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Post by tripsclosed on Nov 20, 2023 15:13:03 GMT -6
What are some new things, if any, you saw from opposing offenses or defenses this year? Were they any good at it/did it cause you any issues?
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Post by realdawg on Nov 20, 2023 15:55:51 GMT -6
Seeing more and more duo this year than in the past for sure. Still only 1 team really good at it. But seeing it more.
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 20, 2023 16:06:40 GMT -6
I coach in the top classification in SC and have for the last 20 years. Most everyone is 10 gun personnel, with some type of 'heavy/jumbo/Single wing' for short yardage/goal line. A couple go 11 personnel or 20 personnel. There is only 1 Wing T team. There is one that will go 12 personnel.
Other than the Wing T team, we haven't played a mostly under center team since about 2009/2010 Double Wing team.
Usually going under center is a dead give a way for QB sneak.
The last time we saw a team that showed any type of Pro I type look was in 2017, and it was their 'change of pace' offense.
The offenses in SC at our level are as exciting as a bowl of milk.
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 20, 2023 16:08:06 GMT -6
Seeing more and more duo this year than in the past for sure. Still only 1 team really good at it. But seeing it more. what is duo? is that I/S but 'just stay on the double'  ? |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 20, 2023 16:08:31 GMT -6
Seeing more and more duo this year than in the past for sure. Still only 1 team really good at it. But seeing it more. what is duo? is that I/S but 'just stay on the double' ? not trying to derail this thread..... sorry |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 20, 2023 16:54:11 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up.
I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam.
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Post by realdawg on Nov 20, 2023 17:21:57 GMT -6
The easiest way I know to explain it is power with no puller. Duo right. OL blocks left. RB reads playside LB. He fits the open gap. Bounce it. He scrapes. Bang it up in there.
Most of the time we see it, it is formationed to have someone kick out the end man. Though you could read the EMLOS.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 20, 2023 18:03:25 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. This is followed closely by taking a knee in gun for me. But yes, snapping the ball 5yds backwards to gain 6inches has always been a mystifying choice to me. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 20, 2023 18:08:07 GMT -6
I coach in the top classification in SC and have for the last 20 years. Most everyone is 10 gun personnel, with some type of 'heavy/jumbo/Single wing' for short yardage/goal line. A couple go 11 personnel or 20 personnel. There is only 1 Wing T team. There is one that will go 12 personnel. Other than the Wing T team, we haven't played a mostly under center team since about 2009/2010 Double Wing team. Usually going under center is a dead give a way for QB sneak. The last time we saw a team that showed any type of Pro I type look was in 2017, and it was their 'change of pace' offense. The offenses in SC at our level are as exciting as a bowl of milk. Meanwhile, 5 of the 6 finalists in the Illinois state championships 1A-3A are UC wing-t/flexbone teams. I'm fairly certain all 5 beat shotgun spread teams in the semis. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Nov 20, 2023 18:20:15 GMT -6
I coach in the top classification in SC and have for the last 20 years. Most everyone is 10 gun personnel, with some type of 'heavy/jumbo/Single wing' for short yardage/goal line. A couple go 11 personnel or 20 personnel. There is only 1 Wing T team. There is one that will go 12 personnel. Other than the Wing T team, we haven't played a mostly under center team since about 2009/2010 Double Wing team. Usually going under center is a dead give a way for QB sneak. The last time we saw a team that showed any type of Pro I type look was in 2017, and it was their 'change of pace' offense. The offenses in SC at our level are as exciting as a bowl of milk. Meanwhile, 5 of the 6 finalists in the Illinois state championships 1A-3A are UC wing-t/flexbone teams. I'm fairly certain all 5 beat shotgun spread teams in the semis. lower levels have more variance. Last week in 4A, there was a game that had a spread team beat another team 68-53.... the losing team had RB go for bout 360 yards and 8 IDs.... I'm not sure what that losing team did feature offensively. Back home in 2A a school that has multiple state championships that did a lot of damage with Wing Bone/Wish Bone has gone 'spread'..... and basically run the same option/power offense they have run for the last 30 years..... The reason being they were getting poached by other teams b/c the college recruiters told a QB that 'they didn't throw the ball enough' |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 20, 2023 18:46:13 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. This is followed closely by taking a knee in gun for me. But yes, snapping the ball 5yds backwards to gain 6inches has always been a mystifying choice to me. In my opinion, Taking a knee from the shotgun is a much safer play. As long as you do it right. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 20, 2023 18:51:24 GMT -6
This is followed closely by taking a knee in gun for me. But yes, snapping the ball 5yds backwards to gain 6inches has always been a mystifying choice to me. In my opinion, Taking a knee from the shotgun is a much safer play. As long as you do it right. How is it safer? If you tell the refs you're taking a knee they (at least in Illinois) tell the other team to lay off. |
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Post by agap on Nov 20, 2023 19:54:58 GMT -6
The majority of the semifinal teams in MN were 22/32 P all the way from 1A to 6A. 4 of them were Power-T.
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 20, 2023 22:30:40 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. Or you can have the RB get the snap. |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2023 6:07:48 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. Or you can have the RB get the snap. The end result is typically the same. Just get under center! |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 21, 2023 7:28:06 GMT -6
In my opinion, Taking a knee from the shotgun is a much safer play. As long as you do it right. How is it safer? If you tell the refs you're taking a knee they (at least in Illinois) tell the other team to lay off. Not physically safer. Just saying that if you fumble the snap under center the ball is right there. Either team could recover it. If you fumble a shotgun snap, you have time to recover. You also have to line up correctly and have someone behind the qb in gun snap in case of a long snap. If you are an under center team, stay under center. If you are a gun team, stay in gun. If I did both, I would choose to be in the gun to take a knee. What to me is risky, is being 100% gun and then going under center to take a knee in a one score game. |
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Post by wolverine55 on Nov 21, 2023 8:07:07 GMT -6
For us, the "new stuff" we had to defend was the return to heavy personnel. This was also due to a change in schedule as Iowa rotates every two years. We saw Flexbone, Double TE Power I (twice), shotgun 3-back (twice), and then a plethora of shotgun 21 personnel in our district play. Both of the double TE Power I teams, one of the 3-back teams, and the Flexbone team had all been some form of spread within the last 1-3 years.
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Post by MICoach on Nov 21, 2023 8:59:36 GMT -6
For us, the "new stuff" we had to defend was the return to heavy personnel. This was also due to a change in schedule as Iowa rotates every two years. We saw Flexbone, Double TE Power I (twice), shotgun 3-back (twice), and then a plethora of shotgun 21 personnel in our district play. Both of the double TE Power I teams, one of the 3-back teams, and the Flexbone team had all been some form of spread within the last 1-3 years. There was a similar trend in my area. Several teams we played had 32/31 personnel packages...some were better at it than others. Naturally the best teams were able to run a variety of plays out of those personnel groupings. We also played several teams who ran gap scheme plays with two lead pullers (so kick, lead, and then a second lead puller)...we'd see this here and there in the past but I feel like we saw this with around half of our opponents this year. |
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lws55
Sophomore Member
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Post by lws55 on Nov 21, 2023 9:40:32 GMT -6
Meanwhile, 5 of the 6 finalists in the Illinois state championships 1A-3A are UC wing-t/flexbone teams. I'm fairly certain all 5 beat shotgun spread teams in the semis. lower levels have more variance. Last week in 4A, there was a game that had a spread team beat another team 68-53.... the losing team had RB go for bout 360 yards and 8 IDs.... I'm not sure what that losing team did feature offensively. Back home in 2A a school that has multiple state championships that did a lot of damage with Wing Bone/Wish Bone has gone 'spread'..... and basically run the same option/power offense they have run for the last 30 years..... The reason being they were getting poached by other teams b/c the college recruiters told a QB that 'they didn't throw the ball enough' The losing team is 11/21 personal (H back mostly/ some TE) they run the basics. Power, Counter, IZ and OZ. They had a nasty offensive line that took pride in mauling people and probably the top RB in the state. |
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Post by Coach.A on Nov 21, 2023 9:41:25 GMT -6
I coach in the top classification in SC and have for the last 20 years. Most everyone is 10 gun personnel, with some type of 'heavy/jumbo/Single wing' for short yardage/goal line. A couple go 11 personnel or 20 personnel. There is only 1 Wing T team. There is one that will go 12 personnel. Other than the Wing T team, we haven't played a mostly under center team since about 2009/2010 Double Wing team. Usually going under center is a dead give a way for QB sneak. The last time we saw a team that showed any type of Pro I type look was in 2017, and it was their 'change of pace' offense. The offenses in SC at our level are as exciting as a bowl of milk. Meanwhile, 5 of the 6 finalists in the Illinois state championships 1A-3A are UC wing-t/flexbone teams. I'm fairly certain all 5 beat shotgun spread teams in the semis. A bad weather Friday during playoffs can really impact the types of teams that advance. I make this comment in FAVOR of traditional under center offenses. There's a reason why under center "run first" offenses are more common in areas with harsh climates. We made the switch to Wing-T after we had a very talented spread team lose in the playoffs to an inferior opponent. The game was played in heavy sleet and high winds. After that game, our staff made the decision to never again leave our fate up to mother nature. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 21, 2023 9:55:37 GMT -6
Or you can have the RB get the snap. The end result is typically the same. Just get under center! But if that's the only part of your offense you do under center, then: - Either:
- you don't practice it much, and are therefore more likely to misexecute, or
- you spend too much practice time on plays that won't be used often.
- It's a tell. You may not care, thinking that even if everyone in the house knows it's coming, you ought to be able to get the yard/foot/inch you need, and that the other team can't be sure you don't have a play action pass you've never shown. But still.
Also, there are fewer "moving parts" to a play where the ball's snapped directly to the runner.
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Post by raider92 on Nov 21, 2023 10:02:14 GMT -6
How is it safer? If you tell the refs you're taking a knee they (at least in Illinois) tell the other team to lay off. Not physically safer. Just saying that if you fumble the snap under center the ball is right there. Either team could recover it. If you fumble a shotgun snap, you have time to recover. You also have to line up correctly and have someone behind the qb in gun snap in case of a long snap. If you are an under center team, stay under center. If you are a gun team, stay in gun. If I did both, I would choose to be in the gun to take a knee. What to me is risky, is being 100% gun and then going under center to take a knee in a one score game. This is also why it drives me nuts when officials throw a hissy fit and force our guys to lay off on a kneel down. If a spread team is taking their very first UC snap of the game to kneel it down we should at least be able to come off the ball and ensure that they actually get the snap secured. Alas, most officials here act like you've committed a war crime by touching anyone when they're kneeling it |
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Post by Defcord on Nov 21, 2023 10:31:04 GMT -6
Not physically safer. Just saying that if you fumble the snap under center the ball is right there. Either team could recover it. If you fumble a shotgun snap, you have time to recover. You also have to line up correctly and have someone behind the qb in gun snap in case of a long snap. If you are an under center team, stay under center. If you are a gun team, stay in gun. If I did both, I would choose to be in the gun to take a knee. What to me is risky, is being 100% gun and then going under center to take a knee in a one score game. This is also why it drives me nuts when officials throw a hissy fit and force our guys to lay off on a kneel down. If a spread team is taking their very first UC snap of the game to kneel it down we should at least be able to come off the ball and ensure that they actually get the snap secured. Alas, most officials here act like you've committed a war crime by touching anyone when they're kneeling it If it's a one score game we are putting four guys on the center with pressure, pressuring the other seven and trying to get the ball back. If it's more than a one score game, than we will back off and shake their hands. It's stupid (in my mind) in a one score game to just let the other team kneel it. |
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Post by coachscdub on Nov 21, 2023 11:02:34 GMT -6
Maybe not new, but a weird one we saw in our last game, the Defense vs our 11P sets would play Man-DBL Free. Not really 2-Man but could be construed as that via this description.
4-Down front, 2-Backers in the box.
CB's manned on #1
Nickle manned on #2.
Backers manned on #3.
Both Safeties sitting on/inside the hash just reading the QB/Backfield. Free fitters off the edge in the run, or Hole/Robbers in the pass game.
We didn't release our TE much in the pass game so that Backer really just lived in the box, similarly with the RB and his backer.
They would also play Cloud/Trap to the single side with that man look to the field. They did some good Trap/Cat stuff to add in some gimmicks. And then they hammered us with Firezone blitzes.
Again nothing super new, but that Cover 20ish look was weird to see.
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Post by ahall005 on Nov 21, 2023 11:09:48 GMT -6
One thing that was new this year that I hadn't seen much of is We played a lot of teams that did unbalanced formations with a split end covering a TE or with two split ends and one of them being covered.
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Post by fantom on Nov 21, 2023 12:11:36 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. As a DC I always felt that the offense did us a favor by going gun in short yardage. Besides giving the RB a running start , being UC presents the threat of QB sneak. Taking away that threat allows us to open up the defense a little. There's nothing more embarrassing than giving up an easy TD on a predictable, simple play. No play is more simple than a QB sneak. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 21, 2023 13:24:27 GMT -6
Maybe not new, but a weird one we saw in our last game, the Defense vs our 11P sets would play Man-DBL Free. Not really 2-Man but could be construed as that via this description. 4-Down front, 2-Backers in the box. CB's manned on #1 Nickle manned on #2. Backers manned on #3. Both Safeties sitting on/inside the hash just reading the QB/Backfield. Free fitters off the edge in the run, or Hole/Robbers in the pass game. We didn't release our TE much in the pass game so that Backer really just lived in the box, similarly with the RB and his backer. They would also play Cloud/Trap to the single side with that man look to the field. They did some good Trap/Cat stuff to add in some gimmicks. And then they hammered us with Firezone blitzes. Again nothing super new, but that Cover 20ish look was weird to see. Sound like it could a "Fox" type of coverage where the 2 safeties both key the h back (or RB). H back your way, you have him man and/or become an extra hat. H back away from you, you can go to free safety or robber. |
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Post by CS on Nov 21, 2023 14:51:02 GMT -6
Maybe not new, but a weird one we saw in our last game, the Defense vs our 11P sets would play Man-DBL Free. Not really 2-Man but could be construed as that via this description. 4-Down front, 2-Backers in the box. CB's manned on #1 Nickle manned on #2. Backers manned on #3. Both Safeties sitting on/inside the hash just reading the QB/Backfield. Free fitters off the edge in the run, or Hole/Robbers in the pass game. We didn't release our TE much in the pass game so that Backer really just lived in the box, similarly with the RB and his backer. They would also play Cloud/Trap to the single side with that man look to the field. They did some good Trap/Cat stuff to add in some gimmicks. And then they hammered us with Firezone blitzes. Again nothing super new, but that Cover 20ish look was weird to see. Sound like it could a "Fox" type of coverage where the 2 safeties both key the h back (or RB). H back your way, you have him man and/or become an extra hat. H back away from you, you can go to free safety or robber. Oh yeah. Great coverage |
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Post by coach55 on Nov 21, 2023 15:10:27 GMT -6
Maybe not new, but a weird one we saw in our last game, the Defense vs our 11P sets would play Man-DBL Free. Not really 2-Man but could be construed as that via this description. 4-Down front, 2-Backers in the box. CB's manned on #1 Nickle manned on #2. Backers manned on #3. Both Safeties sitting on/inside the hash just reading the QB/Backfield. Free fitters off the edge in the run, or Hole/Robbers in the pass game. We didn't release our TE much in the pass game so that Backer really just lived in the box, similarly with the RB and his backer. They would also play Cloud/Trap to the single side with that man look to the field. They did some good Trap/Cat stuff to add in some gimmicks. And then they hammered us with Firezone blitzes. Again nothing super new, but that Cover 20ish look was weird to see. Sound like it could a "Fox" type of coverage where the 2 safeties both key the h back (or RB). H back your way, you have him man and/or become an extra hat. H back away from you, you can go to free safety or robber. Great way to plat that look |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 21, 2023 18:02:54 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. As a DC I always felt that the offense did us a favor by going gun in short yardage. Besides giving the RB a running start , being UC presents the threat of QB sneak. Taking away that threat allows us to open up the defense a little. There's nothing more embarrassing than giving up an easy TD on a predictable, simple play. No play is more simple than a QB sneak. Yep. Exactly. I always feel like the defense has the upper hand when the offense runs out of gun in short yardage. |
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