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Post by larrymoe on Nov 10, 2021 11:33:50 GMT -6
Again, this is still a d1 football team. I would imagine that they have full time defensive coaches and they platoon practice. This is not a high school team that puts all their best players on offense and practices defense 10 minutes a day. This thread has just taken a weird turn in my opinion by worry about things like that. On every college football I coached (assistant not HC) there were always players that crossed sides. In fact we would actively recruit each others kids. Hey why be a third team DT when you could start at OT ETC. You don't see it as much in major college but it happens at the lower levels...Slow RB's that could find a hole always make great ILB's I know it's only D3 but I spent my soph year playing both ways. Actually played a 2nd half of a game Ironman style. I've never been that sore the day after anything before or since. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 10, 2021 11:42:13 GMT -6
Again, this is still a d1 football team. I would imagine that they have full time defensive coaches and they platoon practice. This is not a high school team that puts all their best players on offense and practices defense 10 minutes a day. This thread has just taken a weird turn in my opinion by worry about things like that. On every college football I coached (assistant not HC) there were always players that crossed sides. In fact we would actively recruit each others kids. Hey why be a third team DT when you could start at OT ETC. You don't see it as much in major college but it happens at the lower levels...Slow RB's that could find a hole always make great ILB's There are kids that swap sides. I never said there wasn't. In fact, I said it occasionally happens even at the power 5's. But read what you just said, Slow RB that can go play ILB. Why be third team DT when you could start at OL? Doesn't sound like someone is taking someone else's best players. Every once in a while a good DB becomes a WR or WR becomes a good DB. There really isn't a whole lot of swapping going on. D1 (even low d1) and d2 players fit certain body types and attributes for certain positions. They just do. And, I just don't think this is what this thread is about and even if it was, we would never know if that is what they are doing and not sure it has anything to do with them trying to never punt. |
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Post by blb on Nov 10, 2021 12:03:01 GMT -6
DBs are WRs that can't catch.
OL is the last stop before the bus stop.
And never punting is just bad Football.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 10, 2021 12:16:10 GMT -6
You shouldn't have policies that are in terms of absolutes. They always end up screwing you over.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 13, 2021 16:18:39 GMT -6
Week 10...not much to update. It seems the Blue Hose had one failed conversion on downs in their own territory that led to a score when the game was still in doubt early on, but 5 interceptions and a fumble pretty much make any analysis of a "no punt" policy worthless for this game.
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Post by Defcord on Nov 13, 2021 16:27:11 GMT -6
You shouldn't have policies that are in terms of absolutes. They always end up screwing you over. Always? Seems like a pretty absolute statement |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 13, 2021 16:44:47 GMT -6
However, and this is pure speculation here, based off of his quotes and comments regarding other aspects of the game I don’t think it is preposterous to assume he might not spend as much time on the defensive side of the ball Again, this is still a d1 football team. I would imagine that they have full time defensive coaches and they platoon practice. This is not a high school team that puts all their best players on offense and practices defense 10 minutes a day. This thread has just taken a weird turn in my opinion by worry about things like that. Non scholarship D1 football is a bit of a different situation when it comes to resources, staffing etc. I have seen D1 non scholly staffs that looked like : HC full time university employee (actually taught classes) Full time OC Full Time DC 1 other full time coach (OL) WR was a GA RB was local HS teacher DL was local HS teacher DB was GA. More to the point here with Coach Kelley- It absolutely COULD be the set up you described...move the best to Offense and skimp on D practice time and players. I don't know. But Non Scholly D1 football can be -depending on the program- much closer to HS football than it is to what most would consider "D1" |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 13, 2021 17:52:37 GMT -6
You shouldn't have policies that are in terms of absolutes. They always end up screwing you over. Always? Seems like a pretty absolute statement You noticed that huh? You must be an English teacher haha. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Nov 13, 2021 17:58:58 GMT -6
You shouldn't have policies that are in terms of absolutes. They always end up screwing you over. Always? So much for no absolutes. Lol jk, just screwing around 😄 |
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Post by Defcord on Nov 13, 2021 18:14:13 GMT -6
Always? Seems like a pretty absolute statement You noticed that huh? You must be an English teacher haha. Social teacher but professional smartass and contrarian |
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Post by notredame44 on Nov 13, 2021 18:41:54 GMT -6
Week 10 update 1st possession, going for it on 4th and 5 at their own 37 was successful, extended the drive and scored two plays later on a long QB run. Score 8-0 Opponent drives and scores. 8-8 2nd Possession, going for it on 4th and 8 at their own 29 was not successful, opponent scored in 2 plays to go up 8-14. 3rd and 4th possessions, punted on 4th and 10+ Opponent scores after each. Score 8-28 5th Pos- Long drive resulting in TD. 14-28 6th Pos - Converting a 4th and 3 on their own 38 led to a 12 play touchdown drive. Score 22-28. 7th Pos 2 play TD drive score 28-31 8th Pos 17 yard punt on 4th and 25 from their 3 yard line. 9th Pos INT to end the half Score 28-38. 10th Pos Int 11th Pos Convert 4th and 1 on own 46 to extend the drive. Ends 3 plays later with INT 12 Pos- Failed to convert 4th and 19 from own 40 .. Score is 28 - 38. 6 play Valpo drive from the +40. Score 28-45 13 Pos 5 play drive resulting in TD Score 34-45 14 Pos 3 play drive TD. Score 40-52 14 minutes left in the 4th quarter. 15 Pos 5 play drive TD Score 48-58 Recover onside kick 16 Pos Convert 4th and 6 at Valpo 49 to extend drive. 9 play TD drive Score 55-58. Valpo drives down and scores. 17 Pos Failed to convert 4th and 14 from own 32 with 5 minutes to do down 55-65. 18 Pos Failed to convert 4th and 2 at own 43 with 3 minutes left. Valpo runs out clock. Clearly their defense is PUTRID. Down 38-28 in what I assume is middle 3rd quarter and going for it on 4th and 19 on his own 40? That’s garbage decision making. I could see on the opponent’s 40 considering his philosophy, but not from his own 40. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 11:01:25 GMT -6
However, and this is pure speculation here, based off of his quotes and comments regarding other aspects of the game I don’t think it is preposterous to assume he might not spend as much time on the defensive side of the ball Again, this is still a d1 football team. I would imagine that they have full time defensive coaches and they platoon practice. This is not a high school team that puts all their best players on offense and practices defense 10 minutes a day. This thread has just taken a weird turn in my opinion by worry about things like that. I’m sure they do full defensive practices and have a defensive staff. With Kelley’s philosophy, I could see him switching more than a couple of dudes around in the off-season to make sure his best 11 were all offensive starters. That’s unorthodox, but so is never punting and always kicking onside. There’s nothing about being a D1 football player, whether scholarship or no scholarship, that guarantees you’ll play the same position or even on the same side of the ball from year to year or even week to week. Either way, unless someone with better knowledge of the PU roster chimes in to confirm or dispel this, we won’t know so it’s kind of pointless. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Nov 14, 2021 12:55:27 GMT -6
Week 10 update 1st possession, going for it on 4th and 5 at their own 37 was successful, extended the drive and scored two plays later on a long QB run. Score 8-0 Opponent drives and scores. 8-8 2nd Possession, going for it on 4th and 8 at their own 29 was not successful, opponent scored in 2 plays to go up 8-14. 3rd and 4th possessions, punted on 4th and 10+ Opponent scores after each. Score 8-28 5th Pos- Long drive resulting in TD. 14-28 6th Pos - Converting a 4th and 3 on their own 38 led to a 12 play touchdown drive. Score 22-28. 7th Pos 2 play TD drive score 28-31 8th Pos 17 yard punt on 4th and 25 from their 3 yard line. 9th Pos INT to end the half Score 28-38. 10th Pos Int 11th Pos Convert 4th and 1 on own 46 to extend the drive. Ends 3 plays later with INT 12 Pos- Failed to convert 4th and 19 from own 40 .. Score is 28 - 38. 6 play Valpo drive from the +40. Score 28-45 13 Pos 5 play drive resulting in TD Score 34-45 14 Pos 3 play drive TD. Score 40-52 14 minutes left in the 4th quarter. 15 Pos 5 play drive TD Score 48-58 Recover onside kick 16 Pos Convert 4th and 6 at Valpo 49 to extend drive. 9 play TD drive Score 55-58. Valpo drives down and scores. 17 Pos Failed to convert 4th and 14 from own 32 with 5 minutes to do down 55-65. 18 Pos Failed to convert 4th and 2 at own 43 with 3 minutes left. Valpo runs out clock. Clearly their defense is PUTRID. Down 38-28 in what I assume is middle 3rd quarter and going for it on 4th and 19 on his own 40? That’s garbage decision making. I could see on the opponent’s 40 considering his philosophy, but not from his own 40. Lol. He might be s#!canned by the end of the year over stupid crap like that. |
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Post by Defcord on Nov 14, 2021 14:20:19 GMT -6
Down 38-28 in what I assume is middle 3rd quarter and going for it on 4th and 19 on his own 40? That’s garbage decision making. I could see on the opponent’s 40 considering his philosophy, but not from his own 40. Lol. He might be s#!canned by the end of the year over stupid crap like that. I hope they keep them to see how he adapts and if he can turn things around. I find it interesting how really bad they are at defense. They’ve given up fifty points more this year than my teams have in a nearly twenty year career and I’ve coached some bad and mediocre teams at times, some good ones too to be fair. If he’s as good of a coach as the accolades he receives he may have to be bad before he can be better, but ultimately could get it turned around. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Nov 14, 2021 14:29:08 GMT -6
Lol. He might be s#!canned by the end of the year over stupid crap like that. I hope they keep them to see how he adapts and if he can turn things around. I find it interesting how really bad they are at defense. They’ve given up fifty points more this year than my teams have in a nearly twenty year career and I’ve coached some bad and mediocre teams at times, some good ones too to be fair. If he’s as good of a coach as the accolades he receives he may have to be bad before he can be better, but ultimately could get it turned around. At least some part of why they have been bad on defense this year is probably because of the poor field position he puts them in with his decision making. When you keep giving the opposing offense a short field, a defense that is probably already bad to begin with has an even tougher job. |
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Post by Defcord on Nov 14, 2021 15:14:24 GMT -6
I hope they keep them to see how he adapts and if he can turn things around. I find it interesting how really bad they are at defense. They’ve given up fifty points more this year than my teams have in a nearly twenty year career and I’ve coached some bad and mediocre teams at times, some good ones too to be fair. If he’s as good of a coach as the accolades he receives he may have to be bad before he can be better, but ultimately could get it turned around. At least some part of why they have been bad on defense this year is probably because of the poor field position he puts them in with his decision making. When you keep giving the opposing offense a short field, a defense that is probably already bad to begin with has an even tougher job. I get that but if he’s really trying to do his thing then he probably has to live with really bad scores over kind of bad scores to see if he can make it work. My interest is in seeing if he sticks with his style to try to see it through or if he jumps ship to a more traditional approach. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 16:06:29 GMT -6
At least some part of why they have been bad on defense this year is probably because of the poor field position he puts them in with his decision making. When you keep giving the opposing offense a short field, a defense that is probably already bad to begin with has an even tougher job. I get that but if he’s really trying to do his thing then he probably has to live with really bad scores over kind of bad scores to see if he can make it work. My interest is in seeing if he sticks with his style to try to see it through or if he jumps ship to a more traditional approach. What it really comes down to is can he out recruit the competition and then in addition to the recruiting, develop those players to perfect his design. |
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Nov 15, 2021 4:59:35 GMT -6
Anybody know how the HS he left has done this year?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 5:33:59 GMT -6
Anybody know how the HS he left has done this year? Per Maxpreps they are 10-1 and have scored 60+ in all but 3 games this year. |
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Post by veerman on Nov 15, 2021 11:11:18 GMT -6
Lol. He might be s#!canned by the end of the year over stupid crap like that. I hope they keep them to see how he adapts and if he can turn things around. I find it interesting how really bad they are at defense. They’ve given up fifty points more this year than my teams have in a nearly twenty year career and I’ve coached some bad and mediocre teams at times, some good ones too to be fair. If he’s as good of a coach as the accolades he receives he may have to be bad before he can be better, but ultimately could get it turned around. If your HC went for it on 4th & 22 from your own 5 and again from your own 2 like this guy does your defense would have given up 50+ a game as well. Teams that want to run close to 100 plays go hand in hand with defenses that are going to give up around 30+ a game on average....combine that with punt philosophy and there ya go. |
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Post by coachkeating33 on Nov 24, 2021 10:07:39 GMT -6
He was pretty vocal about hating individual time when he coached here in high school. Some of it makes total sense to me though. Tackling and blocking are total “want to” things and if you don't want to then you will never be good at it no matter how many drills you run. And to his point about tackling Barry Sanders he's 100% right and it has been stated on here many times. If the opposing teams running back is physically superior to your guys how do you practice that? I agree with this 10000%.....you do your tackling drills and then you run into a team that just is better at the point of attack and more physical....and then everyone wants to add more tackling drills---when the reality is it doesnt matter how many more times you hit that bag/person. sled etc--it wouldnt matter--- |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2021 11:12:40 GMT -6
He was pretty vocal about hating individual time when he coached here in high school. Some of it makes total sense to me though. Tackling and blocking are total “want to” things and if you don't want to then you will never be good at it no matter how many drills you run. And to his point about tackling Barry Sanders he's 100% right and it has been stated on here many times. If the opposing teams running back is physically superior to your guys how do you practice that? I agree with this 10000%.....you do your tackling drills and then you run into a team that just is better at the point of attack and more physical....and then everyone wants to add more tackling drills---when the reality is it doesnt matter how many more times you hit that bag/person. sled etc--it wouldnt matter--- And when you play the majority of teams in which such practice would matter??? |
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Post by irishdog on Nov 24, 2021 16:38:21 GMT -6
The game is played by the interaction of various positions executing their (very different) fundamental skills though-- not by having 11 x's run around with a corresponding 11 o's . Maybe the comments are taken a bit out of context, and he is talking about practice in November. I would still disagree particularly because the accumulation of that individual skill development time over years is what develops "program strength" as I like to call it, but at least it makes a bit more sense. I also think peoples personal philosophies will impact how they interpret and receive his style. Coach, if I remember correctly a about a year or so ago you had made posts in a thread where you stated that calling plays is what you love about coaching. So that influences your ideas. A coach like Ted Seay seems to enjoy play design the most. A guy like dcohio seemed to enjoy building a defensive structure based on what offenses were doing that was capable to handling everything and yet being simple to install and teach. Me, I like the idea of building players in the weight room and by teaching them how to execute the fundamentals of the sport (Hence "play defense, not defenses") . I understand what you're saying and i'm not saying you're wrong. The great thing about football is there are so many ways to skin the cat that it's impossible to say one is better than another. I like and understand the notion of playing the game in practice like it will be played come game day. I like coach kelley and his contrarian views because they are contrarian, and contrarian thinking always makes things more interesting, as opposed to everyone sipping the same koolaid. Good point. Coach Kelley may not be a likable guy (a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind) but he always found a way to get the job done (a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind). He IS a contrarian. So was John Gagliardi. But how those two approach the game may not be right for another. My old mentor never practiced in full gear when the school year started. He was criticized by many, but when many discovered his incredible success they employed that same philosophy with the same success. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2021 17:29:56 GMT -6
I understand what you're saying and i'm not saying you're wrong. The great thing about football is there are so many ways to skin the cat that it's impossible to say one is better than another. I like and understand the notion of playing the game in practice like it will be played come game day. I like coach kelley and his contrarian views because they are contrarian, and contrarian thinking always makes things more interesting, as opposed to everyone sipping the same koolaid. Good point. Coach Kelley may not be a likable guy (a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind) but he always found a way to get the job done (a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind). He IS a contrarian. So was John Gagliardi. But how those two approach the game may not be right for another. My old mentor never practiced in full gear when the school year started. He was criticized by many, but when many discovered his incredible success they employed that same philosophy with the same success. Going 0-8 in and giving up 59 points a game in conference after the team went 4-3 in the Covid Spring season.. getting the job done??? Yep, a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind with that claim. LOL. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 9:56:00 GMT -6
I hope they keep them to see how he adapts and if he can turn things around. I find it interesting how really bad they are at defense. They’ve given up fifty points more this year than my teams have in a nearly twenty year career and I’ve coached some bad and mediocre teams at times, some good ones too to be fair. If he’s as good of a coach as the accolades he receives he may have to be bad before he can be better, but ultimately could get it turned around. If your HC went for it on 4th & 22 from your own 5 and again from your own 2 like this guy does your defense would have given up 50+ a game as well. Teams that want to run close to 100 plays go hand in hand with defenses that are going to give up around 30+ a game on average....combine that with punt philosophy and there ya go. So can we use this as a case study on how well the “never punt” strategy works when you have roughly equal or inferior talent to your opponents? PU was not nearly this bad in the spring using more conventional strategies against a pretty comparable schedule. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 10:13:37 GMT -6
Good point. Coach Kelley may not be a likable guy (a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind) but he always found a way to get the job done (a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind). He IS a contrarian. So was John Gagliardi. But how those two approach the game may not be right for another. My old mentor never practiced in full gear when the school year started. He was criticized by many, but when many discovered his incredible success they employed that same philosophy with the same success. Going 0-8 in and giving up 59 points a game in conference after the team went 4-3 in the Covid Spring season.. getting the job done??? Yep, a certain recent American president immediately comes to mind with that claim. LOL. From 4-3 in a shortened season (2 of those 3 losses were by a TD or less and the 3rd was only by 16) to 2-9 less than a year later with 6 of those losses by 20+. That sounds like a certain recent American president’s idea of “always getting the job done,” all right. 😉 |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 25, 2021 10:24:10 GMT -6
If your HC went for it on 4th & 22 from your own 5 and again from your own 2 like this guy does your defense would have given up 50+ a game as well. Teams that want to run close to 100 plays go hand in hand with defenses that are going to give up around 30+ a game on average....combine that with punt philosophy and there ya go. So can we use this as a case study on how well the “never punt” strategy works when you have roughly equal or inferior talent to your opponents? PU was not nearly this bad in the spring using more conventional strategies against a pretty comparable schedule. I don't know. I do think it may be more of a case study on the efficacy of being a "analytics" driven decision maker when we are discussing independent events as opposed to a long term continuous data stream. And while they did not punt on the conventional schedule that other teams did, their QB (a former Michigan preferred walk on) did throw 30 interceptions. Some may have been thrown punts, but the take away is that they were a bad football team. 30 interceptions, gave up 59 points in conference... that isn't all on "not punting". I do think it may shine a light on the coach's "most important thing is my play design" comments, and his apparent disdain for individual fundamental practice. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 25, 2021 15:25:51 GMT -6
So can we use this as a case study on how well the “never punt” strategy works when you have roughly equal or inferior talent to your opponents? PU was not nearly this bad in the spring using more conventional strategies against a pretty comparable schedule. I don't know. I do think it may be more of a case study on the efficacy of being a "analytics" driven decision maker when we are discussing independent events as opposed to a long term continuous data stream. And while they did not punt on the conventional schedule that other teams did, their QB (a former Michigan preferred walk on) did throw 30 interceptions. Some may have been thrown punts, but the take away is that they were a bad football team. 30 interceptions, gave up 59 points in conference... that isn't all on "not punting". Understand your point. But I think his strategies contribute to all these bad results (stats). Putting your team constantly in bad situations amplifies and creates more mistakes. Agree here. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 25, 2021 16:35:03 GMT -6
I don't know. I do think it may be more of a case study on the efficacy of being a "analytics" driven decision maker when we are discussing independent events as opposed to a long term continuous data stream. And while they did not punt on the conventional schedule that other teams did, their QB (a former Michigan preferred walk on) did throw 30 interceptions. Some may have been thrown punts, but the take away is that they were a bad football team. 30 interceptions, gave up 59 points in conference... that isn't all on "not punting". Understand your point. But I think his strategies contribute to all these bad results (stats). Putting your team constantly in bad situations amplifies and creates more mistakes. Maybe, but from a purely objective standpoint the team started punting later in the year (when they weren't turning the ball over) and it did not really matter. In my recaps in this thread, I don't think there were many (once the team started to punt more frequently) where the game was in doubt and going for it changed the complexion of the game. I still think it is a foolish mindset, ESPECIALLY given the fact that their QB attempted 558 passes on the year. That strategy seems to marry more with a run oriented offense. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2021 12:48:56 GMT -6
To finish this experiment.... He has abruptly quit his coaching position at PC. In parting he stated :
"“I have decided to leave Presbyterian College to pursue other football interests,” Kelley wrote on Twitter. “I am proud that we were #1 in the country in passing and #3 in the country in total offense at a school without scholarships"
[conveniently enough not mentioning the opponents didn't have scholarships either.. my emphasis..]
Make your own conclusions.
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