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Post by mattharris75 on Jun 24, 2016 13:45:42 GMT -6
The thing about a rule is, once you make it you have to enforce it...
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Post by CBNIndian on Jun 24, 2016 13:55:23 GMT -6
So true Matt and that is the hardest thing. You have to stick to your guns so to say but as you lay the foundation to the program it will then take care of itself. Kids will know what they can and can't do. Tough at first enforcing the rule but great later on.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 24, 2016 14:04:52 GMT -6
Common sense is the main thing. Death in the family we excuse the kid. Hospital or emergency situation we excuse the kid. Our rule is it is excused but you still sit the first quarter so that the kid that practiced that day gets to play. We then play the kid that missed starting in the 2nd quarter. Builds depth and makes you pay attention to the back up a little more during practice because you never know when a situation will happen. That is season practice. Summer workouts are the same. Death in family or divorced situation (have a kid going through that right now) you do what you have to do to take care of your family but if you miss because of anything else we tell the kid he can be on the team. We give each kid 3 misses after that we start questioning his work ethic and character. If a kid misses more than 3 we tell him he is still part of the team. He can participate in all team functions once the season starts. He will be a scout team player and hold dummies. We make sure all our kids know this before summer workouts start. I have the feeling that the kid that doesn't workout and participate in the summer he will let you down some time in the season so put your time into someone else. I believe in doing things my way because if I get fired I can say I did it in a way I thought was right. Funny thing people may say I'm archaic but I don't really care. Our numbers are sky high for a class A school and kids know the best players that work hard get on the field. QB missed practice the first week of the playoffs last year. Didn't play him. I still dressed him because if we got in touble I was going to put him in and not punish the team or the seniors for his actions. Had a plan to run him later if he had to go in. Many people hollering to play the QB as the game went on and pulled away in the 4th quarter. We won by 28 with a back up. People thought we should have won by more. Still stuck to my rules but wasn't stupid. You have to know the situation. I as far as summer I don't bend. They don't come they don't play but they are still on the team. I 100% agree with you.
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Post by bigmoot on Jun 24, 2016 18:58:28 GMT -6
Bottom line...my #1 rb is gonna play regardless of his summer attendance. He is that much better....what do you do...job=winning
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Post by wingtol on Jun 24, 2016 19:40:23 GMT -6
So true Matt and that is the hardest thing. You have to stick to your guns so to say but as you lay the foundation to the program it will then take care of itself. Kids will know what they can and can't do. Tough at first enforcing the rule but great later on. So kids family members shouldn't die during the season if they expect to start? Kids families shouldn't have medical emergencies during the season if they expect to start?
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Post by fantom on Jun 24, 2016 21:41:01 GMT -6
So true Matt and that is the hardest thing. You have to stick to your guns so to say but as you lay the foundation to the program it will then take care of itself. Kids will know what they can and can't do. Tough at first enforcing the rule but great later on. i'm going to come out and say it: I think you guys are out of your phukin minds. A kids has to miss offseason workouts because he's taking a class and you want to keep him off the field whether he's good or not? Doesn't make sense. A death in the family is the only excuse? Phuk me, that sounds insane. I've been in this business for a long time. We've had some success and have had a good offseason program, which has been a big part of that success. That has not been because we gig kids for taking a class or because they go on vacation with the family.
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Post by mattharris75 on Jun 24, 2016 22:50:23 GMT -6
So true Matt and that is the hardest thing. You have to stick to your guns so to say but as you lay the foundation to the program it will then take care of itself. Kids will know what they can and can't do. Tough at first enforcing the rule but great later on. i'm going to come out and say it: I think you guys are out of your phukin minds. A kids has to miss offseason workouts because he's taking a class and you want to keep him off the field whether he's good or not? Doesn't make sense. A death in the family is the only excuse? Phuk me, that sounds insane. I've been in this business for a long time. We've had some success and have had a good offseason program, which has been a big part of that success. That has not been because we gig kids for taking a class or because they go on vacation with the family. That was not the point of my post at all. Rather, be judicious with the rules you make, because there are so few things that can be considered absolutes. When you say "Must attend 100% of summer practices or X is the result", well then you have to enforce X, because you're a chump if you don't. So don't make the rule to begin with. I've been a part of a program where the head coach made a ton of rules and was an all or nothing black & white guy, and it bit him in the butt repeatedly. It was a valuable lesson for me... Oh, and he got fired. Deservedly so. Life is grey, and the few rules that you have should account for that. Building the culture you want is a process, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is not, typically*, a great strategy. (* Every situation is different)
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Post by CBNIndian on Jun 24, 2016 23:18:44 GMT -6
I do enforce the rules that are set. Don't have a ton of rules but summer workout attendance is one of them that I do.
If a kid misses because of a death that is beyond excused in my book, the kid needs to handle his family and himself and take his time. A kid that misses just because he has no character or is lazy and doesn't show up is the player I have a problem with. Then as you guys say "you been doing this along time" well so have I and that same kid will let you down in crunch time during the season. He is going to get you fired by not playing him as you say ..... well then why not get fired with kids that have character.
Had a kid miss 5 straight workouts in the morning over 2 weeks yet was at basketball workouts at 2:00pm in the gym everyone of those days. I guess as you say let him come and do as he wants when the season comes around. Same basketball workout that I went by had 10-12 other football players at it that had been to workouts and practice that morning. He was no different than the others that were there. It is ok to old school today fellas. Make kids be accountable. I guess I am out of my mind.
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mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
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Post by mc140 on Jun 24, 2016 23:27:05 GMT -6
One of our best players is going to miss workouts next week for travel baseball tournament out of state. Not a chance in hell we would sit him week one over that. Especially considering he is a baseball kid who plays football.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 25, 2016 6:23:40 GMT -6
I do enforce the rules that are set. Don't have a ton of rules but summer workout attendance is one of them that I do. If a kid misses because of a death that is beyond excused in my book, the kid needs to handle his family and himself and take his time. A kid that misses just because he has no character or is lazy and doesn't show up is the player I have a problem with. Then as you guys say "you been doing this along time" well so have I and that same kid will let you down in crunch time during the season. He is going to get you fired by not playing him as you say ..... well then why not get fired with kids that have character. Had a kid miss 5 straight workouts in the morning over 2 weeks yet was at basketball workouts at 2:00pm in the gym everyone of those days. I guess as you say let him come and do as he wants when the season comes around. Same basketball workout that I went by had 10-12 other football players at it that had been to workouts and practice that morning. He was no different than the others that were there. It is ok to old school today fellas. Make kids be accountable. I guess I am out of my mind. I am not saying you can't hold kids accountable, just in one post you say a death in the family or medical emergency is excusable but the kid will still sit a quarter. I just find that crazy. I could never imagine telling a kid, and we went through a situation a few years ago with a parents death, sorry about your mom/dad Jimmy but Joey is gonna start cause you were at the funeral Wednesday. Most times those are the situations where the kid needs to play every snap they can to help them deal with the situation. Those were the two things I had issue with in your OP about it. Also how do you get away with making summer mandatory? We do summer work outs and all that but would be in a world of trouble if we made them mandatory according to our state association. Highly recommend and encouraged but no way can we make them mandatory or hold kids accountable for what they do in the summer before the official start date.
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Post by fantom on Jun 25, 2016 6:42:46 GMT -6
i'm going to come out and say it: I think you guys are out of your phukin minds. A kids has to miss offseason workouts because he's taking a class and you want to keep him off the field whether he's good or not? Doesn't make sense. A death in the family is the only excuse? Phuk me, that sounds insane. I've been in this business for a long time. We've had some success and have had a good offseason program, which has been a big part of that success. That has not been because we gig kids for taking a class or because they go on vacation with the family. That was not the point of my post at all. Rather, be judicious with the rules you make, because there are so few things that can be considered absolutes. When you say "Must attend 100% of summer practices or X is the result", well then you have to enforce X, because you're a chump if you don't. So don't make the rule to begin with. I've been a part of a program where the head coach made a ton of rules and was an all or nothing black & white guy, and it bit him in the butt repeatedly. It was a valuable lesson for me... Oh, and he got fired. Deservedly so. Life is grey, and the few rules that you have should account for that. Building the culture you want is a process, and cutting off your nose to spite your face is not, typically*, a great strategy. (* Every situation is different) And I agree. I'm afraid that the OP is headed down the same road as your old boss.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 25, 2016 8:53:31 GMT -6
I am not saying you can't hold kids accountable, just in one post you say a death in the family or medical emergency is excusable but the kid will still sit a quarter. I just find that crazy. I could never imagine telling a kid, and we went through a situation a few years ago with a parents death, sorry about your mom/dad Jimmy but Joey is gonna start cause you were at the funeral Wednesday. Most times those are the situations where the kid needs to play every snap they can to help them deal with the situation. Those were the two things I had issue with in your OP about it. I understand what you are trying to say here, but I do have some questions. If it benefits a kid to play every snap they can to deal with the loss of a family member, do you start "non-starters" who suffer a loss in season? And if it is the common expectation that if a player misses a practice then the person who practiced instead plays 1 quarter, it isn't terribly traumatic. I think of lot of it is in how the coaching staff frames the policy. They aren't punishing the guy who missed. They are staring the guy who actually practiced for the competition that week. That said, I think the environment in which a policy like that can go over well is very specific and not common in high school football. I think this quote should serve to remind us here that situations are SO SO very different across the country, and that when we start to judge things we have to remember that our judgments are forged by our perspectives and circumstances which could be quite different than those of the posts we are commenting on. Lastly, I have to say that I think the concepts discussed in this thread is complex, but ultimately the wrong way to look at the situation. As I said earlier, rather than focus efforts on how to force the kids to come, focus the efforts on making sure the kids don't want to miss.
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Post by blb on Jun 25, 2016 9:01:33 GMT -6
I coached 41 years, until I was 61.
No one is more "old school" than me.
We couldn't make Off Season activities mandatory and I wouldn't if I could have.
These are HS kids, not scholarship athletes. They need time to be kids, especially in the Summer.
So we provided incentives for Summer attendance. No consequences other than they might start off down the first day depth chart if they didn't perform as well on Physical Fitness Test because they did not workout regularly.
But when games came around best players played.
Now once official practice started, the easiest quickest way to get in HC's dog house was to miss or be late.
Excused absences were church or school obligations, illness, or family emergencies.
If you accumulated three unexcused absences, you were out. But that rarely if ever happened.
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Post by fantom on Jun 25, 2016 9:08:10 GMT -6
I coached 41 years, until I was 61. No one is more "old school" than me. We couldn't make Off Season activities mandatory and I wouldn't if I could have. These are HS kids, not scholarship athletes. They need time to be kids, especially in the Summer. So we provided incentives for Summer attendance. No consequences other than they might start off down the first day depth chart if they didn't perform as well on Physical Fitness Test because they did not workout regularly. But when games came around best players played. Now once official practice started, the easiest quickest way to get in HC's dog house was to miss or be late. Excused absences were church or school obligations, illness, or family emergencies. If you accumulated three unexcused absences, you were out. But that rarely if ever happened. That's almost exactly the way that we do it.
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Post by jg78 on Jun 25, 2016 9:25:30 GMT -6
The thing about a rule is, once you make it you have to enforce it... This is why I think it's very - very - important to think through every rule you may implement and try to imagine 1) if you can live with the worst case scenario of enforcing it (ex: a key player sitting the bench and costing you a game) and 2) if a situation may arise where enforcing the rule defies common sense (ex: you require X number of workouts during the summer to be able to play but a good, hardworking kid spends his summers out of state living with his dad). Strongly consider possible exceptions to your rules before you break out the hammer and chisel and set them in stone. Try to avoid putting yourself in a situation where you have to choose between winning, your integrity, and doing the right thing because of some poorly conceived, short-sighted rule.
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Post by mattharris75 on Jun 25, 2016 12:25:52 GMT -6
The thing about a rule is, once you make it you have to enforce it... This is why I think it's very - very - important to think through every rule you may implement and try to imagine 1) if you can live with the worst case scenario of enforcing it (ex: a key player sitting the bench and costing you a game) and 2) if a situation may arise where enforcing the rule defies common sense (ex: you require X number of workouts during the summer to be able to play but a good, hardworking kid spends his summers out of state living with his dad). Strongly consider possible exceptions to your rules before you break out the hammer and chisel and set them in stone. Try to avoid putting yourself in a situation where you have to choose between winning, your integrity, and doing the right thing because of some poorly conceived, short-sighted rule. Yeah, exactly what I was trying to imply with my original post. I think some just missed the nuance...
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 25, 2016 14:16:08 GMT -6
I think we(HSFB coaches in general) have started to take ourselves just a little too seriously with the summer workout stuff. Strength is a long game. A real long game. If it's essential for your kids to make every workout during that six to eight week summer window you have a pretty weak program and you need to analyze your programming. If you are lifting ALL year you won't be making any significant gains from your upperclassmen in a six week period.
EVERY SINGLE DAY someone posts a thread about "help me change culture", "kids don't like football", "football is not popular here", "I'm losing athletes to XYZ sport"...
Maybe that's because football has become a total beat down for them and they need a break. It's okay to let them be kids. It's okay if they go do something else. If most coaches are totally frank and honest with themselves they will recognize that their teenage self would not be able to live up to the standards they are demanding from others.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 25, 2016 14:19:33 GMT -6
I think this is a great quote.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 25, 2016 15:06:16 GMT -6
I think we(HSFB coaches in general) have started to take ourselves just a little too seriously with the summer workout stuff. Strength is a long game. A real long game. If it's essential for your kids to make every workout during that six to eight week summer window you have a pretty weak program and you need to analyze your programming. If you are lifting ALL year you won't be making any significant gains from your upperclassmen in a six week period. EVERY SINGLE DAY someone posts a thread about "help me change culture", "kids don't like football", "football is not popular here", "I'm losing athletes to XYZ sport"... Maybe that's because football has become a total beat down for them and they need a break. It's okay to let them be kids. It's okay if they go do something else. If most coaches are totally frank and honest with themselves they will recognize that their teenage self would not be able to live up to the standards they are demanding from others. I think it's always funny how guys post bitching about this sport or that sport and what they want THEIR football players to do in the off-seasons but then turn around and talk about how rigid they are in their own football off-season stuff!
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mhs99
Junior Member
Posts: 250
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Post by mhs99 on Jun 25, 2016 20:14:39 GMT -6
While I did not comb through every response on this topic, I will say this: evaluate your your off-season program. So many schools now not only lift, but run kid though a agility drills and/or straight conditioning. It adds up quick to 1 1/2 to 2 hours....Well hell Skippy, when I was 16-18, like most of you I would much rather chase poontang, hang out with friends, or work for cash in the summer, not run after lifting for 4-5 days a week. With plyometric warm-ups, our average time a lifting session should take is 50 min-1 hour max, 4 days a week. Another key point: 90% of our kids work and make good money (resort area) in the summer so we open at 7:30-10:00 in the morning and 4:30-7:00 in the evening, a stress to our staff but convenient to our kids, no excuses at that point and they know we are selling out for them because we think it is important.
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Post by Castor on Jun 26, 2016 11:26:13 GMT -6
In Texas, we can't make anything in the summer mandatory. We obviously try to encourage it, but can't force them to.
What we do to counter all this, is have a conditioning test the first day of 2-A-Days. If you pass, you are good. If you don't pass, you keep running it in the morning every day of 2-A-Days until you pass.
This helps us encourage the use of summer workouts, as those who show up make the time. This also helps us with those that never come to workouts, but have to do stuff like haul hay for their dad all summer. Those kids are in better shape than the ones coming to workouts anyways.
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Post by dytmook on Jun 26, 2016 14:29:06 GMT -6
In Texas, we can't make anything in the summer mandatory. We obviously try to encourage it, but can't force them to. What we do to counter all this, is have a conditioning test the first day of 2-A-Days. If you pass, you are good. If you don't pass, you keep running it in the morning every day of 2-A-Days until you pass. This helps us encourage the use of summer workouts, as those who show up make the time. This also helps us with those that never come to workouts, but have to do stuff like haul hay for their dad all summer. Those kids are in better shape than the ones coming to workouts anyways. With that what do you do with kids who come all summer and still wouldn't pass?
I only ask because I can think of one guy on our team who wouldn't pass. Do you just have him torture himself every day during 2 a days. I'm just curious because obviously we don't expect anything on the field from this kid yet but we would like him around. He's a nice kid, just not gifted and we think has had some home issues so we want him to be a part of something. Dang it he does show up and we push him, but he's just not that mentally tough.
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Post by Castor on Jun 26, 2016 14:50:06 GMT -6
In Texas, we can't make anything in the summer mandatory. We obviously try to encourage it, but can't force them to. What we do to counter all this, is have a conditioning test the first day of 2-A-Days. If you pass, you are good. If you don't pass, you keep running it in the morning every day of 2-A-Days until you pass. This helps us encourage the use of summer workouts, as those who show up make the time. This also helps us with those that never come to workouts, but have to do stuff like haul hay for their dad all summer. Those kids are in better shape than the ones coming to workouts anyways. With that what do you do with kids who come all summer and still wouldn't pass?
I only ask because I can think of one guy on our team who wouldn't pass. Do you just have him torture himself every day during 2 a days. I'm just curious because obviously we don't expect anything on the field from this kid yet but we would like him around. He's a nice kid, just not gifted and we think has had some home issues so we want him to be a part of something. Dang it he does show up and we push him, but he's just not that mentally tough.
By the 2nd or 3rd day there are only a handful left. They come in the morning a little earlier than anyone else, and we may "skew" the times for them. Our conditioning test is two of the same running for an average inbetween. They have to make time and both times have to be close to each other.
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Post by dytmook on Jun 26, 2016 14:57:57 GMT -6
okay just wondering. Does each position group get time goals or is it an individual goal? I like the idea.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 26, 2016 15:02:46 GMT -6
Love this... What is the test?
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Post by Castor on Jun 26, 2016 20:55:31 GMT -6
Position groups.
Lineman and Skill kids
We change it sometimes but typically it's the 300 yard shuttle. They have 1 minute to rest in between.
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Post by mariner42 on Jun 27, 2016 7:10:17 GMT -6
Position groups. Lineman and Skill kids We change it sometimes but typically it's the 300 yard shuttle. They have 1 minute to rest in between. Excellent test to make kids miserable. Not so great for football carry over.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Jun 27, 2016 11:54:22 GMT -6
Our players should receive grandsons of the year awards or babysitter of the year awards because I'm hearing so many excuses as to why guys can't make summer practice. I'm pretty reasonable and of course a family death or certain emergencies need to be taken care of before summer football but it's to the point of ridiculous now. I know for a fact our opponents do not have as many guys miss summer. Here's the other part. I think it's inpoeant for us as coaches to relax a bit and enjoy our summers too because when we don't, we can become bitter toward our players for missing. I haven't missed a practice, meeting, or workout in 12 years of coaching & the I never missed one as a player. It infuriates me when they don't have the same type of commitment. But I also mak sure to take some time off and enjoy myself because if I don't I'll become a very cantankerous individual and that isn't good for anyone.
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Post by Castor on Jun 27, 2016 12:25:13 GMT -6
Position groups. Lineman and Skill kids We change it sometimes but typically it's the 300 yard shuttle. They have 1 minute to rest in between. Excellent test to make kids miserable. Not so great for football carry over. Not concerned with Football Carry over. The kids know about it and know how bad it sucks if they are out of shape. That gets alot up there. We don't do a strict summer workout program anyways. We try to give them time off. I wish it could go back to how it used to be sometimes where we didnt have summer workouts and all these leagues, camps, 7 on 7 etc. But if you completely abolish it you are "falling behind" in the eyes of the town, whether you are or not.
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Post by Castor on Jun 27, 2016 12:27:22 GMT -6
Our players should receive grandsons of the year awards or babysitter of the year awards because I'm hearing so many excuses as to why guys can't make summer practice. I'm pretty reasonable and of course a family death or certain emergencies need to be taken care of before summer football but it's to the point of ridiculous now. I know for a fact our opponents do not have as many guys miss summer. Here's the other part. I think it's inpoeant for us as coaches to relax a bit and enjoy our summers too because when we don't, we can become bitter toward our players for missing. I haven't missed a practice, meeting, or workout in 12 years of coaching & the I never missed one as a player. It infuriates me when they don't have the same type of commitment. But I also make sure to take some time off and enjoy myself because if I don't I'll become a very cantankerous individual and that isn't good for anyone. Exactly this. We'll just wear ourselves out if we worry about everything. Going into the summer, most of us know the few kids in our program that just will not be at workouts regardless. Those reading with that perfect program that everyone comes to summer workouts and we will "hold their foot to the fire if they don't" I have summer ocean front property in Arizona for ya.
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