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Post by funkfriss on Jan 18, 2018 11:54:49 GMT -6
....tell a kid you didn't want him to come out for football because you don't like him and his character?
I've got a kid who is sneaky and I honestly don't trust him and don't want him around our team. It's widely believed that he is involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity although he's never been caught. Administration and even law enforcement are onto him. He's one of those smart kids who thinks he's invincible, above authority and rules, and that he'll never get caught. The "problem" is he hasn't been caught doing anything.
Anybody have a similar issue? How did you deal with it?
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Post by gators41 on Jan 18, 2018 12:15:24 GMT -6
Belichick and Franklin said it best, we work too many hours to be around someone who makes us miserable.
Couple of thoughts... 1. Cover yourself. What you are thinking is not legal in most public schools. Most have rules on tryouts, not all enforce them 2. No way you can help the kid?
I would most likely give him a chance, with a very short imaginary leash that he would not know about. If he wasnt falling in line, he would be eliminated quickly.
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Post by 54695469 on Jan 18, 2018 12:37:49 GMT -6
Have you ever/would you ever invite a person with cholera to dinner? No. Why invite trouble?
Spare me the "holier than thou" stuff, please. Any description of a kid that contains the word "sneaky" should raise a big red flag!
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Post by mnike23 on Jan 18, 2018 12:54:34 GMT -6
....tell a kid you didn't want him to come out for football because you don't like him and his character? I've got a kid who is sneaky and I honestly don't trust him and don't want him around our team. It's widely believed that he is involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity although he's never been caught. Administration and even law enforcement are onto him. He's one of those smart kids who thinks he's invincible, above authority and rules, and that he'll never get caught. The "problem" is he hasn't been caught doing anything. Anybody have a similar issue? How did you deal with it? i would let him come to workouts and explain that workouts are not mandatory, but if you want to play you should be there. when hes there, its the toughest workout the players can handle. make him quit on his own. hold him accountable to be there, question why he isnt there. if you can get a ball out, put him on the field and let the players abuse him physically and mentally. now,if the kid can ball out and take all that mental and physical abuse. maybe, just maybe, you could be what he has needed in his life. kids are in gangs, why? they need a sense of family. well isnt that what a good football program is? a family. we fight, argue, yell, hit, etc... but after friday night we are hugging and laughing about the win and hugging and crying about the loss. its possible he doesnt have that at home and needs something. maybe you could be the something...... cream will rise to the top, its true. true colors will come out in a test of adversity. i would test him and see.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2018 13:04:17 GMT -6
Have you ever/would you ever invite a person with cholera to dinner? No. Why invite trouble? Spare me the "holier than thou" stuff, please. Any description of a kid that contains the word "sneaky" should raise a big red flag! I don't think anyone here is showing a holy than thou attitude (which I don't actually think you are using correctly anyway). The point is that smart "sneaky" kids generally find ways to know what they are entitled to, and in most places, you can't tell someone "you can't come out for the football team" just because of suspicions.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 18, 2018 13:16:05 GMT -6
Yes. I just flat tell they probably won’t ever see the field because their attitude is crap and I don’t trust them. That eliminates 85% of them. Practice or lifting usually eliminates another 13%. About under 1% make it through yhe year.
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Post by 50slantstrong on Jan 18, 2018 13:42:44 GMT -6
In your situation he probably won't make grades so that problem might solve itself.
We've had foul balls come out before and the conversation with them usually is "This isn't a rec league team. We don't just let anybody who shows up with a pair of gym shorts be a part of the program. Just so you know, the principal has brought your name as a person of interest in x, y and z so you're on everybody's radar. If you want to shape up and be a part of this, we'll be happy to have you. If not, you're on a short leash, not just with us, but with the school as well. Tread lightly".
And to be honest, every single time we've had that conversation, that kid has never shown his face again, or they realize they're biting off more than they can chew and get gone within the span of a few weeks.
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Post by **** on Jan 18, 2018 13:59:16 GMT -6
I would, and have.
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Post by coachkeating33 on Jan 18, 2018 14:05:09 GMT -6
....tell a kid you didn't want him to come out for football because you don't like him and his character? I've got a kid who is sneaky and I honestly don't trust him and don't want him around our team. It's widely believed that he is involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity although he's never been caught. Administration and even law enforcement are onto him. He's one of those smart kids who thinks he's invincible, above authority and rules, and that he'll never get caught. The "problem" is he hasn't been caught doing anything. Anybody have a similar issue? How did you deal with it? depends on how good he is......unless he was caught red handed
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Post by RunThePistol on Jan 18, 2018 14:18:11 GMT -6
Not a head coach, just my thought:
I'd rather lose with a high character kid, than win with a terd... To me sounds like the kid has more negatives in his favor than positives. Don't invite cancers into the room.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 18, 2018 14:39:32 GMT -6
Tough spot. Tail of two districts. I worked in one where I was pretty sure if I told a kid no you can't play I would not get the backing I needed. So I would let the kids come out and they usually quit or ran themselves off. If they disappeared after a few days I just cleaned out their locker and told the AD the kid was AWOL and I collected his gear. I understand the AD's thoughts. Let the kid hang himself then at least we can say we tried.
New school I am at (assistant) has an entirely different culture. I am sure the head coach has told kids "we don't need you." But here, those kids usually don't show up because they know if they act like a turd they are done.
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Post by jrk5150 on Jan 18, 2018 14:42:16 GMT -6
Kid like that, telling him you don't want him is probably a guarantee to get him to come out for the team.
Ignore the kid. THAT'S what he won't like...
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Post by funkfriss on Jan 18, 2018 14:52:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the comments.
If I flat out told him not to come out that would cause a problem. Like others have mentioned, I can’t force a kid to not be in the team unless he did something wrong. Can’t just be, I don’t like the kid.
He likes football, comes to lifting, gets good grades, etc, etc. he just can’t be trusted. He’s literally the kid who will cry a sob story about his grandma dying to get out of a problem and smirk about it on the way out the door. I’ve been doing this long enough to know which kids from rough backgrounds have a good heart and which ones are egocentric, lack empathy, and are borderline evil. He fits the second group.
But he hasn’t done anything wrong....
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2018 15:02:17 GMT -6
Thanks for the comments. If I flat out told him not to come out that would cause a problem. Like others have mentioned, I can’t force a kid to not be in the team unless he did something wrong. Can’t just be, I don’t like the kid. He likes football, comes to lifting, gets good grades, etc, etc. he just can’t be trusted. He’s literally the kid who will cry a sob story about his grandma dying to get out of a problem and smirk about it on the way out the door. I’ve been doing this long enough to know which kids from rough backgrounds have a good heart and which ones are egocentric, lack empathy, and are borderline evil. He fits the second group. But he hasn’t done anything wrong.... If he is that kid, and you try to keep him from doing something based on gut instinct or reputation, you KNOW he is going to use that to create problems for you.
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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 18, 2018 15:47:03 GMT -6
Thanks for the comments. If I flat out told him not to come out that would cause a problem. Like others have mentioned, I can’t force a kid to not be in the team unless he did something wrong. Can’t just be, I don’t like the kid. He likes football, comes to lifting, gets good grades, etc, etc. he just can’t be trusted. He’s literally the kid who will cry a sob story about his grandma dying to get out of a problem and smirk about it on the way out the door. I’ve been doing this long enough to know which kids from rough backgrounds have a good heart and which ones are egocentric, lack empathy, and are borderline evil. He fits the second group. But he hasn’t done anything wrong.... Do you guys have a written/signed code of conduct? One of the most underrated forms of discipline, in my mind, is taking away practice reps. If you don't take reps in practice, we can't play you. If you weaseled out of ____, you can't take practice reps. When I was an HC, the attendance policy was "there's no such thing as an excused absence" since you can't go do makeup work at home. Means any absence can impact your playing time, because it will be up to us to determine your game readiness, and doesn't lock us into some silly unintended consequence of having a firm policy. They just have to stand and watch. We did this with scout team reps, drill reps, etc. It also doesn't get parents riled up like suspending them from all or part of a game does, but it does explain why they aren't playing.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 18, 2018 17:11:38 GMT -6
Thanks for the comments. If I flat out told him not to come out that would cause a problem. Like others have mentioned, I can’t force a kid to not be in the team unless he did something wrong. Can’t just be, I don’t like the kid. He likes football, comes to lifting, gets good grades, etc, etc. he just can’t be trusted. He’s literally the kid who will cry a sob story about his grandma dying to get out of a problem and smirk about it on the way out the door. I’ve been doing this long enough to know which kids from rough backgrounds have a good heart and which ones are egocentric, lack empathy, and are borderline evil. He fits the second group. But he hasn’t done anything wrong.... Do you guys have a written/signed code of conduct? One of the most underrated forms of discipline, in my mind, is taking away practice reps. If you don't take reps in practice, we can't play you. If you weaseled out of ____, you can't take practice reps. When I was an HC, the attendance policy was "there's no such thing as an excused absence" since you can't go do makeup work at home. Means any absence can impact your playing time, because it will be up to us to determine your game readiness, and doesn't lock us into some silly unintended consequence of having a firm policy. They just have to stand and watch. We did this with scout team reps, drill reps, etc. It also doesn't get parents riled up like suspending them from all or part of a game does, but it does explain why they aren't playing. I like this a lot. Did you ever have problems though at positions where there was no real competition? How did you handle those situations?
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Post by 33coach on Jan 18, 2018 17:16:03 GMT -6
you probably are opening yourself up for some sort of discrimination complaint.
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Post by blb on Jan 18, 2018 17:24:33 GMT -6
First, how can you cut-kick off a kid before he comes out for the team (practice starts)?
No place I coached would allow you to do that.
Second, if you believe HS football can teach kids character, commitment, responsibility, teamwork, etc. - why would you deny him the opportunity?
And if you don't why are you coaching? Do you only want to deal with the ones who already have those things?
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Post by coachfrigo on Jan 18, 2018 17:26:11 GMT -6
You don't have to give a reason for cutting a kid.
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Post by blb on Jan 18, 2018 17:39:48 GMT -6
You don't have to give a reason for cutting a kid. When it's not even Football season?
And if you just tell a kid "I don't like you and your character" (as funkfriss posted) - you damn sure will have to give a reason when his parents confront your administrators.
Don't know where you work coachfrigo but that wouldn't fly anywhere I've been.
Nor would I do it anyway.
funkfriss admitted "he hasn't been caught doing anything."
Even in the Age of Trump you'd better have evidence-two legs to stand on before you deny someone their rights. "I believe you're involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity" is not a defense.
If he really is as funkfriss says - let him hang himself, not you. If he is, eventually he'll give coach real reason(s) to fire him.
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Post by fantom on Jan 18, 2018 18:09:41 GMT -6
I've never played on or coached a team where I liked everybody on the team. If the kid hasn't done anything I don't see how you can keep him off of the team.
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Post by Coach.A on Jan 18, 2018 18:42:28 GMT -6
Ask your Captains what they think about having him on the roster. Ask if they foresee any potential problems with having him on the team. If the kid is a drug dealer the players on your team probably know.
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Post by coachfrigo on Jan 18, 2018 19:03:02 GMT -6
You don't have to give a reason for cutting a kid. When it's not even Football season?
And if you just tell a kid "I don't like you and your character" (as funkfriss posted) - you damn sure will have to give a reason when his parents confront your administrators.
Don't know where you work coachfrigo but that wouldn't fly anywhere I've been.
Nor would I do it anyway.
funkfriss admitted "he hasn't been caught doing anything."
Even in the Age of Trump you'd better have evidence-two legs to stand on before you deny someone their rights. "I believe you're involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity" is not a defense.
If he really is as funkfriss says - let him hang himself, not you. If he is, eventually he'll give coach real reason(s) to fire him.
Definitely not when it's not football season. And I wouldn't do it either. I'd probably push the kid harder. Either he quits, or he builds character. In the latter situation, everyone wins.
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Post by carookie on Jan 18, 2018 21:32:23 GMT -6
I would call them on their BS out of the gate (suspected drug dealing, sneakiness, etc) and tell them exactly how difficult things would be and what you expect from someone to be on the team (including how they will behave). Most people won't stick around and try to pull one over once they know you are on to them.
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Post by 50slantstrong on Jan 18, 2018 23:06:52 GMT -6
I would call them on their BS out of the gate (suspected drug dealing, sneakiness, etc) and tell them exactly how difficult things would be and what you expect from someone to be on the team (including how they will behave). Most people won't stick around and try to pull one over once they know you are on to them. I’d be careful with that approach. You’re going to call a kid something he hasn’t been proven to be. Admin, school board etc can put a foot in your a for that one. Not worth having to deal with all that noise for a kid who’s probably not going to make it anyway.
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Post by carookie on Jan 19, 2018 0:08:52 GMT -6
I would call them on their BS out of the gate (suspected drug dealing, sneakiness, etc) and tell them exactly how difficult things would be and what you expect from someone to be on the team (including how they will behave). Most people won't stick around and try to pull one over once they know you are on to them. I’d be careful with that approach. You’re going to call a kid something he hasn’t been proven to be. Admin, school board etc can put a foot in your a for that one. Not worth having to deal with all that noise for a kid who’s probably not going to make it anyway. I aint calling a kid anything. I'm telling a kid about the rumors about him. If I heard it through the grapevine that Tanner is slinging heroin and I tell him that "I heard that he's selling H; and that concerns me." Im not calling him anything, im laying out for him what Ive heard. It establishes that we as coaches are aware that there are talksmaboutna possible issue and lets them kniw up front we arent naive. Kid then knows they are entering a situation where eyes are on them so if there ismsomething going on they may be hesitant
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Post by CS on Jan 19, 2018 4:49:52 GMT -6
I’d be careful with that approach. You’re going to call a kid something he hasn’t been proven to be. Admin, school board etc can put a foot in your a for that one. Not worth having to deal with all that noise for a kid who’s probably not going to make it anyway. I aint calling a kid anything. I'm telling a kid about the rumors about him. If I heard it through the grapevine that Tanner is slinging heroin and I tell him that "I heard that he's selling H; and that concerns me." Im not calling him anything, im laying out for him what Ive heard. It establishes that we as coaches are aware that there are talksmaboutna possible issue and lets them kniw up front we arent naive. Kid then knows they are entering a situation where eyes are on them so if there ismsomething going on they may be hesitant Where the he!! Have you coached where you have to worry about kids selling heroin?? Most we deal with here is weed and pills. Anyway, I like this approach. Just be honest with the kid and tell him what you have heard. I’m of the opinion that I don’t want to make a judgment on hear say. I have worked with far to many sorry teachers that have problems with some of the best kids on the team to take anyone’s opinion of a kid without me really getting to know them. Sometimes the kids prove them right but at least I confronted it and found out for myself.
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Post by conrad81 on Jan 19, 2018 7:48:40 GMT -6
Have you ever/would you ever invite a person with cholera to dinner? No. Why invite trouble? Spare me the "holier than thou" stuff, please. Any description of a kid that contains the word "sneaky" should raise a big red flag! I've had kids like this... and was very clear with our team expectations for them. These types of kids usually come around in January, but fade by March-April. Eventually, they take care of themselves and fall out. However, I've had a few stick and they were better for it. Yes, we don't want the headaches - not sure if this is holier than thou, or just my honest perspective. We are in the education business and that means helping young people be successful. We may not like the choices some of them make, but it is our job to help them develop and grow. Will he fall short? maybe, maybe not. I've had poor athletes with a poor character that made improvements and just wanted to be around it. I've had great athletes with poor character that couldn't make good decisions that cost them a free college education at Power 5 schools. (A player spent time in jail). I would say be consistent. Give the kid every opportunity like you would anyone else. If he does things to jeopardize that chance, then take action. Certainly, document each transgression and communicate effectively with him, his parents, and administration. Who knows - maybe you are the one to be the difference in his life. Maybe not. Football doesn't need everyone, but everyone could need football.
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Post by conrad81 on Jan 19, 2018 7:58:40 GMT -6
Not a head coach, just my thought: I'd rather lose with a high character kid, than win with a terd... To me sounds like the kid has more negatives in his favor than positives. Don't invite cancers into the room. With all due respect - he's not inviting him - the kid has shown interest. I agree - high character kids are easier and fun to win with. However - sometimes, it's our jobs as coaches to develop that character - tough as it may be. Some learn the hard way. Be clear with expectations. Handle his transgressions like any other player.
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Post by conrad81 on Jan 19, 2018 8:06:12 GMT -6
First, how can you cut-kick off a kid before he comes out for the team (practice starts)? No place I coached would allow you to do that. Second, if you believe HS football can teach kids character, commitment, responsibility, teamwork, etc. - why would you deny him the opportunity? And if you don't why are you coaching? Do you only want to deal with the ones who already have those things? Exactly - like this a lot. I know there are kids that 'rub us the wrong way' and make life difficult for us.... maybe I'm just an idealist, but that is your job! Yes, he may not make it and he may screw up - but at least you tried and did your job. I just hate the attitude of turning kids away. Yes, I've had those difficult kids and didn't appreciate them at all, but I tried.
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