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Post by groundchuck on Nov 22, 2023 6:02:20 GMT -6
During the regular season we saw a lot of TE/Wing formations. With that we saw Wing-T, Gun Wing-T,and 11P under center with zone blocking as thier base run game. Those were the number one formation we had to defend which was different than years past.
In the playoffs we lost to a Power T program and that is the trend right now in Minnesota. In the semi-finals across all six classes there were six teams running the Power T. Another one bases out of 32P with the Bone or Power I.
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Post by coachdawhip on Nov 23, 2023 19:50:52 GMT -6
Something that irritated the crap out of me was teams staying in gun in short yardage situations and running the ball by handing off to a back. It seemed to me that the vast majority of these plays got blown up. I would much prefer getting the QB under center in those situations so the RB can get a full head of steam. We stay in the gun but we have 3 FullBacks who are my best 2 DL, and LB. QB run game is coming. |
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Post by Down 'n Out on Nov 23, 2023 20:09:07 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye
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Post by vicvinegar on Nov 23, 2023 23:10:15 GMT -6
I've heard defenses playing off of the LOS, but I don't think I've ever seen it so noticable. However, one of the best teams in the state play it this way, so I'm sure there will be a lot of copycats next year.
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Post by 19delta on Nov 24, 2023 9:11:03 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye These ARE NOT single wing teams.  |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 24, 2023 10:27:52 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye I haven't played, coached or scouted against a single wing team since 1999. |
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Nov 24, 2023 11:01:41 GMT -6
Seeing more and more duo this year than in the past for sure. Still only 1 team really good at it. But seeing it more. what is duo? is that I/S but 'just stay on the double'  ? Duo is IZ but they bock the read guy (block all 6 gaps) and stay on doubles longer They claim the RB reads the LB - my kids runs to daylight on any of our 6 man blocking IZ type plays |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2023 11:06:03 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye I haven't played, coached or scouted against a single wing team since 1999. I think y'all are missing the point. |
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Nov 24, 2023 11:08:38 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye Also, it allows for options... UC allows QB sneak and RB dive.... Gun allows for RB dive and QB keep 2 options for both - works for me  |
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Post by raider92 on Nov 24, 2023 11:09:19 GMT -6
During the regular season we saw a lot of TE/Wing formations. With that we saw Wing-T, Gun Wing-T,and 11P under center with zone blocking as thier base run game. Those were the number one formation we had to defend which was different than years past. In the playoffs we lost to a Power T program and that is the trend right now in Minnesota. In the semi-finals across all six classes there were six teams running the Power T. Another one bases out of 32P with the Bone or Power I. I'm not in the state but have friends coaching there. As an outside observer the Power T takeover in Minnesota is fascinating to watch My DC friends in Minnesota don't think it's as cool as I do |
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 24, 2023 12:32:16 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye And if they were running single wing plays, it wouldn't bother me either. |
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Post by carookie on Nov 24, 2023 12:33:48 GMT -6
One thing that was new this year that I hadn't seen much of is We played a lot of teams that did unbalanced formations with a split end covering a TE or with two split ends and one of them being covered. Was thinking the same thing. Its not something new, but we faced a lot of opponents who would run tackle over, or cover up an eligible receiver about 6 or 7 times a game. Including most of our playoff opponents. |
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Post by kylem56 on Nov 24, 2023 12:53:06 GMT -6
Against the T , 6 down lineman front wiht mostly 1's, 7s, and 9's, 20 linebackers, a "Vampire" at 1 foot behind the linebackers in a 00 technique then 2 safeties at 8 yards over the tight ends in 80 techniques. The defensive front would squeeze and spill. The "Vampire" would read the QB's face mask and flow opposite, safeties would read tight ends
edit: We were successful with wide trap, Belly Iso, Dive, toss and play action. However it seemed to be the trend this year.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2023 13:37:20 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye And if they were running single wing plays, it wouldn't bother me either. I still don't think y'all get it. If they were running single wing plays, but not the right single wing plays on 4th and short, then that is still not good. Just like if you got under center but ran a slow developing play. If you are gun, but can run some power football plays that go straight ahead that is enough. Add in an h back or two and run: wedge, power, duo, inside zone kick - all of those are good enough. You can run with your QB or running back or out of wildcat. Being under center is not the "magic" is the point. And I am I wing t guy who has run wedge more on 2nd and 10 than most coaches have run wedge in their lifetime. The gun is perfectly capable in short yardage. |
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Post by chi5hi on Nov 24, 2023 13:48:34 GMT -6
Seeing more and more duo this year than in the past for sure. Still only 1 team really good at it. But seeing it more. what is duo? is that I/S but 'just stay on the double' ? Duo is like IZ...double to the 'backer...but Center blocks away from the POA not toward the play. Against many fronts you'll get two easier solid double teams. "DUO". |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 24, 2023 14:15:56 GMT -6
I haven't played, coached or scouted against a single wing team since 1999. I think y'all are missing the point. Not really. It's stupid for them to do it too. I was just throwing that nugget out. Single wing is non existent in under 3A football in Illinois. I can only name 2 programs in the state that run it. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2023 14:38:48 GMT -6
I think y'all are missing the point. Not really. It's stupid for them to do it too. I was just throwing that nugget out. Single wing is non existent in under 3A football in Illinois. I can only name 2 programs in the state that run it. Again. You are missing the point. The point is that you can run power football with a shotgun snap. For what it is worth, a 7A quarterfinalist in Alabama runs it and a 2A state champion powerhouse runs it. And plenty of other 7A football teams play running qb's out of the gun with multiple TE and H back sets. We played one last week and one in 4 hours. They both are pretty dang good on the goalline and in short yardage. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 24, 2023 16:06:05 GMT -6
Not really. It's stupid for them to do it too. I was just throwing that nugget out. Single wing is non existent in under 3A football in Illinois. I can only name 2 programs in the state that run it. Again. You are missing the point. The point is that you can run power football with a shotgun snap. For what it is worth, a 7A quarterfinalist in Alabama runs it and a 2A state champion powerhouse runs it. And plenty of other 7A football teams play running qb's out of the gun with multiple TE and H back sets. We played one last week and one in 4 hours. They both are pretty dang good on the goalline and in short yardage. My entire discussion is about taking a knee out of shotgun or running sneak out of it. Both are stupid. I could care less what people run their offenses out of. If you read my posts, they are only about those two things. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 24, 2023 16:17:43 GMT -6
Again. You are missing the point. The point is that you can run power football with a shotgun snap. For what it is worth, a 7A quarterfinalist in Alabama runs it and a 2A state champion powerhouse runs it. And plenty of other 7A football teams play running qb's out of the gun with multiple TE and H back sets. We played one last week and one in 4 hours. They both are pretty dang good on the goalline and in short yardage. My entire discussion is about taking a knee out of shotgun or running sneak out of it. Both are stupid. I could care less what people run their offenses out of. If you read my posts, they are only about those two things. Well I think it is stupid to think that is stupid. I understand having preferences and opinions. But do you really think that going under center to take a knee is smart if you are a 100% gun team? And do you really think that snapping the ball to someone who might be your best football player (like Cam Newton) in the gun while having a TE and an H back and a RB block for him so that you can gain a yard on the goalline is stupid? That it would be better to go under center and have him handoff or run sneak? I have zero problem with going under center (ummm wing t guy here), but I think that being gun is just fine and it makes more sense to find ways to do what you do effectively in all situations than to change what you do in crucial situations. |
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Nov 24, 2023 16:25:34 GMT -6
Against the T , 6 down lineman front wiht mostly 1's, 7s, and 9's, 20 linebackers, a "Vampire" at 1 foot behind the linebackers in a 00 technique then 2 safeties at 8 yards over the tight ends in 80 techniques. The defensive front would squeeze and spill. The "Vampire" would read the QB's face mask and flow opposite, safeties would read tight ends edit: We were successful with wide trap, Belly Iso, Dive, toss and play action. However it seemed to be the trend this year. Got film? or install info?  Also - what is a 7 and a 9 in your vocab? |
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Post by CS on Nov 24, 2023 19:33:08 GMT -6
Against the T , 6 down lineman front wiht mostly 1's, 7s, and 9's, 20 linebackers, a "Vampire" at 1 foot behind the linebackers in a 00 technique then 2 safeties at 8 yards over the tight ends in 80 techniques. The defensive front would squeeze and spill. The "Vampire" would read the QB's face mask and flow opposite, safeties would read tight ends edit: We were successful with wide trap, Belly Iso, Dive, toss and play action. However it seemed to be the trend this year. I have used the exact same front over the years. Never lost to a T team |
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Post by 19delta on Nov 24, 2023 20:09:48 GMT -6
Watching the Illinois 4a state title game. Rochester vs. St. Laurence.
Rochester came out in a formation something like this:
O…..O………………O..X..O…………..O..O
…………………………………………….O……..O
…………………………….Q
……………………………………………………O
QB got the snap and then threw a backwards pass to the receiver on the quads side. Pass was incomplete but the receiver didn’t go after the loose ball. Looked like the kid didn’t realize it was a live ball. St. Laurence recovered the ball and then scored a TD. I’m assuming it was going to be some kind of double pass.
Oof. 😂
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 25, 2023 9:08:16 GMT -6
My entire discussion is about taking a knee out of shotgun or running sneak out of it. Both are stupid. I could care less what people run their offenses out of. If you read my posts, they are only about those two things. Well I think it is stupid to think that is stupid. I understand having preferences and opinions. But do you really think that going under center to take a knee is smart if you are a 100% gun team? And do you really think that snapping the ball to someone who might be your best football player (like Cam Newton) in the gun while having a TE and an H back and a RB block for him so that you can gain a yard on the goalline is stupid? That it would be better to go under center and have him handoff or run sneak? I have zero problem with going under center (ummm wing t guy here), but I think that being gun is just fine and it makes more sense to find ways to do what you do effectively in all situations than to change what you do in crucial situations. Again, it could be different in another state, but in Illinois if you tell the refs you're taking a knee, the defense can not hit you. You can snap the ball as slow as you want. You could probably turn around and hand the ball to the QB. I've seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than I have UC ones. What do you do to take a knee if you're a gun team and the ball is at you 2? And if you're going to go under center there to prevent a safety, why can't you do that all the time? And yes, the ball traveling 11 yds to gain 1 will always seem stupid to me. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 25, 2023 9:25:19 GMT -6
Well I think it is stupid to think that is stupid. I understand having preferences and opinions. But do you really think that going under center to take a knee is smart if you are a 100% gun team? And do you really think that snapping the ball to someone who might be your best football player (like Cam Newton) in the gun while having a TE and an H back and a RB block for him so that you can gain a yard on the goalline is stupid? That it would be better to go under center and have him handoff or run sneak? I have zero problem with going under center (ummm wing t guy here), but I think that being gun is just fine and it makes more sense to find ways to do what you do effectively in all situations than to change what you do in crucial situations. Again, it could be different in another state, but in Illinois if you tell the refs you're taking a knee, the defense can not hit you. You can snap the ball as slow as you want. You could probably turn around and hand the ball to the QB. I've seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than I have UC ones. What do you do to take a knee if you're a gun team and the ball is at you 2? And if you're going to go under center there to prevent a safety, why can't you do that all the time? And yes, the ball traveling 11 yds to gain 1 will always seem stupid to me. You have seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than UC ones?? That is a lot of take a knee snaps. If you take a knee out of the gun and tell the refs you are taking a knee, don’t the same Illinois rules apply? If so, then what difference does it make how you take the snap? If you are on the 2, you go under center. I didn’t say that teams should never go under center to take a knee. And yes you should practice that every week. Even if that is literally the only time you should do it. What if you have to go 3 yards? Is the ball traveling 13 yards to gain 3 still stupid? I mean that is still a cute phrase. |
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 25, 2023 9:38:05 GMT -6
Again, it could be different in another state, but in Illinois if you tell the refs you're taking a knee, the defense can not hit you. You can snap the ball as slow as you want. You could probably turn around and hand the ball to the QB. I've seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than I have UC ones. What do you do to take a knee if you're a gun team and the ball is at you 2? And if you're going to go under center there to prevent a safety, why can't you do that all the time? And yes, the ball traveling 11 yds to gain 1 will always seem stupid to me. You have seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than UC ones?? That is a lot of take a knee snaps. If you take a knee out of the gun and tell the refs you are taking a knee, don’t the same Illinois rules apply? If so, then what difference does it make how you take the snap? If you are on the 2, you go under center. I didn’t say that teams should never go under center to take a knee. And yes you should practice that every week. Even if that is literally the only time you should do it. What if you have to go 3 yards? Is the ball traveling 13 yards to gain 3 still stupid? I mean that is still a cute phrase. I've never seen an UC take a knee snap fumbled, but I have seen gun ones fumbled. Maybe my math is off, but it has happened exponentially more. I don't know what times difference 0 to however many is. As far as Illinois rules, I can't honestly tell you. Most gun people who take knees out of gun tell me when I ask them why "Because it's who we are". There's never a lot of reasoning behind it. And yes, I think running stuff out of gun that can be run out of UC just to run it out of gun is stupid. There is no stupider formation on earth than the Gun I. |
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Post by silkyice on Nov 25, 2023 13:49:59 GMT -6
You have seen 100 times more fumbled gun take a knee snaps than UC ones?? That is a lot of take a knee snaps. If you take a knee out of the gun and tell the refs you are taking a knee, don’t the same Illinois rules apply? If so, then what difference does it make how you take the snap? If you are on the 2, you go under center. I didn’t say that teams should never go under center to take a knee. And yes you should practice that every week. Even if that is literally the only time you should do it. What if you have to go 3 yards? Is the ball traveling 13 yards to gain 3 still stupid? I mean that is still a cute phrase. I've never seen an UC take a knee snap fumbled, but I have seen gun ones fumbled. Maybe my math is off, but it has happened exponentially more. I don't know what times difference 0 to however many is. As far as Illinois rules, I can't honestly tell you. Most gun people who take knees out of gun tell me when I ask them why "Because it's who we are". There's never a lot of reasoning behind it. And yes, I think running stuff out of gun that can be run out of UC just to run it out of gun is stupid. There is no stupider formation on earth than the Gun I. I cannot believe I am still responding here. Pretty sure you probably feel the same way. Ha We almost won a semi-final game when a 100% gun team had to try and take a knee under center. We put a 330 pounder in left A gap and a 350 pounder in right A gap and got the ball on their first attempt. The refs wanted us to back off but I said no way. That team was 100% gun and this was for a birth in the state finals. We would have won too, but had a bs hold call on a TD 2 plays later and ended kicking a last second FG to go to OT and lost. You actually ask teams that just beat you why they took a knee out of the gun?? By the way, their answer is 100% the most logical answer they could give you. That is who they are. They are a gun team. Should they be ready to take an uc snap when they absolutely must? Of course. Should they do that in the middle of the field, no. Let's just cut to the chase. You just hate the gun. Period. |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 25, 2023 15:29:01 GMT -6
If my center and QB are operating out of the gun 100%, or even the vast majority of the time, I'd much rather ask them to execute a gun snap with a win on the line. Practice matters, I say let them win the game doing something they practice all the time.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Nov 25, 2023 15:37:06 GMT -6
Little anecdote since we're on the topic: my HC was the first in our area to base out of Shotgun (20ish years ago), but we had a UC package around the goalline.
We played the former school of a retired, legendary HC. The guy was first or second in state history in wins at the time, his offense was an under center wing-T scheme for most of his career.
So retired legendary HC comes up to our HC after the game and asks "what the hell are you doing under center on the goal line? Your QB doesn't know anything about being under center, why put him there in the most important area of the field?"
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Post by tripsclosed on Nov 25, 2023 16:21:28 GMT -6
Little anecdote since we're on the topic: my HC was the first in our area to base out of Shotgun (20ish years ago), but we had a UC package around the goalline. We played the former school of a retired, legendary HC. The guy was first or second in state history in wins at the time, his offense was an under center wing-T scheme for most of his career. So retired legendary HC comes up to our HC after the game and asks "what the hell are you doing under center on the goal line? Your QB doesn't know anything about being under center, why put him there in the most important area of the field?" For what it is worth, I would be curious to see a study on GL yards and TD success rates for teams that base from UC and stay in UC to run on goalline, and teams that base from gun and stay in gun to run on the goalline, throwing out pass-heavy teams as they tend not to be very good at the run game because they spend so much time specializing in the pass game. |
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Post by Down 'n Out on Nov 26, 2023 13:42:51 GMT -6
Shotgun in short yardage never bothered me, Single Wing teams do it every snap and no one bats an eye I haven't played, coached or scouted against a single wing team since 1999. Virginia has quite a few SW teams |
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