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Post by Down 'n Out on Nov 26, 2023 13:51:20 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye And if they were running single wing plays, it wouldn't bother me either. If they stay 4 wide its an issue imo but if they utilize a TE and H-Back and are running HB Power, Counter, QB Iso, QB Power I just dont see how theyre at a real disadvantage. Last season we were Gun-T but went undercenter to run a dominant QB Sneak because we had the OL and QB to do it. This season we were mostly Pistol with a TE and H-Back, never went under center and converted on the goal line and short yardage just fine. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 27, 2023 8:36:21 GMT -6
I've never seen an UC take a knee snap fumbled, but I have seen gun ones fumbled. Maybe my math is off, but it has happened exponentially more. I don't know what times difference 0 to however many is. As far as Illinois rules, I can't honestly tell you. Most gun people who take knees out of gun tell me when I ask them why "Because it's who we are". There's never a lot of reasoning behind it. And yes, I think running stuff out of gun that can be run out of UC just to run it out of gun is stupid. There is no stupider formation on earth than the Gun I. I cannot believe I am still responding here. Pretty sure you probably feel the same way. Ha We almost won a semi-final game when a 100% gun team had to try and take a knee under center. We put a 330 pounder in left A gap and a 350 pounder in right A gap and got the ball on their first attempt. The refs wanted us to back off but I said no way. That team was 100% gun and this was for a birth in the state finals. We would have won too, but had a bs hold call on a TD 2 plays later and ended kicking a last second FG to go to OT and lost. You actually ask teams that just beat you why they took a knee out of the gun?? By the way, their answer is 100% the most logical answer they could give you. That is who they are. They are a gun team. Should they be ready to take an uc snap when they absolutely must? Of course. Should they do that in the middle of the field, no. Let's just cut to the chase. You just hate the gun. Period. I believe that in Illinois, if a ref tells your team to back off and you still go at them, you can get a 15yd penalty. I don't know that for certain because I haven't personally been in a losing by a close score and opponent taking a knee situation in about 10 years and I believe the laying off is a fairly new "rule". Ya, I'll ask pretty much anyone anything any time. I don't hate the formation. I dabbled in some gun stuff. Probably my biggest win as a HC came because of some stuff I worked in out of gun. I do not care for the gun fanatics that act like if you don't run it your a caveman that fathom their amazing intellect. I also am not a big fan of what it's done to the game of football, but no one cares what I think, so it's whatever. |
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Post by Sonofahitch on Dec 12, 2023 11:47:01 GMT -6
I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. This is followed closely by taking a knee in gun for me. But yes, snapping the ball 5yds backwards to gain 6inches has always been a mystifying choice to me. I'll defend taking a knee from the Gun. If a (frustrated) defense wants to blow up the Center, they're not going to disrupt the exchange. The Q can take a knee without the threat of fumbling from people falling all over him (or just gettting hit for no reason). |
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 12, 2023 12:25:39 GMT -6
This is followed closely by taking a knee in gun for me. But yes, snapping the ball 5yds backwards to gain 6inches has always been a mystifying choice to me. I'll defend taking a knee from the Gun. If a (frustrated) defense wants to blow up the Center, they're not going to disrupt the exchange. The Q can take a knee without the threat of fumbling from people falling all over him (or just gettting hit for no reason). Again, see my posts about this. In Illinois, at least, if you say you're taking a knee the refs make the other team stay off you. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Dec 12, 2023 13:36:52 GMT -6
This is followed closely by taking a knee in gun for me. But yes, snapping the ball 5yds backwards to gain 6inches has always been a mystifying choice to me. I'll defend taking a knee from the Gun. If a (frustrated) defense wants to blow up the Center, they're not going to disrupt the exchange. The Q can take a knee without the threat of fumbling from people falling all over him (or just gettting hit for no reason). Ill defend it a step further... if I fumble a gun snap I and 2 other players are 4 or 5 yards from the defense so I am probably gonna be able to fall on it... if under center and fumble snap good chance I lose it. |
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Post by silkyice on Dec 12, 2023 14:26:28 GMT -6
I'll defend taking a knee from the Gun. If a (frustrated) defense wants to blow up the Center, they're not going to disrupt the exchange. The Q can take a knee without the threat of fumbling from people falling all over him (or just gettting hit for no reason). Ill defend it a step further... if I fumble a gun snap I and 2 other players are 4 or 5 yards from the defense so I am probably gonna be able to fall on it... if under center and fumble snap good chance I lose it. EXACTLY |
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Post by coachdmyers on Dec 12, 2023 14:26:54 GMT -6
You have seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than UC ones?? That is a lot of take a knee snaps. If you take a knee out of the gun and tell the refs you are taking a knee, don’t the same Illinois rules apply? If so, then what difference does it make how you take the snap? If you are on the 2, you go under center. I didn’t say that teams should never go under center to take a knee. And yes you should practice that every week. Even if that is literally the only time you should do it. What if you have to go 3 yards? Is the ball traveling 13 yards to gain 3 still stupid? I mean that is still a cute phrase. I've never seen an UC take a knee snap fumbled, but I have seen gun ones fumbled. Maybe my math is off, but it has happened exponentially more. I don't know what times difference 0 to however many is. As far as Illinois rules, I can't honestly tell you. Most gun people who take knees out of gun tell me when I ask them why "Because it's who we are". There's never a lot of reasoning behind it. And yes, I think running stuff out of gun that can be run out of UC just to run it out of gun is stupid. There is no stupider formation on earth than the Gun I. I can tell you two reasons: 1) because we are never under center, we never spend time practicing it, so when we have tried to go under center to snap or spike, we have actually had a higher rate of fumbling that we do in the gun. 2) Staying in the gun to kneel has afforded us the ability to kill a few extra seconds off the clock before the defense gets close enough. It means we can kill over a full two minutes if the other team doesn't have any timeouts. |
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Post by 3rdandlong on Dec 12, 2023 14:53:38 GMT -6
Seems like if the topic went off track so I'm going to ask this question.....
As a 100% gun guy who takes a knee from the gun, I have a question. What do you do when you're in a situation to be in victory formation but your inside the 5 yardline? Do you just call a run play or do you take a knee from under center?
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Post by coachdmyers on Dec 12, 2023 14:55:57 GMT -6
Honestly, depends on the scoreline, as in does the safety matter or not. We'd likely have our qb get the snap and then run forward with the line basically wedge blocking.
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Post by silkyice on Dec 12, 2023 16:23:44 GMT -6
Seems like if the topic went off track so I'm going to ask this question..... As a 100% gun guy who takes a knee from the gun, I have a question. What do you do when you're in a situation to be in victory formation but your inside the 5 yardline? Do you just call a run play or do you take a knee from under center? This is the situation where you practice this every Thursday. Just in case. And you have your centers and QBs take snaps every practice and every pre-game. I am literally talking about 30 seconds to 1 minute of work done everyday. It will be worth it when you HAVE to execute this. If you have a timeout, let the clock go to 1 second, take the timeout, and practice taking a knee on the sideline. Let's also be clear on this. Up 1 on the 1 yard line coming out with 1 minute left and you can win by taking a knee or two is NOT EASY for under center teams. Everyone better practice this also. Once every Thursday is enough. Maybe once a season is enough. That is up to you. But if you fail here and you didn't practice, don't blame the kids. |
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Post by agap on Dec 12, 2023 18:24:35 GMT -6
Against the T , 6 down lineman front wiht mostly 1's, 7s, and 9's, 20 linebackers, a "Vampire" at 1 foot behind the linebackers in a 00 technique then 2 safeties at 8 yards over the tight ends in 80 techniques. The defensive front would squeeze and spill. The "Vampire" would read the QB's face mask and flow opposite, safeties would read tight ends edit: We were successful with wide trap, Belly Iso, Dive, toss and play action. However it seemed to be the trend this year. Got film? or install info?  Also - what is a 7 and a 9 in your vocab? I was going to ask the same questions. Is there film? What is a 7 and a 9 tech? I coach in MN too but I haven't coached against a T team, yet even though more and more schools are going to it. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Dec 12, 2023 18:25:09 GMT -6
This is one of the advantages of the sidesaddle T. If the QB muffs the snap, it's very unlikely to bounce toward the defense, it's nigh impossible to go behind the QB's back, and it's very likely to land on the ground in full view of the QB. |
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Post by cwaltsmith on Dec 13, 2023 9:01:42 GMT -6
Seems like if the topic went off track so I'm going to ask this question..... As a 100% gun guy who takes a knee from the gun, I have a question. What do you do when you're in a situation to be in victory formation but your inside the 5 yardline? Do you just call a run play or do you take a knee from under center? We would stay in the gun and run a play or take a safety |
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etat8
Freshmen Member
Posts: 21
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Post by etat8 on Dec 13, 2023 14:32:53 GMT -6
-more 11 personnel, less 10 personnel. We are almost strictly 10p and I’ve never had less film on opponents lining up to basic rip/liz, Ricky/lucy than this year.
-a lot of Spread UB looks(meaning 2 WRs on the same side of the ball on or a SE covering a TE). Obviously a lot of motioning of that backside X WR. Nothing really interesting out of it. Mostly just Jet and plays off it. In a similar vein more Quads UB looks. Against nothing that interesting out of it. Bubbles, suckers, attacking the backside in the run game. Not sure why this is getting more popular, guess it just looks cool?
-Empty with a wing. Teams are in love with empty with a wing for some reason, must’ve seen it in 15-20 teams this year. Again I don’t see why. It gives you another vertical threat over basic 10p sets I guess. But the much diminished run game more than nullifies that in my view.
-less 1 high/cover 3. More odd fronts in general
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 13, 2023 14:52:24 GMT -6
Got film? or install info? Also - what is a 7 and a 9 in your vocab? I was going to ask the same questions. Is there film? What is a 7 and a 9 tech? I coach in MN too but I haven't coached against a T team, yet even though more and more schools are going to it. My guess would be 0 s 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 C G T E s = Shade |
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Post by Down 'n Out on Dec 13, 2023 14:59:00 GMT -6
-Empty with a wing. Teams are in love with empty with a wing for some reason, must’ve seen it in 15-20 teams this year. Again I don’t see why. It gives you another vertical threat over basic 10p sets I guess. But the much diminished run game more than nullifies that in my view. My HC in high school ran this a lot in the years after I graduated and when I was coaching under him. He liked it because pass pro was really good from it, set up a easy screen to the Wing, and like you said a vertical threat. In a similar line of thought when we were Wing-T I ran shotgun 1x2 with a TE and Wing to the 2 side as our long yardage set and it presented some problems for teams in the passing game but QB Buck was really good for us from that set. It did help that our fastest kid was our QB. Maybe the Empty Wing set gives them some of the same options? The threat of QB Sweep to that side along with passing options |
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Post by morris on Dec 13, 2023 15:19:43 GMT -6
-more 11 personnel, less 10 personnel. We are almost strictly 10p and I’ve never had less film on opponents lining up to basic rip/liz, Ricky/lucy than this year. -a lot of Spread UB looks(meaning 2 WRs on the same side of the ball on or a SE covering a TE). Obviously a lot of motioning of that backside X WR. Nothing really interesting out of it. Mostly just Jet and plays off it. In a similar vein more Quads UB looks. Against nothing that interesting out of it. Bubbles, suckers, attacking the backside in the run game. Not sure why this is getting more popular, guess it just looks cool? -Empty with a wing. Teams are in love with empty with a wing for some reason, must’ve seen it in 15-20 teams this year. Again I don’t see why. It gives you another vertical threat over basic 10p sets I guess. But the much diminished run game more than nullifies that in my view. -less 1 high/cover 3. More odd fronts in general We do a lot of this stuff. I don’t know about others but I can tell you why we do it. Empty with a TE/Wing gives the defense 8 gaps they have to defend. With the wing gives us a moveable gap. We have our entire run game and 7 man pass pro. Teams don’t line up well to TE/Wing. It also starts screwing with rules where you can steal yards. The same line of thinking with WR over unbalanced sets. Flexbone teams have been doing this forever. You saw it in the SEC championship game too by Bama. It’s not a looks cool thing. It’s a causes alignment issues where you can gain gaps. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 14, 2023 0:08:03 GMT -6
-Empty with a wing. Teams are in love with empty with a wing for some reason, must’ve seen it in 15-20 teams this year. Again I don’t see why. It gives you another vertical threat over basic 10p sets I guess. But the much diminished run game more than nullifies that in my view. My HC in high school ran this a lot in the years after I graduated and when I was coaching under him. He liked it because pass pro was really good from it, set up a easy screen to the Wing, and like you said a vertical threat. In a similar line of thought when we were Wing-T I ran shotgun 1x2 with a TE and Wing to the 2 side as our long yardage set and it presented some problems for teams in the passing game but QB Buck was really good for us from that set. It did help that our fastest kid was our QB. Maybe the Empty Wing set gives them some of the same options? The threat of QB Sweep to that side along with passing options Top 5 things DCs hate to defend. You said 'Wing Set', survey says... |
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Post by coachagamble on Dec 14, 2023 18:51:08 GMT -6
I coach in the top classification in SC and have for the last 20 years. Most everyone is 10 gun personnel, with some type of 'heavy/jumbo/Single wing' for short yardage/goal line. A couple go 11 personnel or 20 personnel. There is only 1 Wing T team. There is one that will go 12 personnel. Other than the Wing T team, we haven't played a mostly under center team since about 2009/2010 Double Wing team. Usually going under center is a dead give a way for QB sneak. The last time we saw a team that showed any type of Pro I type look was in 2017, and it was their 'change of pace' offense. The offenses in SC at our level are as exciting as a bowl of milk. Coach, I'm in the same classification in SC and totally agree. Outside of our region (in the midlands lots of 12p) everyone we played was a 10/11p team running the exact same plays. In my opinion everyone being the same has exposed the talent gaps between teams more than anything else! I do feel like I am seeing more 4 hand front in the state than I did 5-10 years ago. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 14, 2023 19:46:43 GMT -6
I coach in the top classification in SC and have for the last 20 years. Most everyone is 10 gun personnel, with some type of 'heavy/jumbo/Single wing' for short yardage/goal line. A couple go 11 personnel or 20 personnel. There is only 1 Wing T team. There is one that will go 12 personnel. Other than the Wing T team, we haven't played a mostly under center team since about 2009/2010 Double Wing team. Usually going under center is a dead give a way for QB sneak. The last time we saw a team that showed any type of Pro I type look was in 2017, and it was their 'change of pace' offense. The offenses in SC at our level are as exciting as a bowl of milk. Coach, I'm in the same classification in SC and totally agree. Outside of our region ( in the midlands lots of 12p) everyone we played was a 10/11p team running the exact same plays. In my opinion everyone being the same has exposed the talent gaps between teams more than anything else! I do feel like I am seeing more 4 hand front in the state than I did 5-10 years ago. 12 Personnel.... you'd be stupid to not try and copy Knotts.... |
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Post by veerwego on Dec 15, 2023 8:12:42 GMT -6
Coach, I'm in the same classification in SC and totally agree. Outside of our region ( in the midlands lots of 12p) everyone we played was a 10/11p team running the exact same plays. In my opinion everyone being the same has exposed the talent gaps between teams more than anything else! I do feel like I am seeing more 4 hand front in the state than I did 5-10 years ago. 12 Personnel.... you'd be stupid to not try and copy Knotts.... Have either of you had to play TL Hanna? I assume they are the wing-t team you speak of... I think that gives them a pretty big advantage. What do you think? I have a former player, that also coached for me, who is there and that school and community seems to be bought in. They have also been very successful, tough to be different these days if you are not winning at a high level. Also, like you said it is so boring. I get excited in college football now when somebody brings in an extra tight end or lines up in a bunch to run their zone rpo. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 15, 2023 8:25:41 GMT -6
12 Personnel.... you'd be stupid to not try and copy Knotts.... Have either of you had to play TL Hanna? I assume they are the wing-t team you speak of... I think that gives them a pretty big advantage. What do you think? I have a former player, that also coached for me, who is there and that school and community seems to be bought in. They have also been very successful, tough to be different these days if you are not winning at a high level. Also, like you said it is so boring. I get excited in college football now when somebody brings in an extra tight end or lines up in a bunch to run their zone rpo. oh yeah, we played them in the playoffs last year. They are pretty close to us. We always schedule a freshman game with them since usually we both will have a hole in that schedule. Coach Tone runs a sharp program and knows the Wing backwards and forwards. They have the Wing embedded in all of the levels of their program. They also have Superintendent that wants to win and has invested heavily into athletics. Their cross town rival spends a period everyday just working on Hanna. A few years ago Hanna and Dutch Fork played in the finals. Everyone in their region has to be prepared for them, because they are so contrarian to everyone else. Also what they do defensively is pretty impressive. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 16, 2023 4:08:18 GMT -6
12 Personnel.... you'd be stupid to not try and copy Knotts.... Have either of you had to play TL Hanna? I assume they are the wing-t team you speak of... I think that gives them a pretty big advantage. What do you think? I have a former player, that also coached for me, who is there and that school and community seems to be bought in. They have also been very successful, tough to be different these days if you are not winning at a high level. Also, like you said it is so boring. I get excited in college football now when somebody brings in an extra tight end or lines up in a bunch to run their zone rpo. You know reflecting on this, I think there is a reason that in SC you see so many spread/10 personnel teams. SC doesn't produce offensive linemen. There is a really good one/top level recruit this year, but for the most part that is it.... one. SC has its far share of skill position talent. There is some big skill talent around the state, especially in the low state, but for the most part it's the WR/RB/DB type here. Not saying the Wing isn't a 'ground and pound' offense, but it is little more finesse than say a Pro I/21 personnel team. The last time we played one of those was an out of state team in Etowah, GA. |
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Post by realdawg on Dec 16, 2023 5:37:55 GMT -6
SC may not develop too many OL, but there have been some studs on the DL.
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Post by coachwoodall on Dec 16, 2023 8:42:13 GMT -6
SC may not develop too many OL, but there have been some studs on the DL. I coached Travelle Wharton, best DL I've ever seen and luckily he took to playing some OL in HS. Made a nice 10 NFL career for him. |
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Post by veerwego on Dec 18, 2023 9:25:00 GMT -6
Have either of you had to play TL Hanna? I assume they are the wing-t team you speak of... I think that gives them a pretty big advantage. What do you think? I have a former player, that also coached for me, who is there and that school and community seems to be bought in. They have also been very successful, tough to be different these days if you are not winning at a high level. Also, like you said it is so boring. I get excited in college football now when somebody brings in an extra tight end or lines up in a bunch to run their zone rpo. You know reflecting on this, I think there is a reason that in SC you see so many spread/10 personnel teams. SC doesn't produce offensive linemen. There is a really good one/top level recruit this year, but for the most part that is it.... one. SC has its far share of skill position talent. There is some big skill talent around the state, especially in the low state, but for the most part it's the WR/RB/DB type here. Not saying the Wing isn't a 'ground and pound' offense, but it is little more finesse than say a Pro I/21 personnel team. The last time we played one of those was an out of state team in Etowah, GA. I think that makes it even more strange. If you don't have the OL to push folks around and cannot count on reliably having a QB that is a strong passer (both talent and understanding) or a really good athlete then why would you not consider the flexbone, wing-t, or something of that ilk. I guess we have gotten to a point where most coaches these days have no experience even coaching against those offenses, much less playing or coaching in the systems. Plus with the ability of players in many parts of the country to go to whichever school they want, coaches are probably hesitant to not run the TV offense b/c their better players may leave. |
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