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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 11:46:49 GMT -6
If a team goes spread and you play press cant you harass the rec enough to disrupt timing and get to the qb? bring one more rusher than they have in protection...mix up the stunts. the qb is going to throw some up for grabs, some in the dirt and get sacked some...rec are going to drop some, dbacks are going to bat some down....I like my chances.
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Post by jhanawa on Jul 26, 2007 12:05:23 GMT -6
Steve,
Does motion into and out of bunch formations alter your coverage philosophy? Also, do you play press man against option teams? If your press man isn't effective (getting beat more often than your getting to the QB), do you change into a zone or different type of man with help over the top? We are gun/spread and do alot of the above, just wondering how what we do would affect a 46 press guy's approch.
Thanks,
Jim
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Post by brophy on Jul 26, 2007 12:13:03 GMT -6
If a team goes spread and you play press cant you harass the rec enough to disrupt timing and get to the qb? bring one more rusher than they have in protection...mix up the stunts. the qb is going to throw some up for grabs, some in the dirt and get sacked some...rec are going to drop some, dbacks are going to bat some down....I like my chances. I respect your conviction and I know that is what you are going to do regardless.
However, have you ever played a team with that philosophy that could actually make you pay for bringing everyone?
It is easy to say "blitz everyone" if your opponent can't stop it (whether you are spread or not) - in fact, if they can't stop it, you SHOULD do it, but when they CAN (and ANY good throwing team has to beat the blitz FIRST before they can establish a passing game)...are you still going to put your players (team) in harm's way out of stubborness?
That is where most of us are at. For most of us, dealing with high school / small college offenses, is quite a bit different from jr high and youth offenses that your reference point is established from. Most high school offenses CAN pass pro effectively and DO have quarterbacks that won't fold after the first hit. If you have inferior opponents you can do whatever you want - but most high school offenses can counter your main threat.
How many of those teams you are talking about had the ability to alter the tempo (with cadence and hurry-up), run inside/outside screens, check release backs & TEs, throw hots, bring in additional receivers as blockers..............how many of those teams actually could pass pro?
Again, until you've played a team that can do those things, it is real easy to sit back and say "Nano-blitz 'em".
Can you win a game of chess with 3 moves? Yes, but only if your opponent isn't good (or recognizes the pattern you are attempting).
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 12:48:28 GMT -6
If a team goes spread and you play press cant you harass the rec enough to disrupt timing and get to the qb? bring one more rusher than they have in protection...mix up the stunts. the qb is going to throw some up for grabs, some in the dirt and get sacked some...rec are going to drop some, dbacks are going to bat some down....I like my chances. I respect your conviction and I know that is what you are going to do regardless.
However, have you ever played a team with that philosophy that could actually make you pay for bringing everyone?
It is easy to say "blitz everyone" if your opponent can't stop it (whether you are spread or not) - in fact, if they can't stop it, you SHOULD do it, but when they CAN (and ANY good throwing team has to beat the blitz FIRST before they can establish a passing game)...are you still going to put your players (team) in harm's way out of stubborness?
That is where most of us are at. For most of us, dealing with high school / small college offenses, is quite a bit different from jr high and youth offenses that your reference point is established from. Most high school offenses CAN pass pro effectively and DO have quarterbacks that won't fold after the first hit. If you have inferior opponents you can do whatever you want - but most high school offenses can counter your main threat.
How many of those teams you are talking about had the ability to alter the tempo (with cadence and hurry-up), run inside/outside screens, check release backs & TEs, throw hots, bring in additional receivers as blockers..............how many of those teams actually could pass pro?
Again, until you've played a team that can do those things, it is real easy to sit back and say "Nano-blitz 'em".
Can you win a game of chess with 3 moves? Yes, but only if your opponent isn't good (or recognizes the pattern you are attempting).not sure If I understand, I said blitz one more than they have in protection, and it doesnt have to be every down.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 12:51:22 GMT -6
Steve, Does motion into and out of bunch formations alter your coverage philosophy? Also, do you play press man against option teams? If your press man isn't effective (getting beat more often than your getting to the QB), do you change into a zone or different type of man with help over the top? We are gun/spread and do alot of the above, just wondering how what we do would affect a 46 press guy's approch. Thanks, Jim yes, stay in press man even if bunched, yes, play press man vs option, why do something we arent "as good at" ...follow my thinking? we want to be GREAT AT SOMETHING and that something is PRESS MAN...every down, every day, all day. be GREAT AT IT. COVER ALL SCENARIOS in practice thru hundreds of reps...maybe thousands of reps. as soon as we add a second coverage we cut our reps in half. no thanks. now, yes, we would use a different type of man...ie man with two free, man with one free and one in double coverage or man with one in double coverage and none free....with a cover two look. but in the end, no matter what, its one man on one man. no coverage errors, no miscommunication, no confusion and always a great pass rush.
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Post by dubber on Jul 26, 2007 12:55:43 GMT -6
If a team goes spread and you play press cant you harass the rec enough to disrupt timing and get to the qb? bring one more rusher than they have in protection...mix up the stunts. the qb is going to throw some up for grabs, some in the dirt and get sacked some...rec are going to drop some, dbacks are going to bat some down....I like my chances. I respect your conviction and I know that is what you are going to do regardless.
However, have you ever played a team with that philosophy that could actually make you pay for bringing everyone?
It is easy to say "blitz everyone" if your opponent can't stop it (whether you are spread or not) - in fact, if they can't stop it, you SHOULD do it, but when they CAN (and ANY good throwing team has to beat the blitz FIRST before they can establish a passing game)...are you still going to put your players (team) in harm's way out of stubborness?
That is where most of us are at. For most of us, dealing with high school / small college offenses, is quite a bit different from jr high and youth offenses that your reference point is established from. Most high school offenses CAN pass pro effectively and DO have quarterbacks that won't fold after the first hit. If you have inferior opponents you can do whatever you want - but most high school offenses can counter your main threat.
How many of those teams you are talking about had the ability to alter the tempo (with cadence and hurry-up), run inside/outside screens, check release backs & TEs, throw hots, bring in additional receivers as blockers..............how many of those teams actually could pass pro?
Again, until you've played a team that can do those things, it is real easy to sit back and say "Nano-blitz 'em".
Can you win a game of chess with 3 moves? Yes, but only if your opponent isn't good (or recognizes the pattern you are attempting).good point
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Post by brophy on Jul 26, 2007 12:58:09 GMT -6
Steve, Does motion into and out of bunch formations alter your coverage philosophy? Also, do you play press man against option teams? If your press man isn't effective (getting beat more often than your getting to the QB), do you change into a zone or different type of man with help over the top? We are gun/spread and do alot of the above, just wondering how what we do would affect a 46 press guy's approch. Thanks, Jim yes, stay in press man even if bunched, yes, play press man vs option, why do something we arent "as good at" ...follow my thinking? we want to be GREAT AT SOMETHING and that something is PRESS MAN...every down, every day, all day. be GREAT AT IT. COVER ALL SCENARIOS in practice thru hundreds of reps...maybe thousands of reps. as soon as we add a second coverage we cut our reps in half. no thanks. now, yes, we would use a different type of man...ie man with two free, man with one free and one in double coverage or man with one in double coverage and none free....with a cover two look. but in the end, no matter what, its one man on one man. no coverage errors, no miscommunication, no confusion and always a great pass rush. X--------------------O--O--[-]--O--O-------------------Y-------- -------------------------------------------------------A----Z----- -----------------------------Q------------------------------------ --------------------------F---------------------------------------- how do you play press man against trips bunch? not sure If I understand, I said blitz one more than they have in protection, and it doesnt have to be every down. ? yes, stay in press man even if bunched, yes, play press man vs option, why do something we arent as good at ...follow my thinking? we want to be GREAT AT SOMETHING and that something is PRESS MAN... every down, every day, all day. ?Disrupt timing of receivers & get to the QB.....whether you play zero, man-free, 2 under.......it doesn't matter, because beating you DEEP probably isn't going to be how the pass will beat you. It will be short and quick with no defenders to support after that (because you ARE blitzing.......someone) as soon as we add a second coverage we cut our reps in half. no thanks. You will likely get around 90 - 100 hours of practice and instruction with your kids in a season. If you don't think it is viable to coach more than one idea, I would believe you're being inefficient.
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Post by dubber on Jul 26, 2007 13:08:44 GMT -6
as soon as we add a second coverage we cut our reps in half. no thanks. I believe in being simple, but you need enough diversity to have anwsers for what the other guy is doing. If man doesn't work, you are up the creek. Kinda like a spread team that never works on their run game, if a team can stop them from passing they are screwed. Jumping into man under C2 versus a spread team isn't a solution either.......that's a good 7-on-7 defense, and can be used in spots on gameday, but a half-way knowledgeable coach, upon seeing that every down, just said, "Run the Draw." The worse thing you can do to a spread team? Drop 8 and be physical with that short stuff............ There's a reason the Bear 46 isn't a base for any NFL team anymore no, it's not because owners/fans don't like it, it's just not doable
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Post by dubber on Jul 26, 2007 13:12:39 GMT -6
Disrupt timing of receivers & get to the QB.....whether you play zero, man-free, 2 under.......it doesn't matter, because beating you DEEP probably isn't going to be how the pass will beat you. It will be short and quick with no defenders to support after that (because you ARE blitzing.......someone) That is the biggest downfall of blitzing....getting guys out of position, on an island.......run fits get messed up too, because once i blitz Mike, he can't scrape over to help the power hole.....he can only go into his A-gap.
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Post by dubber on Jul 26, 2007 13:13:26 GMT -6
Never blitz? hell no!
Just learn when's and where's to apply it
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 26, 2007 13:18:12 GMT -6
I would agree with the idea that at the HS level the average difference in player talent will allow a QB to beat press coverage compared to the youth level where accurate passers are a rarity. Its the reverse logic of why the Double Wing is much more popular at the Youth level than HS and college.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:20:27 GMT -6
--------------------------F
-----------------------------M ------------------------------------------------------W----C --C--------------E------T---N----T----E---------------S X--------------------O--O--[-]--O--O-------------------Y-------- -------------------------------------------------------A----Z----- -----------------------------Q------------------------------------ --------------------------F----------------------------------------
WHY CANT I DO THIS?
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:23:16 GMT -6
as soon as we add a second coverage we cut our reps in half. no thanks. I believe in being simple, but you need enough diversity to have anwsers for what the other guy is doing. If man doesn't work, you are up the creek. Kinda like a spread team that never works on their run game, if a team can stop them from passing they are screwed. Jumping into man under C2 versus a spread team isn't a solution either.......that's a good 7-on-7 defense, and can be used in spots on gameday, but a half-way knowledgeable coach, upon seeing that every down, just said, "Run the Draw." The worse thing you can do to a spread team? Drop 8 and be physical with that short stuff............ There's a reason the Bear 46 isn't a base for any NFL team anymore no, it's not because owners/fans don't like it, it's just not doable DIVERSITY REQUIRES MORE PRACTICE TIME, IF I FOCUS MY EFFORTS ON ONE THING I SPECIALIZE AND BECOME GREAT AT ONE THING, IF THEY ARE STILL ABLE TO BEAT ME THEN THEY ARE PROBABLY GOING TO BEAT ME ANYWAY NO MATTER WHAT I DO. WHY GIVE THEM THE UPPER HAND BY TRYING TO DO SOMETHING IM NOT EQUIPPED OR PREPARED TO DO? IF MY SPECIALTY IS MAN TO MAN AND THEY ARE WHIPPING ME WHY WOULD I THINK THAT I CAN PLAY ZONE AND THEY WOULDNT WHIP ME? THATS SCREWY.
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Post by fbdoc on Jul 26, 2007 13:23:56 GMT -6
I know this can turn into a "I've got the chalk last" but if I saw that formation as a base to my Bunch, I would run Speed Option Left, or motion A across and run the Triple.
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Post by brophy on Jul 26, 2007 13:25:18 GMT -6
just a question.............why do you think teams GO to bunch?
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:25:38 GMT -6
SURE YOU WOULD , ASSUMING WE ALIGNED UP THAT WAY EVERY DOWN. THATS THE GAME, PLAY CALLING IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF IT.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 26, 2007 13:30:15 GMT -6
Steve, Does motion into and out of bunch formations alter your coverage philosophy? Also, do you play press man against option teams? yes, stay in press man even if bunched, yes, play press man vs option, one of the main reasons a team, especially a spread team employs a bunch formation is to either force teams to "zone it up" or run mesh/rub stuff all day long against their man defense as they rub defenders off as they try to stay locked on man.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:33:02 GMT -6
---------------------------------F
-------------------------M-----------N -------------------------------------------------------W----C --C-----------------E---T-------T-----E-----------------S X--------------------O--O--[-]--O--O-------------------Y-------- -------------------------------------------------------A----Z----- -----------------------------Q------------------------------------ --------------------------F----------------------------------------
OR THIS, OR THIS...
-------------------------F-----------------------$
-------------------------------M -------------------------------------------------------W-----C --C-----------------E----T-------T-----E----------------S X--------------------O--O--[-]--O--O-------------------Y-------- -------------------------------------------------------A----Z----- -----------------------------Q------------------------------------ --------------------------F----------------------------------------
AND THIS....WHATS MY ISSUE? IM A MAN TO MAN GUY AND CAN MIX COVER 0, COVER 1, MAN UNDER COVER 2 AND VARIATIONS WHERE I HAVE DOUBLE COVERAGE ON CERTAIN GUYS. I CAN MIX MY RUSHERS TO BRING 4, 5, 6 PRETTY COMFORTABLY WITHOUT EVER PLAYING ZONE.
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Post by dubber on Jul 26, 2007 13:34:01 GMT -6
I believe in being simple, but you need enough diversity to have anwsers for what the other guy is doing. Coach Calande, Did you even read what I wrote, or did you glance through it enough to find out I disagreeing and go straight into using capital letters? Man doesn't just not work because the other guys are better.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:34:45 GMT -6
yes, stay in press man even if bunched, yes, play press man vs option, one of the main reasons a team, especially a spread team employs a bunch formation is to either force teams to "zone it up" or run mesh/rub stuff all day long against their man defense as they rub defenders off as they try to stay locked on man. "RUB" IS JUST A FANCY WORD FOR "PICK" WHICH IS ILLEGAL. NEXT ISSUE.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:36:03 GMT -6
I believe in being simple, but you need enough diversity to have anwsers for what the other guy is doing. Coach Calande, Did you even read what I wrote, or did you glance through it enough to find out I disagreeing and go straight into using capital letters? Man doesn't just not work because the other guys are better. NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT. I LIKE TYPING IN CAPS.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:37:56 GMT -6
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 26, 2007 13:39:49 GMT -6
one of the main reasons a team, especially a spread team employs a bunch formation is to either force teams to "zone it up" or run mesh/rub stuff all day long against their man defense as they rub defenders off as they try to stay locked on man. "RUB" IS JUST A FANCY WORD FOR "PICK" WHICH IS ILLEGAL. NEXT ISSUE. you might want to chill a little, here. from some of what you have drawn up, staying press man vs bunch is just much harder for defenders to stay leveraged on their receivers as it is often the defenders rubbing each other off due to the routes being run. irregardless of whether an offensive player "picks" a defender or not ... defenders have to avoid other defenders and avoid the other 2 receivers. need the ability to zone that up to prevent teams from running the various routes to create the needed separation ... i.e. the simplest is just bring #1 under, off the but of #2 going vertical ...
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Post by spreadattack on Jul 26, 2007 13:44:04 GMT -6
From a spread pass-offense perspective, you build your passing game to beat the heavy dropping zones, and then you work on the things you can do to their press-blitz-man defenses, every time.
The goal is to set it up so that if a team wants to play press-man-blitz every play, or even a ton of Cover 1, I will hurt them so bad that it will not be viable. Then, all your pass packages actually are designed to decimate the zone defenses that you have actually FORCED them to play.
This is not to say they can NEVER blitz, but what you have done is eliminated it as a constant or every down strategy. Then it does become a cat and mouse game where they try to slip in a well disguised blitz here and there when you aren't ready to make them pay for six. This is one reason why I don't like just relying on "hot reads." If the other team goes all out blitz against me, I really, really would like to score a touchdown and I don't just mean by throwing a 2 yard pass and expecting my guy to break 4 tackles.
Anyway, this is the trick of the spread offense (and many others). You actually force the defense into things because the alternatives are so devastating to them. Then it becomes a kind of game-theoretic "one-off" kind of deal where both sides try to steal a play or two there, and the true chess match begins.
What have I just described? I described the story of the run and shoot. They destroyed all teams that played the Calande blitz-press man for twenty years to the point where teams gave up. THEN the chess match actually began, and the shoot, the zone blitz, the spread, and the spread gun-run game, and all the other multiple-fanciness have been with us since.
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Post by dubber on Jul 26, 2007 13:44:24 GMT -6
Coach Calande, Did you even read what I wrote, or did you glance through it enough to find out I disagreeing and go straight into using capital letters? Man doesn't just not work because the other guys are better. NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT. I LIKE TYPING IN CAPS. When you're angry you do..... Let's get back to X's and O's my main point is: This is a false statement: Man coverage is not working........it must be because they have better athletes, nothing I can do, might as well get better at man. man coverage can also not work because the other team knows how to pick it apart (in which case, that becomes the coaches fault for not having an anwser for that within his scheme)------throwing in a zone defense, keeping guys in front of you, making good, sure, punishing tackles, is a way to give your team a chance against that team that is no more athletic than you, but can still eat press man alive.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 26, 2007 13:46:51 GMT -6
This is a false statement: Man coverage is not working........it must be because they have better athletes, nothing I can do, might as well get better at man. man coverage can also not work because the other team knows how to pick it apart (in which case, that becomes the coaches fault for not having an anwser for that within his scheme)------throwing in a zone defense, keeping guys in front of you, making good, sure, punishing tackles, is a way to give your team a chance against that team that is no more athletic than you, but can still eat press man alive. Bingo!! ... very well said
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:53:02 GMT -6
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
IF IT WAS "THAT EASY" TO BEAT MAN TO MAN DEFENSE THEN MARKHAM WOULDNT HAVE 300 PLUS CAREER VICTORIES AS A MAN TO MAN GUY. G. A. MOORE WOULDNT COME UP EVERY THREE MONTHS ON THIS FORUM AS THE AUTHOR OF THE "10-1 DEFENSE" EITHER.
BOTTOM LINE, YOU HANG YOUR HAT ON SOMETHING, COMMIT TO IT, GET GREAT AT IT AND BANK ON YOUR KIDS BELIEVING IN IT AND OPERATING WITHIN IT TO THE FULLEST OF THEIR ABILITY. NOW, I DO ENJOY WHEN FOLKS POINT OUT THAT MY EXPERIENCES ARE LIMITED TO "JR HIGH" OR "MIDDLE SCHOOL" AND THATS FINE, BUT I COACH MY TEAM AGAINT FROSH, TEAMS THAT ARE 100% MADE UP OF OLDER KIDS. THEY ARE RUNNING THE LOCAL HS OFFENSE AND WE HOLD OUR OWN.
EVERYTHING I DO IS SOUND, EVEN IF SOMEONE HERE "CAN BEAT IT ON PAPER" BY PASSING OR RUNNING OPTION (NOTE, ITS NOT COMMON FOR A TEAM TO BOTH RUN OPTION WELL AND PASS WELL ALSO)...I LIKE MY CHANCES.
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Post by wingman on Jul 26, 2007 13:55:16 GMT -6
For a good Wing T or DW team, fronts and shades matter little. GAp DOWN LBER puts an olineman on a path and he'll block whoever crosses it regardless of where that man started.
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Post by coachcalande on Jul 26, 2007 13:56:50 GMT -6
NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT. I LIKE TYPING IN CAPS. When you're angry you do..... Let's get back to X's and O's my main point is: This is a false statement: Man coverage is not working........it must be because they have better athletes, nothing I can do, might as well get better at man. man coverage can also not work because the other team knows how to pick it apart (in which case, that becomes the coaches fault for not having an anwser for that within his scheme)------throwing in a zone defense, keeping guys in front of you, making good, sure, punishing tackles, is a way to give your team a chance against that team that is no more athletic than you, but can still eat press man alive. thats bs, if I cant cover a kid what makes you think I can tackle him? thats just silly. if the kid is so talented that we cant jam and run with him for three seconds why should i expect that we can allow him space to run thru and still tackle him??? gimme a break.
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Post by Coach Huey on Jul 26, 2007 14:01:39 GMT -6
thats bs, if I cant cover a kid what makes you think I can tackle him? thats just silly. if the kid is so talented that we cant jam and run with him for three seconds why should i expect that we can allow him space to run thru and still tackle him??? gimme a break. wow ...
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