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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 22:17:54 GMT -6
Here’s the crappiest part about it all: Maryland will hire a new coach, likely a respected name. They’ll use this as a “us against the world” or “we’re squeaky clean now” war cry. It will attract more big name recruits than they normally get. And they’ll be as good as ever three years later. If you don’t believe me, look at how much Penn State, USC and other major programs have been “effected” by the NCAA slap on the wrist for this sort of thing. Ummm. USC and Penn State are in whole nother world than Maryland. When have they ever been good besides 65 years ago? I think the point is that it will all go away once Durkin and his staff are fired. But there won't be any real institutional changes put in place to prevent future abuse.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 18:16:56 GMT -6
Again, the point is missed. This kid that wiscoach posted about is not just a guy...not just some average high school player. We are talking about a kid who is an immediate ccontributor and who can be the difference between playing for a state title and getting the basketballs and wrestling mats out early. If we are talking about some weak, slow, overweight kid who is going to be no better than a scout team lineman, having him do the extra work after practice and lift would be appropriate because he clearly isn't good enough to compete on his own merits. Now, I wouldn't do that because I have better things to do with my time than babysit some chud, but I can at least see why you would have the kid do it in that situation. Good coaches treat players fairly, not equally. In this scenario, you have a chance to add a kid who is already better than everyone you have and might be the missing piece for a state championship team. And if the gamble pays off and the team is hoisting that trophy at the end of the season, you can be assured that this kid more than earned his spot. Coach,I don't think the point has been missed by those saying what I am saying. However, I do think you have been missing the contrasting point. You are talking about a team, one season. I am talking about the program. Because while this kid is fine, do you really trust 14-17 year olds to recognize the difference between Johnny, who shows up for the first time on the 8th day of PRACTICE and themselves? Do you trust them to recognize that while they may be able to do the same and still start (especially at a school of less than 200 students) they might not be able to do so and win? Again, this isn't a kid who missed a bunch of summer lifting sessions because of other sports, this is a kid who was NOT A PART OF THE TEAM for the last TWO seasons. The HFC is responsible for the program, not just the 2018-2019 team. The OP said they are a pretty good team, but a small school. I would be interested to see what the decade long history of the program has, but regardless I am betting that the competition for spots is significantly less than at a school of greater than 800 with similar success. Again, I ask where do you draw the line. 8th practice? Day before the first game? Monday before the week 8 Rivalry game? Week of the playoffs? If it were my call, based on what is written here, Yes, I would let him join, but he missed the first 7 practices. I would have him do things, not necessarily for his benefit, but for the OTHER guys who might not realize they aren't talented enough to do the same thing, but think about it just the same. Again, just speaking from the POV of a 3 year starter who was probably an average small school football player but new after spring of his sophomore year that he was going to start for the next 3 years. A couple of other friends were the same. Unfortunately those years yielded 2-8,2-8,1-9 seasons. What I'm telling you is that I don't draw the line. If a kid wants to come out for football, who am I to tell that kid, "no"? If a kid can come out late and he contributes, that's great. If a kid wants to come out late and he ends up a scout team o-lineman, that's OK, too. There is no need to have some hard and fast rule for when kids can't come out anymore for the simple reason that these situations are few and far between. How common is it that a kid comes out for football this late in the season? This is an anomaly..an outlier. And procedures and rules shouldn't be based on anomalies and outliers. Now, if you have this rash of kids who, year after year, decide to come out for football a week late, then you are probably going to establish some kind of cut-off date. But I just don't see that happening. Heck...I can't even remember the last time we had a guy show up the first day of practice who hadn't been around all summer. Maybe there is an epidemic of that in other parts of the country. Just not here. Regarding how the other kids perceive it...yes...I think those kids DO recognize the difference between the regular guys and the top guys. The kids might not like the fact that there are people who can perform at a high level without doing all the lifting and conditioning. It might piss them off that they didn't win the DNA lottery. But, at the end of the day, the kids know what the pecking order is. And winning is a lot more fun than losing. And most kids want to win (provided they are a part of the winning). If a kid like this can come in and be a major contributor to a state championship, the other kids are going to be just fine with having him on the team. Come November, no one is going to be thinking about the summer practices this kid missed if the team is playing the final game of the season at Camp Randall Stadium in Madison. And my perspectives are based on the small-school experience. Our high school has 200 students. The guys who play are the guys who lift all summer and participate in the summer program. The guys who don't do much don't play much. Not as a punishment. But simply because they aren't as good as the guys who put the work in over the summer. I don't know what the deal with your high school was. Perhaps you didn't have much tradition. Perhaps the coaches didn't emphasize the weight room. Or maybe you guys just weren't very good. But I don't see how your experience playing for a scuffling program compares with this situation (a team that wiscoach said was good enough now to make a deep playoff run even before Mr. All-Star showed up).
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 15:32:59 GMT -6
Here's another thing. It seems that a lot of you guys are automatically assuming that this kid is some kind of primadonna (for example, the posts about TO). wiscoach has not made any comments about this kid being a cancer. Is it possible that he was working on his other sports? I had a kid about 10 years ago who was a heck of a wrestler. Traveled all over the country in the summer to tournaments. Made almost no football activities. But he was a great kid and a heck of a lineman. We knew that we wouldn't be seeing him until August and that was ok. We were glad to have him and I don't mind saying that we needed him a lot more than he needed us. I understand what you are saying, but that is slightly different than a player who quit football as a freshman and is now looking to come back about 10 practices into his senior year. You have accurately mentioned that it seems readily apparent the kid in question did not "need" to be part of the program his soph,jr years or this past years offseason to be a starter on his squad. My concern is that I didn't need it either. I was a 3 year starter for my team. Unfortunately, for me, I was a very average if not below average small school player and my record in HS was 2-8, 2-8, 2-8, 1-9. My friends and I didn't have to be that good (obviously) to play, but unfortunately we were no where good enough to actually compete and win. While the player in question will probably be a very good football player regardless, the job of the HFC is to lead the PROGRAM, not just the 2018-2019 team. Based on what has been written here, (school size, previous school success, kids attitude and work ethic towards other sports etc) I would probably welcome the kid, but I would indeed have some type of "make up" work, because I would be very concerned about the culture of the program and the kid has already missed around 10 practices (never mind the summer). The HFC must act in the best interest of the program, not just this season. Again, the point is missed. This kid that wiscoach posted about is not just a guy...not just some average high school player. We are talking about a kid who is an immediate ccontributor and who can be the difference between playing for a state title and getting the basketballs and wrestling mats out early. If we are talking about some weak, slow, overweight kid who is going to be no better than a scout team lineman, having him do the extra work after practice and lift would be appropriate because he clearly isn't good enough to compete on his own merits. Now, I wouldn't do that because I have better things to do with my time than babysit some chud, but I can at least see why you would have the kid do it in that situation. Good coaches treat players fairly, not equally. In this scenario, you have a chance to add a kid who is already better than everyone you have and might be the missing piece for a state championship team. And if the gamble pays off and the team is hoisting that trophy at the end of the season, you can be assured that this kid more than earned his spot.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 11:42:51 GMT -6
Here's another thing. It seems that a lot of you guys are automatically assuming that this kid is some kind of primadonna (for example, the posts about TO). wiscoach has not made any comments about this kid being a cancer. Is it possible that he was working on his other sports? I had a kid about 10 years ago who was a heck of a wrestler. Traveled all over the country in the summer to tournaments. Made almost no football activities. But he was a great kid and a heck of a lineman. We knew that we wouldn't be seeing him until August and that was ok. We were glad to have him and I don't mind saying that we needed him a lot more than he needed us.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 11:31:39 GMT -6
What TO became was a HOFer. Who shrank when it mattered and is pretty universally hated by everyone he played with. How do you know he is universally hated by everyone he played with? If you remember correctly, most of the guys in the locker room in Philly were on Owens' side, not McNabb's. The reason TO has such a horrible reputation is because that was the narrative the sports media wanted to tell.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 11:29:23 GMT -6
Slapdick? According to wiscoach, this kid is one of the best high school athletes in the state and has D1 offers in other sports. And he hasn't said anything about the kid being a cancer. That doesn't sound like slapdick to me. Letting the kids decide is a cop-out. You are the coach. The coach gets paid to make the tough decisions. Although, in this case, it should not be a tough decision at all. And, I don't know what the Wisconsin rules are, but, in Illinois, a player has to have 14 practices (I think?) before he can play in the game. Assuming there is a similar rule in Wisconsin, this kid isn't going to play right away anyway. Cop out? Start replacing hard working kids with kids who don't buy in because you want him so you can pump up your ego with winning and let me know how long you have a team willing to do what it takes. What are you talking about? Ego? The primary job of a varsity HFC is to put the best players on the field. It's dumb to sit a good kid who is a great athlete simply because he didn't do the summer stuff, which he apparently didn't need to do anyway. Honestly, it's attitudes like this that are one of the big reasons kids aren't going out for football as much anymore.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 7:38:54 GMT -6
@grad17 never lets an opportunity go by - even if he has to create one - to trash those in the profession he has chosen.
This profession is no different than any other profession. Nice post!
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Post by 19delta on Aug 12, 2018 7:01:54 GMT -6
I didn't see any post here that indicates that the poster hates football. Which ones looked that way to you? lot of coaches looking for the same deal college and NFL players have gotten.. Lot more pay for lot less work, more job security. What are you talking about?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 11, 2018 16:53:00 GMT -6
Serious question.
Aren't FBS scholarships renewable yearly? So, if a player on scholarship isn't getting it done (by whatever that metric is), the scholarship can be taken away? Isn't that how it works? So, why not just cut the kids who aren't performing? Why go through this painful process of beating the crap out of kids in order to make them quit?
I get it that FBS coaches don't want to get the reputation that they will take away a scholarship. But isn't it better to have some people criticize your program for taking away scholarships than it is to engage in conduct that results in kids being emotionally and physically abused? Or even dying?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 11, 2018 14:10:11 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Aug 10, 2018 10:48:39 GMT -6
wiscoach Do you typically let kids come out late i.e. after practice has started? If this kid was a 5-9 WR who runs 5.0 would you let him on the team? I don't know about a WR but with linemen we had a "look up" rule. If a kid wanted to come up late, if I had to crank my neck back to look up into his eyes, I wanted to take him. I've never worked anywhere that had a hard and fast cut-off for when kids couldn't come out. Generally speaking, it was always the first game. And that was mostly due to the fact that if a kid came out after the first game, it would be 3 weeks before that kid would be eligible to play (before he could get his 14 practices in).
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 21:36:43 GMT -6
How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. Pretty sure that's how TO (and countless others) became what he is. What TO became was a HOFer.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 21:00:16 GMT -6
You still don't get it. The group he has is pretty good already. They have worked hard, now a slapick comes in and knows he is the best player but doesn't do feces going to come in. You may gain one but you may lose a lot. Yes, he may make a difference in many ways and they may not be good. I always left it up to the kids, I let them talk it over and vote. Then of course there is make up conditioning and I always may that tough, hills, tire flips and pushes plus whatever else. If the kid complains they there is the door. You dance with the one you brought. Slapdick? According to wiscoach, this kid is one of the best high school athletes in the state and has D1 offers in other sports. And he hasn't said anything about the kid being a cancer. That doesn't sound like slapdick to me. Letting the kids decide is a cop-out. You are the coach. The coach gets paid to make the tough decisions. Although, in this case, it should not be a tough decision at all. And, I don't know what the Wisconsin rules are, but, in Illinois, a player has to have 14 practices (I think?) before he can play in the game. Assuming there is a similar rule in Wisconsin, this kid isn't going to play right away anyway.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 20:22:06 GMT -6
How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift. All your points here are correct. Every one of them. But, I am coaching for the next year also. If a player knows he can miss everything and just show up with no penalty, you will doom your program.Make decisions based on the program, the current season, the upcoming game. In that order. And I am not saying the kid shouldn't be on the team. There is a way to get all of it. If that player is just a guy, he's not going to play if he doesn't do anything in the summer. He most likely won't be one of the best 11 players.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 20:17:34 GMT -6
What other measuring stick is there other than being the best player at each position? If that is the case, then every team in America has 22 or at least 11 players on their team that are at the top of the measuring stick. So, then what is the measuring stick? If you don't start the best 11 players, whom do you start instead? Look...the purpose of the summer is to get kids bigger, faster, and stronger. More times than not, the kids who put the work in during the summer are going to end up being the best players. But, on occasion, some of us have the great fortune to see a real, live unicorn. And when we have that opportunity, we need to recognize how special it is. I saw a unicorn once. This particular specimen was 6'1" and 210lbs. Didn't lift a weight all summer and came into two-a-days with a 33" VJ and a 4.6 40. He rushed for over 2,500 yards his junior and senior year and that was with missing the final 5 games of his junior year with a broken leg. Ended up being a PWO at Illinois and would have got a scholarship if Ron Turner hadn't been fired.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 20:01:27 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? It is definitely a slippery slope, because as silkyice mentions, there is a real danger to the program when the measuring stick is being the best player at your position. It can quickly bring down a program. Sure, professional coaches can see a difference in these situations, but not all 14/15 year olds can. I have to tell you wiscoach while obviously it is tantalizing, I think some serious downsides to having him join exist. What other measuring stick is there other than being the best player at each position?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 19:55:04 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is? So your starting 11 shouldn’t work out or condition? Isnt the point for each player to be their best? You aren’t just trying to start or be the best at your school, you are trying to beat other schools, and, if you want to play college, you are in competition with every player in the country. How is making the kid do bear crawls after practice or whatever going to make him a better athlete? That ship has sailed. He missed the summer. There is no "make up" for that. That's two months of work. When's the first game? A week or two? if this kid is as good as wiscoach says he is, then the coaching staff and the players should get down on their knees, shout a collective "Hallelujah" and give thanks to the football gods for such a generous gift.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 9, 2018 18:43:15 GMT -6
Why should a kid have to make up all the weights and conditioning if he is already the best player at the position, assuming that he is?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 8, 2018 10:18:06 GMT -6
Is don't lie when asked a question really a coaching advice or tactic though? I mean, I kinda thought that was common sense/morality. Is this where we are that we need to remind people not to lie? There are certainly some situations in which honesty is definitely not the best policy. If my wife asks me, "Do I look fat in this?", the answer will always be "No", regardless of how she looks. I think this entire thread can be boiled down to the most practical reason why lying is wrong. If you lie, you might get caught. And then you are either going to get caught in a lie and have to clumsily walk it back or even apologize OR you will have to tell more lies to cover for the initial lie. So yes, lying (or at least telling a lie like the one Meyer told) is immoral and unethical. But, from a PR perspective, there are very practical reasons why public figures should not lie.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 6, 2018 18:54:40 GMT -6
The other issue with lying is that reporters typically aren't going to ask questions to which they don't already have the answer.The lesson should be, if a coach gets asked a question like this, it's not going to do any good to lie because the person asking the question already knows.
I don't think that this situation is particularly relevent to high school coaches. With that being said, I think there is a lot to be said for practicing being "on message" when talking to the media. Coaches should be prepared to answer a non-football question and should have some kind of standard, vague, non-committal response ready for those occasions.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 5, 2018 9:17:01 GMT -6
I would have to imagine that someone within the OSU empire knew that this story was in the pipeline. I can't believe that someone from the PR department didn't give Meyer a head's up..."Hey Coach, you might get asked a question about Zach Smith's history of domestic abuse. If you get asked that question, you need to direct all comments to the athletic department." I think the bigger question is, why would Meyer (or ANY highly successful coach) want to have someone like this on his staff? Smith was a wide receiver coach or something? And followed Meyer to tOSU from Florida? There are tens of thousands of good coaches who don't beat their wives who would jump at the chance to work for Meyer. Why would a successful head coach want to drag around a relatively insignificant guy who has so much bad history? I get that Smith was something of tOSU royalty but did Meyer really need that, coming in? I don't think so. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. From a purely selfish viewpoint, what upsides were there to Meyer keeping Smith on staff all these years that cancelled out all of Smith's considerable downsides? Coaching is who you know...unfortunately Yes. I get that. Initially, Meyer probably needed whatever talent, skill, or knowledge Smith could provide. But, as Meyer's star rose, the necessity of keeping a guy like Smith around had to be significantly diminished. Again...we are not talking about some football guru or even an offensive or defensive coordinator. We are talking about a wide receivers coach. From my position, it looks like Smith got WAY more out of the relationship than Meyer ever did. That's what doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 5, 2018 8:50:34 GMT -6
I would have to imagine that someone within the OSU empire knew that this story was in the pipeline. I can't believe that someone from the PR department didn't give Meyer a head's up..."Hey Coach, you might get asked a question about Zach Smith's history of domestic abuse. If you get asked that question, you need to direct all comments to the athletic department."
I think the bigger question is, why would Meyer (or ANY highly successful coach) want to have someone like this on his staff? Smith was a wide receiver coach or something? And followed Meyer to tOSU from Florida? There are tens of thousands of good coaches who don't beat their wives who would jump at the chance to work for Meyer. Why would a successful head coach want to drag around a relatively insignificant guy who has so much bad history? I get that Smith was something of tOSU royalty but did Meyer really need that, coming in? I don't think so.
That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. From a purely selfish viewpoint, what upsides were there to Meyer keeping Smith on staff all these years that cancelled out all of Smith's considerable downsides?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 4, 2018 20:31:58 GMT -6
Those were the rules that were set for the period. But yet 11 vs 11? Yeah, that makes sense. So you have 6 gaps to run, and they have 11 guys to defend that. No wonder you hated that drill. The HC was a good guy from whom I learned a ton of football. But I never quite understood what that purpose of this drill was, other than to let the DC puff out his chest.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 4, 2018 20:28:58 GMT -6
Those were the rules that were set for the period. How was the team's goal line defense that year? We were really good against teams that lined up in dub tight, full-house backfield and ran between the tackles 4 plays in a row!
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Post by 19delta on Aug 4, 2018 18:27:43 GMT -6
About 15 years ago, I was an OC. We used to do a goal-line period from the 5-yard line. We would do 3 series. If offense scored twice, defense did pushups. If defense stopped offense twice, offense did push-ups. We (offense) got really good at doing push-ups that year. That's because we could not call any pass plays or run the ball outside. And, of course, the defense knew it. So, we would call the play, break the huddle, and look at 11 dudes within 3 yards of the ball just frothing at the mouth. They would just tee off on us and then would whoop and holler like they just won the lottery. DC would be standing in the back of the endzone talking sh1t about how his defense was kicking the offense's butt. After the first time, I complained vociferously to the HC about how unrealistic the drill was. HC didn't want to hear it. He basically said something to the effect of, "They have 11 guys just like you. If your guys block the play right, it doesn't matter what the defense is doing." So, I was like, "whatever". So, whenever we did that drill the rest of the year, I would tell the offense, "Ok guys...let's get this over with. We are going to run FB dive 12 times in a row. After you get the handoff, just get to the ground as fast as you can and protect yourself". We did manage to get the defense to jump offsides several times. And of course, when we did, we whooped and hollered like we just won the lottery! Why couldn’t you throw or run outside? Those were the rules that were set for the period.
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Post by 19delta on Aug 4, 2018 17:09:15 GMT -6
About 15 years ago, I was an OC. We used to do a goal-line period from the 5-yard line. We would do 3 series. If offense scored twice, defense did pushups. If defense stopped offense twice, offense did push-ups. We (offense) got really good at doing push-ups that year. That's because we could not call any pass plays or run the ball outside. And, of course, the defense knew it. So, we would call the play, break the huddle, and look at 11 dudes within 3 yards of the ball just frothing at the mouth. They would just tee off on us and then would whoop and holler like they just won the lottery. DC would be standing in the back of the endzone talking sh1t about how his defense was kicking the offense's butt. After the first time, I complained vociferously to the HC about how unrealistic the drill was. HC didn't want to hear it. He basically said something to the effect of, "They have 11 guys just like you. If your guys block the play right, it doesn't matter what the defense is doing." So, I was like, "whatever". So, whenever we did that drill the rest of the year, I would tell the offense, "Ok guys...let's get this over with. We are going to run FB dive 12 times in a row. After you get the handoff, just get to the ground as fast as you can and protect yourself". We did manage to get the defense to jump offsides several times. And of course, when we did, we whooped and hollered like we just won the lottery!
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2018 17:52:35 GMT -6
I wonder if there are less jucos playing football in the east because there are so many D3 football schools their? I think it has a lot more to do with funding. Football is an expensive sport for cash-strapped JUCOs.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2018 12:29:58 GMT -6
Up until relatively recently, we had quite a few JUCOs in Illinois that played football but we are down to just one, College of DuPage.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 31, 2018 2:50:22 GMT -6
The recruiting pitch is: how many kids they put DI and/or who received scholarships. Also, they're selling exposure of being on Netflix, exposure of being a winning team in a very good conference and a team that finished very highly ranked. Lastly, they do offer scholarship money, dorms, and a meal plan... Questions Kids getting a lot of D1 offers: it said ICC has lost and lost badly for 3 decades, how did it switch so abruptly from that to this? I'm guessing $$$ is behind everything. Scholarship $, dorms, meal plan: Do other schools not offer the same? Does make sense that D1 schools funnel all the kids to one school. Just curious how they decide which school they're all sending them to. Maybe they have a D1 dropout forum somewhere and they communicate there. In the first or second episode of Season 3, there was a scene with the president of the school and he basically said that a decision was made by the leadership of ICC to do whatever was necessary to build a winning football program. That included lobbying to eliminate rules limiting the number of out-of-state players, bringing in a HFC who already had the reputation of being one of the best JUCO recruiters in the country, and investing heavily in improving the facilities. It was pretty evident that ICC's success didn't come from out of nowhere. I would imagine that where they are now is exactly what the school leadership envisioned when they started this process after the 2015 season.
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Post by 19delta on Jul 27, 2018 7:29:26 GMT -6
I used to think Jim Harbaugh was an a$%hole. Just the way he looked on the sideline and stuff. Never met him but just had that jerky look. The Amazon Series has totally changed my mind. He is 180 from what I thought, I still don't like Mich, but Jimbo is stand up... I don't think Harbaugh is an a-hole. I do think he is nuts, though.
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