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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2016 16:49:41 GMT -6
Cross fit isn't popular because of WODs, Olifts, etc. it is popular because the people who are good at it are strong and in really good shape. The "marketing" of Crossfit makes it look cool. Kids see people doing Crossfit on social media and want to do the same. Crossfit has popularized the O lifts more than USA Weightlifting ever could have and I think it's one of the best movements to happen to general fitness in a long time. I do not believe it is the best methodology to train athletes. So, if you're losing kids to Crossfit, I don't think you have to incorporate WODs, met cons or even O lifts (if you're not an O lift guy). What you need to do is create a culture in your weight room built upon rewarding players for success and promote them on social media (this is the aspect of Crossfit that has made it so popular!). Once the culture becomes like this, kids will want to be in your program. Maybe get some of the Crossfit chicks to train in your weightroom...they are smoking hot! That is a common opinion of crossfit mainsite workouts. Will get women hot, and make men ripped and weak
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Post by John Knight on Jan 18, 2016 17:02:14 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2016 17:09:17 GMT -6
Thank you John Knight for putting up pictures of naked male torsos. That..was extremely useful.
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Post by natenator on Jan 18, 2016 17:38:15 GMT -6
Cross fit isn't popular because of WODs, Olifts, etc. it is popular because the people who are good at it are strong and in really good shape. The "marketing" of Crossfit makes it look cool. Kids see people doing Crossfit on social media and want to do the same. Crossfit has popularized the O lifts more than USA Weightlifting ever could have and I think it's one of the best movements to happen to general fitness in a long time. I do not believe it is the best methodology to train athletes. So, if you're losing kids to Crossfit, I don't think you have to incorporate WODs, met cons or even O lifts (if you're not an O lift guy). What you need to do is create a culture in your weight room built upon rewarding players for success and promote them on social media (this is the aspect of Crossfit that has made it so popular!). Once the culture becomes like this, kids will want to be in your program. Maybe get some of the Crossfit chicks to train in your weightroom...they are smoking hot!
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 18:19:08 GMT -6
Thank you John Knight for putting up pictures of naked male torsos. That..was extremely useful. That is the funniest thing I have read on the Internet all day...you made me waste some perfectly good Jim Beam when I snorted it out my nose though.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 18:24:06 GMT -6
Has anyone mixed up the offseason weightlifting program by bringing in other people to run it for a day or just doing one off days, to keep it fun? I agree with pretty much everyone that lifting as a team is best, but also that kids now often want to stuff outside the program and, as mentioned, crossfit does have some positive aspects, not least of all the fact that it gets people fired up about the program. But I was curious if anyone has brought in a (good) crossfit guy for a day or just incorporated other ideas? I remember after the movie 300 came out Michigan State started doing "Spartan 300" workout days based on the movie and the training methods the cast used to get ready for the movie: coachad.com/articles/powerline-spartan-300-training/My wife is a personal trainer. When I was a HC I would bring her in from time to time to do core work. The kids did NOT like to see her walk through the door. She would croak them in 10 minutes. Hmmmm...female personal trainer and high school boys? And they weren't excited about her coming in? Were yoga pants involved? I like yoga pants...
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Post by s73 on Jan 18, 2016 19:17:30 GMT -6
I, like everybody else, has struggled with kids and weight room participation. I used to be the "ultimatum guy" but that has given mixed results.
With that said, I try to find compromises I can live with and if the kid WON'T meet me halfway then I simply find his position competition in the weight room and BUST MY A$$ working with that kid & I don't hide it from anybody. They know what I'm doing. I did this starting about 3 weeks ago and the kid who wasn't showing started showing.
Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong but it makes me feel better about the situation.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Jan 18, 2016 20:07:12 GMT -6
If we try to break up the routine in the weight room anything we do gets labeled "Crossfit" and they complain like we made them do Jane Austin video workout.
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Post by John Knight on Jan 18, 2016 20:10:14 GMT -6
I remember when our Head Coach made everyone go to Jazzercise! You would have thought it was ballet class!
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Post by CanyonCoach on Jan 18, 2016 20:15:22 GMT -6
We had a local personal trainer do Zumba about 4 years ago...At first they were like WTF and then the girls cross country and volleyball team came in and it was the hardest some of those kids worked all year....videoed it as blackmail for the kids with no rhythm. My stomach was sore from laughing, the kids asked for the rest of the season when Zumba was coming back.
Side note is that the kids that didn't put in effort ran hills for 20 minutes the next morning.
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Post by eagles12 on Jan 18, 2016 20:46:54 GMT -6
Parents know everything! That's why I just tell the kids they can watch on the sideline come Friday nights. They are free to lift however they want, but if they wish to play, they must do it my way. Playing time is determined by the coaching staff only. Usually kids will come around pretty quickly. The tough spot is when you know you have a projected starter not doing it the way you want. I've always thought it was tough to draw that firm line, but the longer I do this, the firmer I become. I think if a kid is truly committed he will do what I ask. The years kids didn't do it my way in the offseason, they rarely did it my way come season either. It's taken a few years but I've got in my staff's head that we are looking for the right eleven, which isn't necessarily the best eleven. So if a kid does Crossfit and still ends up being the best at his position, you don't start him? What if he ends up being one of the strongest kids on the team? Seems to me like you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. I guess my point is, as long as kids are getting stronger and faster and better, really...at the end of the day...what difference does it make what they are doing? If the kid ends up being the best at his spot, more than likely he will play- unless he is a turd. I disagree with your notion that it does not matter how the kids get from A to B. I think it matters greatly. I believe it is important that the kids travel that road together. I have no issue putting 11 guys on the field that are completely bought in. Is participating in off-season workouts part of being bought in? Yes. Is that the only factor that determines if the kid sees the field in the fall? Absolutely not. In my experience, the kid that doesn't listen to me in the February, rarely listens to me in August. That player will never play for me. I suppose the issue isn't really crossfit so much as it is trust.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 18, 2016 21:13:18 GMT -6
So if a kid does Crossfit and still ends up being the best at his position, you don't start him? What if he ends up being one of the strongest kids on the team? Seems to me like you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. I guess my point is, as long as kids are getting stronger and faster and better, really...at the end of the day...what difference does it make what they are doing? If the kid ends up being the best at his spot, more than likely he will play- unless he is a turd. I disagree with your notion that it does not matter how the kids get from A to B. I think it matters greatly. I believe it is important that the kids travel that road together. I have no issue putting 11 guys on the field that are completely bought in. Is participating in off-season workouts part of being bought in? Yes. Is that the only factor that determines if the kid sees the field in the fall? Absolutely not. In my experience, the kid that doesn't listen to me in the February, rarely listens to me in August. That player will never play for me. I suppose the issue isn't really crossfit so much as it is trust. But that is really two separate issues, isn't it? I mean, if a kid is disrespectful, a bad teammate, doesn't follow team rules, doesn't play his position the way he is coached to do it...well, obviously, that's clearly grounds for not playing a kid. What we are talking about is simply a kid who just wants to train somewhere else. And there are LOTS of reasons that kids might not be able to train in the high school weightroom. Maybe they play another sport or have a job or can't get a ride home after training. Maybe the guy who is running the weightroom after school never touched a weight and sits at his desk on his iPhone and doesn't coach up the kids who are lifting. Maybe the kid isn't getting pushed in the weightroom and needs a more competitive environment or a more challenging program. There can be all sorts of reasons. That doesn't make him a bad kid. If anything, I would think that coaches would appreciate a kid who shows that kind of initiative and ambition to take control of his own training. There are some really good S&C coaches on here...guys like silkyice , coachfloyd , windigo ...guys who are knowledgeable and have been under the bar in a big way and have produced some tremendous football players. The problem is that many schools simply don't have a guy like that. And if you DON'T have a guy who knows what he is doing (or...even worse, he THINKS he knows what he is doing), it can be a huge disservice to kids and, more importantly, kids can really be screwed up. As a coach, you need to have accountability, no doubt. I don't think that there is anything wrong with telling kids, "Hey...this is where we expect you to be strengthwise by the start of the season." And, when you test, and those kids aren't there, then they will probably get beat out by the kids who are there. Law of the jungle...only the strong survive! That's the great thing about football! So, for me, the trust issue is moot. It's not about about trust as much as it is about communicating your expectations to the kids. Those expectations need to get met either in the weightroom after school with the football coaches or down the street at Big Box Crossfit.
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Post by mariner42 on Jan 18, 2016 21:29:17 GMT -6
If nothing else, I think this thread is a great example of why having a football-only lifting period is a HUGE benefit to your program.
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Post by eagles12 on Jan 18, 2016 22:17:11 GMT -6
If the kid ends up being the best at his spot, more than likely he will play- unless he is a turd. I disagree with your notion that it does not matter how the kids get from A to B. I think it matters greatly. I believe it is important that the kids travel that road together. I have no issue putting 11 guys on the field that are completely bought in. Is participating in off-season workouts part of being bought in? Yes. Is that the only factor that determines if the kid sees the field in the fall? Absolutely not. In my experience, the kid that doesn't listen to me in the February, rarely listens to me in August. That player will never play for me. I suppose the issue isn't really crossfit so much as it is trust. But that is really two separate issues, isn't it? I mean, if a kid is disrespectful, a bad teammate, doesn't follow team rules, doesn't play his position the way he is coached to do it...well, obviously, that's clearly grounds for not playing a kid. What we are talking about is simply a kid who just wants to train somewhere else. And there are LOTS of reasons that kids might not be able to train in the high school weightroom. Maybe they play another sport or have a job or can't get a ride home after training. Maybe the guy who is running the weightroom after school never touched a weight and sits at his desk on his iPhone and doesn't coach up the kids who are lifting. Maybe the kid isn't getting pushed in the weightroom and needs a more competitive environment or a more challenging program. There can be all sorts of reasons. That doesn't make him a bad kid. If anything, I would think that coaches would appreciate a kid who shows that kind of initiative and ambition to take control of his own training. There are some really good S&C coaches on here...guys like silkyice , coachfloyd , windigo ...guys who are knowledgeable and have been under the bar in a big way and have produced some tremendous football players. The problem is that many schools simply don't have a guy like that. And if you DON'T have a guy who knows what he is doing (or...even worse, he THINKS he knows what he is doing), it can be a huge disservice to kids and, more importantly, kids can really be screwed up. As a coach, you need to have accountability, no doubt. I don't think that there is anything wrong with telling kids, "Hey...this is where we expect you to be strengthwise by the start of the season." And, when you test, and those kids aren't there, then they will probably get beat out by the kids who are there. Law of the jungle...only the strong survive! That's the great thing about football! So, for me, the trust issue is moot. It's not about about trust as much as it is about communicating your expectations to the kids. Those expectations need to get met either in the weightroom after school with the football coaches or down the street at Big Box Crossfit. I agree with you that they are two separate issues. That hadn't occurred to me until I was writing that post which is why I made that distinction. I also agree the school needs someone knowledgeable to do a great job. Great training doesn't happen by accident. If our school didn't have that guy or program, we would outsource it somebody else. We have made huge strides to change our program to benefit our kids which is why we want them there. If a kid wants to challenge himself outside of weights, great. For our kids who cannot make the weight room, we do exactly what you outline above. We test them and outline where we expect them to be by a given date. For the few kids who can't make it, but are still committed, they will bust their tail to achieve the numbers we set for them. And for our program, I am only talking about 5-8 guys who cannot make our workouts. That is our expectation and our kids do a great job of meeting that expectation.
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 19, 2016 7:32:32 GMT -6
I've had to adapt to being more accepting of kids getting the work in other places. My standards that need to be met are, as people above said, a commitment still to our program. As much as I'd like to eliminate guys that don't make them, it really isn't reasonable. I don't make it easy for them, though, and I certainly will put a committed kid in instead if possible. My mental manipulation (yes, it is manipulation) of their efforts is harder to do now that I've retired from teaching and can only run the weights 1 time per week with my assistant the rest. I'm not there during the day any more. Time will tell if it hurts us, though my assistant is good. That's a different story, though.
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Post by rosey65 on Jan 19, 2016 9:04:46 GMT -6
Never heard this before as an excuse to miss off season weights. Anybody hear this one before? If so, what did you say to parent and kid? Remember I cant tell a kid it is mandatory but we all know it is. If he wants to play for your team, he lifts with your team. If he'd rather do Crossfit, then he can join the Crossfit's football team. The two workouts are mutually exclusive. Crossfit's inappropriateness for football aside, lifting with the team is as necessary for cohesion as anything else. If you can be on the team and not do off-season workouts, what else do you not have to do? If i dont have to lift, then why would I go to study hall? Why would I go to practice? Why would I come to school? That is what I tell the kids and parents. Of course, workouts aren't mandatory. Kids are going to miss, of course. But to make a conscious decision to miss in lieu of something else shows a reflection of priorities. I have, and will continue to, tell that to both kids and parents every time.
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Post by rosey65 on Jan 19, 2016 9:17:04 GMT -6
Never heard this before as an excuse to miss off season weights. Anybody hear this one before? If so, what did you say to parent and kid? Remember I cant tell a kid it is mandatory but we all know it is. If he wants to play for your team, he lifts with your team. If he'd rather do Crossfit, then he can join the Crossfit's football team. The two workouts are mutually exclusive. Crossfit's inappropriateness for football aside, lifting with the team is as necessary for cohesion as anything else. If you can be on the team and not do off-season workouts, what else do you not have to do? If i dont have to lift, then why would I go to study hall? Why would I go to practice? Why would I come to school? That is what I tell the kids and parents. Of course, workouts aren't mandatory. Kids are going to miss, of course. But to make a conscious decision to miss in lieu of something else shows a reflection of priorities. I have, and will continue to, tell that to both kids and parents every time. My TE's dad runs his own Crossfit gym. We had that exact talk with him. I also explained to the TE that if he ever wanted to weight more than 170lbs, or bench more than 185, he needed to stop the 90 minute cardio circuit every day. He'd rather just wear the uniform and show his gf his 6-pack while riding the bench. I didn't yell at him, as we need practice players. I guess what I'm saying is that the workout isn't the problem. It's the time and focus spent either at practice, or away from the team. You dont boot a kid from the team because his mom bought him a bottle of booze and let his buddies get wasted on a saturday afternoon, but you sure as s#!t can if he comes to practice drunk. I mean, you can do whatever you want with your program. My HC says all the time "is it worth giving yourself a headache?" Most of the time, it isn't. The only thing you can control is what your kids do while they are at practice, and what happens to the ones who miss. Run your practice, run your team, dont give yourself a headache.
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Post by coach2013 on Jan 19, 2016 9:20:29 GMT -6
I literally just found out that my strongest freshman lineman is now doing crossfit.
I just said "well, I have never had a starting player that did not do our program but instead chose crossfit" and left it at that.
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Post by rosey65 on Jan 19, 2016 9:27:58 GMT -6
I literally just found out that my strongest freshman lineman is now doing crossfit. I just said "well, I have never had a starting player that did not do our program but instead chose crossfit" and left it at that. Do you have your own off-season workouts, that the kids do together as a team? Or are the kids responsible for doing their work workouts on their own?
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Post by rystaylo on Jan 19, 2016 10:06:12 GMT -6
I agree with you guys about the team cohesion and what not. But one of my former player is a crossfit games competitor and he can clean and jerk around 385.
So a lot of programs do a strength component before the actual wod. Now don't get me wrong he does a hell of a lot more lifting then just a 20 minute strength component before a wod.
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Post by oriolepower on Jan 19, 2016 10:36:54 GMT -6
I just have a hard time with the belief that if you train away from the team, the team will be better. Its not about Crossfit. I'm not an expert but I really believe if HS boys do any kind of lifting they will improve. It is all about teamwork, building trust, and accountability. Our workout program may not be the best but it makes us better because we do it together.
The personal trainer, regardless of the program, isn't lined up next to you when the game is on the line.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Jan 19, 2016 10:42:48 GMT -6
Our baseball guy does some tire workout. I think it's an accidental double entendre as all I see it to is tire them out. There's 0 form, 0 science, 0 skill building involved. They run through them, around them, and carry them.
Our workout is a little different. I've met with a crossfit guy, many BFS guys, Dale Baskett (a football-only speed coach), seen Steve Kenyon at Glazier twice, seen UCFs strength department three times, my dad was a BFS guy and baseball guy for 20 years, and a football/basketball private S&C trainer. I decided to develop my own workout program which has a power day and 2 circuit days (1 unilateral, 1 bilateral) / week (2 speed days and 1 football day outside). This to me is the best of both worlds and we're training to be athletic year round. I need more athletic and powerful rather than big and strong. I know a lot of guys are big on "we don't run at all until March" or "... until summer." No thanks to that idea.
Crossfitesque stuff helps, HIIT helps, power lifting helps, olys help, flipping tires can help.
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Post by windigo on Jan 19, 2016 12:59:53 GMT -6
Hmmmm...female personal trainer and high school boys? And they weren't excited about her coming in? Were yoga pants involved? I like yoga pants... Yoga pants have made coaching this generation far more difficult than previous generations. Just walking to the booth on game day I have to be going on and on in my head 'Eyes forward ... eyes forward ...'
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 19, 2016 13:33:45 GMT -6
Hmmmm...female personal trainer and high school boys? And they weren't excited about her coming in? Were yoga pants involved? I like yoga pants... Yoga pants have made coaching this generation far more difficult than previous generations. Just walking to the booth on game day I have to be going on and on in my head 'Eyes forward ... eyes forward ...' I knew I was in trouble this season when I saw more yoga pants on my players during workouts than in the stands. Oh, sorry guys. I meant compression pants. Those definitely are not yoga pants for those of you that wear them. ;-)
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Post by seabass on Jan 19, 2016 13:36:40 GMT -6
Long time lurker, first time contributor (I use that term contributor lightly). I'm just a youth coach and I have ZERO experience with building or maintaining a strength and conditioning program. I do have friends that are in that position and I'm a gym rat so we discuss the subject a lot. I also end up training with a handful of HS athletes every summer.
Over the last 6 years I have trained with a bunch of kids (mostly football and Lacrosse players). If they stick around longer than a few weeks I typically end up asking them how they ended up in our gym. My follow-up question is always, "what is your team doing and why aren't you training with them?"
Based on the feedback from those kids my conclusion is kids don't train with their own team for 1 or 2 of a few reasons:
1- They are selfish or think they are "special" 2- Their school's program stinks 3- Their coach has done a poor job of creating a culture that makes them want to train with their team. Poor atmosphere, poor attendance by teammates etc..
#1 and #3 are the most common.
With the right coaching, attitude and money a kid can get better in the offseason without the assistance of his teammates or HS coaches. I don't know if that makes the team better though. My boys won't have a choice. They WILL train with their team. If I see deficiencies in the program then we will fix those on our own.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 19, 2016 14:47:24 GMT -6
Yoga pants have made coaching this generation far more difficult than previous generations. Just walking to the booth on game day I have to be going on and on in my head 'Eyes forward ... eyes forward ...' I knew I was in trouble this season when I saw more yoga pants on my players during workouts than in the stands. Oh, sorry guys. I meant compression pants. Those definitely are not yoga pants for those of you that wear them. ;-) My wife calls them my moga pants. I only wear them under pants in public, but I will admit they're really comfortable. Around home I'll wear them under a pair of shorts. No need for the children to see the family jewels front and center. I can see why women wear them so often. I just wish a lot of them who do wear them wouldn't.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 19, 2016 14:53:36 GMT -6
crossfit is excellent for fat loss NOT for strength or athletic performance no one cares how fast you can clean a light weight... woo hoo you can clean a whole 135 lbs 30x in 2 minutes? go kick rocks the strong @ss dudes on tv on crossfit games do a CRAP TON of HEAVY Oly and power lifts... they dont just do the WODS and go home Exactly. A few years ago Crossfit was marketing itself to HS athletes in the area using a former NFL player as a spokesperson. Told everyone Xfit extended his career, for a low price of blah blah they'd do the same for them, etc. I've never had a kid leave our program for theirs as our kids know they can't gain the kind of football strength there that they can with us. I mean, we went from 2 kids on the team squatting 300lbs my first year hear (to a milk crate to give you an idea of depth) to 10 of our 11 offensive starters squatted that at least. They've also realized that squatting and cleaning can make you quicker as 2 of our fastest kids both squat 400+ and clean 225+. I have a couple who miss 1 day a week for a speed enhancement thing, but 1 day isn't that big of a deal. I think that's a battle I'm better off not fighting. People question a lot of things about me, but weightlifting isn't one. Crossfit just can't put on bulk and raw power. We use some Crossfit type workouts for conditioning once or twice a week, but to just do WODs and expect to gain size and strength is just idiotic.
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Post by seabass on Jan 19, 2016 15:39:36 GMT -6
Maybe a little off topic but how many of you guys are implementing the jerk in your programming? Everybody seems to be cleaning but I rarely hear anybody mention the second part of the lift.
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Post by jlenwood on Jan 19, 2016 17:47:03 GMT -6
crossfit is excellent for fat loss NOT for strength or athletic performance no one cares how fast you can clean a light weight... woo hoo you can clean a whole 135 lbs 30x in 2 minutes? go kick rocks the strong @ss dudes on tv on crossfit games do a CRAP TON of HEAVY Oly and power lifts... they dont just do the WODS and go home Exactly. A few years ago Crossfit was marketing itself to HS athletes in the area using a former NFL player as a spokesperson. Told everyone Xfit extended his career, for a low price of blah blah they'd do the same for them, etc. I've never had a kid leave our program for theirs as our kids know they can't gain the kind of football strength there that they can with us. I mean, we went from 2 kids on the team squatting 300lbs my first year hear (to a milk crate to give you an idea of depth) to 10 of our 11 offensive starters squatted that at least. They've also realized that squatting and cleaning can make you quicker as 2 of our fastest kids both squat 400+ and clean 225+. I have a couple who miss 1 day a week for a speed enhancement thing, but 1 day isn't that big of a deal. I think that's a battle I'm better off not fighting. People question a lot of things about me, but weightlifting isn't one. Crossfit just can't put on bulk and raw power. We use some Crossfit type workouts for conditioning once or twice a week, but to just do WODs and expect to gain size and strength is just idiotic. Do you have a specific program you follow, or did you put your own together?
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 19, 2016 18:05:07 GMT -6
We have probably 2/3 of our kids doing other sports. It is almost impossible to get them in after school for many reasons, a lot of them legit. Frustrating, especially when their sport isn't doing any strength work. This topic has been covered but I ALMOST could accept even some crossfit if that is all the in season sport guys would do.
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