travel. With this in mind, we can replicate the stresses and situations a player will face on the field. By combining high intensity movements with a comprehensive strength and speed program, the result is a training program that is unparalleled in the industry. How do we know CrossFit Football’s programming works? Because it has been designed by NFL players and some of the top coaches in the world. Not only have top athletes created it, but also it has been used to compete at the highest levels of professional sports. The utility of this program is not theoretical; this program was not merely designed by someone that thinks it might work, but by athletes and coaches that have dominated at the highest levels of competitive athletics. The CrossFit Football program is designed to work for all players regardless of age or experience. The loads, distances, times, intensity, and programming can be scaled, and the program has been designed to meet the needs of athletes at all levels of training advancement. Every athlete needs to be strong in mind, heart and body. He needs to be fast and explosive. He needs to be able to perform when tired and exhausted. This applies to NFL players, Olympic athletes the same as it applies to Pop Warner and 40-year-old athlete competing in the garage. CrossFit Football meets these needs, for all athletes and competitors. are you crossfit certified
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Post by silkyice on Jan 18, 2016 12:44:36 GMT -6
Since nobody else has said it, You respond to kids who want to do crossfit with this: "Do you want to exercise or do you want to train for strength?" To me, that's the primary difference...exercise vs training. wearout vs workout is how I refer to it.
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Post by blb on Jan 18, 2016 12:47:36 GMT -6
Since nobody else has said it, You respond to kids who want to do crossfit with this: "Do you want to exercise or do you want to train for strength?" To me, that's the primary difference...exercise vs training. wearout vs workout is how I refer to it.
...or as I've explained it to our players from time to time:
"Any idiot with a whistle and a clipboard can make you sweat, tired, and even vomit.
But that doesn't make you a Football player."
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 18, 2016 14:23:59 GMT -6
I still say that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. A few on here are taking the extremes of crossfit and making it the norm. There is now crossfit for football, weightlifting, baseball,etc. there is no reason to fight against when you can incorporate aspects of it.
Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy who is very anti crossfit in his own training.
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 18, 2016 14:28:43 GMT -6
My point was there are aspects to crossfit that should be embraced and if you fight it you will regret it. Find way to assimilate some of it into your program to increase compliance. My point is that I think we do ourselves a disservice by speaking as if metcons, use of kettlebells, olympic lifting etc comes FROM crossfit. As I mentioned, I think it is important to separate those items, and "crossfit". Crossfit is group exercise, not sports training. But most people don't know that so unless you plan on educating the entire world you're in trouble. I made a mistake on this thread making it about crossfit when it's really not. It's about kids not training in your program so it's only going to get worse.
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 18, 2016 14:36:47 GMT -6
Man I had a really good post that somehow just got lost and I'm way too lazy to repost. H
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2016 14:44:05 GMT -6
I still say that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. A few on here are taking the extremes of crossfit and making it the norm. There is now crossfit for football, weightlifting, baseball,etc. there is no reason to fight against when you can incorporate aspects of it. Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy who is very anti crossfit in his own training. I know what you are saying... I just think the education aspect of it would benefit S&C professionals GREATLY as opposed to allowing that belief to continue. Bottom line is that everyone finds it hard to reconcile that this guy is a HELLUVA lot stronger and more explosive than this guy
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 18, 2016 14:48:40 GMT -6
I still say that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. A few on here are taking the extremes of crossfit and making it the norm. There is now crossfit for football, weightlifting, baseball,etc. there is no reason to fight against when you can incorporate aspects of it. Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy who is very anti crossfit in his own training. I know what you are saying... I just think the education aspect of it would benefit S&C professionals GREATLY as opposed to allowing that belief to continue. Bottom line is that everyone finds it hard to reconcile that this guy is a HELLUVA lot stronger and more explosive than this guy You're arguing with an Olympic weightlifting coach and you show a picture of a weightlifter wearing a singlet with eleiko bumpers in the background! I agree it's better!
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2016 14:53:49 GMT -6
Coach, I am only disagreeing with you about the "mountain/molehill" stand. I honestly think S&C professionals would do themselves a great service if they did INDEED make a mountain out of it, and educate the kids, rather than just say "well, it isn't in my program..and I had other uses for this time, but.. lets throw in some of these to appease the kids".
Is doing that terribly far off from running "pistol spread" to get the "athletes" ?
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Post by vince148 on Jan 18, 2016 14:54:00 GMT -6
Take a lesson from the local HS in my area that decided to use crossfit to train their football team this past summer. They finished 1-8.
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Post by silkyice on Jan 18, 2016 15:11:22 GMT -6
How hard is it to educate the team? You have a whole season and every weight training session over of the course of a year at a minimum to talk with them. It takes about 5 minutes to explain.
I talk about it a decent amount. The kids get it.
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Post by CS on Jan 18, 2016 16:14:53 GMT -6
I still say that it's making a mountain out of a mole hill. A few on here are taking the extremes of crossfit and making it the norm. There is now crossfit for football, weightlifting, baseball,etc. there is no reason to fight against when you can incorporate aspects of it. Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy who is very anti crossfit in his own training. I know what you are saying... I just think the education aspect of it would benefit S&C professionals GREATLY as opposed to allowing that belief to continue. Bottom line is that everyone finds it hard to reconcile that this guy is a HELLUVA lot stronger and more explosive than this guy Maybe it's his Frank Caliendo face and jerry curl they don't like?
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Post by coachfloyd on Jan 18, 2016 16:24:23 GMT -6
Take a lesson from the local HS in my area that decided to use crossfit to train their football team this past summer. They finished 1-8. Take it from a buddy of mine who uses it and they've been 2-3 rounds every year for the past three when that school was a perennial loser. It's not that easy to determine effectiveness. One of the toughest schools I've ever played did only circuits. Wins aren't a good indicator.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 18, 2016 16:29:47 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 16:32:45 GMT -6
We have a group this year that is doing it. I let the boys know I wasn't happy about it and got on them about missing the team lifting. Eventually I spoke to the trainer and we all agreed that what they did was fine as long as it was in addition to our program. It was ugly and a few parents and I had some words. I was told by one parent that we have no proof that any of our staff know anything we are talking about. I guess it is time to start spending the money and get certifications. Parents know everything! That's why I just tell the kids they can watch on the sideline come Friday nights. They are free to lift however they want, but if they wish to play, they must do it my way. Playing time is determined by the coaching staff only. Usually kids will come around pretty quickly. The tough spot is when you know you have a projected starter not doing it the way you want. I've always thought it was tough to draw that firm line, but the longer I do this, the firmer I become. I think if a kid is truly committed he will do what I ask. The years kids didn't do it my way in the offseason, they rarely did it my way come season either. It's taken a few years but I've got in my staff's head that we are looking for the right eleven, which isn't necessarily the best eleven. So if a kid does Crossfit and still ends up being the best at his position, you don't start him? What if he ends up being one of the strongest kids on the team? Seems to me like you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. I guess my point is, as long as kids are getting stronger and faster and better, really...at the end of the day...what difference does it make what they are doing?
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 16:35:21 GMT -6
If he wants to workout with Crossfit instead of working out with us, he can play on Crossfit's football team next fall. We have a kid who is a heck of an athlete, but he doesn't work out with us. His dad had him going to a speed training thing 3 days a week. They do lifts and some other stuff, but they don't do any lifting for strength which is my gripe. The thing is, when the season starts he will be a starter, as he is to good to punish for not being there, and we have low numbers as well. What he and his dad, and me for a long time, are missing is the bond you form with the other guys you work out with. I was always the "let every body lift where they want" guy, but since I took over the weight room I can really see this play out. What will happen is he will miss one of the best things about HS football, he won't "be one of the guys", and that is HUGE in the grand scheme of things. Just my thoughts. Maybe. Maybe not. If he trains on his own and ends up being a beast, the other kids will definitely want him to be one of the guys.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 16:40:30 GMT -6
We didnt have this exact situation but last season we had a sr that had broken his collarbone his junior year and a junior that tore his acl his sophmore year. The seniors dad was completely against any of the overhead lifts and olympic lifts in general. We talked to him and gave him evidence of the safety and benefits of what we did in the weightroom. No dice he went to multiple doctors until he found one that would write a note saying his kid had to do a modified workout that the doctor and dad came up with. The junior just wanted to do half squats, and all upperbody stuff. SO we basically would just set those two off to do their own workout but still required to do the parts of our workout that they could. Fast forward to this offseason.... The Jr is now a SR and we just had a breakthru with him. We added another station to our lifting each day that is basically a large muscle target workout. He gets to pick the exercises in that station with coach guidance and in exchange he completely does all of the rest of our workout..... So we gave in a little and appear to be getting a lot more in return because this kid is also one we are counting on to be a leader and he is starting to really step it up.... SO my point I guess is dont completely write the kid off cause he wants to do a different workout, see if there is a reasonable compromise that can benefit both sides, but that doesn't make it appear the kid is running the show. Good for you, Coach. And here's the thing...if the kid doesn't progress...if he doesn't get any stronger and doesn't get any better, then the kids who are better at his position are going to play. There's that old saying about catching more flies with honey than with vinegar that certainly applies here.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 16:46:29 GMT -6
Cross fit isn't popular because of WODs, Olifts, etc. it is popular because the people who are good at it are strong and in really good shape. The "marketing" of Crossfit makes it look cool. Kids see people doing Crossfit on social media and want to do the same. Crossfit has popularized the O lifts more than USA Weightlifting ever could have and I think it's one of the best movements to happen to general fitness in a long time. I do not believe it is the best methodology to train athletes. So, if you're losing kids to Crossfit, I don't think you have to incorporate WODs, met cons or even O lifts (if you're not an O lift guy). What you need to do is create a culture in your weight room built upon rewarding players for success and promote them on social media (this is the aspect of Crossfit that has made it so popular!). Once the culture becomes like this, kids will want to be in your program. Maybe get some of the Crossfit chicks to train in your weightroom...they are smoking hot!
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