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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 21:57:36 GMT -6
So I started this original post. The kid wants to come to the last 1/4 of practice. I just think this sets a bad precedent and arranging deals with kids. Wait a minute... So, given a typical 2-hour HS football practice, he only wants to attend the last 30 minutes? What is his justification for wanting to do that?
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 17, 2016 22:04:29 GMT -6
He will miss conditioning and weights for SAT class. Last 30 Minutes is field work, instal, football fundamentals.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 17, 2016 22:57:46 GMT -6
He will miss conditioning and weights for SAT class. Last 30 Minutes is field work, instal, football fundamentals. My mistake...I thought you were referring to regular, in-season practices. I think you are looking at this all wrong. It would be very easy for him to not come at all but instead he is making an effort to come to at least some of the practice (and arguably the most important part). I think the kid should be commended for that. In fact, I find it pretty disturbing that a high school football coach (and I am assuming a teacher) is faulting a kid who apparently is serious enough about the SAT that he is sitting though an 7-hour-a-day summer course to get a better score. How do you see this situation being resolved? If it is up to you, would you tell the kid to not bother playing, that he is off the team? Or are you going to let him be on the team but play kids who aren't as good as he is to punish him? And how do you think it will go over when you try and justify your actions to the kid's parents and your administration? That you are essentially screwing a kid because he chose academics over football? Honestly, it sounds like you have something personal against this kid. Is he a troublemaker? Bad teammate? It sounds like you have an axe to grind and you are using these missed practices to justify your feelings towards him.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 17, 2016 23:40:50 GMT -6
He will miss conditioning and weights for SAT class. Last 30 Minutes is field work, instal, football fundamentals. My mistake...I thought you were referring to regular, in-season practices. I think you are looking at this all wrong. It would be very easy for him to not come at all but instead he is making an effort to come to at least some of the practice (and arguably the most important part). I think the kid should be commended for that. In fact, I find it pretty disturbing that a high school football coach (and I am assuming a teacher) is faulting a kid who apparently is serious enough about the SAT that he is sitting though an 7-hour-a-day summer course to get a better score. How do you see this situation being resolved? If it is up to you, would you tell the kid to not bother playing, that he is off the team? Or are you going to let him be on the team but play kids who aren't as good as he is to punish him? And how do you think it will go over when you try and justify your actions to the kid's parents and your administration? That you are essentially screwing a kid because he chose academics over football? Honestly, it sounds like you have something personal against this kid. Is he a troublemaker? Bad teammate? It sounds like you have an axe to grind and you are using these missed practices to justify your feelings towards him. I didn't get the same impression from the OP, I think you're making some pretty broad leaps in the last couple paragraphs. That said the kid likely has very little control over this, I'd much rather try to talk with kid and parent to see if we could work something out but if not then I'd be glad that after sitting through that class all day the kid is willing to get over for the last 30 minutes. I would try to make a plan with him for how he plans to get his lifting and running done on his own time to "keep up." Obviously doing that stuff on his own won't be as effective as it would be in a group setting in all likelihood and the guy will miss out on some "team building" type moments that I do think matter, but all in all I think the situation is workable.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2016 5:09:51 GMT -6
This family is making kid take a SAT class all summer 8-4. I want to send message but kids fault. Wonder if you educate parents ever. I might be out of touch here---but an SAT class..every day...all summer...for 8 hours? I have never heard of such a thing. Not every day, not all summer.
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Post by blb on Jun 18, 2016 5:52:01 GMT -6
This family is making kid take a SAT class all summer 8-4. I want to send message but kids fault. Wonder if you educate parents ever. I might be out of touch here---but an SAT class..every day...all summer...for 8 hours? I have never heard of such a thing. Not every day, not all summer.
If true, kid's parents must really dislike him. That's an expensive baby sitter.
There are several online SAT Prep courses and the most instructional time I've seen is 25 hours. Individual tutors typically meet with student when-where you want.
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Post by s73 on Jun 18, 2016 5:56:40 GMT -6
Do you guys let kids miss all summer and play in fall? I know broad question but just curious what different program philosophies and rules are. Where we live summer cannot be made mandatory b/c it is not an official part of the season. With that said, I have only once had a kid miss the whole summer and be GOOD enough to start for us and that was b/c our team was 1-8 that year. Most teams he would've never seen the field.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 18, 2016 6:13:37 GMT -6
As with everything in football I stole this from someone on here, just a reminder when we start getting all high and mighty and puffing our chests out to prove a point to teenagers:
Some kids need football more than football needs them.
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Post by blb on Jun 18, 2016 6:23:37 GMT -6
We had our Parents' Meeting Monday of the last week of school every June.
Among other things we stressed to them the importance of our Summer Conditioning program and solicited their help getting kids there.
Of course some parents didn't care enough to show up for meeting and some couldn't get kids to clean their rooms or do their homework much less go to workouts in June-July.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 18, 2016 6:42:25 GMT -6
My mistake...I thought you were referring to regular, in-season practices. I think you are looking at this all wrong. It would be very easy for him to not come at all but instead he is making an effort to come to at least some of the practice (and arguably the most important part). I think the kid should be commended for that. In fact, I find it pretty disturbing that a high school football coach (and I am assuming a teacher) is faulting a kid who apparently is serious enough about the SAT that he is sitting though an 7-hour-a-day summer course to get a better score. How do you see this situation being resolved? If it is up to you, would you tell the kid to not bother playing, that he is off the team? Or are you going to let him be on the team but play kids who aren't as good as he is to punish him? And how do you think it will go over when you try and justify your actions to the kid's parents and your administration? That you are essentially screwing a kid because he chose academics over football? Honestly, it sounds like you have something personal against this kid. Is he a troublemaker? Bad teammate? It sounds like you have an axe to grind and you are using these missed practices to justify your feelings towards him. I didn't get the same impression from the OP, I think you're making some pretty broad leaps in the last couple paragraphs. That said the kid likely has very little control over this, I'd much rather try to talk with kid and parent to see if we could work something out but if not then I'd be glad that after sitting through that class all day the kid is willing to get over for the last 30 minutes. I would try to make a plan with him for how he plans to get his lifting and running done on his own time to "keep up." Obviously doing that stuff on his own won't be as effective as it would be in a group setting in all likelihood and the guy will miss out on some "team building" type moments that I do think matter, but all in all I think the situation is workable. And that is why I posted what I did about the OP taking this personally. The kid has no control over the fact that his parents signed him up for the class. How can a coach be so obtuse as to hold a kid accountable for something over which the kid has no control? And again...the solution is simple. When practice starts in August, this kid probably won't be good enough to play anyway because he will be physically inferior to his teammates. So, he won't play. Isn't that enough? Isn't that were it should begin and end? Survival of the fittest!
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2016 6:53:07 GMT -6
So I started this original post. The kid wants to come to the last 1/4 of practice. I just think this sets a bad precedent and arranging deals with kids. Don't start fights that you can't win. The kid is going to school all summer not chasing tail at the beach all day. If Mom complains to the principal and the principal makes you take the kid back then your program has really been undermined.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2016 6:53:40 GMT -6
And again...the solution is simple. When practice starts in August, this kid probably won't be good enough to play anyway because he will be physically inferior to his teammates. So, he won't play. Isn't that enough? Isn't that were it should begin and end? Survival of the fittest! Actually--no. Now I am not talking about this specific case, but I do understand the underlying concern of the OP. The objective isn't to be better than your teammates so as to play, but rather better than your OPPONENTS so as to WIN. I do realize that this is sometimes a very VERY difficult concept to get across to certain programs/areas, and those schools tend to be perennial losers in many sports. But I do think that it helps to start with THAT MINDSET. Not that you work to win jobs, but you have to work to win games. Just going from my experience as a 3 year starter on a BAD team in a BAD program that not really was given that message.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 18, 2016 6:59:41 GMT -6
Another issue I take with situations like this is the scheduling of these summer events. If this kid is in class from 8-4, he is still missing the first 3/4 minutes of summer practice? What time does summer practice start? It sounds to me like the summer practices are starting pretty early. This kid is the only player on the team who is having an issue being there? There aren't other kids who have issues getting rides (because parents are still at work) or the kids might still be at work when practice starts?
I've worked for programs in the past in which the summer practice schedule was written for the convenience of the coaches, not for the players. The weight room was open at times that weren't convenient for players who had issues getting rides or had to work. And then those same kids were criticized for "not being dedicated" because they couldn't show up due to issues that were beyond their control. And God forbid that those kids train on their own...that is never tolerated!
Our team is a co-op program between two schools. Our HFC has the weight rooms at both schools open every morning from 8-10am and in the evening from 5:30-7:00pm. And summer practices are scheduled in the evening. It is not the most convenient schedule for the HFC but he wrote it with the idea that he wanted to give the kids every opportunity possible to participate. If these summer activities are so important for kids to attend, then I think the coaches need to make the schedule with the kids' schedules in mind, not the coaches.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 18, 2016 7:03:00 GMT -6
Actually--no. Now I am not talking about this specific case, but I do understand the underlying concern of the OP. The objective isn't to be better than your teammates so as to play, but rather better than your OPPONENTS so as to WIN. I do realize that this is sometimes a very VERY difficult concept to get across to certain programs/areas, and those schools tend to be perennial losers in many sports. But I do think that it helps to start with THAT MINDSET. Not that you work to win jobs, but you have to work to win games. Just going from my experience as a 3 year starter on a BAD team in a BAD program that not really was given that message. But if a kid isn't good enough to beat out his teammates for playing time, he's not good enough to help you win anyway.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2016 7:15:05 GMT -6
Actually--no. Now I am not talking about this specific case, but I do understand the underlying concern of the OP. The objective isn't to be better than your teammates so as to play, but rather better than your OPPONENTS so as to WIN. I do realize that this is sometimes a very VERY difficult concept to get across to certain programs/areas, and those schools tend to be perennial losers in many sports. But I do think that it helps to start with THAT MINDSET. Not that you work to win jobs, but you have to work to win games. Just going from my experience as a 3 year starter on a BAD team in a BAD program that not really was given that message. But if a kid isn't good enough to beat out his teammates for playing time, he's not good enough to help you win anyway. But if he IS good enough to help/contribute without working out...he still may not be good enough to help you win. I am just describing what I think the "gold standard" mindset should be. I recognize that when you examine individual cases, the application is still the same. But I believe a better mindset for the program (especially struggling ones) should be keeping Friday night opponents in mind, not just winning jobs. When your toughest competition is Monday-Thursday...and Fridays are a breeze, well then you are like the "U" during their dynasty days and things will be OK.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 18, 2016 7:21:04 GMT -6
But if a kid isn't good enough to beat out his teammates for playing time, he's not good enough to help you win anyway. But if he IS good enough to help/contribute without working out...he still may not be good enough to help you win. I am just describing what I think the "gold standard" mindset should be. I recognize that when you examine individual cases, the application is still the same. But I believe a better mindset for the program (especially struggling ones) should be keeping Friday night opponents in mind, not just winning jobs. When your toughest competition is Monday-Thursday...and Fridays are a breeze, well then you are like the "U" during their dynasty days and things will be OK. All the more reason to write the summer schedule so that it is conducive to the kids' schedules. If the summer activities are so critical to the team's success, those activities should be scheduled at times that are most convenient for the kids to attend.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2016 7:34:53 GMT -6
But if he IS good enough to help/contribute without working out...he still may not be good enough to help you win. I am just describing what I think the "gold standard" mindset should be. I recognize that when you examine individual cases, the application is still the same. But I believe a better mindset for the program (especially struggling ones) should be keeping Friday night opponents in mind, not just winning jobs. When your toughest competition is Monday-Thursday...and Fridays are a breeze, well then you are like the "U" during their dynasty days and things will be OK. All the more reason to write the summer schedule so that it is conducive to the kids' schedules. If the summer activities are so critical to the team's success, those activities should be scheduled at times that are most convenient for the kids to attend. Absolutely agree. You have touched on one of my pet peeves in general regarding education. I have seen admins consistently harp on the importance of parental involvment--then have a "parents night" starting at 5pm.... It is ridiculous for coaches to harp on off season workouts, and then not set up something that works with the kids.
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Post by nltdiego on Jun 18, 2016 7:53:43 GMT -6
I agree with everybody and value all your ideas. I was lucky to be be part of a transition where we took over a losing program, and the biggest issue was attendance. Now, I have taken over the same type of program. The make sports teams in the school that are successful are the ones that hold kids accountable. I saw the LAX program lose every game because star players got special treatment, and were able to show up late, miss practice, etc. I dont think it sends a clear message letting a kid show up late. When does the negotiations end with parents?
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Post by blb on Jun 18, 2016 8:05:40 GMT -6
Showing up late or missing practice after the season has officially begun is different than missing non-mandatory stuff in the Off Season.
I don't know what rules are in your state but in ours we couldn't "practice" until August. We could have maximum ten days of camps, do seven days of 7-on-7s, and work with a maximum of seven players at a time outside of camps until then.
Your use of the term "practice" for what occurs during Summer is confusing to me.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2016 8:11:22 GMT -6
I agree with everybody and value all your ideas. I was lucky to be be part of a transition where we took over a losing program, and the biggest issue was attendance. Now, I have taken over the same type of program. The make sports teams in the school that are successful are the ones that hold kids accountable. I saw the LAX program lose every game because star players got special treatment, and were able to show up late, miss practice, etc. I dont think it sends a clear message letting a kid show up late. When does the negotiations end with parents? When you decide that it ends.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2016 8:19:28 GMT -6
I'm not a fan of hard and fast rules. I think that they're a fall-back for pinheads who don't have the balls to run a program.
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Post by CS on Jun 18, 2016 8:22:37 GMT -6
I agree with everybody and value all your ideas. I was lucky to be be part of a transition where we took over a losing program, and the biggest issue was attendance. Now, I have taken over the same type of program. The make sports teams in the school that are successful are the ones that hold kids accountable. I saw the LAX program lose every game because star players got special treatment, and were able to show up late, miss practice, etc. I dont think it sends a clear message letting a kid show up late. When does the negotiations end with parents? I'm not sure that creating an ultimatum between playing and academic success is going to win you any friends within the school or community. I think as long as a kid is bettering himself you have a winner. If its that big of a problem then after the last part of practice is over have him get one lift in a day. It's not ideal but its worth it IMO
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Post by 19delta on Jun 18, 2016 8:28:21 GMT -6
I'm not a fan of hard and fast rules. I think that they're a fall-back for pinheads who don't have the balls to run a program. That is great!
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Post by fcboiler87 on Jun 18, 2016 8:34:52 GMT -6
Having been in administration some as well and having been around some good admin guys, the best advice I've heard is that you can't make things in black and white. You want it to be, but it doesn't work that way. That applied for them when it came to handing down discipline and dealing with situations, but it applies just the same to our rules in coaching.
We've got a guy who is a good baseball player who plays for us. Probably scholarship level. He won't be around much this summer. He should be our starting QB. This gives two other guys that are pretty talented some opportunities for reps. Whenever the baseball kid comes around he will be given the chance to compete. Will he win the job? Who knows. There are no guarantees. He will be behind. But at least he hasn't spent the summer on the couch eating cheetos. His situation is different that this kid who started for us last year but hasn't come to one day of anything since last season and doesn't play any other sports. That kid can come out in August and join us but he will be sorely out of shape and will have no clue what's going on. Will he play much? I doubt it. Two different situations, thus two different ways it has to be handled. I don't love it, but you have to adapt or lose out completely.
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Post by mhcoach on Jun 18, 2016 8:38:38 GMT -6
Our summer workouts are 10 weeks, we go 3 times a week. Each player is given a grace of 3 workouts, after that they must make up the missed sessions. When school starts we have 6 am workouts for 2 weeks, that is 10 workouts at 6 am. Each 6 am counts as 3 summer workouts. Using this system a player can miss the entire Summer Workouts & still play.
It is rare that we ever have a player miss the entire summer. 6 am's are hated for their intensity. Last season we had a player leave town for the entire summer. It was a split family situation. The player's father contacted the school & went to the Principle. We had to explain how things worked & the Principle backed us up.
Joe
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Post by spos21ram on Jun 18, 2016 9:41:12 GMT -6
We can't make anything out of season mandatory. We have to let them come out.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 18, 2016 20:00:55 GMT -6
For us, it's all about the Jones. To get that 1% more that you need to be in the final 4, you have to have the trust, execution, and chemistry that you get from that commitment a kid shows by doing the work. If you're in a situation where moving from 4-7 to 7-4 is a big deal then it's not as important.
Simply coach your team, in your league, against your schedule and live with it.
Nothing wrong with either approach.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 18, 2016 20:10:03 GMT -6
For us, it's all about the Jones. To get that 1% more that you need to be in the final 4, you have to have the trust, execution, and chemistry that you get from that commitment a kid shows by doing the work. If you're in a situation where moving from 4-7 to 7-4 is a big deal then it's not as important. Simply coach your team, in your league, against your schedule and live with it. Nothing wrong with either approach. I would suspect that in many if not most cases, as your success grows, your expectations can also grow. Chances are, if you are making deep playoff runs, your kids already know how to compete, and understand that if they aren't busting their hump, somebody else will.
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Post by coachpech on Jun 19, 2016 14:56:37 GMT -6
Awww I was hoping this subject would come up. It's a complete (pardon my language) fuc king joke at the school I coach at.
The kids do absolutely nothing, show zero committment, the HC ultimately lets them play, they face zero disciplinw for their lack of committment and the AD blames it on the financial situations much of these kids come from. He also says legally speaking there's nothing that can be done as far as a one or three game suspension. If anyone knows the laws in Iowa for that I would love to hear them because I dont trust his opinion.
The fact of the matter is this....the kids know they will face zero ramications for not meeting our lofty 2 day a week weights/agility expectation so they refuse to do it. Why would they if they know the HC and AD will not hold them accountable.
And people wonder why the program is one of the worst in the state year after year.
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Post by wolverine55 on Jun 19, 2016 15:54:23 GMT -6
He will miss conditioning and weights for SAT class. Last 30 Minutes is field work, instal, football fundamentals. My mistake...I thought you were referring to regular, in-season practices. I think you are looking at this all wrong. It would be very easy for him to not come at all but instead he is making an effort to come to at least some of the practice (and arguably the most important part). I think the kid should be commended for that. In fact, I find it pretty disturbing that a high school football coach (and I am assuming a teacher) is faulting a kid who apparently is serious enough about the SAT that he is sitting though an 7-hour-a-day summer course to get a better score. How do you see this situation being resolved? If it is up to you, would you tell the kid to not bother playing, that he is off the team? Or are you going to let him be on the team but play kids who aren't as good as he is to punish him? And how do you think it will go over when you try and justify your actions to the kid's parents and your administration? That you are essentially screwing a kid because he chose academics over football? Honestly, it sounds like you have something personal against this kid. Is he a troublemaker? Bad teammate? It sounds like you have an axe to grind and you are using these missed practices to justify your feelings towards him. Delt, I'm finding it a bit scary how much I'm agreeing with you lately...but I totally agree here too. Honestly, if the kid is sitting through the aforementioned SAT class and is going to go straight from that to however much of summer practice he can, I actually think that's a great example of him having commitment and is something the rest of the team should see as a positive example.
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