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Post by carookie on Jan 19, 2018 8:31:58 GMT -6
I aint calling a kid anything. I'm telling a kid about the rumors about him. If I heard it through the grapevine that Tanner is slinging heroin and I tell him that "I heard that he's selling H; and that concerns me." Im not calling him anything, im laying out for him what Ive heard. It establishes that we as coaches are aware that there are talksmaboutna possible issue and lets them kniw up front we arent naive. Kid then knows they are entering a situation where eyes are on them so if there ismsomething going on they may be hesitant Where the he!! Have you coached where you have to worry about kids selling heroin?? Most we deal with here is weed and pills. Anyway, I like this approach. Just be honest with the kid and tell him what you have heard. I’m of the opinion that I don’t want to make a judgment on hear say. I have worked with far to many sorry teachers that have problems with some of the best kids on the team to take anyone’s opinion of a kid without me really getting to know them. Sometimes the kids prove them right but at least I confronted it and found out for myself. Whats crazy is heroin was at a high income upper middle class school; we had no gangs, and a lot of money. Usually weed is the problem though- although pills are growing moreso.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 19, 2018 8:34:53 GMT -6
I aint calling a kid anything. I'm telling a kid about the rumors about him. If I heard it through the grapevine that Tanner is slinging heroin and I tell him that "I heard that he's selling H; and that concerns me." Im not calling him anything, im laying out for him what Ive heard. It establishes that we as coaches are aware that there are talksmaboutna possible issue and lets them kniw up front we arent naive. Kid then knows they are entering a situation where eyes are on them so if there ismsomething going on they may be hesitant Where the he!! Have you coached where you have to worry about kids selling heroin?? Most we deal with here is weed and pills. Anyway, I like this approach. Just be honest with the kid and tell him what you have heard. I’m of the opinion that I don’t want to make a judgment on hear say. I have worked with far to many sorry teachers that have problems with some of the best kids on the team to take anyone’s opinion of a kid without me really getting to know them. Sometimes the kids prove them right but at least I confronted it and found out for myself. Coach, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are kids in your school who possess and sell opiates. More than likely heroin. The problem is everywhere and it is not limited.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 19, 2018 8:36:05 GMT -6
Where the he!! Have you coached where you have to worry about kids selling heroin?? Most we deal with here is weed and pills. Anyway, I like this approach. Just be honest with the kid and tell him what you have heard. I’m of the opinion that I don’t want to make a judgment on hear say. I have worked with far to many sorry teachers that have problems with some of the best kids on the team to take anyone’s opinion of a kid without me really getting to know them. Sometimes the kids prove them right but at least I confronted it and found out for myself. Whats crazy is heroin was at a high income upper middle class school; we had no gangs, and a lot of money. Usually weed is the problem though- although pills are growing moreso. Didn’t see this post before I responded, but it’s spot on.
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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 19, 2018 8:59:27 GMT -6
Do you guys have a written/signed code of conduct? One of the most underrated forms of discipline, in my mind, is taking away practice reps. If you don't take reps in practice, we can't play you. If you weaseled out of ____, you can't take practice reps. When I was an HC, the attendance policy was "there's no such thing as an excused absence" since you can't go do makeup work at home. Means any absence can impact your playing time, because it will be up to us to determine your game readiness, and doesn't lock us into some silly unintended consequence of having a firm policy. They just have to stand and watch. We did this with scout team reps, drill reps, etc. It also doesn't get parents riled up like suspending them from all or part of a game does, but it does explain why they aren't playing. I like this a lot. Did you ever have problems though at positions where there was no real competition? How did you handle those situations? We actually implemented this at a school with about 0 winning tradition, about 35 kids on the varsity, no JV, 40 kids on what we called JVC (freshman & sophomores combined, minus the ones we brought up). So we were pretty thin, and there wasn't much depth. It's interesting, the impact there is even greater because (I think) we did a pretty good job of creating a team-first culture. So the message was, if you got yourself pulled from drills, you're hurting the team. Coach isn't hurting the team by taking you out of drills, your f---ery was hurting the team by getting you pulled from drills. We definitely stuck to our guns, especially early on. So, if a starter messed up, we play the next kid, and it was usually a substantial drop off. No one blamed that kid when something went wrong, they blamed the kid who wasn't playing because of their own decisions. It also emphasized the importance of practice. Kids pick up on that quick. It's a little change that I thought made us a much better *team*. Key point on this: We never antagonized the kid. We would speak to them calmly, not in anger. We told them why they got pulled, and what needs to be different next time, as well as what the next consequence was. This would happen on our time, not theirs, so we wouldn't stop practice. If it kept happening, we made sure to let the parent know.
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Post by stilltryin on Jan 19, 2018 9:00:56 GMT -6
Belichick and Franklin said it best, we work too many hours to be around someone who makes us miserable. Couple of thoughts... 1. Cover yourself. What you are thinking is not legal in most public schools. Most have rules on tryouts, not all enforce them 2. No way you can help the kid? I would most likely give him a chance, with a very short imaginary leash that he would not know about. If he wasnt falling in line, he would be eliminated quickly. Obviously, as shown by the response, this topic struck a chord with a lot of guys. We may not always realize it, but Belichick and Franklin are in a different business than those of us coaching high school football. As blb and conrad 81 point out, the problem kid almost always needs us, and football, more than we need him. That doesn't mean it's always going to work out, and it often doesn't. But if we're not prepared to give it our best shot, maybe it's time to think about why we're doing this.
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Post by Coach Vice on Jan 19, 2018 9:08:44 GMT -6
Stick to your values, give everyone a chance, and let your system weed out the bad ones. If the kid changes his ways because of your program than you're the hero. If he screws up, remove him. Just make sure you have the rules in writing.
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Post by gators41 on Jan 19, 2018 11:39:56 GMT -6
Belichick and Franklin said it best, we work too many hours to be around someone who makes us miserable. Couple of thoughts... 1. Cover yourself. What you are thinking is not legal in most public schools. Most have rules on tryouts, not all enforce them 2. No way you can help the kid? I would most likely give him a chance, with a very short imaginary leash that he would not know about. If he wasnt falling in line, he would be eliminated quickly. Obviously, as shown by the response, this topic struck a chord with a lot of guys. We may not always realize it, but Belichick and Franklin are in a different business than those of us coaching high school football. As blb and conrad 81 point out, the problem kid almost always needs us, and football, more than we need him. That doesn't mean it's always going to work out, and it often doesn't. But if we're not prepared to give it our best shot, maybe it's time to think about why we're doing this. You make solid points. If you read the end of my post you see where I say I would give the kid a chance. I think you have to. I disagree strongly with your logic. Although we provide a lot of the benefits of a charity/social worker/mentor/father this is our job. I have to have money to live. Now I went into this knowing I would never be rich. I get more out of helping a young man then diamonds and jewels could ever provide. As I get older, I am feeling very strongly on this. I have no more patience for disrespectful condescending attitude from a player toward a coach. Incorrigible players basically. We work too hard for too little money and too much time away from our families to also have to put up with a terrible attitude. That stuff is contagious, they are always the problems, generally their parents are the first to complain, they will be the people cussing you at the end of the season when you lose in the playoffs, on and on. Its worth if for one to try, and see if it takes. But They will have a very short leash, period.
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Post by gators41 on Jan 19, 2018 11:42:40 GMT -6
Not a head coach, just my thought: I'd rather lose with a high character kid, than win with a terd... To me sounds like the kid has more negatives in his favor than positives. Don't invite cancers into the room. I am not disagreeing with you, but when its your job on the line, and your livelihood, and how you pay your bills and feed your kids you might feel different as a HC. Not for sure, but your morals will be tested. So easy for assistants to throw darts and HS football has gotten so bad that you can and will get fired for losing at almost all jobs.
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Post by 19delta on Jan 19, 2018 13:25:22 GMT -6
I’d be careful with that approach. You’re going to call a kid something he hasn’t been proven to be. Admin, school board etc can put a foot in your a for that one. Not worth having to deal with all that noise for a kid who’s probably not going to make it anyway. I aint calling a kid anything. I'm telling a kid about the rumors about him. If I heard it through the grapevine that Tanner is slinging heroin and I tell him that "I heard that he's selling H; and that concerns me." Im not calling him anything, im laying out for him what Ive heard. It establishes that we as coaches are aware that there are talksmaboutna possible issue and lets them kniw up front we arent naive. Kid then knows they are entering a situation where eyes are on them so if there ismsomething going on they may be hesitant Bad, bad idea. I would definitely consult your AD and principal before saying anything even remotely close to this. You are setting yourself up for a slew of trouble that just isn't worth it.
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Post by carookie on Jan 19, 2018 14:15:53 GMT -6
I aint calling a kid anything. I'm telling a kid about the rumors about him. If I heard it through the grapevine that Tanner is slinging heroin and I tell him that "I heard that he's selling H; and that concerns me." Im not calling him anything, im laying out for him what Ive heard. It establishes that we as coaches are aware that there are talksmaboutna possible issue and lets them kniw up front we arent naive. Kid then knows they are entering a situation where eyes are on them so if there ismsomething going on they may be hesitant Bad, bad idea. I would definitely consult your AD and principal before saying anything even remotely close to this. You are setting yourself up for a slew of trouble that just isn't worth it. Not doubting you, but would you mind explaining why. Have done this a couple times and it worked out fine. Im simply telling a kid what i have heard, not making any assumptions
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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 19, 2018 14:29:46 GMT -6
Bad, bad idea. I would definitely consult your AD and principal before saying anything even remotely close to this. You are setting yourself up for a slew of trouble that just isn't worth it. Not doubting you, but would you mind explaining why. Have done this a couple times and it worked out fine. Im simply telling a kid what i have heard, not making any assumptions If a coach told my kid there were rumors that they were selling drugs, and didn't talk to me about it, I'd be livid. 1) it can sound like an accusation really quickly, no matter how well it's phrased 2) if it's credible, I better get contacted about it before you talk to my kid
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Post by 19delta on Jan 19, 2018 15:40:12 GMT -6
Not doubting you, but would you mind explaining why. Have done this a couple times and it worked out fine. Im simply telling a kid what i have heard, not making any assumptions If a coach told my kid there were rumors that they were selling drugs, and didn't talk to me about it, I'd be livid. 1) it can sound like an accusation really quickly, no matter how well it's phrased 2) if it's credible, I better get contacted about it before you talk to my kid Yep.
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Post by coachphillip on Jan 19, 2018 19:36:12 GMT -6
Can’t help the ones who aren’t there. Set the standard and expectations. If he meets them all, he plays just like anybody else would, albeit on a much tighter leash. I’ve coached and made a difference in the lives of plenty of troubled kids. I’ve also coached and didn’t make any significant difference at all in the lives of troubled kids. Rather try and fail than not try at all. If he really has the kind of character you think he has, then he shouldn’t be able to hack it. As for the putting him on the field and mentally and physically abusing him comment someone made up above ... WTH.
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Post by utchuckd on Jan 20, 2018 7:29:40 GMT -6
If someone is a drug dealer (allegedly, suspected, rumored to be) do we have a responsibility to keep that out of our locker rooms and away from our players? Does is HAVE to be proven before you don't let him around? I wouldn't want a junior/senior sneaky ass drug dealer around my sophomore and freshmen players. There's a reason they call them 'pushers'.
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Post by blb on Jan 20, 2018 7:40:21 GMT -6
Those of you who don't want to let kids come out for Football because of rumors or hearsay will just have to go to your administrators and say, "I'm cutting Johnny Jones before Cals because I HEAR he's a drug dealer."
See what kind of response you get.
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Post by conrad81 on Jan 20, 2018 7:45:12 GMT -6
Can’t help the ones who aren’t there. Set the standard and expectations. If he meets them all, he plays just like anybody else would, albeit on a much tighter leash. I’ve coached and made a difference in the lives of plenty of troubled kids. I’ve also coached and didn’t make any significant difference at all in the lives of troubled kids. Rather try and fail than not try at all. If he really has the kind of character you think he has, then he shouldn’t be able to hack it. As for the putting him on the field and mentally and physically abusing him comment someone made up above ... WTH. Perfectly said... thank you
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Post by s73 on Jan 20, 2018 9:53:35 GMT -6
....tell a kid you didn't want him to come out for football because you don't like him and his character? I've got a kid who is sneaky and I honestly don't trust him and don't want him around our team. It's widely believed that he is involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity although he's never been caught. Administration and even law enforcement are onto him. He's one of those smart kids who thinks he's invincible, above authority and rules, and that he'll never get caught. The "problem" is he hasn't been caught doing anything. Anybody have a similar issue? How did you deal with it? In my younger days I would have done that. As I've aged some, I have developed the belief that more often than not these guys will eventually cut themselves. If he is doing what he's doing, I would have no problem telling him what you're hearing & have a frank conversation about the possible consequences. FOR ME, the biggest thing is I want them to know that I know. I think the more genuine the coach/player relationship the better. Start w/ honesty & see what happens.
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Post by s73 on Jan 20, 2018 10:26:41 GMT -6
Kid like that, telling him you don't want him is probably a guarantee to get him to come out for the team. Ignore the kid. THAT'S what he won't like... Funny you should say that. Had 2 kids quit last year. One cited family issues, the other playing time. Both kids are lazy, have invested little, get into trouble & generally are not likable, know better than you, etc. In fact, the one kid who quit b/c of PT told me he was quitting to "workout & get huge so he can start next season". Here's the deal, 10 years ago I go off on him about quitting on his teammates & blah, blah, commitment & integrity & blah, blah, never take you back, blah blah. But instead, I said "bad idea , good luck w/ that" and left it. Here's the reality, kids a drug user, dad who doesn't live at home, always short on facts was emailing weekly about playing time (not aware kid didn't show to summer camp, etc) THE REALITY is I was glad he was leaving. Wasn't good for the team. The other REALITY is, I won't ban him from returning, I have enough FAITH in what we are doing that he can't quit & compete with our programming of the other kids. In the meantime, since he quit "to prep" he has missed 5 weeks of off season workouts & I don't say a word. I'm certainly not going to fight w/ him about cutting his own throat.
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Post by fkaboneyard on Jan 22, 2018 12:36:03 GMT -6
In my experience these kids have parents that are the biggest handful. Blackballing the kid before he comes out is a sure way to cause yourself a headache. If he can do the work and not be a problem he's in my program. If he's a problem I'm on him like stink on a monkey.
In all the years I've coached I think there is only a couple where I loved every kid on the team, seems there is always at least one that is a steaming pile that I wish would go play another sport.
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
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Post by CoachSP on Jan 25, 2018 13:36:08 GMT -6
You don't have to give a reason for cutting a kid. When it's not even Football season?
And if you just tell a kid "I don't like you and your character" (as funkfriss funkfriss posted) - you damn sure will have to give a reason when his parents confront your administrators.
Don't know where you work coachfrigo but that wouldn't fly anywhere I've been.
Nor would I do it anyway.
funkfriss admitted "he hasn't been caught doing anything."
Even in the Age of Trump you'd better have evidence-two legs to stand on before you deny someone their rights. "I believe you're involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity" is not a defense.
If he really is as funkfriss says - let him hang himself, not you. If he is, eventually he'll give coach real reason(s) to fire him.
I don't know how many "rights" he has. Schools can search kids based on "reasonable suspicion" rather than "probable cause"...I'm sure you can deny his "right" to try out if he has been suspected of dealing drugs. Just my two cents.
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Post by veerman on Jan 25, 2018 13:55:21 GMT -6
Not a head coach, just my thought: I'd rather lose with a high character kid, than win with a terd... I agree with your statement. BUT also know from experience is that if you loose too many (even with class and high characteristic kids) your going to be fired and looking for a job. That is were administration comes into play. If they see the big picture you'll be ok.
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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 25, 2018 14:45:12 GMT -6
When it's not even Football season?
And if you just tell a kid "I don't like you and your character" (as funkfriss funkfriss funkfriss posted) - you damn sure will have to give a reason when his parents confront your administrators.
Don't know where you work coachfrigo but that wouldn't fly anywhere I've been.
Nor would I do it anyway.
funkfriss admitted "he hasn't been caught doing anything."
Even in the Age of Trump you'd better have evidence-two legs to stand on before you deny someone their rights. "I believe you're involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity" is not a defense.
If he really is as funkfriss says - let him hang himself, not you. If he is, eventually he'll give coach real reason(s) to fire him.
I don't know how many "rights" he has. Schools can search kids based on "reasonable suspicion" rather than "probable cause"...I'm sure you can deny his "right" to try out if he has been suspected of dealing drugs. Just my two cents. This is completely untrue and would lead to a lawsuit that the parents would win if they wanted to push it. And then you'd get fired. Also, your analogy doesn't work. Being searched is not intended to be the punishment, its supposed to be the check on the allegations. Kicking a kid off a team is a punishment, and you'd have to have proof they did the thing they're accused of in order to enforce that punishment.
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Post by coachdmyers on Jan 25, 2018 14:46:34 GMT -6
If someone is a drug dealer (allegedly, suspected, rumored to be) do we have a responsibility to keep that out of our locker rooms and away from our players? Does is HAVE to be proven before you don't let him around? I wouldn't want a junior/senior sneaky ass drug dealer around my sophomore and freshmen players. There's a reason they call them 'pushers'. Yes, it HAS to be proven. At least in public schools it does.
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Post by blb on Jan 25, 2018 14:58:22 GMT -6
When it's not even Football season?
And if you just tell a kid "I don't like you and your character" (as funkfriss funkfriss funkfriss funkfriss funkfriss posted) - you damn sure will have to give a reason when his parents confront your administrators.
Don't know where you work coachfrigo but that wouldn't fly anywhere I've been.
Nor would I do it anyway.
funkfriss admitted "he hasn't been caught doing anything."
Even in the Age of Trump you'd better have evidence-two legs to stand on before you deny someone their rights. "I believe you're involved in drug dealing and other illegal activity" is not a defense.
If he really is as funkfriss says - let him hang himself, not you. If he is, eventually he'll give coach real reason(s) to fire him.
I don't know how many "rights" he has. Schools can search kids based on "reasonable suspicion" rather than "probable cause"...I'm sure you can deny his "right" to try out if he has been suspected of dealing drugs.
Have you ever tried to deny a student his-her right to try out for a school team based on hearsay?
Have you denied students a chance to try out for your sport for other arbitrary reasons?
If your up-coming Junior QB for example accused your returning Senior starter of dealing drugs - do you kick the latter off your team without proof-evidence?
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212
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Post by CoachSP on Jan 26, 2018 7:46:23 GMT -6
I don't know how many "rights" he has. Schools can search kids based on "reasonable suspicion" rather than "probable cause"...I'm sure you can deny his "right" to try out if he has been suspected of dealing drugs.
Have you ever tried to deny a student his-her right to try out for a school team based on hearsay?
Have you denied students a chance to try out for your sport for other arbitrary reasons?
If your up-coming Junior QB for example accused your returning Senior starter of dealing drugs - do you kick the latter off your team without proof-evidence?
We don't have enough details. In my school, when administration has had run ins with kids for drug related issues, then there is a good chance we have the backing because of a kid's track record. I'm not listening to hearsay from kids about kids. That's foolish. But if administration has already had an issue with those "types", then chances are, there are other infractions (grades, referrals, etc.) that will allow you to deny his tryout. If there is a kid like this, then I bet he has gotten in trouble for other things.
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 7:59:13 GMT -6
None of the schools I worked at would have allowed us to keep a kid from coming out for football unless he was academically ineligible or suspended for violating training rules.
Being "suspected" of something or having gotten referrals in the past wouldn't do it.
In fact administrators wanted MORE of the "problem children" to participate in the hope it would help them straighten out and have fewer issues during the school day.
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212
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Post by CoachSP on Jan 26, 2018 9:24:19 GMT -6
None of the schools I worked at would have allowed us to keep a kid from coming out for football unless he was academically ineligible or suspended for violating training rules. Being "suspected" of something or having gotten referrals in the past wouldn't do it. In fact administrators wanted MORE of the "problem children" to participate in the hope it would help them straighten out and have fewer issues during the school day. Agree to disagree. I'm not a HC, but I would not want to be at a school where too many referrals or poor grades were not cause for forbidding a tryout.
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Post by blb on Jan 26, 2018 9:37:20 GMT -6
None of the schools I worked at would have allowed us to keep a kid from coming out for football unless he was academically ineligible or suspended for violating training rules. Being "suspected" of something or having gotten referrals in the past wouldn't do it. In fact administrators wanted MORE of the "problem children" to participate in the hope it would help them straighten out and have fewer issues during the school day. Agree to disagree. I'm not a HC, but I would not want to be at a school where too many referrals or poor grades were not cause for forbidding a tryout.
Poor grades = possibly academically ineligible. If not he can come out.
How many referrals are "too many"? How far back? Who decides?
Every school I coached at an Athletic Code of Conduct or similar including eligibility and training rules that applied to all sports.
No sport could come up with their own.
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Post by veerman on Jan 26, 2018 10:02:12 GMT -6
Do you have a try out? Do you cut? If not allow him to be on the team, THEN, IF he messes up to the extent to where you decide to remove him from the team then you are justified. If you don't allow him on the team, I think your setting yourself up for future problems.
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Post by newt21 on Jan 26, 2018 10:43:32 GMT -6
I've told kids not to come out before strictly because of how they act in class. If you're an athlete and you can't act right in PE class for your future coach, then that's a pretty big warning sign. I've also cut a kid based on his behavior in my class (I honestly told him it was between him and another kid who were even across the board, except for their behavior...and you know what, he fixed it and was a model student after that). If they come out and we don't have to cut, then I'll definitely give them a chance, but I'm not going to give them a spot on the team when it can go to someone who busts their tail and is respectful on top of it.
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