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Post by coachscdub on Sept 12, 2021 13:34:06 GMT -6
He did not take over Malzahn, they did play against each other tho. Also they dont have a constant supply of D1 Guys, look at the last few years, maybe, maybe 1 kid is ranked in the state. Do kids go D1 a few yea, alot of have been walk on (Hatcher, Bratcher, Hefley, etc). Does he have an ego absolutely but he wins, which is what matters when it comes to job security. Also just to point out they never seem to have superior talent to who they play, some of their rivals have just as many if not more ranked/D1 Kids. They absolutely have superior talent to most of the teams they play. It's not IMG or anything but to say they don't have superior talent than most of the teams they play is to say that you haven't seen the teams they play. I've seen them play, i think i've watched every game for the last few seasons. I'm not saying they dont have 'good' kids, but look at what they produce, look at the ESPN Arkansas player rankings, teams they play have more ranked kids than they do. Little Rock Christian, Life Christian Academy, Madison-Ridgeland Academy are a few schools they have played and are equal too or greater than Pulaski in terms of talent, and yet Pulaski wins. Do they have better talent than some of the teams they play absolutely but thats how life goes, not everybody is equal, some schools just arent gonna have talent. |
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Post by CS on Sept 12, 2021 16:44:49 GMT -6
They absolutely have superior talent to most of the teams they play. It's not IMG or anything but to say they don't have superior talent than most of the teams they play is to say that you haven't seen the teams they play. I've seen them play, i think i've watched every game for the last few seasons. I'm not saying they dont have 'good' kids, but look at what they produce, look at the ESPN Arkansas player rankings, teams they play have more ranked kids than they do. Little Rock Christian, Life Christian Academy, Madison-Ridgeland Academy are a few schools they have played and are equal too or greater than Pulaski in terms of talent, and yet Pulaski wins. Do they have better talent than some of the teams they play absolutely but thats how life goes, not everybody is equal, some schools just arent gonna have talent. I can’t speak on the non Arkansas schools but I’ve personally coached against LRC and they still haven’t stopped us. Yet they have pretty much split with PA the last few years. The rest of the conference they play in is trash. It just recently got better when they moved 2 schools into it but one of the worst in the state. That being said his teams are well coached and play super fast but don’t spread that bullsh!t that they are working with less. They’re not |
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Post by agap on Sept 13, 2021 10:02:24 GMT -6
Why does Saban, Belichick, etc. still have Indy and still practice tackling, blocking, etc. if it's not worth the time?
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Post by blb on Sept 13, 2021 10:11:26 GMT -6
Why does Saban, Belichick, etc. still have Indy and still practice tackling, blocking, etc. if it's not worth the time? They're not as smart as Kevin Kelley? |
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Post by coachks on Sept 13, 2021 11:11:28 GMT -6
I think it's obviously hyperbole.
I do think the general idea has a lot of merit for a few reasons.
1) Football is a mental sport. Remembering assignments, reading keys, going through progressions during "live" cannot be simulated in Indy. We all know a ton of kids who can do a drill perfectly, but can't translate it to the game.
2) A lot of Indy drills are mastered early on, and serve no function other than eating 10 minutes a day of practice. Bag drills, W drills, Chutes, Sleds. They have merit at a point in the season (Spring, Summer, Non-Padded days) but I do not think have a lot of value in-season.
3) That also applies to most "group" work. 7 on 7. Inside Run. Segmented work has a place (spring, summer, install times), but is inferior to playing 11 on 11. It creates bad habits, false keys ect.
4) Indy drills are unrealistic effort wise. Guys brother-in-lawing double team drill, or going through the motions as a ball-carrier, or using handshields to save shoulders... none of it creates good habits. A lot of the time the "winner" is based solely off who is trying harder. Since nobody wants guys getting hurt on a Tuesday indy session we don't WANT guys going 100% either. But the idea that a drill you went at 70% effort wise is going to translate to a live game is a stretch.
5) Having player stand around while you teach a play on the field is stupid. Do it on a whiteboard. Do it during film. Having kids stand around with a helmet on while you "teach" a play during indy is wasteful.
I think that 2.5 hour in-season high school practice is a lot more effective if you break it down by:
1) Lifting / Prehab / Rehab for 30 minutes.
2) Film / Meeting for 30 minutes.
3) Walk through for 10 minutes.
4) Indy for 10 Minutes.
5) Team 70 Minutes.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Sept 13, 2021 14:10:40 GMT -6
Have you ever known a winning HC that didn't have a huge ego?
When we were winning, by the time we were late in the season the indie time went way down. By then our kids knew how to block & tackle (or didn't) and we didn't want to risk injuries. Instead, we focused on expanding the playbook and trying to make kids expert at alignment and assignment.
When we were losing we continued to drill fundamentals as we did early in the season.
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Post by wingtol on Sept 13, 2021 16:56:55 GMT -6
Why does Saban, Belichick, etc. still have Indy and still practice tackling, blocking, etc. if it's not worth the time? They're not as smart as Kevin Kelley? Not as worried about their book and dvd sales as he is....? |
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Post by Defcord on Sept 13, 2021 17:50:41 GMT -6
I think it's obviously hyperbole. I do think the general idea has a lot of merit for a few reasons. 1) Football is a mental sport. Remembering assignments, reading keys, going through progressions during "live" cannot be simulated in Indy. We all know a ton of kids who can do a drill perfectly, but can't translate it to the game. 2) A lot of Indy drills are mastered early on, and serve no function other than eating 10 minutes a day of practice. Bag drills, W drills, Chutes, Sleds. They have merit at a point in the season (Spring, Summer, Non-Padded days) but I do not think have a lot of value in-season. 3) That also applies to most "group" work. 7 on 7. Inside Run. Segmented work has a place (spring, summer, install times), but is inferior to playing 11 on 11. It creates bad habits, false keys ect. 4) Indy drills are unrealistic effort wise. Guys brother-in-lawing double team drill, or going through the motions as a ball-carrier, or using handshields to save shoulders... none of it creates good habits. A lot of the time the "winner" is based solely off who is trying harder. Since nobody wants guys getting hurt on a Tuesday indy session we don't WANT guys going 100% either. But the idea that a drill you went at 70% effort wise is going to translate to a live game is a stretch. 5) Having player stand around while you teach a play on the field is stupid. Do it on a whiteboard. Do it during film. Having kids stand around with a helmet on while you "teach" a play during indy is wasteful. I think that 2.5 hour in-season high school practice is a lot more effective if you break it down by: 1) Lifting / Prehab / Rehab for 30 minutes. 2) Film / Meeting for 30 minutes. 3) Walk through for 10 minutes. 4) Indy for 10 Minutes. 5) Team 70 Minutes. Why do you feel like you can get great effort or attention in team or on the whiteboard but not during Indy? |
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Post by coachdubyah on Sept 13, 2021 18:24:51 GMT -6
“If I’m looking to go to a place where they just don’t have athletes, then I won’t go there”.
Prominent Air Raid guy told me that.
Read it again and it puts some things in perspective.
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Post by larrymoe on Sept 13, 2021 18:36:05 GMT -6
“If I’m looking to go to a place where they just don’t have athletes, then I won’t go there”. Prominent Air Raid guy told me that. Read it again and it puts some things in perspective. We had a few guys like that locally. They'd pop up somewhere, win a lot of games and then "retire". You could always tell when a school was about to go on a run because one of these guys would pop up to swoop in and win with all the talent other people cultivated. Which is, whatever. The annoying part was how the masses kissed their asses for "turning around that program". Usually there would be a prolonged period of losing after them because they'd put in zero effort cultivating future classes. |
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Post by fantom on Sept 13, 2021 21:09:09 GMT -6
2) A lot of Indy drills are mastered early on, and serve no function other than eating 10 minutes a day of practice. Bag drills, W drills, Chutes, Sleds. They have merit at a point in the season (Spring, Summer, Non-Padded days) but I do not think have a lot of value in-season. Couldn't disagree more. Skills need to be practiced or they deteriorate. You can cut down the time after they get good at it but I'd never stop working fundamentals. |
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Post by coachks on Sept 14, 2021 4:50:04 GMT -6
I think it's obviously hyperbole. I do think the general idea has a lot of merit for a few reasons. 1) Football is a mental sport. Remembering assignments, reading keys, going through progressions during "live" cannot be simulated in Indy. We all know a ton of kids who can do a drill perfectly, but can't translate it to the game. 2) A lot of Indy drills are mastered early on, and serve no function other than eating 10 minutes a day of practice. Bag drills, W drills, Chutes, Sleds. They have merit at a point in the season (Spring, Summer, Non-Padded days) but I do not think have a lot of value in-season. 3) That also applies to most "group" work. 7 on 7. Inside Run. Segmented work has a place (spring, summer, install times), but is inferior to playing 11 on 11. It creates bad habits, false keys ect. 4) Indy drills are unrealistic effort wise. Guys brother-in-lawing double team drill, or going through the motions as a ball-carrier, or using handshields to save shoulders... none of it creates good habits. A lot of the time the "winner" is based solely off who is trying harder. Since nobody wants guys getting hurt on a Tuesday indy session we don't WANT guys going 100% either. But the idea that a drill you went at 70% effort wise is going to translate to a live game is a stretch. 5) Having player stand around while you teach a play on the field is stupid. Do it on a whiteboard. Do it during film. Having kids stand around with a helmet on while you "teach" a play during indy is wasteful. I think that 2.5 hour in-season high school practice is a lot more effective if you break it down by: 1) Lifting / Prehab / Rehab for 30 minutes. 2) Film / Meeting for 30 minutes. 3) Walk through for 10 minutes. 4) Indy for 10 Minutes. 5) Team 70 Minutes. Why do you feel like you can get great effort or attention in team or on the whiteboard but not during Indy? Why don't we teach class outside? |
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Post by coachks on Sept 14, 2021 5:09:16 GMT -6
2) A lot of Indy drills are mastered early on, and serve no function other than eating 10 minutes a day of practice. Bag drills, W drills, Chutes, Sleds. They have merit at a point in the season (Spring, Summer, Non-Padded days) but I do not think have a lot of value in-season. Couldn't disagree more. Skills need to be practiced or they deteriorate. You can cut down the time after they get good at it but I'd never stop working fundamentals. I agree. I didn't say eliminate Indy. I said a lot of Indy drills are a waste of time once they are mastered. I'll use the "W" drill as an example. Why do you do the W Drill? Teach kids to keep their feet and body position transitioning from forward to backwards ect. You can get a lot of reps (4 "transitions"), kids can rip right through the reps because it's minimal equipment. No problem with the drill. It's not "realistic" - there is no stimulus, you don't transition at 45 degree angles 4 times in a play. Eventually it's just muscle memory of hitting the drill - but the drill itself doesn't translate to a game. You use the drill to teach the skill, but once you have taught the skill you need to transition to more realistic drills. What's a more realistic drill? Put your DB in a backpedal, have a WR run a slant to a designated cone and make the DB pedal then break 45 degrees and make a play on the route. Same 45 degree break, but it's more realistic. You can make it more realistic by adding a double move and making the DB recover (making the W). The issue with drill #2, a more realistic drill, is that one of the following is going to be true: 1) You are going to create a collision at the catch point. So either you need to limit the reps, or one side needs to back off (unrealistic effort that I alluded to). 2)You are banking on the QB and backup DB being able to run a slant, throw a slant and catch a slant. Again, not necessarily true and leads to a lot of wasted reps. 3) To fix those two issues you need to tag up with the WR group - which is a waste of time for them. At that point, just run 1 on 1 routes. We all know 1 on 1 pass is a waste of time, so you might as well just run team pass. Once we are out of camp, I want to run drill #2. I know the limits of drill #2, it has diminishing returns after a few reps, so I now it's only going to take me 3-4 minutes. I'm not going to waste my time running the W before drill #2. They get the skill retention from drill #2. I can do 3 drills (like drill #2) in a 10 minute indy period. |
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Post by jlenwood on Sept 14, 2021 6:17:27 GMT -6
I think a lot of coaches miss the point when discussing this guy and his methods. I'll also be the first to admit I haven't studied or read everything about him. I just think if you have the athletes/players and you can do something to put the odds in your favor, why not take advantage of that.
I am in Ohio. Several years ago there was a kid who came thru from Kenton HS named Matty Mauk. His dad was the coach and they were flat out the most fun team to watch play that I have ever seen. They NEVER kicked punts, always an onside kick, always went for two etc. Now the reason he was able to do that was his son was an absolute stud, and they had a group of receivers that were untouchable. He did have a good defense, but frankly when you could put points on the board like they did who cares about D.
It didn't matter where on the field they were, 4th and 20 they would go for it. Looked like they flipped a coin to see who would KO each time and it was always onside.
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Sept 14, 2021 7:47:19 GMT -6
I guess the question you have to ask yourself is why you think Kevin Kelley wins? Is it the whole package or is it certain pieces?
For me I think it's his talent and his ability to design an offense. So I don't put much value in his views of practice structure.
Yes I think drills should simulate game like situations, but mostly team isn't it. I've been on teams that have done that and it's slow tempo wise and the players that aren't starting learn nothing.
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Post by bobgoodman on Sept 14, 2021 8:11:14 GMT -6
Everything is about putting together small component skills into multi-component skills, and so on until the final assemblage is a football game. How much time do you have to do this at various points before the actual game?
There are some skills that need to be constantly refreshed, because they're already multi-component and will deteriorate pretty quickly.
But then there are other skills that are so basic and so far removed from what you need to put together for a game, that you get to a point where it's too late to learn or even refresh them in a way that's useful for game preparation. A lot of drills for general agility, even endurance/conditioning (if you want to count that as a skill), make sense to work on a long time in advance of the game, but at some point during the season -- maybe even before the season for some of them -- it's too late. Yes, practicing various moves with tires or a rope ladder or cones may help you develop the footwork you need for executing your assignment, but there comes a time where you no longer have the time to put those micro-skills together into a more complex one, and you'd better practice only the assignment, no matter how bad you are at the steps. Progressive sprints can build up your endurance, but by about halfway thru the season or less, you no longer have time to build any more endurance than you already have, or even maintain what you got, even for your final game, and you'll just be wearing yourself out with sprints. (Besides, if you have enough whole-team drills at pace, that alone is maintaining your conditioning.)
And if you think you're at a point in time where the more realistic and hence useful drills are too dangerous to risk, and the most basic ones are too far removed from useful, then you should cut down your practices, period.
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Post by Defcord on Sept 14, 2021 8:34:41 GMT -6
Why do you feel like you can get great effort or attention in team or on the whiteboard but not during Indy? Why don't we teach class outside? Who says some of us don't? |
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Post by Defcord on Sept 14, 2021 8:40:23 GMT -6
I think a lot of coaches miss the point when discussing this guy and his methods. I'll also be the first to admit I haven't studied or read everything about him. I just think if you have the athletes/players and you can do something to put the odds in your favor, why not take advantage of that. I am in Ohio. Several years ago there was a kid who came thru from Kenton HS named Matty Mauk. His dad was the coach and they were flat out the most fun team to watch play that I have ever seen. They NEVER kicked punts, always an onside kick, always went for two etc. Now the reason he was able to do that was his son was an absolute stud, and they had a group of receivers that were untouchable. He did have a good defense, but frankly when you could put points on the board like they did who cares about D. It didn't matter where on the field they were, 4th and 20 they would go for it. Looked like they flipped a coin to see who would KO each time and it was always onside. I went to college with the oldest brother. He would show us the middle brother's films. There was always defensive guys throwing up because they played fast and ran so many plays. Like every single film there would be defenders throwing up. And of course they threw for millions of yards. The dad moved to Missouri when Maty was there and was scoring a bunch of points down there for a while, but I don't know if he's still coaching or not. Definitely fun to watch though even after the sons were out of the system. |
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Post by bigdog2003 on Sept 14, 2021 10:15:38 GMT -6
Presbyterian is about 20 minutes from me, that was once our biggest rivals at Newberry College until PC moved up. I'm interested to see what Kelly does once they start playing more equal opponents.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 14, 2021 17:37:54 GMT -6
Presbyterian is about 20 minutes from me, that was once our biggest rivals at Newberry College until PC moved up. I'm interested to see what Kelly does once they start playing more equal opponents. I was curious about that as well. They seem to be at the end of their phase out of scholarship football, but as a program that has been scholarship up until the last couple of years, they probably enjoy some residual advantages over their non schollie opponents. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Sept 14, 2021 18:01:35 GMT -6
Presbyterian is about 20 minutes from me, that was once our biggest rivals at Newberry College until PC moved up. I'm interested to see what Kelly does once they start playing more equal opponents. I was curious about that as well. They seem to be at the end of their phase out of scholarship football, but as a program that has been scholarship up until the last couple of years, they probably enjoy some residual advantages over their non schollie opponents. It's been an interesting journey that is way more complicated than that. It goes back 15 years to the actions the decision makers made with the hires they made back then..... It was only that far back that PC(U) had dreams of DI-AA (now FCS) and the promises that were made. |
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Post by jlenwood on Sept 14, 2021 20:17:12 GMT -6
I think a lot of coaches miss the point when discussing this guy and his methods. I'll also be the first to admit I haven't studied or read everything about him. I just think if you have the athletes/players and you can do something to put the odds in your favor, why not take advantage of that. I am in Ohio. Several years ago there was a kid who came thru from Kenton HS named Matty Mauk. His dad was the coach and they were flat out the most fun team to watch play that I have ever seen. They NEVER kicked punts, always an onside kick, always went for two etc. Now the reason he was able to do that was his son was an absolute stud, and they had a group of receivers that were untouchable. He did have a good defense, but frankly when you could put points on the board like they did who cares about D. It didn't matter where on the field they were, 4th and 20 they would go for it. Looked like they flipped a coin to see who would KO each time and it was always onside. I went to college with the oldest brother. He would show us the middle brother's films. There was always defensive guys throwing up because they played fast and ran so many plays. Like every single film there would be defenders throwing up. And of course they threw for millions of yards. The dad moved to Missouri when Maty was there and was scoring a bunch of points down there for a while, but I don't know if he's still coaching or not. Definitely fun to watch though even after the sons were out of the system. Matty kind of flamed out with some drug issues at Miz. His dad unfortunately got cancer and I don't know if he still coaches or not. |
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Post by bigdog2003 on Sept 15, 2021 6:46:17 GMT -6
Presbyterian is about 20 minutes from me, that was once our biggest rivals at Newberry College until PC moved up. I'm interested to see what Kelly does once they start playing more equal opponents. I was curious about that as well. They seem to be at the end of their phase out of scholarship football, but as a program that has been scholarship up until the last couple of years, they probably enjoy some residual advantages over their non schollie opponents. That combined with them playing a NAIA school and a D2 school that has been playing competitive football for 5 years to open the season has me interested. They travel to Campbell this week. Not sure what Campbell has, but it is more of a equal footing than their first 2 opponents. I know there was rumors of PC dropping back to D2 recently, but the conference they left, the SAC, has expanded since they left and I don't think they would jump to add them back. It would be nice, we haven't had our rivalry game since 2006, which is a long and complicated story. |
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Post by bigdog2003 on Sept 15, 2021 6:48:52 GMT -6
I was curious about that as well. They seem to be at the end of their phase out of scholarship football, but as a program that has been scholarship up until the last couple of years, they probably enjoy some residual advantages over their non schollie opponents. It's been an interesting journey that is way more complicated than that. It goes back 15 years to the actions the decision makers made with the hires they made back then..... It was only that far back that PC(U) had dreams of DI-AA (now FCS) and the promises that were made. Yes, the decisions they made were very interesting. I just miss the Bronze Derby game. |
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Post by airitout616 on Sept 16, 2021 8:55:39 GMT -6
I went to college with the oldest brother. He would show us the middle brother's films. There was always defensive guys throwing up because they played fast and ran so many plays. Like every single film there would be defenders throwing up. And of course they threw for millions of yards. The dad moved to Missouri when Maty was there and was scoring a bunch of points down there for a while, but I don't know if he's still coaching or not. Definitely fun to watch though even after the sons were out of the system. Matty kind of flamed out with some drug issues at Miz. His dad unfortunately got cancer and I don't know if he still coaches or not. Mike Mauk still coaches, I coach with his nephew and they still do the same stuff. Kenton also still is mostly 5 wide throwing it all over. |
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Post by CS on Sept 18, 2021 19:34:47 GMT -6
Well he got beat 65-0 today
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 18, 2021 19:47:47 GMT -6
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Post by CS on Sept 18, 2021 19:52:41 GMT -6
Yes the final was 72-0. Not going to lie I love seeing Kelly brought down a peg but I still agree with some of his beliefs. Players win games is the #1 rule |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 18, 2021 20:02:35 GMT -6
Yes the final was 72-0. Not going to lie I love seeing Kelly brought down a peg but I still agree with some of his beliefs. Players win games is the #1 rule If players win games (which I believe as well) then why say that the most important things are playcalling, play design and "teaching" plays as opposed to saying the most important thing is developing players through fundamental skill work? I don't think any coach worth his/her salt doesn't think that having better players isn't the key to success. I am just confused as to why some seem to think that some of the things being discussed here aren't the factors that make better players. |
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Post by coachdubyah on Sept 18, 2021 20:36:48 GMT -6
Well….that does it for this thread.
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