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Post by 44dlcoach on Feb 1, 2022 19:26:36 GMT -6
Obviously we don't know much about how the Giants interview actually transpired, but on the face of it I don't think bringing in other candidates even though the Giants were pretty confident in who they wanted to hire is doing anything wrong. Dabol may have been their number one choice, but what if they didn't end up being his number one choice?
Or, how different is it than a team with the number 1 pick in the draft bringing in 5 or 6 prospects for interviews before the draft?
Now the actual content of the interview may have made it obvious that it was a sham designed to satisfy a rule and if that is the case then that changes my view on this part of it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 1, 2022 19:45:23 GMT -6
Obviously we don't know much about how the Giants interview actually transpired, but on the face of it I don't think bringing in other candidates even though the Giants were pretty confident in who they wanted to hire is doing anything wrong. Dabol may have been their number one choice, but what if they didn't end up being his number one choice? Or, how different is it than a team with the number 1 pick in the draft bringing in 5 or 6 prospects for interviews before the draft? Now the actual content of the interview may have made it obvious that it was a sham designed to satisfy a rule and if that is the case then that changes my view on this part of it. I think that the issue, particularly given the text messages, is that the choice was already made prior to the interviews taking place, which really flies in the face of the spirit of Rooney Rule. However, and this is fully admitting ignorance to the law in this area, I don't know if breaking the spirit of the Rooney rule will result in successful civil suits. It might make for some interesting infighting in the NFL though. |
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 1, 2022 19:53:05 GMT -6
Well, the Flores lawsuit looks like it is about to drag a lot to the surface. This is going to make the league’s management look like the fraternity of spoiled @$$holes that everyone already assumed them to be. One of the stats that’s being pointed out is that all the owners are “white” but 70% of the players are black. I do feel that the ownership makeup and culture within that group is one of the main reasons this has been such a frustrating conversation for years. I expect the NFL to launch a big initiative soon to lure some black billionaires to buy franchises or even expand the league so they can get at least one token black owner, if for no other reasons than PR. I wonder if Jay Z or Magic Johnson wants to own the WFT… Ownership of teams in other sports leagues -- MLB, NBA, international soccer, etc -- has changed a lot, and tend to be investment groups with majority/minority owners, often led by wealthy tech people, hedge fund managers, etc. (For some reason I keep getting emails asking me if I want to be an investor in MLB teams. No thanks.) The NFL has -- by all accounts intentionally - tried to keep individual or family ownership of teams, and also boasts that many teams have stayed within the same families for many generations. They say it promotes stability and a feeling of "owners" and "ownership," but the downside is that you have franchises now worth billions of dollars which were bought for tens of millions (or less?) by the deceased grandpa of junior who now "owns" the team, and whose entire wealth and identity is tied up in being the "owner" of an NFL team which in turn is often the dominant/most recognizable enterprise of many cities or even states. In other words, the NFL has treated the good ol' boy network of franchise ownership as a feature, not a bug. I would expect to see a lot of turnover of ownership of teams over the next 5 to 10 years. The below link is kind of wild, when you think about how the Broncos are projected to sell to an investment group (TBD which one) at a value of over $4 billion. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_ownersAs examples, the Bidwill family bough the Cardinals for $50k in 1932, and the Mara family founded the Giants in 1925 and the current main owner, is the grandson of the founder and son of the guy who owned/operated the Giants for 68 straight years, before he inherited his role. Imagine Steve Jobs passing away and bequeathing ownership and operation of Apple to his eldest child. |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Feb 1, 2022 20:42:45 GMT -6
I'll be curious too to see if and how this turns out different legally from something like say, Gibbs coming out of retirement to coach Washington several years ago. That seems like an example where a team identified their guy and hired him, and all other interviews were likely just a formality. Gruden to the Raiders, Kelly to the Eagles, maybe Meyer to the Jags all have a similar feel.
Those are probably all considered bad hires looking back (maybe not Kelly) but I'm curious if there's a legal distinction between those processes and what just happened with Flores.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Feb 1, 2022 20:53:23 GMT -6
I guess the issue of when the Giants knew Daboll was accepting the offer is a huge one.
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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 1, 2022 21:25:15 GMT -6
If the 31 owners and the Town of Green Bay each hired a "Senior Director of Coaching Operations" who is a former NFL coach, and made THEM responsible for hiring the head coach in the same way that NFL head coaches hire their assistants, I'd be willing to bet the NFL head coach numbers would more closely resemble the NFL assistant coach numbers of around 35% black coaches...
When most of the owners are probably preppy, rich white people who grew up in a WASP environment and have associated with WASP people their whole lives, and more than a few from that crowd are probably prejudiced (or even racist), and they are the ones hiring the head coaches, the numbers we have now are what you get...
When you look at the head coaches themselves, they came up through the ranks, they have been around, associated with, worked with, and strived together in the profession with, black folk their entire careers in terms of players and fellow assistant coaches, and so 1) They are more familiar with black folk than the WASP owners and 2) They are more in tune with the merits and intelligence of black coaching candidates in the hiring pool...
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CoachSP
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Post by CoachSP on Feb 2, 2022 9:48:00 GMT -6
This thread really got me looking at who (think more work experience and less identity group) gets hired for NFL coaching jobs compared with other sports. In the NBA it seems to be consistent with guys moving up the ranks, but there have been instances with guys basically moving from the court to the HC chair with little experience. Steve Nash spent two seasons as a consultant before landing his HC gig, Chauncey Billups less than a year as an assistant. But the NBA is seen more as a player's league- less strategic, more about relationships. If your superstar is on board with you, then you are okay. MLB, you can have an Aaron Boone move from the field, to the announcers booth, to the manager's spot because of his beliefs in analytics. Baseball is viewed as a game based on numbers, and analytics. If you understand the data, you can be the manager. But what about football, specifically to this thread the NFL. What is the requirement to be a good HC in the NFL, at least as seen by those hiring. Could that play a part in why we are having this discussion? Is having a "sexy" resume or who you're attached to more important in the NFL? Maybe scheme plays a role? In other words, does a guy have to be considered an understudy in a great offensive scheme? Seems like plenty of offensive coordinators coming off successful seasons getting looks. ie: Taylor after the Rams last SB appearance. Frank Reich after the Eagles SB win. Daboll after two years with a great young QB. I'd argue Leftwich got a little more steam after two years with Brady and their success. Is the "who you know" affecting this at all? I don't know the answers. Just trying to provide a different angle. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2022 11:23:44 GMT -6
If the 31 owners and the Town of Green Bay each hired a "Senior Director of Coaching Operations" who is a former NFL coach, and made THEM responsible for hiring the head coach in the same way that NFL head coaches hire their assistants, I'd be willing to bet the NFL head coach numbers would more closely resemble the NFL assistant coach numbers of around 35% black coaches... When most of the owners are probably preppy, rich white people who grew up in a WASP environment and have associated with WASP people their whole lives, and more than a few from that crowd are probably prejudiced (or even racist), and they are the ones hiring the head coaches, the numbers we have now are what you get... When you look at the head coaches themselves, they came up through the ranks, they have been around, associated with, worked with, and strived together in the profession with, black folk their entire careers in terms of players and fellow assistant coaches, and so 1) They are more familiar with black folk than the WASP owners and 2) They are more in tune with the merits and intelligence of black coaching candidates in the hiring pool... One thing I feel is part of it is that, in the case of the family owned franchises, some owners like to be very directly involved, either from the standpoint of managing it as their business or as just a rich guy passion project. Think of the Davis family with the Raiders, Daniel Snyder with the Redskins, or Jerry Jones with the Cowboys. That means that, not only are they looking to hire a football coach, but they’re also looking to hire someone they would like to hang out with at practice, do the draft war room stuff with, etc. It makes sense that a bunch of old rich white people, most of whom grew up that way, would pick coaches based as much on who they’d like to have dinner with or who fits their “mold” of a coach than on actual resumes and accomplishments. If anyone ever saw Robert Kraft’s old texts griping about “having to go hang out with the biggest @$$hole on earth, my Head Coach,” you’ll get a sense of what I’m talking about. I can’t help but think of BB was black, but had the same level of expertise (and same personality traits) he might never have gotten another HC opportunity with the Patriots after he was written off as too surly and unable to handle people with the Browns. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 2, 2022 12:14:56 GMT -6
If the 31 owners and the Town of Green Bay each hired a "Senior Director of Coaching Operations" who is a former NFL coach, and made THEM responsible for hiring the head coach in the same way that NFL head coaches hire their assistants, I'd be willing to bet the NFL head coach numbers would more closely resemble the NFL assistant coach numbers of around 35% black coaches... When most of the owners are probably preppy, rich white people who grew up in a WASP environment and have associated with WASP people their whole lives, and more than a few from that crowd are probably prejudiced (or even racist), and they are the ones hiring the head coaches, the numbers we have now are what you get... When you look at the head coaches themselves, they came up through the ranks, they have been around, associated with, worked with, and strived together in the profession with, black folk their entire careers in terms of players and fellow assistant coaches, and so 1) They are more familiar with black folk than the WASP owners and 2) They are more in tune with the merits and intelligence of black coaching candidates in the hiring pool... One thing I feel is part of it is that, in the case of the family owned franchises, some owners like to be very directly involved, either from the standpoint of managing it as their business or as just a rich guy passion project. Think of the Davis family with the Raiders, Daniel Snyder with the Redskins, or Jerry Jones with the Cowboys. That means that, not only are they looking to hire a football coach, but they’re also looking to hire someone they would like to hang out with at practice, do the draft war room stuff with, etc. It makes sense that a bunch of old rich white people, most of whom grew up that way, would pick coaches based as much on who they’d like to have dinner with or who fits their “mold” of a coach than on actual resumes and accomplishments. If anyone ever saw Robert Kraft’s old texts griping about “having to go hang out with the biggest @$$hole on earth, my Head Coach,” you’ll get a sense of what I’m talking about. I can’t help but think of BB was black, but had the same level of expertise (and same personality traits) he might never have gotten another HC opportunity with the Patriots after he was written off as too surly and unable to handle people with the Browns. Yup |
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Post by newcoryell on Feb 8, 2022 14:37:57 GMT -6
I find the issue with hiring NFL "Black" Head coaches to be a completely symbolic issue that presents no actual tangible benefit for the people that are supposedly being slighted. I'll leave my thoughts and ideas behind each hiring/coaching candidate below.
LEFTWICH: Probably should have gotten the Jaguars job...but I think that this is more about not wanting to work for a GM/Ownership group that wouldn't be beneficial for long term success. I know that most love Trevor Lawrence, but I see a more developed/talented Joe Flacco. Again, you can win there...but picking through the ashes of that culture/roster isn't worth the headache. Unlike most people, I don't think that Urban Meyer suddenly forgot how to coach. Jimmy J. was right when he told him to clear out that ENTIRE roster/staff. Don't really see Khan as some bigoted owner either. I just think he's clueless.
BIENEMY: I think it's simple. His background is checkered AND he carries the stigma of following some Andy Reid coaching staff flameouts. From a X's and O's standpoint...his offense is consistently built on explosive/freak of nature plays from his TE/WR and QB. That isn't going to carryover to other positions.
FLORES: I think telling your BILLIONAIRE owner NO, gets you fired. I don't really care what the request is....you deny your BOSS enough times and you are on borrowed time. I think his lawsuit is frivolous and I despise MANDATES for positions. Him comparing the modern NFL to a plantation is an insult to every Black man that is descended from the actual HELL that people went through. He should be dismissed completely for that analogy. It's language meant to bully those into agreement and based on logic or FACTS.
COACHING is about producing results. PERIOD. Most coaches in the NFL/NCAA/HS are replaceable. TRUE GREATNESS at any of those levels is incredibly hard to come by. Is Brian Flores or these other candidates any worse/better than these yearly rollouts? Nope. About the same. As a Black coach, I always admired Tony Dungy and Dennis Green....especially Dennis Green. The league has had PLENTY of black coaches....and they follow the same pattern of all coaches. Some are SOLID, a few are legendary and the vast majority are just below average and are waiting there turn on the turnstile.
RACE is just EVERYWHERE now....and it's draining from the joy/greatness of the game. There are enough destructive forces in life for us to start searching for MORE negativity. My heads not in the sand....I just think that this entire narrative is there to foster descent and NOT for the betterment of our game/culture.
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