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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 22:01:43 GMT -6
I guess that is where we disagree. Wow... that is really surprising. I mean, if we are in a place where playing a sport is considered doing the coach a favor, I just don't know. Shouldn't all relationships be mutually beneficial?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 21:33:58 GMT -6
Unfortunately this creates a very slippery slope for team sports. What one player may deem as important, another may think something else. Again, I understand the player's decision, but let me pose this to coaches for thought...would anyone's opinion change if a player decided that after his team was eliminated from playoff contention that he was going to work after school instead of finishing the year out because he wanted to make some money? How about if that particular player was a HS junior and was planning to come back to play as a Senior? I don't believe we'll get there, but it creates a slippery slope that I hope we won't have to worry about. So you are saying that he isn't going to lift? He's just going to work and come out for football the following August? Unless the kid is REALLY good, he's probably going to get beat out. So what's the problem?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 20:33:55 GMT -6
Who's running practice? Coaching in the weightroom? Designing the offense, defense, and special teams? Determining the depth chart? Calling the plays on Friday nights? Who is RUNNING in practice. Who is hitting and getting hit in practice, who is LIFTING the weights. Who is SPOTTING me while I lift those weights. Who is EXECUTING the offense, defense and special teams. Who is trying to move up the depth chart. Who is PLAYING on Friday nights? I understand what you are trying to convey, I just don't think that being a part of a team and finishing the season is somehow doing the coach a favor. I guess that is where we disagree.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 20:15:42 GMT -6
Eh...I'm not sure what the data shows. The vast majority of kids who played high school football have grown up to be productive adults and even have time to argue on the Internet passionately with people they have never met! (or maybe that is yet another sign of CTE... ). But, I digress... I just think that it isn't a coach-centered world we live in anymore. If coaches want the best efforts of kids, they had better be willing to give those kids their best efforts. And when those best efforts aren't good enough (for whatever reason), kids who have other better opportunities shouldn't be faulted for pursuing them. I wasn't aware that participating in a team sport was somehow a coach-centered activity... Who's running practice? Coaching in the weightroom? Designing the offense, defense, and special teams? Determining the depth chart? Calling the plays on Friday nights?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 19:41:47 GMT -6
"Meaningless" is a subjective term, of course. With that being said, if I was a HFC and was sitting at 2-5 Week 7 and I had 2 stud wrestlers on the team come up to me and say, "hey coach...I'm sorry but wrestling season starts in 3 weeks and I don't want to get hurt and I want to get ready for wrestling", who am I to argue? Seriously...what should I tell those guys? As HFC, my season is over. I get a week or so off before the weight room starts up but I am home every Friday night and I don't have anything seriously competitive for another 9 months. Those two kids, on the other hand, are going to be on the mat (without any teammates to help them, BTW) in less than a month. In that case, who is truly being "selfish"? Very slippery slope coach... many a 2-5 team knows they will be 2-5, 3-4 etc before you flip the calendar to September. Why play at all? In fact, since you mention doing whats best for the kids...might as well through out the nuclear option and say that based on the mounting data and research on subconcussive brain injury and football.... Do I need to finish the sentence? Eh...I'm not sure what the data shows. The vast majority of kids who played high school football have grown up to be productive adults and even have time to argue on the Internet passionately with people they have never met! (or maybe that is yet another sign of CTE... ). But, I digress... I just think that it isn't a coach-centered world we live in anymore. If coaches want the best efforts of kids, they had better be willing to give those kids their best efforts. And when those best efforts aren't good enough (for whatever reason), kids who have other better opportunities shouldn't be faulted for pursuing them.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 19:12:14 GMT -6
Point is, the football coaches had their shot and it didn't get done. For whatever reason. Doesn't really matter. Why do you think that those two wrestlers owe the football team another two meaningless weeks? After Week 7, what is best for those two kids is to start getting ready for wrestling. Don't you want what is best for the kids? Wow..coach, never thought I would see you of all people saying "a coach didn't get it done" and that games are meaningless if a team is not making the playoffs.... "Meaningless" is a subjective term, of course. With that being said, if I was a HFC and was sitting at 2-5 Week 7 and I had 2 stud wrestlers on the team come up to me and say, "hey coach...I'm sorry but wrestling season starts in 3 weeks and I don't want to get hurt and I want to get ready for wrestling", who am I to argue? Seriously...what should I tell those guys? As HFC, my season is over. I get a week or so off before the weight room starts up but I am home every Friday night and I don't have anything seriously competitive for another 9 months. Those two kids, on the other hand, are going to be on the mat (without any teammates to help them, BTW) in less than a month. In that case, who is truly being "selfish"?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 18:54:54 GMT -6
Not a perfect analogy but sonewhat similar, we had a kid on or football team this year that was just a backup and special teams type of football player, but is a defending state champion wrestler. I don't know if he'll be D1 or not, but he did well enough last weekend at a tournament to achieve all American status, so I'm guessing he'll have opportunities. He kept having stingers during the season, like at least once a week for the last 8 weeks or so. We had coversations as a staff where we all just assumed that sooner or later we were going to show up on a Monday and the kid would tell us he was quitting to make sure he was healthy for the start of wrestling season, and nobody on staff would have blamed him. Kid never quit the team, and I respect his toughness and commitment level, but I absolutely wouldn't have thought any lesser of him if he had. I can guarantee you that your opinion would put you in the vast minority of HS coaches. Good for you guys!
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 18:53:28 GMT -6
So you had a D-I athlete on your football team and you couldn't make the playoffs? Sorry, dude...I'm with the kids who quit the team on this one. If I was their coach would I be angry that they quit? Sure. But what credibility do I have to stand on? I'm a high school football coach with a D-I athlete and I couldn't make the playoffs. No one is going to feel sorry for me. That kid needs to do what's best for him. I surely didn't. Coach..a few things 1) You do realize that opponents can have D1 athletes as well correct? Having one D1 athlete does not guarantee success. 2) The athlete funkfriss was describing was a D1 WRESTLER. The weight classes start at 125 and 9 out of 10 are under 200lbs. It is very plausible that you could have a dominant D1 Wrestler be a good HS football player but hardly a dominant force on Friday nights. Point is, the football coaches had their shot and it didn't get done. For whatever reason. Doesn't really matter. Why do you think that those two wrestlers owe the football team another two meaningless weeks? After Week 7, what is best for those two kids is to start getting ready for wrestling. Don't you want what is best for the kids?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 18:20:10 GMT -6
Couple thoughts... First, for those of you saying a bowl game is meaningless I question where our perception of sports has gone. I never played in a meaningless game and I've never coached in a meaningless game. Just because a game has no implication for playoffs or no other perceived reward it is meaningless? Sorry guys, I'm not following that logic. Second, I'll give you a somewhat comparable HS scenario that happened years ago and see how this sits with you all. We lost a close week 7 game which put us out of the playoffs. So we were playing two "meaningless" games. Two of our better players quit so they wouldn't get hurt before wrestling season. Both were great wrestlers who had legitimate shots at State and chances to wrestle in college (one wrestled at a big D1 school). You support their decision as a HS coach? I would be interested to see what many of the coaches here think about that 2nd paragraph. I think it is a pretty fair analogy to the fournette and Mccaffrey situations. The only difference may be the presence of an injury. I don't know about McCaffrey, but Fournette has been nursing an ankle injury the entire year. So you had a D-I athlete on your football team and you couldn't make the playoffs? Sorry, dude...I'm with the kids who quit the team on this one. If I was their coach would I be angry that they quit? Sure. But what credibility do I have to stand on? I'm a high school football coach with a D-I athlete and I couldn't make the playoffs. No one is going to feel sorry for me. That kid needs to do what's best for him. I surely didn't.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 17:35:30 GMT -6
So then LSU shouldn't miss a beat without Fournette in the bowl game. Honestly? Probably not. It is probably the reason that those here in this region are very supportive of the decision. This is why I have to imagine that the coaches at LSU and Stanford are supporting Fournette and McCaffrey. What's ultimately more important? Winning a bowl game or getting your underclassmen another couple weeks of practice and a game against a worthy opponent? Wouldn't most coaches take the extra 6 weeks of practice? Know what you have going into spring football?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 17:31:23 GMT -6
I don't think either one of these kids have low character at all. By all accounts, they are hardworking, honest, and have been good citizens. Fair enough. I don't doubt they are good citizens but this decision in my opinion is low character I do agree that it is perhaps a short-sighted decision. But I don't think it shows low character. I don't think that is the right adjective.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 17:24:08 GMT -6
Really. His Backup Derrius Guice (Baton Rouge native) out performed Leonard in Total yards, Yards per carry, touchdowns, longest run while splitting carries with Fournette. He really had very little impact on any of the LSU wins. So then LSU shouldn't miss a beat without Fournette in the bowl game.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 17:07:56 GMT -6
Without Fournette and McCaffrey, there probably is no bowl game. Fournette had absolutely nothing to do with LSU's "success" this season. Nothing? Really?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 9:27:13 GMT -6
The 2 players opting out have had injuries this year and their draft stock is cemented right now....unless they get hurt. It's a business decision like you said. 99.9% of college players are not an automatic top 15 pick right now and most of the ones that are, are playing in the CFB playoff. Most of these possible future NFL players are banking on a good performance in a bowl game and the senior bowl to boost their draft chances. Those guys have to play. We will go round and round with this all day but you can't argue that it's a selfish decision. If you take the money out of it those guys play period. Their decision to opt out on their teammates is low character. I don't think either one of these kids have low character at all. By all accounts, they are hardworking, honest, and have been good citizens.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 9:18:12 GMT -6
I think those are entirely different circumstances. They are different circumstances but they are still related to each other. Essentially what these guys are saying is that for all the hard work someone else put in to help them get the opportunity to make that money means nothing to them and they throw their deuces up. Yes they are very talented and have both worked hard to get to where they are but they didn't do it alone. Without Fournette and McCaffrey, there probably is no bowl game.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 6:36:47 GMT -6
I have never been forced to make a decision with that much money on the line but let's call a spade a spade. These guys quit their teams at the end of the season and every one of us, more than likely, has had a kid quit on his team late and thought poorly of that kid. What about that lineman who has been busting his a$$ trying to win games and putting these guys in a position to make millions? They may be stand up guys in real life but this isn't a high character decision they made. I think those are entirely different circumstances.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 20, 2016 6:27:04 GMT -6
What about the guys on the team that have no shot to play after college? And want a shot at winning a bowl game. Getting to a bowl game isn't guaranteed (though there are 1,000 of them now). The other guys on the team have a better chance at winning if their "dude" is playing. Just throwing that out there. MaCaffery, et. al. could get hurt lifting or running during their "training". Just never know. Any guy who harbors ill will towards a high-profile teammate who chooses to opt out of a largely meaningless exhibition game is an a-hole. Those guys simply need to tell their stud, NFL-bound teammate "thank you" for getting them to the game.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 19, 2016 22:57:50 GMT -6
The market will take care of that. NFL teams won't be too concerned with these guys opting out of meaningless bowl games, but if a guy quits mid-season or during a championship run, that is a red flag to NFL organizations and will greatly affect a prospect's draft status. So then where is the line? Do we just arbitrarily say 'Bowl Game', as opposed to a guy on a 2-8 team dropping out of the team's 'meaningless' last game of the season? What factor for a GM differentiates bowl game as opposed to last regular season game? I agree that NFL teams will justify it in their minds, but in reality there is little difference. It's probably different for every player. Guys like Fournett and McCaffrey are going to be afforded a lot more wiggle room than Johnny TryHard from Mid Major State. This is only going to apply to the truly elite guys who have already earned the best draft position they can get. For guys like Fournett and McCaffrey, playing in the bowl game won't help them much but it could hurt them.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 19, 2016 19:09:42 GMT -6
So Christian McCaffrey and Leonard Fournette have decided to opt out of their bowl games to begin prep for the draft and avoid unnecessary injury risk. As coaches, what do you think about this? What kind of message, if any, does this send to HS players? Both of those guys have more than paid back any perceived "debt" they owe to their schools. Godspeed to both of them.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 14, 2016 8:42:20 GMT -6
Question I had was, what about the guys that continued to take the information from this guy? I get at that level, some guys will do anything to win, but how do you guys view the guys receiving the info? I mean, in coaching there are so many friendships between coaches, what if you find out a buddy of yours was receiving this and never said anything. What would you guys do if a buddy that was a coach from somewhere else, was getting info from someone on your staff or behind the scenes guy? Reminds me of a movie: Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: [after discovering Private Pyle's unlocked footlocker] Jesus H Christ. Private Pyle, why is your footlocker unlocked? Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, I don't know, sir. Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate, it is an unlocked footlocker! You know that don't you? Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, yes, sir. Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: If it wasn't for dickheads like you, there wouldn't be any thievery in this world, would there? Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, no, sir.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 14, 2016 5:52:20 GMT -6
Scumbag move for sure if he did it. Great way to ruin your life, guy is totally radioactive now. Besides career suicide he's managed to completely alienate everybody from the last 25 years of his life. What a clown. Yeah. Traitors and snitches don't have much of a future. Remember Eric Mangini? Is he still working in the NFL?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 14, 2016 5:50:33 GMT -6
My question is how did the radio guy get the gameplan? Says in the article that he had total access to locker rooms, training facility, meeting rooms, etc, etc.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 13, 2016 23:41:03 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Dec 10, 2016 17:42:39 GMT -6
HOOAH!
That is all...
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Post by 19delta on Dec 8, 2016 18:20:01 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Dec 7, 2016 21:06:25 GMT -6
19delta How good were those teams he was on? OK. His junior year, we were 7-4. He got his leg broke Week 9 and was done for the year. We lost in the 2nd round of the playoffs that year. Senior year, we were 10-1. Lost in the 2nd round again.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 7, 2016 20:14:09 GMT -6
Well, here is my 2 cents #1 I think it is divisive. I think a team needs to work together for a goal not against one another for a game shirt. If your top kids don't lift there is something wrong in your program. rewarding some soph that comes to everything, raises $$$ ,but is never going to see the field with a "good" shirt I don't think is going to help your team. We all have "that kid" don't we. #2 so your best kid misses a few lifts and this "super soph" wants that #..are you really going to give it to him...I think we have all made accommodations for that special kid #3 our basketball teams play 2-3 nights a week..Is a kid going to be penalized for not lifting after an away game when he gets home at 10pm and still has to do homework So, how do you assign uniform #'s? Do the best kids get rewarded even if they weren't around? Coaches love to teach "life skills"... at least they say that. Shouldn't one of those lessons be that you earn things, you're not given them? I understand where you're coming from, but if a uniform number is going to cause a rift in your team aren't you screwed anyway. How do you change the culture of a program if you can't reward kids who are working hard? The most talented kids can't be catered to. That creates a team with division in it. Isn't that one way to get kids to want to come and lift? I guess it depends on your definition of "best kids". 15 years ago, we had an all-State RB. Rushed for almost 3,000 yards his junior and senior year. Kid was a preferred walk-on at a Big 10 school. Pretty good for coming out of a tiny, rural high school program. Also played basketball and ran track. Kid was 6-1, 200lbs, and ran a 4.7 40 (FAT). Best high school football player I ever coached. Anyway, the kid didn't lift. He just didn't like lifting weights. His family owned and operated a huge hog farm and he was a big part of the family business. And, without spending any time in our weight room, I knew he could still outsquat and outbench anyone on our team. Genetic freak...he definitely won the Lucky DNA Lottery. And he was a great kid. Terrific student, class president, good citizen, prom king...all that stuff. He worked his a$$ off during the football season but when the season was over, he was done. That was it. We literally wouldn't see him until football started the following summer. There was no way in H E L L that we were going to take his jersey # away and give it to some pimply-faced sophomore who improved his bench press from 95lbs to 115lbs over the summer!
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Post by 19delta on Dec 7, 2016 12:20:24 GMT -6
For those of you guys who do something like this, are there any exceptions? For example, a kid'd parents are divorced and he has to go and spend the summer with the non-custodial parent.
In those cases, are you still holding the kid's feet to the fire? Or are there some "loopholes" you build in for these kinds of situations?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 7, 2016 12:16:25 GMT -6
I have been doing this for awhile now and players know what to expect. I did have a parent contact me two years about their Sr. son not getting the number that was on his varsity jacket and it would have cost $100 or so to fix. Well workouts were free so there you go I think that as long as the parents and the kids know in advance that they could lose a number if they don't meet a minimum number of weight room sessions, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing here. The tough thing for a lot of coaches would be sticking to their guns. For example, you have a senior who is a good kid and a player you are counting on to contribute but kind of slacked off in the weight room. A lot of coaches would find an excuse to give a kid like that a mulligan and let him keep his jersey number. Just curious, but what was this player's excuse for not getting in the weight room? When you explained to his parents why he had lost his number, what did they say?
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Post by 19delta on Dec 5, 2016 19:31:08 GMT -6
Looking it up, Al Groh had 5 winning years out of 9 years (and 5 out of his first 7), including 2 9 win years London's the only coach since the 80s to have a losing record there (Working off the assumption that it's too early to judge mendenhall's tenure 4 head coaches since 1982 probably makes that one of the least turned over Power Five jobs Agreed. However, I just don't remember Virginia ever really being a part of the national conversation about the elite programs, at least compared to Florida/Florida State/Georgia/LSU/Alabama/Auburn/South Carolina/Clemson/etc, etc. Are they traditionally a Top 25 team?
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