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Post by fantom on Jan 21, 2022 18:14:26 GMT -6
I don't know what the numbers would look like if you looked at coordinators and position coaches, but I wish the discussion in the media didn't present this as if HC is the only NFL coaching job there is. 3 OCs and 9 DCs.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 21, 2022 18:18:15 GMT -6
Lots of white head coaches who have failed have gotten second and even third bites of the apple. It's good to see that some black coaches who were not successful the first time around are getting another chance. Well not yet. Some of them are getting interviews. No hires so far. That's the point. In the past, most of those guys wouldn't even get another interview. They would have to resign themselves to being a coordinator, at best, or maybe taking a college job.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 21, 2022 18:34:01 GMT -6
I don't know what the numbers would look like if you looked at coordinators and position coaches, but I wish the discussion in the media didn't present this as if HC is the only NFL coaching job there is. That's an outstanding point. Just like in HS / college there are a lot of guys out there who are either perfectly content or prefer not to have the life of a HFC. If the percentage of white guys who coach in the NFL is say 70% who are content not being a header and let's just assume the same for blacks, then maybe the lot to pick from is even smaller. We just assume they all want the shot but it's definitely not a life for everyone. I for one would want nothing to do with that lifestyle. I don't know if that is really true. I think that a much higher percentage than 30% of NFL coaches would be interested in being a HC if they felt the opportunity was there. I am sure that some in that content population you mention are self aware enough to recognize they don't have the skill set necessary for coordinator positions, much less the head job. So I am not sure if content is the appropriate word for not pursuing something out of reach. It is an awkward and potentially uncomfortable discussion to say the least. According to a Forbes article, minorities represented 35% of NFL asst coaches in January of 2021. I don't know if pointing out that HC jobs aren't the only NFL jobs properly addresses that statistic without being a little dismissive of the underlying concern. I understand the concerns, just as with the aforementioned issue of black qbs not being "smart enough" to play the position, I can certainly understand concern that some may be worried blacks are not considered "smart enough" for management. I will say this, I think it is somewhat humorous that people assume that NFL management knows what it is doing... just look at how inefficient the draft is compared to the amount of time, effort, and resources teams devote to it.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 21, 2022 19:08:51 GMT -6
I don't know what the numbers would look like if you looked at coordinators and position coaches, but I wish the discussion in the media didn't present this as if HC is the only NFL coaching job there is. 3 OCs and 9 DCs. I don't know how many are vacant and what percentage of currently-filled positions that represents, but its still not a big number obviously. I'm definitely not trying to dismiss the issue and I think there's a clear issue. My point is just that those may not be HC jobs but those are very important, well-paying, and I would guess in every case they would be considered "leadership" positions. I think it's worthwhile to know what the hiring landscape looks like for those spots as well, thanks for doing the research.
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Post by fantom on Jan 21, 2022 19:14:32 GMT -6
I don't know how many are vacant and what percentage of currently-filled positions that represents, but its still not a big number obviously. I'm definitely not trying to dismiss the issue and I think there's a clear issue. My point is just that those may not be HC jobs but those are very important, well-paying, and I would guess in every case they would be considered "leadership" positions. I think it's worthwhile to know what the hiring landscape looks like for those spots as well, thanks for doing the research. The NFL recognizes that coordinator jobs are big steps toward a HC job so they've been doing things like awarding draft picks to encourage teams to hire Black coordinators. I think the league office really wants to see improvement in this area but there are limits to what they can do.
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Post by Down 'n Out on Jan 22, 2022 6:46:55 GMT -6
Question, and I really don't know (white guy from a 99% white area, I can count the number of black coaches in our region on 1 hand), in the Black football community how much interest is there in coaching and doing what it takes to coach?
Is the NFL trying to solve a issue that doesn't exist (Black candidates being overlooked/prevented from becoming HCs? If there's little to no interest then there won't be many candidates.
I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule because it creates token candidates, in a lot of cases the Owner and GM have a guy in mind before the interviews take place most of the time but at least it gets Black candidates in the room and that's a big step.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2022 6:51:51 GMT -6
Question, and I really don't know (white guy from a 99% white area, I can count the number of black coaches in our region on 1 hand), in the Black football community how much interest is there in coaching and doing what it takes to coach? Is the NFL trying to solve a issue that doesn't exist (Black candidates being overlooked/prevented from becoming HCs? If there's little to no interest then there won't be many candidates. I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule because it creates token candidates in a lot of cases, the Owner and GM have a guy in mind before the interviews take place most of the time but at least it gets Black candidates in the room and that's a big step. That is not a question just for black coaches.
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Post by Defcord on Jan 22, 2022 7:17:49 GMT -6
Question, and I really don't know (white guy from a 99% white area, I can count the number of black coaches in our region on 1 hand), in the Black football community how much interest is there in coaching and doing what it takes to coach? Is the NFL trying to solve a issue that doesn't exist (Black candidates being overlooked/prevented from becoming HCs? If there's little to no interest then there won't be many candidates. I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule because it creates token candidates in a lot of cases, the Owner and GM have a guy in mind before the interviews take place most of the time but at least it gets Black candidates in the room and that's a big step. There’s only 32 jobs. If a quarter of them come open every year, that’s 8 jobs. If half went to individuals that aren’t white males, that leave 4 spots a year. Obviously that number is arbitrary but there definitely way more qualified and interested candidates than that.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 22, 2022 8:06:25 GMT -6
Question, and I really don't know (white guy from a 99% white area, I can count the number of black coaches in our region on 1 hand), in the Black football community how much interest is there in coaching and doing what it takes to coach? Is the NFL trying to solve a issue that doesn't exist (Black candidates being overlooked/prevented from becoming HCs? If there's little to no interest then there won't be many candidates. I'm not a fan of the Rooney Rule because it creates token candidates in a lot of cases, the Owner and GM have a guy in mind before the interviews take place most of the time but at least it gets Black candidates in the room and that's a big step. I don't think that is the case- which (in hindsight to what I said earlier about mentioning the large black population of players) is probably one of the reasons it is often mentioned that 70% of the players are minorities. To show that there are a lot of people involved in the sport at the professional level, yet a small portion of that pool go on to management. According to the Forbes article I referenced above, 35% of coaches in the NFL are minority, so that would extrapolate to 10-12 minority head coaches if in proportion to that population. I would say there does some to be some evidence that black candidates are overlooked in HC career paths, and I do believe a part of that is the deep rooted biases that I mentioned above in a post. Another example would be the Tomlin rant over the USC situation. He was right in that it would seem ridiculous for anyone to mention or validate a suggestion that Belichick or Andy Reid or Sean Payton would leave their NFL posts on their terms to coach at USC. There was no suggestion of Sean McVey leaving the Rams to coach the university in his own back yard, but it seemed plausible to float the idea of a coach from across the country with zero ties to USC. Why? Anytime you try to legislate human behavior, there will be issues and loopholes. Plenty have pointed out the work arounds and issues with things such as the Rooney Rule, but I don't know if there is another way to provide opportunities to overcome these biases. I am not sure how one overcomes the fact that the vast majority of the 31 billionaires who lead the ownership teams probably come from inherited wealth and have limited exposure to minorities working at higher levels.
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Post by Down 'n Out on Jan 22, 2022 8:28:22 GMT -6
Imo the fact that 35% of total NFL coaches are Black but there is only 1 NFL HC currently is very telling.
Those guys have shown an interest in and went into coaching. That statistic means much more than the 70% of players being Black. Playing and coaching obviously aren't the same thing, almost every one of us on here played and went into coaching but obviously most of our teammates did not.
It should be noted that the NFL has a shortage of several things: high quality Kickers, QBs to run the offenses the teams want, LTs capable of protecting the QBs the way they want,, etc
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Post by s73 on Jan 22, 2022 10:01:38 GMT -6
I'm just not a fan of legislating to anyone who they have to hire with their own money.
I get it, that leaves loopholes for racism and bias. However, I feel the slippery slope of legislating control over another's ownership and decision making of their own assets IMO is even more abhorrent.
Furthermore, if you really hang your hat on the equality argument I think you run the risk of some jokers out there who will start spouting about not enough whites getting opportunities as players on NFL rosters.
Sounds ridiculous but that's the world we are currently living in. Like I stated above, I'm all about merit based appointments. That goes for players, coaches or any other life endeavor.
I believe there are many blacks that are capable and the cream always rises to the top.
Let's try to trust people to make their own decisions about what's best for their own organizations. If they pass up the best man for the job based on bias and prejudice, well truthfully while they are denying a qualified candidate based on bigotry, they are also hurting themselves and their own organization and their pocket books as well.
Ultimately, money talks and more often than not I believe an organization will hire who they believe is best for the job regardless of race either b/c they are not racist or b/c they want to have success which leads to ticket sales, merchandising and a fatter wallet.
Ultimately the almighty dollar will course correct where needed. JMO
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 22, 2022 10:24:15 GMT -6
I'm just not a fan of legislating to anyone who they have to hire with their own money. I get it, that leaves loopholes for racism and bias. However, I feel the slippery slope of legislating control over another's ownership and decision making of their own assets IMO is even more abhorrent. Furthermore, if you really hang your hat on the equality argument I think you run the risk of some jokers out there who will start spouting about not enough whites getting opportunities as players on NFL rosters. Sounds ridiculous but that's the world we are currently living in. Like I stated above, I'm all about merit based appointments. That goes for players, coaches or any other life endeavor. I believe there are many blacks that are capable and the cream always rises to the top. Let's try to trust people to make their own decisions about what's best for their own organizations. If they pass up the best man for the job based on bias and prejudice, well truthfully while they are denying a qualified candidate based on bigotry, they are also hurting themselves and their own organization and their pocket books as well. Ultimately, money talks and more often than not I believe an organization will hire who they believe is best for the job regardless of race either b/c they are not racist or b/c they want to have success which leads to ticket sales, merchandising and a fatter wallet. Ultimately the almighty dollar will course correct where needed. JMO What you say is valid, however you must remember that NFL teams are franchises of the NFL. Therefore they do not operate with 100% independence as each franchise's decision impacts other franchise owners. This isn't a local mom and pop restaurant in the deep south choosing to fly a confederate battle flag and facing the consequences alone. This is a McDonald's restaurant flying the confederate battle flag in the deep south and potentially causing issues for the guy who owns a few Golden Arches restaurants in the middle of Iowa, or in Chicago, or in Vermont etc.
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Post by s73 on Jan 22, 2022 12:06:10 GMT -6
I'm just not a fan of legislating to anyone who they have to hire with their own money. I get it, that leaves loopholes for racism and bias. However, I feel the slippery slope of legislating control over another's ownership and decision making of their own assets IMO is even more abhorrent. Furthermore, if you really hang your hat on the equality argument I think you run the risk of some jokers out there who will start spouting about not enough whites getting opportunities as players on NFL rosters. Sounds ridiculous but that's the world we are currently living in. Like I stated above, I'm all about merit based appointments. That goes for players, coaches or any other life endeavor. I believe there are many blacks that are capable and the cream always rises to the top. Let's try to trust people to make their own decisions about what's best for their own organizations. If they pass up the best man for the job based on bias and prejudice, well truthfully while they are denying a qualified candidate based on bigotry, they are also hurting themselves and their own organization and their pocket books as well. Ultimately, money talks and more often than not I believe an organization will hire who they believe is best for the job regardless of race either b/c they are not racist or b/c they want to have success which leads to ticket sales, merchandising and a fatter wallet. Ultimately the almighty dollar will course correct where needed. JMO What you say is valid, however you must remember that NFL teams are franchises of the NFL. Therefore they do not operate with 100% independence as each franchise's decision impacts other franchise owners. This isn't a local mom and pop restaurant in the deep south choosing to fly a confederate battle flag and facing the consequences alone. This is a McDonald's restaurant flying the confederate battle flag in the deep south and potentially causing issues for the guy who owns a few Golden Arches restaurants in the middle of Iowa, or in Chicago, or in Vermont etc. No, I fully get that. But that dynamic is two-fold. They are also accountable to the other owners for perceived improprieties, governed by a commish and still want to make money. All this to say they are much better off hiring the best man for the job regardless of color. I think many mechanisms are in place for merit based hiring IMO and I feel it should stay that way. Again, JMO.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 22, 2022 12:20:27 GMT -6
What you say is valid, however you must remember that NFL teams are franchises of the NFL. Therefore they do not operate with 100% independence as each franchise's decision impacts other franchise owners. This isn't a local mom and pop restaurant in the deep south choosing to fly a confederate battle flag and facing the consequences alone. This is a McDonald's restaurant flying the confederate battle flag in the deep south and potentially causing issues for the guy who owns a few Golden Arches restaurants in the middle of Iowa, or in Chicago, or in Vermont etc. No, I fully get that. But that dynamic is two-fold. They are also accountable to the other owners for perceived improprieties, governed by a commish and still want to make money. All this to say they are much better off hiring the best man for the job regardless of color. I think many mechanisms are in place for merit based hiring IMO and I feel it should stay that way. Again, JMO. Then what do you suggest might create the numbers that have been mentioned...70% of players are minorities, approximately 35% of all coaches minorities, but under 10% minority HC/management positions prior to the Rooney Rule and an average of around 15% minority HC since it was instituted? Which mechanisms are in place? That is the issue. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the color of someone's skin should be the basis of hiring. What is being said is that there is a significant amount of evidence showing that the color of someone's skin may be preventing them from showing they are the best candidate. As I have pointed out, the owners come from part of our society that likely does not have much of a history of meaningful relationships and interactions with minorities. To draw a parallel to on the field prowess, does anyone really think Warren Moon was the only human born in the mid 1950's that could play QB at an elite level?
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Post by s73 on Jan 22, 2022 13:23:00 GMT -6
No, I fully get that. But that dynamic is two-fold. They are also accountable to the other owners for perceived improprieties, governed by a commish and still want to make money. All this to say they are much better off hiring the best man for the job regardless of color. I think many mechanisms are in place for merit based hiring IMO and I feel it should stay that way. Again, JMO. Then what do you suggest might create the numbers that have been mentioned...70% of players are minorities, approximately 35% of all coaches minorities, but under 10% minority HC/management positions prior to the Rooney Rule and an average of around 15% minority HC since it was instituted? Which mechanisms are in place? That is the issue. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the color of someone's skin should be the basis of hiring. What is being said is that there is a significant amount of evidence showing that the color of someone's skin may be preventing them from showing they are the best candidate. As I have pointed out, the owners come from part of our society that likely does not have much of a history of meaningful relationships and interactions with minorities. To draw a parallel to on the field prowess, does anyone really think Warren Moon was the only human born in the mid 1950's that could play QB at an elite level? I do think some suggest that color of skin should be the basis of hiring. Like I said above, if you start to tinker with hiring practices you run the slippery slope of then tinkering with why are so few non-blacks not playing in the NFL? Again, merit based hiring / drafting is my platform. If 15% of the blacks are now in HC/ upper management positions, that mirrors their share of the US population. I think outside of the Rooney rule & strong penalization based on EVIDENCE of discrimination, we leave the process alone. Otherwise we're going to get into a never ending spiral of "how come?" How come their aren't more white running backs? How come their aren't more white DB's? If you stick to merit based hiring / drafting practices and investigate where suspicions are apparent, the process should be respectable. I don't care that 70% of the NFL is black, or that few blacks are kickers. I care that through careful evaluation and processes that the best determined get the jobs they are seeking. So I guess I'm not calling for changes to the system. I think the numbers over time will fluctuate up and down. I do they hope the quality of the product meets it's best capacity regardless of color. I that means someday that 50% of HC's are black, awesome. If it doesn't, awesome. As long as the best of the best get their opportunities. I hope that happens but I don't believe we can tinker with it to project a certain outcome. I think worthy individuals will (in our current society) find a place for their talents.
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Post by carookie on Jan 22, 2022 14:07:14 GMT -6
Of the last 20 NFL head coaching hires 20% would be considered minority hires. Two (10%) were Black, one (5%) Mexican, and one (5%) was of Middle-Eastern descent; the rest were white. Of those, only three of them ever took a snap in an NFL regular season game, the vast majority (85%) never played in the NFL.
Why do I point out that last bit about NFL experience? Because I think this somewhat explains the differentiation between the 70% of players in the NFL are Black number, I have read here, compared with the number of coaches. The premise being, playing in the NFL isn't a prerequisite to being a HC- so citing that number appears to be somewhat disingenuous. Most of these HC hires started working as a GA or lower level coach out of college, which seems to have prepped them to work their way up the ladder and be a head coach later on.
As such, it probably makes more sense, if we want to look at percentages, to compare numbers of a more general population. Then that of NFL players.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 22, 2022 14:26:23 GMT -6
Of the last 20 NFL head coaching hires 20% would be considered minority hires. Two (10%) were Black, one (5%) Mexican, and one (5%) was of Middle-Eastern descent; the rest were white. Of those, only three of them ever took a snap in an NFL regular season game, the vast majority (85%) never played in the NFL. Why do I point out that last bit about NFL experience? Because I think this somewhat explains the differentiation between the 70% of players in the NFL are Black number, I have read here, compared with the number of coaches. The premise being, playing in the NFL isn't a prerequisite to being a HC- so citing that number appears to be somewhat disingenuous. Most of these HC hires started working as a GA or lower level coach out of college, which seems to have prepped them to work their way up the ladder and be a head coach later on. As such, it probably makes more sense, if we want to look at percentages, to compare numbers of a more general population. Then that of NFL players. A more general population like that of college football players? Which I would suspect might still find minorities in a much higher percentage than the HC representation. There are several issues in this topic. One of them is Labor vs Management (70% vs less than 10%)
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Post by fantom on Jan 22, 2022 14:39:44 GMT -6
Then what do you suggest might create the numbers that have been mentioned...70% of players are minorities, approximately 35% of all coaches minorities, but under 10% minority HC/management positions prior to the Rooney Rule and an average of around 15% minority HC since it was instituted? Which mechanisms are in place? That is the issue. I don't think anyone is suggesting that the color of someone's skin should be the basis of hiring. What is being said is that there is a significant amount of evidence showing that the color of someone's skin may be preventing them from showing they are the best candidate. As I have pointed out, the owners come from part of our society that likely does not have much of a history of meaningful relationships and interactions with minorities. To draw a parallel to on the field prowess, does anyone really think Warren Moon was the only human born in the mid 1950's that could play QB at an elite level? I do think some suggest that color of skin should be the basis of hiring. Like I said above, if you start to tinker with hiring practices you run the slippery slope of then tinkering with why are so few non-blacks not playing in the NFL? Again, merit based hiring / drafting is my platform. If 15% of the blacks are now in HC/ upper management positions, that mirrors their share of the US population. I think outside of the Rooney rule & strong penalization based on EVIDENCE of discrimination, we leave the process alone. Otherwise we're going to get into a never ending spiral of "how come?" How come their aren't more white running backs? How come their aren't more white DB's? If you stick to merit based hiring / drafting practices and investigate where suspicions are apparent, the process should be respectable. I don't care that 70% of the NFL is black, or that few blacks are kickers. I care that through careful evaluation and processes that the best determined get the jobs they are seeking. So I guess I'm not calling for changes to the system. I think the numbers over time will fluctuate up and down. I do they hope the quality of the product meets it's best capacity regardless of color. I that means someday that 50% of HC's are black, awesome. If it doesn't, awesome. As long as the best of the best get their opportunities. I hope that happens but I don't believe we can tinker with it to project a certain outcome. I think worthy individuals will (in our current society) find a place for their talents. Nobody's trying to legislate who a team has to hire and nobody thinks that anybosy should be hired just because of their race. What's being said is that teams should take a closer look at candidates, to put aside their preconceived idea of what a HC should look like. Go into interviews with an open mind instead of just giving some guys a token interview in order to check off another box. Mike Tomlin is a perfect example of how the Rooney Rule should work. Tomlin wasn't considered a hot candidate. He wasn't a big name college coach or a highly successful coordinator. He was a position coach who was only granted an interview to satisfy the rule. The Steelers took the interview seriously, though, and given a chance Tomlin aced the interview and got the job. That's all anybody wants- a real chance.
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Post by tripsclosed on Jan 22, 2022 15:03:23 GMT -6
If this has ever been an issue anywhere: 1: Across the total population of football players, across all levels of football, and across all ethnicities, very few players are interested in being a kicker to begin with; the only position people might be less interested in is punter (sometimes the same guy in HS) 2: Speaking as an outsider looking in (please feel free to correct me if i am off-base, here), black athletic culture, and black masculine culture in general, is overtly and/or covertly/unconsciously dismissive of and looks down on the position of kicker, and more highly values positions like RB, WR, CB, QB, DE, S etc. Basically, not too many players are interested in being a kicker to begin with. And, of that total pool of players, even fewer black players are interested in being a kicker than their other ethnic counterparts.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 22, 2022 15:08:37 GMT -6
If this has ever been an issue anywhere: 1: Across the total population of football players, across all levels of football, and across all ethnicities, very few players are interested in being a kicker to begin with; the only position people might be less interested in is punter (sometimes the same guy in HS) 2: Speaking as an outsider looking in (please feel free to correct me if i am off-base, here), black athletic culture, and black masculine culture in general, is overtly and/or covertly/unconsciously dismissive of and looks down on the position of kicker, and more highly values positions like RB, WR, CB, QB, DE, S etc. Basically, not too many players are interested in being a kicker to begin with. And, of that total pool of players, even fewer black players are interested in being a kicker than their other ethnic counterparts. Interesting perspective. I think it is more because American Football kickers are almost universally football (soccer) players, and in the USA that sport is populated by those atop the socio-economic ladder. Which in the US is not generally blacks. It does bring up an interesting question as to why we don't see more Hispanic kickers.
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Post by tripsclosed on Jan 22, 2022 15:12:25 GMT -6
Something I have seen little to no discussion on:
57.5% of the players in the NFL are black, and as of right now, pending hiring process, 1 HC is black. Do the black players in the NFL have an issue with the low representation of black folks among HCs? If they do, are they vocal about it? If not, why not? If they are, are they using their bargaining power to address it? If not, why not? Seems kind of important to consider what the players themselves think on this, as the players are the ones working for the HCs, not us folks out here in the general population.
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Post by carookie on Jan 22, 2022 15:17:26 GMT -6
Of the last 20 NFL head coaching hires 20% would be considered minority hires. Two (10%) were Black, one (5%) Mexican, and one (5%) was of Middle-Eastern descent; the rest were white. Of those, only three of them ever took a snap in an NFL regular season game, the vast majority (85%) never played in the NFL. Why do I point out that last bit about NFL experience? Because I think this somewhat explains the differentiation between the 70% of players in the NFL are Black number, I have read here, compared with the number of coaches. The premise being, playing in the NFL isn't a prerequisite to being a HC- so citing that number appears to be somewhat disingenuous. Most of these HC hires started working as a GA or lower level coach out of college, which seems to have prepped them to work their way up the ladder and be a head coach later on. As such, it probably makes more sense, if we want to look at percentages, to compare numbers of a more general population. Then that of NFL players. A more general population like that of college football players? Which I would suspect might still find minorities in a much higher percentage than the HC representation. There are several issues in this topic. One of them is Labor vs Management (70% vs less than 10%) 1) I don't doubt you'd find more minorities in college football than white players. Though I imagine those numbers would be closer than in the NFL, especially when considering colleges at all levels (FBS through NAIA). But that itself would not be the population I think you should look at. The most app population to look at would probably be those who get into coaching at that level (GA, college position coach) and remain for more than just a year. If you want to argue that there are societal factors at play here I would agree, but that would be getting closer to the root of things. 2) The labor vs management topic can mean whatever you want paint it to mean, I don't really know what you are driving with there (racial population of management should mirror labor maybe?) Regardless there is strong evidence that simply being a player in the NFL does not provide you a direct path to work your way into management (HC). Being bigger, faster, and stronger isnt a pre-requisite to being a HC (as it is a player); it is a disjointed step to take. Most new HC hires spent there early and mid 20s training to be management (doing grunt work coaching), while labor was busy being labor.
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Post by carookie on Jan 22, 2022 15:25:49 GMT -6
If this has ever been an issue anywhere: 1: Across the total population of football players, across all levels of football, and across all ethnicities, very few players are interested in being a kicker to begin with; the only position people might be less interested in is punter (sometimes the same guy in HS) 2: Speaking as an outsider looking in (please feel free to correct me if i am off-base, here), black athletic culture, and black masculine culture in general, is overtly and/or covertly/unconsciously dismissive of and looks down on the position of kicker, and more highly values positions like RB, WR, CB, QB, DE, S etc. Basically, not too many players are interested in being a kicker to begin with. And, of that total pool of players, even fewer black players are interested in being a kicker than their other ethnic counterparts. Interesting perspective. I think it is more because American Football kickers are almost universally football (soccer) players, and in the USA that sport is populated by those atop the socio-economic ladder. Which in the US is not generally blacks. It does bring up an interesting question as to why we don't see more Hispanic kickers. I am a Mexican-American man, who grew up in a primarily Mexican American community, and have known several Hispanic kickers in the NFL. I think there are several reasons- 1- For a long time, football wasn't that big in the Mexican community. Thankfully, it has grown in the past few decades. 2- As the spread of soccer style kickers grew, there was an influx of Hispanic kickers (Zendejas, Villanueva, etc). But as soccer grew in popularity in the US, it grew in popularity within other communities. So now, you'll get as many non-Hispanic soccer players out there as you will Hispanic. 3- Kicker is a very specialized position, and a lot of making it to the higher levels (D1 scholly type) involves getting specialized (see expensive) training. I've been lucky enough to have had a couple of FBS level kickers be on teams I've coached. Both had kicking coaches on the side. This may be cost prohibitive for many in the poorer Hispanic communities.
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Post by s73 on Jan 22, 2022 15:29:00 GMT -6
I do think some suggest that color of skin should be the basis of hiring. Like I said above, if you start to tinker with hiring practices you run the slippery slope of then tinkering with why are so few non-blacks not playing in the NFL? Again, merit based hiring / drafting is my platform. If 15% of the blacks are now in HC/ upper management positions, that mirrors their share of the US population. I think outside of the Rooney rule & strong penalization based on EVIDENCE of discrimination, we leave the process alone. Otherwise we're going to get into a never ending spiral of "how come?" How come their aren't more white running backs? How come their aren't more white DB's? If you stick to merit based hiring / drafting practices and investigate where suspicions are apparent, the process should be respectable. I don't care that 70% of the NFL is black, or that few blacks are kickers. I care that through careful evaluation and processes that the best determined get the jobs they are seeking. So I guess I'm not calling for changes to the system. I think the numbers over time will fluctuate up and down. I do they hope the quality of the product meets it's best capacity regardless of color. I that means someday that 50% of HC's are black, awesome. If it doesn't, awesome. As long as the best of the best get their opportunities. I hope that happens but I don't believe we can tinker with it to project a certain outcome. I think worthy individuals will (in our current society) find a place for their talents. Nobody's trying to legislate who a team has to hire and nobody thinks that anybosy should be hired just because of their race. What's being said is that teams should take a closer look at candidates, to put aside their preconceived idea of what a HC should look like. Go into interviews with an open mind instead of just giving some guys a token interview in order to check off another box. Mike Tomlin is a perfect example of how the Rooney Rule should work. Tomlin wasn't considered a hot candidate. He wasn't a big name college coach or a highly successful coordinator. He was a position coach who was only granted an interview to satisfy the rule. The Steelers took the interview seriously, though, and given a chance Tomlin aced the interview and got the job. That's all anybody wants- a real chance. I guess Fantom that brings me back to a point I made earlier. How do we know that isn't already happening? That's why outside of the Rooney rule, I'm not a fan of anything more happening related to this situation b/c frankly, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. If a black coach is interviewed and doesn't get the job it becomes tokenism. On the other hand, if he does it becomes "taking it seriously". I am simply suggesting that maybe many of them are taken seriously more so than we give credit for. And for those who don't I hope they get outed. However, I don't think it's for any if us to say unless we are in on the process.
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Post by s73 on Jan 22, 2022 15:32:00 GMT -6
If this has ever been an issue anywhere: 1: Across the total population of football players, across all levels of football, and across all ethnicities, very few players are interested in being a kicker to begin with; the only position people might be less interested in is punter (sometimes the same guy in HS) 2: Speaking as an outsider looking in (please feel free to correct me if i am off-base, here), black athletic culture, and black masculine culture in general, is overtly and/or covertly/unconsciously dismissive of and looks down on the position of kicker, and more highly values positions like RB, WR, CB, QB, DE, S etc. Basically, not too many players are interested in being a kicker to begin with. And, of that total pool of players, even fewer black players are interested in being a kicker than their other ethnic counterparts. I don't know if your points are valid or not, but it was simply an example I was using to prove a broader point.
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Post by tripsclosed on Jan 22, 2022 15:34:08 GMT -6
If this has ever been an issue anywhere: 1: Across the total population of football players, across all levels of football, and across all ethnicities, very few players are interested in being a kicker to begin with; the only position people might be less interested in is punter (sometimes the same guy in HS) 2: Speaking as an outsider looking in (please feel free to correct me if i am off-base, here), black athletic culture, and black masculine culture in general, is overtly and/or covertly/unconsciously dismissive of and looks down on the position of kicker, and more highly values positions like RB, WR, CB, QB, DE, S etc. Basically, not too many players are interested in being a kicker to begin with. And, of that total pool of players, even fewer black players are interested in being a kicker than their other ethnic counterparts. I don't know if your points are valid or not, but it was simply an analogy I was using to prove a broader point. Oh yeah i gotchu, i didnt take it as you were arguing that is an issue, i was just saying if that has ever been brought up as an issue by someone, somewhere
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Post by Down 'n Out on Jan 22, 2022 17:24:57 GMT -6
Interesting perspective. I think it is more because American Football kickers are almost universally football (soccer) players, and in the USA that sport is populated by those atop the socio-economic ladder. Which in the US is not generally blacks. It does bring up an interesting question as to why we don't see more Hispanic kickers. I am a Mexican-American man, who grew up in a primarily Mexican American community, and have known several Hispanic kickers in the NFL. I think there are several reasons- 1- For a long time, football wasn't that big in the Mexican community. Thankfully, it has grown in the past few decades. 2- As the spread of soccer style kickers grew, there was an influx of Hispanic kickers (Zendejas, Villanueva, etc). But as soccer grew in popularity in the US, it grew in popularity within other communities. So now, you'll get as many non-Hispanic soccer players out there as you will Hispanic. 3- Kicker is a very specialized position, and a lot of making it to the higher levels (D1 scholly type) involves getting specialized (see expensive) training. I've been lucky enough to have had a couple of FBS level kickers be on teams I've coached. Both had kicking coaches on the side. This may be cost prohibitive for many in the poorer Hispanic communities. Our kicker is Hispanic and a soccer player, he played in 8th grade, then didn't in 9th. His father puts a lot of pressure on him quit wasting his time and work at the family restaurants more(he already works there on the weekends and a night or two after practice). Idk how common this situation is but it's a factor and kept him from playing for 1 year and if he wasn't so adamant about playing would prevent him from playing at all(his older brothers weren't active in sports). Very similar story to a lot of people in my parents generation where they had to quit school or couldn't play sports because they had to work either a job(coal mines) or work in the garden/on the farm to provide for the family.
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Post by carookie on Jan 22, 2022 18:16:40 GMT -6
I am a Mexican-American man, who grew up in a primarily Mexican American community, and have known several Hispanic kickers in the NFL. I think there are several reasons- 1- For a long time, football wasn't that big in the Mexican community. Thankfully, it has grown in the past few decades. 2- As the spread of soccer style kickers grew, there was an influx of Hispanic kickers (Zendejas, Villanueva, etc). But as soccer grew in popularity in the US, it grew in popularity within other communities. So now, you'll get as many non-Hispanic soccer players out there as you will Hispanic. 3- Kicker is a very specialized position, and a lot of making it to the higher levels (D1 scholly type) involves getting specialized (see expensive) training. I've been lucky enough to have had a couple of FBS level kickers be on teams I've coached. Both had kicking coaches on the side. This may be cost prohibitive for many in the poorer Hispanic communities. Our kicker is Hispanic and a soccer player, he played in 8th grade, then didn't in 9th. His father puts a lot of pressure on him quit wasting his time and work at the family restaurants more(he already works there on the weekends and a night or two after practice). Idk how common this situation is but it's a factor and kept him from playing for 1 year and if he wasn't so adamant about playing would prevent him from playing at all(his older brothers weren't active in sports). Very similar story to a lot of people in my parents generation where they had to quit school or couldn't play sports because they had to work either a job(caol mines) or work in the garden/on the farm to provide for the family. I imagine it mostly has to do with socio-economics, as does a lot of what we are talking about here. The specific city I grew up in was primarily middle class and lower middle class (majority Mexican-American); if I go 5 minutes east its almost all poorer families and migrant farmers (almost all Mexican-American). If I got 2 minutes west, its mostly middle class and upper middle class (mostly Mexican-American). I knew a guy who lived in the wealthier part out west (Mexican-American) whose uncle kicked in the NFL. There was a couple of guys from the middle class area (Mexican-Americans) who kicked D1 and got looks from the NFL. Nothing out of the poorer community.
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Post by spartan on Jan 22, 2022 19:41:41 GMT -6
This might be an unpopular take, but Taking a job in a dysfunctional organization that generally has no QB which is the most important position will lead to unemployment. Regardless of ethnicity, you will be on the hot seat, because it deflects from the owner and bad management.
If you look at the Steelers, model of stability and a qb Same with New England. Greenbay is another example. Drafts well been stable at QB 2 coaches in last 10 years.
Dysfunctional franchises, Raiders, Tampa, Jets, Chargers, Texans, Detroit, Cleveland, Miami, Cardinals(until recently) Chicago, Colts etc. These are where turnover is high and seems to attract a lot of minority hires. However, race cannot overcome dysfunction. Jim Irsay is a alcoholic idiot and yet he fired dungy caldwell while having a stable Qb situation generally so Its very unpredictable.
Now, Saying Eric Bienemy will be successful because he was with Andy Reid, I will argue is more likely than anyone with Belicheck because Reid is a teacher and his tree tends to succeed. The outlier for Bill is Brian Flores, but Brian took a job on a bad team who drafted a bad QB and couldn't get Watson.
I think it is better to look at franchise HFC vs Race turnover rather than ethnicity.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 22, 2022 20:43:36 GMT -6
This might be an unpopular take, but Taking a job in a dysfunctional organization that generally has no QB which is the most important position will lead to unemployment. Regardless of ethnicity, you will be on the hot seat, because it deflects from the owner and bad management. If you look at the Steelers, model of stability and a qb Same with New England. Greenbay is another example. Drafts well been stable at QB 2 coaches in last 10 years. Dysfunctional franchises, Raiders, Tampa, Jets, Chargers, Texans, Detroit, Cleveland, Miami, Cardinals(until recently) Chicago, Colts etc. These are where turnover is high and seems to attract a lot of minority hires. However, race cannot overcome dysfunction. Jim Irsay is a alcoholic idiot and yet he fired dungy caldwell while having a stable Qb situation generally so Its very unpredictable. Now, Saying Eric Bienemy will be successful because he was with Andy Reid, I will argue is more likely than anyone with Belicheck because Reid is a teacher and his tree tends to succeed. The outlier for Bill is Brian Flores, but Brian took a job on a bad team who drafted a bad QB and couldn't get Watson. I think it is better to look at franchise HFC vs Race turnover rather than ethnicity. I don't think your first paragraph is unpopular at all. I think as much as it pains us as coaches (or ex coaches), it is simply a fact that coaches are not of the utmost importance. Joe Gibbs and Bill Walsh (Stanford) Jimmy Johnson, Ditka are just four examples of lightning not striking the same the second time around. Ed Orgeron and Les Miles have as many National Titles as Bob Stoops, Steve Spurrier and Lou Holtz (the last two further examples of not having everything fall into place at later points in their careers) and more than Bo Schembechler. Success is definitely a function of right people, right fit, right place, right time. That said, I am not sure that looking at turnover really examines the fact that with more than a 1/3 of NFL coaches being minorities, such a small percentage are given the opportunity for the top spot.
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