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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 26, 2018 12:00:21 GMT -6
Agree to disagree. I'm not a HC, but I would not want to be at a school where too many referrals or poor grades were not cause for forbidding a tryout.
Poor grades = possibly academically ineligible. If not he can come out.
How many referrals are "too many"? How far back? Who decides?
Every school I coached at an Athletic Code of Conduct or similar including eligibility and training rules that applied to all sports.
No sport could come up with their own.
I'd add that this isn't an "agree to disagree" issue. It's pretty well settled. You can't actually prevent kids from participating in a no-cut sport based on your own whims. If the school has a policy for all sports that, say, five referrals equals no sports (which would be a terrible rule, btw), that's what you could operate on. |
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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 26, 2018 12:05:24 GMT -6
I've told kids not to come out before strictly because of how they act in class. If you're an athlete and you can't act right in PE class for your future coach, then that's a pretty big warning sign. I've also cut a kid based on his behavior in my class (I honestly told him it was between him and another kid who were even across the board, except for their behavior...and you know what, he fixed it and was a model student after that). If they come out and we don't have to cut, then I'll definitely give them a chance, but I'm not going to give them a spot on the team when it can go to someone who busts their tail and is respectful on top of it. I'd argue there's a big difference between "hey man, if this is how you act in class, I'm not sure coming out for football is a great idea," and "I heard you're a drug dealer, so you can't play football." You could argue the first is an attempt at generating some self-realization and creating an incentive for them to get their act together. The second is highly problematic... Football is a no-cut sport for us. Are you guys allowed to cut? |
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Post by 33coach on Jan 26, 2018 12:16:27 GMT -6
I've told kids not to come out before strictly because of how they act in class. If you're an athlete and you can't act right in PE class for your future coach, then that's a pretty big warning sign. I've also cut a kid based on his behavior in my class (I honestly told him it was between him and another kid who were even across the board, except for their behavior...and you know what, he fixed it and was a model student after that). If they come out and we don't have to cut, then I'll definitely give them a chance, but I'm not going to give them a spot on the team when it can go to someone who busts their tail and is respectful on top of it. I'd argue there's a big difference between "hey man, if this is how you act in class, I'm not sure coming out for football is a great idea," and "I heard you're a drug dealer, so you can't play football." You could argue the first is an attempt at generating some self-realization and creating an incentive for them to get their act together. The second is highly problematic... Football is a no-cut sport for us. Are you guys allowed to cut? first of all, the moment you say "i heard" you need to realize that your sources typically suck in a school environment: 1) parents talk nonsense 2) kids are worse so "hearing" something and "knowing" something are vastly different. you should always go with option 1. a real sit down and talking to his in class issues (with documented proof) is trying to help and being a mentor... the other is being a pr*ck to a kid who probably has it rough enough as it is.. |
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Post by tothehouse on Jan 26, 2018 12:35:55 GMT -6
What if your program had standards in place of how all people need to act...inside of everything. Class, off the field, weight room, on the field, etc.
Then you sit the kid down and say..."Billy...you're not fitting yourself into these parts of what we're doing". Have the discussion and send him on his way. Basically they get to "cut" themselves. It could be well before the season, during the summer, during the season.
Not sure if this fits everything in this particular case, but at least you have a guideline for the program that you can bring every kid in that has something going on and check to see if they are fitting into the program.
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Post by newt21 on Jan 26, 2018 13:04:09 GMT -6
I've told kids not to come out before strictly because of how they act in class. If you're an athlete and you can't act right in PE class for your future coach, then that's a pretty big warning sign. I've also cut a kid based on his behavior in my class (I honestly told him it was between him and another kid who were even across the board, except for their behavior...and you know what, he fixed it and was a model student after that). If they come out and we don't have to cut, then I'll definitely give them a chance, but I'm not going to give them a spot on the team when it can go to someone who busts their tail and is respectful on top of it. I'd argue there's a big difference between "hey man, if this is how you act in class, I'm not sure coming out for football is a great idea," and "I heard you're a drug dealer, so you can't play football." You could argue the first is an attempt at generating some self-realization and creating an incentive for them to get their act together. The second is highly problematic... Football is a no-cut sport for us. Are you guys allowed to cut? We are allowed to cut, we're limited on equipment, coaches, and jerseys. We only have 2 paid positions and have 45 total jerseys. And you're right, doing what I do is completely different from "I heard such and such" but at the same time, according to the OP, I have told a kid not to come out before, even though the main purpose is to help them realize what they're doing won't fly. |
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 13:23:21 GMT -6
I was HFC for 31 years at six high schools.
I am certain that if I tried to tell a student he or she could not come out for Football before practice started I would not have been supported by administration at any of them.
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 13:52:34 GMT -6
We are allowed to cut, we're limited on equipment, coaches, and jerseys. We only have 2 paid positions and have 45 total jerseys. And you're right, doing what I do is completely different from "I heard such and such" but at the same time, according to the OP, I have told a kid not to come out before, even though the main purpose is to help them realize what they're doing won't fly.
At one of my schools we typically had 100-120 kids come out 9-12.
One year we had almost 150 (in spite of the school instituting "Pay to Play" that year). We did not have enough helmets and shoulder pads.
The district had to spend over $3000 to outfit all of them.
If anyone tried to tell my child he-she could not play because there were not enough coaches or equipment I can assure you I would go to the administration and BOE if necessary as a parent-tax payer to strongly advocate for them to spend the necessary money so they did not deny anyone the opportunity to participate.
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Post by ylspecial on Jan 26, 2018 14:00:17 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jan 26, 2018 14:17:50 GMT -6
Kids with the Eddie Haskell syndrome are the toughest to deal with. In your gut you know the kid is being "sneaky," but you can't really do much in terms of reprimands just because your "gut" is telling you something. These kids know how to play the game.
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 14:27:32 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him.
Our kids and their parents all had to sign a document that they had read and agreed to abide by the district's Athletic Code of Conduct before they could participate.
So having individuals agree to a "contract" would not only have been superfluous-redundant but not held any water when push came to shove.
Our players knew that quickest, surest way to get in the head coach's dog house and suffer consequences was to miss practice or be late.
Being tardy to class is a school issue and should be handled as such. If you as coach try to punish them further for that it amounts to "double jeopardy" and all you do is alienate the young person.
If they're not learning the importance of self-discipline, responsibility, accountability in your program and it doesn't carry over into the classroom and beyond, then maybe you have the problem.
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Post by newt21 on Jan 26, 2018 15:05:16 GMT -6
We are allowed to cut, we're limited on equipment, coaches, and jerseys. We only have 2 paid positions and have 45 total jerseys. And you're right, doing what I do is completely different from "I heard such and such" but at the same time, according to the OP, I have told a kid not to come out before, even though the main purpose is to help them realize what they're doing won't fly.
At one of my schools we typically had 100-120 kids come out 9-12.
One year we had almost 150 (in spite of the school instituting "Pay to Play" that year). We did not have enough helmets and shoulder pads.
The district had to spend over $3000 to outfit all of them.
If anyone tried to tell my child he-she could not play because there were not enough coaches or equipment I can assure you I would go to the administration and BOE if necessary as a parent-tax payer to strongly advocate for them to spend the necessary money so they did not deny anyone the opportunity to participate.
Well we only have 2 grades, 7th and 8th. Going to the administration or the BOE wouldn't solve anything because it's county policy that participation is a privilege and not a right. Also, I wouldn't be coaching at a place where I had no say-so as to who is participating on the team. Out of curiosity, what happens if that many kids go out for baseball? Are they all required to make the team as well? |
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Post by 33coach on Jan 26, 2018 15:07:09 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him. you cant punish him for in school acts... thats not how this works. if the principle and AD want to suspend him from ECs... then thats their business & can do so.... you cant. |
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 15:40:36 GMT -6
Out of curiosity, what happens if that many kids go out for baseball? Are they all required to make the team as well?
I have coached in districts that have "no-cut" policies at MS level.
i.e. they have "A' and "B" teams at both 7th and 8th grade Basketball and all have to get in games, for example.
Baseball as I'm sure you understand is not the same as Football.
Baseball can't two-platoon.
And by the time kids reach a certain age they realize they're not pitchers or can't hit a curveball.
Kids who don't make Little League All-Star teams by 13 usually find something else to do.
I know I did.
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Post by newt21 on Jan 26, 2018 15:55:16 GMT -6
I have coached in districts that have "no-cut" policies at MS level.
i.e. they have "A' and "B" teams at both 7th and 8th grade Basketball and all have to get in games, for example.
Baseball as I'm sure you understand is not the same as Football.
Baseball can't two-platoon.
And by the time kids reach a certain age they realize they're not pitchers or can't hit a curveball.
I know I did.
We have a 7th grade team and an 8th grade team, each can have up to 45 players (90 total for our school) but I only coach one of the two teams. I know baseball is different, however if you're so ready to go to BOE over one sport, why not another? Why not have an A and B team for baseball (btw, not all kids realize they shouldn't be playing baseball, we have kids come out that can't hit off a tee much less a curveball, also ones that can't make a throw from 2nd to 1st). At our school, cutting doesn't occur much because we've had low numbers, my point was we can have "up to" a certain number based on those other things. At the end of the day, I CAN cut at any number I choose (our AD has been very clear in that regard) I just choose not to cut unless I have to (based on numbers, not anything else). Having said all that, I've still told kids not to come out if they don't change their ways, if they come out then they will have a chance just like everybody else (and it shows that they're willing to change by coming out). If they don't come out, they aren't willing to change and neither of us are wasting our time. |
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 16:06:38 GMT -6
We have a 7th grade team and an 8th grade team, each can have up to 45 players (90 total for our school) but I only coach one of the two teams. I know baseball is different, however if you're so ready to go to BOE over one sport, why not another? Why not have an A and B team for baseball (btw, not all kids realize they shouldn't be playing baseball, we have kids come out that can't hit off a tee much less a curveball, also ones that can't make a throw from 2nd to 1st). At our school, cutting doesn't occur much because we've had low numbers, my point was we can have "up to" a certain number based on those other things. At the end of the day, I CAN cut at any number I choose (our AD has been very clear in that regard) I just choose not to cut unless I have to (based on numbers, not anything else). Having said all that, I've still told kids not to come out if they don't change their ways, if they come out then they will have a chance just like everybody else (and it shows that they're willing to change by coming out). If they don't come out, they aren't willing to change and neither of us are wasting our time.
newt21
Fair enough, works for you in your situation including adminstrative support.
But cutting a kid from baseball because he can't hit off a tee or throw from 2nd to 1st is different than cutting him-her from Football.
What objective criteria do you have for that?
Also - from your posts it's obvious you coach at MS/7th-8th grade level.
Surely you must realize that a lot of kids at that age, athletic ability aside, are very immature and could benefit from being in a well-run Football program such as yours.
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Post by newt21 on Jan 26, 2018 16:21:44 GMT -6
We have a 7th grade team and an 8th grade team, each can have up to 45 players (90 total for our school) but I only coach one of the two teams. I know baseball is different, however if you're so ready to go to BOE over one sport, why not another? Why not have an A and B team for baseball (btw, not all kids realize they shouldn't be playing baseball, we have kids come out that can't hit off a tee much less a curveball, also ones that can't make a throw from 2nd to 1st). At our school, cutting doesn't occur much because we've had low numbers, my point was we can have "up to" a certain number based on those other things. At the end of the day, I CAN cut at any number I choose (our AD has been very clear in that regard) I just choose not to cut unless I have to (based on numbers, not anything else). Having said all that, I've still told kids not to come out if they don't change their ways, if they come out then they will have a chance just like everybody else (and it shows that they're willing to change by coming out). If they don't come out, they aren't willing to change and neither of us are wasting our time.
newt21
Fair enough, works for you in your situation including adminstrative support.
But cutting a kid from baseball because he can't hit off a tee or throw from 2nd to 1st is different than cutting him-her from Football.
What objective criteria do you have for that?
During tryouts we put kids through different drills to test them and each one has a rubric for grading objectively. I do this in case I have a parental concern for why "Jimmy" didn't make the team. I don't share other kids scores with their names, but I do say other kids scored, say, a 4 while Jimmy scored a 2, for example and this is what a 4 means and what a 2 means. You can also tell when we do lots of our drills which kids are really trying hard, and which ones aren't. We grade them on coachability, if a coach asks you to get into this type of stance and it has to keep being repeated, then that's an issue (I'm talking about as simple as inside foot up, nothing incredibly technical). We start teaching tackling technique using the Heads Up model and some of the non-contact hawk tackling technique. We can't have body-to-body contact, but if a kid isn't willing to hit a pad, he probably won't be willing to hit a person. All of these things go into whether a kid makes the team or not (if we have to cut). There's actually even more than this, but I feel like my point has been made with what is listed above. |
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Post by ylspecial on Jan 29, 2018 6:13:24 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him. you cant punish him for in school acts... thats not how this works. if the principle and AD want to suspend him from ECs... then thats their business & can do so.... you cant. Absolutely you can. Read my second sentence. Get the AD and Principal's signature. If a kid gets suspended 10 days for fighting, he is dismissed from the team, period. While he wears your jersey, he is a direct reflection on your team. Playing sports is a privilege, not a right. |
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Post by blb on Jan 29, 2018 7:42:41 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him. How do you "have the AD and principal sign" and "Make sure they back you up"?
What if they won't or don't - or can't when parents go over their heads to superintendent and-or BOE?
When push comes to shove - such contracts aren't worth very much.
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Post by 33coach on Jan 29, 2018 11:01:31 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him. How do you "have the AD and principal sign" and "Make sure they back you up"?
What if they won't or don't - or can't when parents go over their heads to superintendent and-or BOE?
When push comes to shove - such contracts aren't worth very much.
a contract signed by a minor might as well be used as TP.... |
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Post by ylspecial on Jan 30, 2018 5:48:43 GMT -6
Have him sign a contract that outlines he is on a very short leash. Have the AD and principal sign as well. Make sure they back you up. Then, any issues in the classroom or outside of school will disqualify him from participating. As soon as he is late to class, gets suspended, or post pics on social media smoking weed, get rid of him. How do you "have the AD and principal sign" and "Make sure they back you up"?
What if they won't or don't - or can't when parents go over their heads to superintendent and-or BOE?
When push comes to shove - such contracts aren't worth very much.
Multiple Winter sports athletes have been dismissed from teams in the past few weeks at our school. If the AD and Principal signed off on a behavior contract, it will be honored. If parents want to go to the Superintendent or BOE because their little Johnny was removed from the football team after he got into a fight, smoked some dope, or threw up some gang signs at school, let them. Have a backbone as a coach and teach our young men their are consequences. |
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Post by ylspecial on Jan 30, 2018 5:49:09 GMT -6
How do you "have the AD and principal sign" and "Make sure they back you up"?
What if they won't or don't - or can't when parents go over their heads to superintendent and-or BOE?
When push comes to shove - such contracts aren't worth very much.
a contract signed by a minor might as well be used as TP.... As are asinine arguments on a message board. |
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Post by blb on Jan 30, 2018 6:01:22 GMT -6
a contract signed by a minor might as well be used as TP.... As are asinine arguments on a message board. I suggest you read the thread "Admin telling you that you can't remove a player?".
Smoking dope isn't the same as being tardy to class. That'll get you suspended everywhere without an individual contract.
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Post by blb on Jan 30, 2018 7:56:49 GMT -6
How do you "have the AD and principal sign" and "Make sure they back you up"?
What if they won't or don't - or can't when parents go over their heads to superintendent and-or BOE?
When push comes to shove - such contracts aren't worth very much.
Multiple Winter sports athletes have been dismissed from teams in the past few weeks at our school. If the AD and Principal signed off on a behavior contract, it will be honored. If parents want to go to the Superintendent or BOE because their little Johnny was removed from the football team after he got into a fight, smoked some dope, or threw up some gang signs at school, let them. Have a backbone as a coach and teach our young men their are consequences. IF the AD and principal signed off on it...how do you get them to do that? Your qualifier suggests doesn't always happen.
Easy to say "Have a backbone" but what do you do when superintendent comes to you and says, "You can't dismiss that young man"?
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Post by coachcb on Jan 30, 2018 8:26:15 GMT -6
We have a kid in the school that is a screaming PITA. He lies through his teeth about everything, he's a defiant and disruptive chit, he steals, he's been busted drinking and drugging by the cops, etc..etc.. He told me he wants to play football next year and I smiled, nodded, and said "that's great". I wanted to tell him to stay the hell away from the football team but I'd get into trouble for that. However, little does he realize that the football field is MY WORLD and it's a privilege for him to be a part of it. I will run him out of the program in a heart-beat if he screws around next year.
I will never tell a kid he shouldn't play football for us. Sometimes it's just what the kid needs; a good football season will provide them with the structure they need to succeed. That's not the case with the kid I described above; he's a friggin' nightmare. And, I will get into a world of chit if I tell a kid not to play a sport. But, sports are a privilege and they are not a right; I'm stuck putting up with his crap during the school day but I won't do it in a sport season.
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Post by coachdirt on Jan 30, 2018 8:37:20 GMT -6
Now, not every case is going to be 6'4" 250... but just heard a clip about a Coach, Jody Cwik, from Dwayne Johnson, that shines some perspective on this. Easy work isn't work.
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Post by blb on Jan 30, 2018 8:37:22 GMT -6
We have a kid in the school that is a screaming PITA. He lies through his teeth about everything, he's a defiant and disruptive chit, he steals, he's been busted drinking and drugging by the cops, etc..etc.. He told me he wants to play football next year and I smiled, nodded, and said "that's great". I wanted to tell him to stay the hell away from the football team but I'd get into trouble for that. However, little does he realize that the football field is MY WORLD and it's a privilege for him to be a part of it. I will run him out of the program in a heart-beat if he screws around next year. I will never tell a kid he shouldn't play football for us. Sometimes it's just what the kid needs; a good football season will provide them with the structure they need to succeed. That's not the case with the kid I described above; he's a friggin' nightmare. And, I will get into a world of chit if I tell a kid not to play a sport. But, sports are a privilege and they are not a right; I'm stuck putting up with his crap during the school day but I won't do it in a sport season. Such kids are often what I call Spring Football players - in Spring they talk about playing but aren't around in August.
Even if he does show up when practice starts, chances are he won't last long. Won't be able to tolerate the demands-rigors of the sport.
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dbeck84
Sophomore Member
Posts: 170
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Post by dbeck84 on Jan 30, 2018 8:53:49 GMT -6
Every school I've been affiliated with, and by my knowledge every school in the state of Illinois, has a code of conduct that addresses punishment for things such as smoking, drinking, fighting, etc. If a player is caught doing something against the code of conduct, it is an administrative issue and out of the coaches hands. Is this not the case everywhere?
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Post by 33coach on Jan 30, 2018 9:52:04 GMT -6
That's universal as far as I know.
Also anything that involves suspension automatically suspends you from sports and ECs everywhere I've been..
Hence my comment. Some contract saying "I shall not be tardy" signed by a kid is worthless. No one will back you when you go to enforce it.
Sent from my Pixel using proboards
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Post by fantom on Jan 30, 2018 9:56:09 GMT -6
Every school I've been affiliated with, and by my knowledge every school in the state of Illinois, has a code of conduct that addresses punishment for things such as smoking, drinking, fighting, etc. If a player is caught doing something against the code of conduct, it is an administrative issue and out of the coaches hands. Is this not the case everywhere? But the OP said that the kid hasn't actually done anything. They just suspect that he did. |
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Post by newt21 on Jan 30, 2018 10:08:14 GMT -6
That's universal as far as I know. Also anything that involves suspension automatically suspends you from sports and ECs everywhere I've been.. Hence my comment. Some contract saying "I shall not be tardy" signed by a kid is worthless. No one will back you when you go to enforce it. Sent from my Pixel using proboards It's written in our athletic policy that if a student gets OSS (out of school suspension) that they miss X percent of the season's games and may be removed from the team. The player will also have to account for the practices missed during that span. It is also in our policy that if you serve ISS (in school suspension) that you can't participate in any after school event which includes practice. Therefore, if you get ISS you miss practice, and you now are penalized for missing practice just like you would for OSS. They're not penalized for the ISS, but they are penalized for missing practice. The contract the other coach is speaking of, I would imagine, wouldn't be for a first time offense on a tardy but a consistent issue with it, otherwise the contract wouldn't be necessary. |
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