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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 11:51:01 GMT -6
Not trying to spark a political debate but think this is timely.
In a league where ~70% of players are black there is currently only one black HC (Mike Tomlin).
Two African-Americans who are former NFL coaches are having success at their current jobs - Todd Bowles (DC, Buccaneers) and Leslie Frazier (DC, Bills).
Also there is Jim Caldwell, who took Colts to a Super Bowl, had a winning record with Lions and got them to two playoffs (the LIONS for chrissakes).
Then there is Eric Bienemy, OC of the Chiefs, and Byron Leftwich, OC for the Bucs. Parenthetically - the latter played QB for the Jaguars who are in the market.
Will be interesting to see if any of them get HC opportunities this hiring season.
Thoughts?
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moose18
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"If it didn't matter who won or lost, they wouldn't keep score"
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Post by moose18 on Jan 21, 2022 11:55:26 GMT -6
Lot of openings right now. I think between the men you mentioned, plus Flores and Morris, I could see 3 or 4 of them landing jobs in the coming days
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 12:05:12 GMT -6
Lot of openings right now. I think between the men you mentioned, plus Flores and Morris, I could see 3 or 4 of them landing jobs in the coming days I left out Brian Flores and Raheem Morris, thanks for the additions. |
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Post by Defcord on Jan 21, 2022 12:06:17 GMT -6
There's 32 jobs that everyone in the world want so it's always going to be a weird deal. There are just so few opportunities that it probably will take more time to move along any kind of change in hiring practices, not just in race.
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 12:28:38 GMT -6
There's 32 jobs that everyone in the world want so it's always going to be a weird deal. There are just so few opportunities that it probably will take more time to move along any kind of change in hiring practices, not just in race. And yet the "Rooney Rule" has been in place for over a decade. I'm old enough to remember when the prevailing thinking was blacks weren't "smart enough" to play QB in NFL. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2022 12:36:52 GMT -6
There's 32 jobs that everyone in the world want so it's always going to be a weird deal. There are just so few opportunities that it probably will take more time to move along any kind of change in hiring practices, not just in race. And yet the "Rooney Rule" has been in place for over a decade. I'm old enough to remember when the prevailing thinking was blacks weren't "smart enough" to play QB in NFL. By your own op, the rooney is unjust. In more ways than one. |
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Post by Defcord on Jan 21, 2022 12:40:13 GMT -6
There's 32 jobs that everyone in the world want so it's always going to be a weird deal. There are just so few opportunities that it probably will take more time to move along any kind of change in hiring practices, not just in race. And yet the "Rooney Rule" has been in place for over a decade. I'm old enough to remember when the prevailing thinking was blacks weren't "smart enough" to play QB in NFL. Yeah I am with you. I just think some of the slowing in progress is that there such a limited amount opportunities to allow progress to incubate. The QB believe is absolutely despicable and there are still lingering thoughts in that regard. Even at the high school level I have heard guys talk about the "athletic QB," who is usually black and the "throwing qb," who is usually white. There's definitely some lingering of the old ways that I think are better gone. I just think that it is going to take some time to get there. And NFL head coaching will be even slower because there's only 32 spots. |
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 12:44:34 GMT -6
And yet the "Rooney Rule" has been in place for over a decade. I'm old enough to remember when the prevailing thinking was blacks weren't "smart enough" to play QB in NFL. By your own op, the rooney is unjust. In more ways than one. Explain (if you can), please. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2022 12:48:01 GMT -6
By your own op, the rooney is unjust. In more ways than one. Explain (if you can), please. Well 100 pct of ownership is white. That is not equal. 70 pct of players is not equal. the coaching ranks I would guess are not equal. So there is a problem. The rooney rule was used to combat inequality but only unequally. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2022 12:56:24 GMT -6
And I think the super majority of these guys will get a job over next 2 years
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 13:14:31 GMT -6
And I think the super majority of these guys will get a job over next 2 years What is a "super majority" to you? |
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Post by fantom on Jan 21, 2022 13:23:23 GMT -6
Lot of openings right now. I think between the men you mentioned, plus Flores and Morris, I could see 3 or 4 of them landing jobs in the coming days I left out Brian Flores and Raheem Morris, thanks for the additions. A guy who's getting interviews is NE assistant Jerod Mayo. He's from my old area in Virginia. If he gets a job that'll be two NFL HCs-Tonlin is the other- who were players on teams I coached against. |
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Post by s73 on Jan 21, 2022 13:25:52 GMT -6
I guess the issue I have about monitoring race as a pre-indicator for hiring practices is that it doesn't take into account the interview process.
We don't really know what goes on in the interview. Maybe a team has some strong interest in a minority candidate but for whatever reason the process didn't go well or whatever.
I guess the bigger point I'm trying to make is, if you interview 8 guys for a spot and let's say 7 of them are white and 1 is black, essentially to hire the best guy, in order for the best hire to be black, he has to be better than the other 7. On the other hand, one of the white coaches ALSO has to be better than the other 7 to be hired but theirs' still a 7 out of 8 chance the new hire will be white.
Having said all of this, I'm glad we have a Rooney rule, but I don't necessarily think it not leading to more hires can be the sole judge of the rule. I would LIKE to think the rule was put in place to ensure that more candidates of color get a CHANCE to climb the ladder due to interview opportunities they may not have otherwise gotten, but in the end I still believe hiring who the organization perceives to be the best man for the job is always the best practice regardless of color.
I know it's not a perfect system, but at the end of the day no perfect system exists in any line of work.
But I will always be a fan of merit for any endeavor over demographics. And I hope that in 2022, owners in these positions also feel the same way and honestly hire based on merit. That to me ensures justice in the system.
JMO.
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Post by carookie on Jan 21, 2022 13:30:44 GMT -6
I get the thought that the league is mostly black, ergo their should be more head coaches who are black. But to me this relies somewhat on the premise that someone should have been a player to be a coach- which I disagree with.
There is a push right now to see more female coaches in the NFL, there are 0 females in the NFL. If we stick with the line of thinking implied that pct of players should be represented in coaches, then women would never break into the ranks of coaching in the NFL.
Now I get it, playing in the NFL lends itself to having better connections in the NFL, and those connections should create more opportunities to get HC jobs. As such there probably is some racial bias in the fact that there are currently so few black head coaches. BUT I also know that being a player is not a pre-requisite to be a coach; ergo simply looking at the demographics of the NFL players and comparing it to that of the coaches is misleading.
In a nation that is only 15% Black, and realizing that head coaches can come from outside the former NFL player ranks, it makes more sense that the percentage of Black NFL head coaches would be significantly lower than the percentage of Black NFL players.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2022 13:44:46 GMT -6
And I think the super majority of these guys will get a job over next 2 years What is a "super majority" to you? Hopefully all of them. |
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Post by 19delta on Jan 21, 2022 14:16:00 GMT -6
I thought that Flores got a raw deal in Miami. Guy made chicken salad out of chicken $hit for 2 years. The fact that he won 19 games with one of the worst rosters in all of pro sports is astounding.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 21, 2022 14:18:27 GMT -6
Lots of white head coaches who have failed have gotten second and even third bites of the apple. It's good to see that some black coaches who were not successful the first time around are getting another chance.
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 14:45:39 GMT -6
Lots of white head coaches who have failed have gotten second and even third bites of the apple. It's good to see that some black coaches who were not successful the first time around are getting another chance. Well not yet. Some of them are getting interviews. No hires so far. |
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Post by fantom on Jan 21, 2022 15:01:31 GMT -6
Lots of white head coaches who have failed have gotten second and even third bites of the apple. It's good to see that some black coaches who were not successful the first time around are getting another chance. Well not yet. Some of them are getting interviews. No hires so far. There has been a suggestion that the hiring process would be more fair if teams waited until after the Super Bowl. It could be that, while that's not an official police yet, the league is encouraging them do do it voluntarily. Why not? There's no real hurry since they don't have to recruit. |
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Post by newcoryell on Jan 21, 2022 15:12:30 GMT -6
As a black man, I simply think that many of these owners/GMs simply do not connect with these Black men in the ways that they can some of the other white candidates. I think that Caldwell and Flores will definitely get shots in the league...but what I don't want is a round of tokenism in which you hire Black coaches simply to shut people up and don't streamline for the BEST candidate. I hate the fact that the percentage of Black Players in the league is brought up to justify WHY there should be more black coaches.
To simplify: I don't like QUOTAS. I don't want to be somewhere that I'm not wanted. Hire/Fire me based on a equal basis of my success. Period.
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Post by newcoryell on Jan 21, 2022 15:13:45 GMT -6
I think that Leftwich shows all the traits to be a successful HC...which is why he shouldn't go to Jax. Tomlin has landed and performed with the best organizations in the NFL.
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Post by tog on Jan 21, 2022 15:19:08 GMT -6
As a black man, I simply think that many of these owners/GMs simply do not connect with these Black men in the ways that they can some of the other white candidates. I think that Caldwell and Flores will definitely get shots in the league...but what I don't want is a round of tokenism in which you hire Black coaches simply to shut people up and don't streamline for the BEST candidate. I hate the fact that the percentage of Black Players in the league is brought up to justify WHY there should be more black coaches. To simplify: I don't like QUOTAS. I don't want to be somewhere that I'm not wanted. Hire/Fire me based on a equal basis of my success. Period. yes sir so much this |
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Post by blb on Jan 21, 2022 15:29:42 GMT -6
It is interesting the number of NFL franchises who have never had an African-American HC, or had one and gave them only one year (Packers, Texans, Cardinals).
Not including an Interim HC like Mel Tucker (Jaguars) who is killing it at Michigan State currently.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 21, 2022 15:44:58 GMT -6
Lots of white head coaches who have failed have gotten second and even third bites of the apple. It's good to see that some black coaches who were not successful the first time around are getting another chance. Well not yet. Some of them are getting interviews. No hires so far. This would be Caldwell's 3rd chance. Not saying he doesn't deserve it- I could live with him being the Bears' coach- just a correction. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 21, 2022 15:50:40 GMT -6
I think that Leftwich shows all the traits to be a successful HC...which is why he shouldn't go to Jax. Tomlin has landed and performed with the best organizations in the NFL. I see Leftwich as the next Matt Nagy. Works for an offensive coach who probably has a heavy hand in play calling/game planning (although probably not as much as Andy Reid) and a talented QB who can make chicken salad out of chicken {censored}. |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jan 21, 2022 15:59:22 GMT -6
I don't know what the numbers would look like if you looked at coordinators and position coaches, but I wish the discussion in the media didn't present this as if HC is the only NFL coaching job there is.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 21, 2022 16:29:00 GMT -6
As a black man, I simply think that many of these owners/GMs simply do not connect with these Black men in the ways that they can some of the other white candidates. I think this is the biggest reason. Those in the ownership positions of NFL franchises simply do not associate with persons of color on a regular basis. Its just a socio economic fact, and there are deep seeded biases involved. A great example is the Senate Minorities comments the other day, as well as Chuck Todd's comments a few weeks ago where they inadvertently showed these deep biases (McConnell by differentiating between African Americans and "Americans", and Todd doing the same with Parents of color and "parents".) And we can't forget Gruden's emails. I have always found this interesting as well, particularly given the underlying tone of the sentiments. A minority race occupies the vast majority of player spots in the NFL and NBA, which seems to demonstrate merit based decisions are being made. I suppose the issue is a meritocracy of labor vs meritocracy of management one in these cases, which is understandable. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 21, 2022 16:35:11 GMT -6
As a black man, I simply think that many of these owners/GMs simply do not connect with these Black men in the ways that they can some of the other white candidates. I think that Caldwell and Flores will definitely get shots in the league...but what I don't want is a round of tokenism in which you hire Black coaches simply to shut people up and don't streamline for the BEST candidate. I hate the fact that the percentage of Black Players in the league is brought up to justify WHY there should be more black coaches. To simplify: I don't like QUOTAS. I don't want to be somewhere that I'm not wanted. Hire/Fire me based on a equal basis of my success. Period.
Agreed. So much of any hiring process is "Who Ya Know", not necessarily "What Ya Know". I don't see Jerry Jones hanging around in the same social circles as Byron Leftwich. With that being said, I will lose my mind if someone like Urban Myers lands another high end coaching gig while Leftwich or other quality black candidates aren't.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 21, 2022 16:45:17 GMT -6
As a black man, I simply think that many of these owners/GMs simply do not connect with these Black men in the ways that they can some of the other white candidates. I think that Caldwell and Flores will definitely get shots in the league...but what I don't want is a round of tokenism in which you hire Black coaches simply to shut people up and don't streamline for the BEST candidate. I hate the fact that the percentage of Black Players in the league is brought up to justify WHY there should be more black coaches. To simplify: I don't like QUOTAS. I don't want to be somewhere that I'm not wanted. Hire/Fire me based on a equal basis of my success. Period.
Agreed. So much of any hiring process is "Who Ya Know", not necessarily "What Ya Know". I don't see Jerry Jones hanging around in the same social circles as Byron Leftwich. With that being said, I will lose my mind if someone like Urban Myers lands another high end coaching gig while Leftwich or other quality black candidates aren't.
I will say that I think it goes a bit deeper than that. Not sure that those 32 Billionaires are hanging in the same social circles as Kyle Shanahan, Matt Lafleur, Sean McVey either. Nor Matt Rhule, Dan Campbell, Nick Sirianni, Brandon Staley, or Arthur Smith. So I don't think it is who they know directly. |
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Post by s73 on Jan 21, 2022 17:28:39 GMT -6
I don't know what the numbers would look like if you looked at coordinators and position coaches, but I wish the discussion in the media didn't present this as if HC is the only NFL coaching job there is. That's an outstanding point. Just like in HS / college there are a lot of guys out there who are either perfectly content or prefer not to have the life of a HFC. If the percentage of white guys who coach in the NFL is say 70% who are content not being a header and let's just assume the same for blacks, then maybe the lot to pick from is even smaller. We just assume they all want the shot but it's definitely not a life for everyone. I for one would want nothing to do with that lifestyle. |
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