|
Post by coachbdud on Jun 17, 2016 10:39:23 GMT -6
this is one thing that separates the powerhouse teams from the struggling programs
we cant make it mandatory until August 8th (i coach in the same section as the OP so i know)
you dont have to give them any playing time, but you cant cut a kid or make it mandatory until august 8th
at the top schools this isnt a problem, there's a lot of competition, and the standard is just set that you will be there all summer... it is what is expected, and it is all the kids now
even at my school we struggle with this... i thought it would be better coming off of the best year in school history but it is still a struggle for us
another thing to consider is kid's personal situations
my starting center has a family obligation to help work in the summer
his dad does cement/landscaping... he has to help dad often in the summer, kid checks in with me, texts me, and sends me videos of him working (so i know he isnt BSing me) i dont love it but i have to deal with it... it is a cultural thing.
i have another kid who comes late every single day, my LT
why? he is a 4.0 genius and is taking classes at CAL every morning for the next 6 weeks. Hes a 5'10" OL he will go farther in life academically than on the football field so i support him
|
|
|
Post by mariner42 on Jun 17, 2016 10:44:08 GMT -6
this is one thing that separates the powerhouse teams from the struggling programs we cant make it mandatory until August 8th (i coach in the same section as the OP so i know) you dont have to give them any playing time, but you cant cut a kid or make it mandatory until august 8th at the top schools this isnt a problem, there's a lot of competition, and the standard is just set that you will be there all summer... it is what is expected, and it is all the kids now even at my school we struggle with this... i thought it would be better coming off of the best year in school history but it is still a struggle for us another thing to consider is kid's personal situations my starting center has a family obligation to help work in the summer his dad does cement/landscaping... he has to help dad often in the summer, kid checks in with me, texts me, and sends me videos of him working (so i know he isnt BSing me) i dont love it but i have to deal with it... it is a cultural thing. i have another kid who comes late every single day, my LT why? he is a 4.0 genius and is taking classes at CAL every morning for the next 6 weeks. Hes a 5'10" OL he will go farther in life academically than on the football field so i support him Community definitely matters. We are much more well off than most, so work conflicts are much less of an issue for us. At my previous school we had kids missing all summer in order to work the fields. They came back strong ish because that's hard work, but they definitely missed out.
|
|
|
Post by dblwngr on Jun 17, 2016 10:56:18 GMT -6
What it really boils down to is how big your school is. If you have enough kids where your back ups are still pretty good, then you can preach the commitment sermon and stand by it. If your're at a school like I was a few years back, 35 total kids for your Varsity and JV program both, then in my opinion you need to take the route like many said and reward who you have.
We were in a very rural area with kids that lived way out in the sticks, some close to 20 miles way, transportation was a constant issue. Not to mention the poverty level being close to 90%. When you have that kind of social economics to deal with, you're in a whole different world. You'll find yourself punishing kids for the faults and laziness of their deadbeat parents.
|
|
|
Post by wolverine55 on Jun 17, 2016 11:12:34 GMT -6
If you don't play the best players, regardless of their Off Season commitment, you will lose credibility with the kids because they will know, and for the most part they want to win. You may face scrutiny from your superiors, too. The fact is in HS some kids are just better athletes-more gifted physically than others regardless of how many times they've been in the weight room. I totally agree with this and for the most part, I think this is where we coaches don't give kids enough credit. Most kids fully understand this is part of the deal.
|
|
|
Post by holmesbend on Jun 17, 2016 11:35:22 GMT -6
If you don't play the best players, regardless of their Off Season commitment, you will lose credibility with the kids because they will know, and for the most part they want to win. You may face scrutiny from your superiors, too. The fact is in HS some kids are just better athletes-more gifted physically than others regardless of how many times they've been in the weight room.This. I've never gotten tore up over the summer. They need a break for themselves, a break away from us and vice versa. This arms race has borderline become a joke IMO. Keep the weight room open a few days a week--in the mornings and evenings--to allow for opportunities around schedules, assign coaches different days and/or week(s) and be done with it. June and July are for a he11 of a lot more things than football.
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Jun 17, 2016 11:41:01 GMT -6
I really wish our association would go from a dead week in the summer to a dead month.. preferably July..
When I was in school in the 90's they opened the weight room to allow kids to lift... but we didn't do 7 on 7's conditioning.. nothing mandatory until August 1st when we had "heat acclimation drills."
Kids need a chance to be kids during the summer, if only for a month...
|
|
|
Post by jg78 on Jun 17, 2016 11:48:10 GMT -6
If you don't play the best players, regardless of their Off Season commitment, you will lose credibility with the kids because they will know, and for the most part they want to win. You may face scrutiny from your superiors, too. The fact is in HS some kids are just better athletes-more gifted physically than others regardless of how many times they've been in the weight room. This is all very true. It's a tough situation sometimes. I had a good senior TB five years ago who missed all summer to go to some kind of summer school in another city for kids who were intending to go to medical school. (How do you hold that against him?) He returned a day or two before practice started and I let him start the first game. He was not in the kind of shape he should have been in and it was hot as hell our first game, which was actually played a week earlier than usual. He was out of commission by the end of the first quarter and we had to do without him. He clearly hadn't done a damn thing all summer. (He had a lot of talent, but he didn't really love football) We ended up losing a close game in the only toss up game we played in a 3-7 season. It was a hard, ugly loss to a rival and (although we improved a lot as the season went on - and definitely would have beaten that particular team in a midseason rematch) we never had a chance to really get off the mat and have a decent season because our schedule from that point on was brutal. When it was all said and done, I was nearly fired. If we had won that first game (which we would have if our TB had been with us all summer) I probably wouldn't have caught as much crap that year. I guess it's just one of those things you deal with when your livelihood is in the hands of teenagers with a variety of interests and varying abilities.
|
|
pain
Junior Member
Posts: 296
|
Post by pain on Jun 17, 2016 12:43:45 GMT -6
We don't make it mandatory, just highly encouraged. I tell the kids & parents to let me know before school is out when they will be gone for vacation. Nearly all of the upperclassmen have Summer jobs so they make arrangements with me as well. We go three days per week for three hours of lifting, plyos, agilities, and actual football work. Outside of the kids taking vacations or working, our kids just don't skip. I applaud them for busting their tails. It would be a lot easier sitting by the pool when it's 95 degrees and humid. And we only have 35 in our entire program (freshman-senior). The kids know it's too valuable to their teammates and friends to skip. They would catch hell from their buddies for skipping.
|
|
|
Post by fcboiler87 on Jun 17, 2016 13:41:07 GMT -6
Part of the problem definitely is the amount done in the summer. If everyone else we went against didn't do so much, I'd be much less concerned. But the teams we play have all already scrimmaged someone and/or participated in some type of 7 on 7. We have one coming this week and will do 2 7 on 7's in July but that's it and it's much less than most of our opponents. I'm not a proponent of doing the most or even as much as everyone else. I'd rather be less is more and we are doing that relative to our opponents. However, we still lack. We even had some issue with guys showing up for those competitions and that's supposed to be what the kids like and want to do.
So what ends up happening is that our opponents end up in good form as the season starts while we are still trying to get our wheels under us.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 17, 2016 13:47:03 GMT -6
All workouts are mandatory in the summer. We take role and you make up the days you missed and you don't play until you do. Had a kid who was a great athlete, straight A students and very polite and hard working that missed all summer because his parents are divorced and he stays with his dad in the summer. Are you guys that say you wouldn't allow him to play gonna kick a kid off the team in that situation??? IMO let them come out, make them make up anything they missed and if they don't want to do that then they either just practice all year without playing or they will quit. So what did you do with that kid? Did he get to play? Yeah. Made up every workout and started all year
|
|
mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
|
Post by mc140 on Jun 17, 2016 13:59:48 GMT -6
We actually held decals from kids who did not show up in summer. That worked pretty well. No one wants to be that varsity kid with the plain helmet on Friday nights.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Jun 17, 2016 14:28:25 GMT -6
Some of this all seems so counter productive sometimes. We complain about other sports and their schedules but then mandate non-mandatory work out and punish the kids for missing workouts. Complain about why kids don't want to play but then don't give them a decal like the rest of the team cause they missed 4 workouts. Can't play until you make up what you missed in non-mandatory work outs.
Some times kids just want to be part of something to be part of something. To be around their buddies. To have something to do so they don't have to go home to God only knows what. Look at these teams with 80-100 kids. Can't tell me the vast majority aren't just along for the ride.
We're a small school and I get it, I get pissed when kids miss our summer stuff. But I can pretty tell you who our starters will be at every position this up coming season regardless of what they do in the summer. This isn't the NFL where guys battle for their jobs every day.
|
|
|
Post by **** on Jun 17, 2016 14:59:13 GMT -6
We actually held decals from kids who did not show up in summer. That worked pretty well. No one wants to be that varsity kid with the plain helmet on Friday nights. I have seen this done and it worked well.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 17, 2016 15:01:30 GMT -6
Back to the original post - how many of us have had kids who did not come to ONE Summer activity - lifting, conditioning, 7-on-7, et al - and make a significant contribution during the competitive season?
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jun 17, 2016 15:40:26 GMT -6
If you want to play on Fridays, you better be there in the summer.
Our kids know that.
JV guys we are more lax, especially with freshmen. We will beat the halls on the first day to get more players out.
Football is fun, and I'm convinced more boys than not would agree with me, but you gotta give the chance to see its fun before you ask for buy in.
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Jun 17, 2016 15:42:31 GMT -6
Back to the original post - how many of us have had kids who did not come to ONE Summer activity - lifting, conditioning, 7-on-7, et al - and make a significant contribution during the competitive season? I cannot recall one example from the last ten years at my school
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 17, 2016 15:46:36 GMT -6
Back to the original post - how many of us have had kids who did not come to ONE Summer activity - lifting, conditioning, 7-on-7, et al - and make a significant contribution during the competitive season? I cannot recall one example from the last ten years at my school Neither can I at the varsity level.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jun 17, 2016 15:48:34 GMT -6
This family is making kid take a SAT class all summer 8-4. I want to send message but kids fault. Wonder if you educate parents ever. If you punish him good luck explaining that you're not anti-education. Hell, isn't having to take an SAT class for 8 hours a day all summer punishment enough?
|
|
|
Post by lochness on Jun 17, 2016 17:57:31 GMT -6
Back to the original post - how many of us have had kids who did not come to ONE Summer activity - lifting, conditioning, 7-on-7, et al - and make a significant contribution during the competitive season? 2 in the last 3 years, actually. One kid decided he wanted to play at equipment hand out as a senior (night before first practice). Started both ways for us and won our highest-honor coach's award. Other kid showed up after the first three days had already passed. Ended up working his ASS off in drills, winning the sportsmanship award (voted on by officials at each game) and started both ways. I ain't turning someone away who is a good dude and will help is just out of stubborn commitment to my own summer program. Ridiculous. Best guys with the best attitudes play. Summer helps you develop that. Miss it at your own risk. God bless if you can be a stud without it.
|
|
|
Post by coachwoodall on Jun 17, 2016 18:11:18 GMT -6
We make them straight JV
|
|
|
Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 17, 2016 18:19:10 GMT -6
We've had a few (not many) show up after summer and we certainly allow them on the team as long as they meet all the requirements after official practice begins. But we haven't had any of those guys become contributors for us they've all just been too far behind physically and mentally to catch up.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 19:14:11 GMT -6
Back to the original post - how many of us have had kids who did not come to ONE Summer activity - lifting, conditioning, 7-on-7, et al - and make a significant contribution during the competitive season? 2 in the last 3 years, actually. One kid decided he wanted to play at equipment hand out as a senior (night before first practice). Started both ways for us and won our highest-honor coach's award. Other kid showed up after the first three days had already passed. Ended up working his ASS off in drills, winning the sportsmanship award (voted on by officials at each game) and started both ways. I ain't turning someone away who is a good dude and will help is just out of stubborn commitment to my own summer program. Ridiculous. Best guys with the best attitudes play. Summer helps you develop that. Miss it at your own risk. God bless if you can be a stud without it. I agree. This gets back to my contention from a previous thread that sometimes, football coaches dramatically overvalue their "process" and can't see the forest for the trees as a result. This is really a simple issue. You want kids to participate in your summer program so they get stronger and faster. Kids who are stronger and faster are usually better football players than kids who are weaker and slower. So, if a kid you didn't see all summer shows up the first day of practice and is already stronger, faster, and better than all the other kids at his position, why wouldn't you be happy about that and look at it as an unexpected gift from the karma gods? As many of you guys have said, most of the kids who don't participate in the summer program aren't good enough to play over the kids who do. So, if that's the case, why make such a big deal about this issue? Why is it so important for these kids to "make up" the summer events that they missed? Isn't the fact that these kids aren't playing punishment enough? I don't know about you guys, but pretty much the last thing I want to do after a long, hot practice in August is sit up in the weightroom for 30 minutes after everyone else has gone home so I can prove a point to some teenager who isn't good enough to help us out anyway.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 17, 2016 19:36:37 GMT -6
I feel like it could go either way honestly. If you have the number to allow a more relaxed type of attitude about coming then yeah go right ahead. It's something that will change probably from town to town as a coach.
My only problem with any comment is that you would kick a kid off for not coming. A kid would really have to be a total bozo to get kicked off IMO and you can interpretate bozo however you would like.
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jun 17, 2016 19:42:16 GMT -6
I really wish our association would go from a dead week in the summer to a dead month.. preferably July.. When I was in school in the 90's they opened the weight room to allow kids to lift... but we didn't do 7 on 7's conditioning.. nothing mandatory until August 1st when we had "heat acclimation drills." Kids need a chance to be kids during the summer, if only for a month... I don't get this argument at all. It's 2 hrs (hopefully) at most. They have plenty of time to chase pu$$y the rest of the day. In all reality it's not asking a lot of a kid to come in for a couple of hours just a few times a week.
|
|
|
Post by lochness on Jun 17, 2016 19:52:14 GMT -6
I Don't want to be misinterpreted here either. Like everyone else, I'm hoping every kid in the program sees value In our summer stuff and works out. Nothing would make me happier. But- I have no control over that and the rules reinforce that fact. I tell kids to go, we talk about the benefits, we talk to the parents, we sell sell sell. But, I don't harass or look down upon those who chose not to. They're all on equal footing on the first day of practice in terms of earning a role in my eyes.
A lot of the difference in approach probably depends on what area of the country you coach in, and I understand that. But, it amazes me sometime that we are surprised that less and less kids want to play football. You can play baseball or lacrosse (actual games) all summer or go to the beach or bang your lady...and we get all self-important when some poor 16 year old doesn't necessarily want to spend 3 hours in a stale, smelly weight room 3 days per week during the glorious days of summer.
All things in perspective, men. They aren't ever going to care as much as we do...and the more you push that, the more you push them away.
|
|
mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
|
Post by mc140 on Jun 17, 2016 20:04:55 GMT -6
We don't ever turn kids away. Scout team players are always needed. There have been a couple of occasions were kids were not around all summer and were significant contributors, but for most part they are just on the team. We use incentives such as decals, shirts, overnight team camp, etc to get kids there. Also post rankings on things such as 40s, Pro Agility to make it competitive and give kids reasons to want to be there.
|
|
|
Post by bigmoot on Jun 17, 2016 20:14:47 GMT -6
Some of this all seems so counter productive sometimes. We complain about other sports and their schedules but then mandate non-mandatory work out and punish the kids for missing workouts. Complain about why kids don't want to play but then don't give them a decal like the rest of the team cause they missed 4 workouts. Can't play until you make up what you missed in non-mandatory work outs. Some times kids just want to be part of something to be part of something. To be around their buddies. To have something to do so they don't have to go home to God only knows what. Look at these teams with 80-100 kids. Can't tell me the vast majority aren't just along for the ride. We're a small school and I get it, I get pissed when kids miss our summer stuff. But I can pretty tell you who our starters will be at every position this up coming season regardless of what they do in the summer. This isn't the NFL where guys battle for their jobs every day. AMEN!!
|
|
|
Post by poundtherock1 on Jun 17, 2016 20:57:43 GMT -6
At the end of the day what I've figured out is this: the kids that are at workouts are the kids that will play 95% of the time. Sure, sometimes you have a kid who is a stud baseball player who can't make workout because of summer leagues, or a kid working to support his family. But most of the time the kids that are consistently at workouts are the ones that will be depended on. And truthfully most of the time they would be if they never showed up. Obviously they wouldn't be able to be as successful as they could be which is why you work out.
That's where standards set over time come into play. Once you've been at a place a few years and the culture is set, you get the juniors and seniors that have seen the older guys work and worked alongside them.
We do use an incentive program with our locker rooms based on attendance. It's a Joe Paterno deal where a certain percentage of attendance earns you a spot in what used to be our "varsity" locker room.
|
|
|
Post by nltdiego on Jun 17, 2016 21:28:07 GMT -6
So I started this original post. The kid wants to come to the last 1/4 of practice. I just think this sets a bad precedent and arranging deals with kids.
|
|
|
Post by holmesbend on Jun 17, 2016 21:35:21 GMT -6
Back to the original post - how many of us have had kids who did not come to ONE Summer activity - lifting, conditioning, 7-on-7, et al - and make a significant contribution during the competitive season? My first year as a HC in 2012...kid who hadn't played since middle school and was without question, hands down the best athlete in the school. He was playing basketball most all summer long on different travel teams, all star, etc. He'd told me all winter and spring long that he would be there by August 1st at the latest. Moral of the story? He was 1K+ all purpose (roundabouts 1300 I think), including 6-7 INT's....we went 6-6 that year and without him we maybe win 4. Division 1 Point Guard at Troy University.
|
|