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Post by nltdiego on Jun 16, 2016 22:16:35 GMT -6
Do you guys let kids miss all summer and play in fall? I know broad question but just curious what different program philosophies and rules are.
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Post by dblwngr on Jun 16, 2016 23:29:15 GMT -6
Unfortunately thats just the way it goes sometimes. We are heading to team camp short handed because of family reunions, FBLA Nationals, and everything else you could think of.
Drives me bananas! But really, all you can do is coach the kids you have like there the only ones you got! Like we tell our kids, only worry about the things we know we can control.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 16, 2016 23:35:37 GMT -6
Would you let kid come out in fall? How can you stress committment and accountability with that type of behavior?
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Post by coachtua on Jun 17, 2016 2:14:35 GMT -6
At my last stop we had boys and parents sign a contract. If you did not successfully complete spring or summer it was a 1 game non dress per offense in the fall. If you missed/didn't complete both, it was a 3 game no dress. If you didn't do spring fundraiser you didn't play in spring game which equals an incomplete spring. The only acceptable excuse for missing spring was spring sports playoffs. I believe the summer was you couldn't miss more than 3 days for the 6 week summer program.
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Post by coachklee on Jun 17, 2016 3:40:36 GMT -6
Depends on a lot of things. Rarely does a kid who misses all summer long have the ability to contribute for a variety of reasons many of which aren't related to speed or strength. They typically will continue to lack discipline in attendance during the mandatory practices, during drills when present & just being a good teammate waiting to climb the depth chart because they will have missed some of our camp days or film sessions.
However, if a kid is one of the best 11 on either side, is a quick learner with decent football IQ & a reliable teammate once August 8th comes 51 days from now then he'll have a chance. It's HS & there are a few kids who are athletic enough to miss weights & conditioning all summer...especially at programs trying to turn around...once you turn a corner you can probably afford to have an official policy, but IMO you need a few of those kids to fill gaps until then.
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Post by **** on Jun 17, 2016 3:54:05 GMT -6
No. If you don't come during the summer or lift year round then you do not play football for us. 1. If you're not there you don't know whats going on. 2. If you're not lifting year round then we look at it as a safety issue of putting you on the field. I've never had a player that was such a freak athlete he could skip all summer then show up in the fall and play. Like coachklee said, if you're at a struggling program and he will be one of your best 11 then you're probably gonna have to play him. If you can have some success and go from losing seasons to a 6-4 ish type season then you can start preaching about commitment. Success breeds success.
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Post by coachguy83 on Jun 17, 2016 4:03:30 GMT -6
This is a tough question to answer without knowing the specific situation with both the player and the program. I think if they are a freshman or sophamore you let them come out no matter what and try to get them to buy into the program going forward. Upper classman I think it really depends on how badly you need bodies and the reason they missed all summer. Some kids have to spend summers with other parents, which I think you have to ignore. Now if a kid is just sitting by the pool or playing video games all summer then I think you have a right to question their commitment and whether or not they have a place in the program.
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Post by CS on Jun 17, 2016 4:27:29 GMT -6
All workouts are mandatory in the summer. We take role and you make up the days you missed and you don't play until you do. Had a kid who was a great athlete, straight A students and very polite and hard working that missed all summer because his parents are divorced and he stays with his dad in the summer.
Are you guys that say you wouldn't allow him to play gonna kick a kid off the team in that situation??? IMO let them come out, make them make up anything they missed and if they don't want to do that then they either just practice all year without playing or they will quit.
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Post by jlenwood on Jun 17, 2016 4:54:39 GMT -6
We are having this issue right now. Our community and school system as a whole are really starting to slide downhill in a hurry into below average at everything. There is no communication between sports as far as scheduling basketball summer stuff, baseball stuff and the football program trying to have a strength program.
Being a small school, we all share athletes. The issue is with our size, kids know they can miss most of the off season stuff and more than likely will still play. We just have zero commitment and drive for excellence from the student body that they are OK with being weak and getting their butts handed to them every Friday.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 17, 2016 6:12:59 GMT -6
All workouts are mandatory in the summer. We take role and you make up the days you missed and you don't play until you do. Had a kid who was a great athlete, straight A students and very polite and hard working that missed all summer because his parents are divorced and he stays with his dad in the summer. Are you guys that say you wouldn't allow him to play gonna kick a kid off the team in that situation??? IMO let them come out, make them make up anything they missed and if they don't want to do that then they either just practice all year without playing or they will quit. Maybe it's different in your states but NOTHING can be mandatory until the first official day of practice per our state association. Highly recommend and encouraged but mandatory, no. So unless you want to get yourself jammed up I would guess you have to let the kid on the team. How long they last is another question, some places cut some don't and it doesn't mean they will actually contribute or play any significant time. And I am sure making them make up what they missed, for stuff you can't even make mandatory wouldn't go over real well either.
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Post by airraider on Jun 17, 2016 7:15:01 GMT -6
We are a very small team. We have 29 on the roster, and have had all but 2 show up at least once this summer. We regularly have around 12-15 on the 3 days we workout.
I could make it mandatory, but I would only be cutting my throat. I decided to reward those who make a certain percent and just roll with it.
I can't only let those 15 play... we would go 0-10 without a doubt.
Its a delicate balance of trying to salvage the team vs salvage the program. Obviously the program is more important... but going 0-10 will be just as damaging with the type of kids I have.
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Post by lochness on Jun 17, 2016 7:59:55 GMT -6
This is where I have changed the most as a coach. I don't go all berserk on this stuff any more. We encourage it, we market it, and we work like heck to improve the kids and get them having fun in the off season...but we don't lose our minds when someone doesn't show.
Nothing can be "mandatory" for us until August first day of official practice. So, it's not. And I don't enforce some secret code about "well, you can be on the team, but you won't play if you aren't around all summer" because my job is to field the best team I can week in and week out. Period...end of discussion. That's my job.
So, if some kid rolls in on the first day of official practice in August, is a great teammate, is coachable, and can help us, I'm going to play him in September. Why the hell else wouldn't I? It's High School football. These kids aren't under contract. Some go away for the summer. Some of my best players are doing summer baseball or lacrosse all summer, traveling around the country. Some have to work full-time to support a single parent family. Why would I want to stop them from doing that if they can still help our team during the season? Just to serve my ego about how important our summer activities are?
Summer activities are opportunities for kids to get better and to gel as a team. As it happens, most guys who work out all summer end up starting, not because we favor them over those who don't, but because they've got a distinct advantage. We work with whoever shows up, and we're happy we're making those kids better. If a dude can show up first day of practice and beat someone out after taking all summer off...well $hit more power to him I guess.
We have good attendance. Not great. Not everyone. Good. I want them to get better and build respect with each other, but I also want them to continue to have lives and be kids...and I want them to be fresh and hungry all season, not feeling like they've been playing football for 8 months.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 17, 2016 8:26:07 GMT -6
This family is making kid take a SAT class all summer 8-4. I want to send message but kids fault. Wonder if you educate parents ever.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 8:55:27 GMT -6
Do you guys let kids miss all summer and play in fall? I know broad question but just curious what different program philosophies and rules are. In my state, you can't use off season attendance as a prerequisite to being on the team.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 17, 2016 8:58:36 GMT -6
True but you can deny him special treatment over the summer.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 8:59:21 GMT -6
All workouts are mandatory in the summer. We take role and you make up the days you missed and you don't play until you do. Had a kid who was a great athlete, straight A students and very polite and hard working that missed all summer because his parents are divorced and he stays with his dad in the summer. Are you guys that say you wouldn't allow him to play gonna kick a kid off the team in that situation??? IMO let them come out, make them make up anything they missed and if they don't want to do that then they either just practice all year without playing or they will quit. So what did you do with that kid? Did he get to play?
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Post by blb on Jun 17, 2016 9:05:57 GMT -6
True but you can deny him special treatment over the summer.
Who is "him"?
What do you mean by "special treatment"?
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 17, 2016 9:10:38 GMT -6
A player. Missing all summer while your staff and players make sacrifices to be there all summer is special treatment.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 9:11:30 GMT -6
This is where I have changed the most as a coach. I don't go all berserk on this stuff any more. We encourage it, we market it, and we work like heck to improve the kids and get them having fun in the off season...but we don't lose our minds when someone doesn't show. Nothing can be "mandatory" for us until August first day of official practice. So, it's not. And I don't enforce some secret code about "well, you can be on the team, but you won't play if you aren't around all summer" because my job is to field the best team I can week in and week out. Period...end of discussion. That's my job. So, if some kid rolls in on the first day of official practice in August, is a great teammate, is coachable, and can help us, I'm going to play him in September. Why the hell else wouldn't I? It's High School football. These kids aren't under contract. Some go away for the summer. Some of my best players are doing summer baseball or lacrosse all summer, traveling around the country. Some have to work full-time to support a single parent family. Why would I want to stop them from doing that if they can still help our team during the season? Just to serve my ego about how important our summer activities are? Summer activities are opportunities for kids to get better and to gel as a team. As it happens, most guys who work out all summer end up starting, not because we favor them over those who don't, but because they've got a distinct advantage. We work with whoever shows up, and we're happy we're making those kids better. If a dude can show up first day of practice and beat someone out after taking all summer off...well $hit more power to him I guess. We have good attendance. Not great. Not everyone. Good. I want them to get better and build respect with each other, but I also want them to continue to have lives and be kids...and I want them to be fresh and hungry all season, not feeling like they've been playing football for 8 months. By the first game, you need the kids who are the best player at their position and can be trusted to execute their assignments. That's really all that matters. The purpose of summer workouts is to improve your kids physically and maybe mentally. Some kids are going to need that a lot more than others. Summer workouts should NOT be, on the other hand, some kind of loyalty test.
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Post by fcboiler87 on Jun 17, 2016 9:13:07 GMT -6
This is a tough question I ask myself every day right now. We have been at less than 50% attendance so far this summer. Under 25 kids on average at a place where we should have 50+ on the team. Apathy is high and work ethic and drive are low. A couple older kids talk about not showing up until fall. Can they win a spot? It's possible but not likely. Plus what kind of message do you send to young kids that have had opportunities all summer? It's a tough hill to climb when your opponents of similar size are average 50+ kids per day at their sessions. I don't think we can walk out there and be better than those guys busting their tails when we're not. We recognize and reward those that are there. I don't know what else we can do. Those guys that show up in the fall? They will have to start low on the chart and work their way up. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But like I said I don't know if it's the right answer or not. No good way to know what's right.
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Post by blb on Jun 17, 2016 9:14:23 GMT -6
A player. Missing all summer while your staff and players make sacrifices to be there all summer is special treatment.
Our state is like 19delta's. We cannot require anything in the Off Season.
Therefore it's kids' choice to take advantage of opportunities to improve, not a "sacrifice."
And choosing not to do something that isn't mandatory isn't "special treatment."
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 9:18:14 GMT -6
A player. Missing all summer while your staff and players make sacrifices to be there all summer is special treatment. Is this the kid taking the SAT class? Assuming that he doesn't do anything during the summer with the team, when practice starts in August, how will he objectively compare to the other players at his position who lifted all summer? Or, looking at it another way, is this kid good enough to play for you this fall even if he doesn't do anything this summer?
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Post by rsmith627 on Jun 17, 2016 9:25:54 GMT -6
I haven't read all of the posts here, but this is tough if you're in a struggling program. You can't make anything in the summer mandatory, so you're always going to have kids missing.
I'm in a good program now. We had 45/55 of our JV kids show up last Friday for an optional workout at 5:15 am. 100% of our varsity kids were there. This morning I had 25 JV kids show up for throwing. The kids at this school understand what it takes to be successful and they do it. 20/25 were staying another hour or so after I left because nobody was on the field and they wanted to rep what we put in today.
I've been at the polar opposite as well where we would have 5-10 kids show up to workout on a good day. At those schools we set goals. We need you guys to attend x amount of workouts. Guys who showed up the most (they had to put in work for it to count) would pick their gear and jersey numbers first, guys with perfect attendance or 95% or whatever you want it to be got a t-shirt etc.
If you aren't in a culture where kids just show up and go to work, you need to create it, but you're going to have to incentivize it first.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 9:26:05 GMT -6
This is a tough question I ask myself every day right now. We have been at less than 50% attendance so far this summer. Under 25 kids on average at a place where we should have 50+ on the team. Apathy is high and work ethic and drive are low. A couple older kids talk about not showing up until fall. Can they win a spot? It's possible but not likely. Plus what kind of message do you send to young kids that have had opportunities all summer? It's a tough hill to climb when your opponents of similar size are average 50+ kids per day at their sessions. I don't think we can walk out there and be better than those guys busting their tails when we're not. We recognize and reward those that are there. I don't know what else we can do. Those guys that show up in the fall? They will have to start low on the chart and work their way up. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But like I said I don't know if it's the right answer or not. No good way to know what's right. I don't think that there is anything wrong with rewarding the kids who participate in the summer program. Give those kids "Ironman" t-shirts. Put a leader board up in the weight room and only kids who participate in the summer program are eligible to have their names and weights up there. Do cookouts and stuff like that. But, once the season starts, I think the best player at each position has to start, regardless of what they did or didn't do during the summer.
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Post by fcboiler87 on Jun 17, 2016 9:40:56 GMT -6
This is a tough question I ask myself every day right now. We have been at less than 50% attendance so far this summer. Under 25 kids on average at a place where we should have 50+ on the team. Apathy is high and work ethic and drive are low. A couple older kids talk about not showing up until fall. Can they win a spot? It's possible but not likely. Plus what kind of message do you send to young kids that have had opportunities all summer? It's a tough hill to climb when your opponents of similar size are average 50+ kids per day at their sessions. I don't think we can walk out there and be better than those guys busting their tails when we're not. We recognize and reward those that are there. I don't know what else we can do. Those guys that show up in the fall? They will have to start low on the chart and work their way up. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But like I said I don't know if it's the right answer or not. No good way to know what's right. I don't think that there is anything wrong with rewarding the kids who participate in the summer program. Give those kids "Ironman" t-shirts. Put a leader board up in the weight room and only kids who participate in the summer program are eligible to have their names and weights up there. Do cookouts and stuff like that. But, once the season starts, I think the best player at each position has to start, regardless of what they did or didn't do during the summer. I get that but then I think you perpetuate and make it an acceptable part of your culture if a guy you know is a player leaves you in October and you don't see him again until August. I think that physical capabilities and mental aspects of the game that are lost over the course of that time will ultimately do some of these guys in. If you are trying to change and shape your culture there has to be some type of accountability for that. If those guys that are there all summer are your first teamers and then a few kids show up and they go down to JV, what incentive do they have to show up next summer and work if they can just show up in the fall and play? It's a rhetorical question but one that I think is fair. I get there are times and exceptions. Kids at football or wrestling camps. A week's family vacation. No big deal. Not there because you are admittedly lazy and don't feel like working? What kind of guy are you on Friday night? How are we supposed to depend on an attitude like that regardless of their talent? When things go bad, those guys fold. We had it happen last year in my first year. We had sporadic attendance last summer. The ones who never showed up all off season rode the pine. Why? Not really because they weren't there, but because they didn't cut it because they weren't there, both physically and from a knowing what we were doing process. Again I'm not saying I have a definitive answer. Those are just the things we ask ourselves and try to combat.
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Post by hsrose on Jun 17, 2016 9:52:19 GMT -6
Per our state/section rules summer workouts cannot be made mandatory. However, for the football team to be successful the players have to be in condition. If players miss the summer workouts they will miss both the cardio and weight training. We cannot make up the strength training, but we can make up the cardio work.
For the players to be conditioned, they have to run. Once we start fall practice in August the coaches will provide the opportunity for the player to get into shape each day after practice.
For us there are 36 summer sessions possible - 4 sessions per week, for 9 weeks. Each session is 2 hours, from 5-7PM. For the first two weeks we have been averaging 41 players per session, of a team of 60-65 so I’m pleased so far. And we have 7 7x7 competitions so we are busy during the summer. I have asked the players to make 2+ sessions per week to achieve the strength and cardio conditioning I feel is necessary for the team to be successful. Each player earns 2 points for each session they attend. The goal for each player is 38 points - 2 points for 18 sessions plus 1 session to be over the 50% mark, 19 total sessions x 2 points = 38 total points
At the testing combine on August 6th the point total for each player will be posted. For each point the player is less than the 38 required he will have to run a set of the sprint “2 Pointer”. The sprint has 2 points possible, 1 point for each set. Completing the full sprint earns the player 2 points. The 2 Pointers will be run after practice each day, coaches will monitor the players. The 'hammer' is that the players will not be permitted to compete in the scrimmages or games until the points are brought up to 38. And there are 13 practice sessions before our first scrimmage, 18 before our second so there is time for the players to get this done. The players must be conditioned and there will not be sufficient time during practice to fully condition them. We will still condition during practice, but those that missed summer workouts will be behind.
A "2 Pointer" is a sprint 100 yards, walk back, sprint 90 yards, walk back, and so on until they sprint the final 10 and walk back. That 550 yards of sprinting is worth 1 point. Rest 2 minutes, run it again. 2 sets = 2 points = 1 practice.
For us, by the time we get to the end of July, in a normal 2 hour (120 minute) workout, the players are sprinting about 1,200 yards (next week we will be at 700 yards/session, +100 yards per week), with some core and crawls and jumps and hops and such, in 40 minutes. 40 minutes of weights, and 40 minutes of football (we start with the football). So the 2 Pointer is basically going with the level of running the team is doing the last week of July.
I'm not going to turn kids away for missing summer sessions, lots and lots of reasons they will miss. I am looking at hammering a couple of players right now because they are going to basketball practice, which is right before football practice, and then going home. Not a work thing or family thing, that is a choice thing.
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Post by newhope on Jun 17, 2016 9:58:08 GMT -6
In many states, including ours, you can not make spring or summer mandatory. We set the expectations for what we want. If they don't show up, we have to let them come out when official practice starts in the fall. I, however, am in charge of playing time--and that's not mandatory, either. It's clear in our program, if you don't come, you will be behind everyone else and you will never catch up.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 10:22:41 GMT -6
I don't think that there is anything wrong with rewarding the kids who participate in the summer program. Give those kids "Ironman" t-shirts. Put a leader board up in the weight room and only kids who participate in the summer program are eligible to have their names and weights up there. Do cookouts and stuff like that. But, once the season starts, I think the best player at each position has to start, regardless of what they did or didn't do during the summer. I get that but then I think you perpetuate and make it an acceptable part of your culture if a guy you know is a player leaves you in October and you don't see him again until August. I think that physical capabilities and mental aspects of the game that are lost over the course of that time will ultimately do some of these guys in. If you are trying to change and shape your culture there has to be some type of accountability for that. If those guys that are there all summer are your first teamers and then a few kids show up and they go down to JV, what incentive do they have to show up next summer and work if they can just show up in the fall and play? It's a rhetorical question but one that I think is fair. I get there are times and exceptions. Kids at football or wrestling camps. A week's family vacation. No big deal. Not there because you are admittedly lazy and don't feel like working? What kind of guy are you on Friday night? How are we supposed to depend on an attitude like that regardless of their talent? When things go bad, those guys fold. We had it happen last year in my first year. We had sporadic attendance last summer. The ones who never showed up all off season rode the pine. Why? Not really because they weren't there, but because they didn't cut it because they weren't there, both physically and from a knowing what we were doing process. Again I'm not saying I have a definitive answer. Those are just the things we ask ourselves and try to combat. But you aren't keeping kids off the field as a punishment for missing in the summer. You aren't playing them because they aren't good enough (by whatever objective metric you are using). I don't think that is a problem. Ultimately, you are playing the best player at each position. Those kids who didn't participate aren't the best players.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 10:26:27 GMT -6
In many states, including ours, you can not make spring or summer mandatory. We set the expectations for what we want. If they don't show up, we have to let them come out when official practice starts in the fall. I, however, am in charge of playing time--and that's not mandatory, either. It's clear in our program, if you don't come, you will be behind everyone else and you will never catch up. I think another point is that if kids are showing up for practices in August and are still better athletes than the kids who trained all summer, maybe you need to reevaluate the summer program because it apparently isn't very good. For the most part, if you are doing the right things in the weight room, the kids who participate in the summer program should be your best players once practice starts.
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Post by blb on Jun 17, 2016 10:36:13 GMT -6
If you don't play the best players, regardless of their Off Season commitment, you will lose credibility with the kids because they will know, and for the most part they want to win.
You may face scrutiny from your superiors, too.
The fact is in HS some kids are just better athletes-more gifted physically than others regardless of how many times they've been in the weight room.
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