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Post by 3rdandlong on Feb 11, 2022 13:48:13 GMT -6
So, I've seen a few interviews with Mike McDaniel. Let's just say he's not exactly what I envision when I think "football coach." I'm not saying he's bad and I'm not saying he's good, but he's definitely different. Is this the type of personality that we're going to see more of going forward? Are we getting rid of the rough and gruff coach (Coach Ogeron, Tomlin, Saban, Belichick, etc.)?
We're already seeing more of the hollywood type guys (McVay, LeFleur, Kingsbury, Riley). Are we now transitioning into the nerdy guy?
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 11, 2022 14:17:33 GMT -6
The Bears tried it with Marc Trestman. It did not go well.
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Post by blb on Feb 11, 2022 14:44:08 GMT -6
The Bears tried it with Marc Trestman. It did not go well. To be fair to Trestman - Most everything the Bears try does not go well.
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 11, 2022 15:20:17 GMT -6
The Bears tried it with Marc Trestman. It did not go well. To be fair to Trestman - Most everything the Bears try does not go well. It apparently didn't go well in Baltimore for him either.
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Post by blb on Feb 11, 2022 15:40:14 GMT -6
To be fair to Trestman - Most everything the Bears try does not go well. It apparently didn't go well in Baltimore for him either. Apparently not. Perhaps the problem with Bears is not so much who is getting hired, but who's doing the hiring?
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Post by bluedevil4 on Feb 11, 2022 15:41:06 GMT -6
I've never really looked at it this way, but I can see where you're getting that. I wonder if it has more to do with the types of coaches who figure out how to best motivate, develop, and manage players in this new age of CTE awareness, mental health awareness, technology, handling modern and shifting social norms and practices, etc.
The Shanahan tree in particular seems to handle these new norms well, and they appear to have an amazing bond with each other. I feel that's one way that they're developing so many good, young coaches, and there seems to be a general eagerness from that tree of coaches to uplift and push coaches under them to reach higher. Most of these young "nerds" taking over the NFL are from that tree, including Mike McDaniel.
Not to mention the Shanahan offense has a reputation for making average QB's good, and good QB's great. Whether it's statistically proven or not, anyone from the Shanahan tree is going to be a juicy coaching candidate for the coming years. Their offenses are fun to watch as well. While the WCO mastered throwing the ball to all eligible receivers, this Shanahan offense does a great job of running the ball to all its athletes. They use a pretty simple formula for beating defenses, and attacking the entire field with just a few different calls (less is more), which is also enticing. If you watch some of McVay's teams, you'd almost think they were a Wing-T offense at times with how they set up their packages and use formations and motions. Only difference is they're zone blocking rather than gap blocking.
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 11, 2022 15:44:46 GMT -6
It apparently didn't go well in Baltimore for him either. Apparently not. Perhaps the problem with Bears is not so much who is getting hired, but who's doing the hiring? Oh, the organization is a mess. No doubt.
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Post by carookie on Feb 11, 2022 20:29:49 GMT -6
I've never really looked at it this way, but I can see where you're getting that. I wonder if it has more to do with the types of coaches who figure out how to best motivate, develop, and manage players in this new age of CTE awareness, mental health awareness, technology, handling modern and shifting social norms and practices, etc. The Shanahan tree in particular seems to handle these new norms well, and they appear to have an amazing bond with each other. I feel that's one way that they're developing so many good, young coaches, and there seems to be a general eagerness from that tree of coaches to uplift and push coaches under them to reach higher. Most of these young "nerds" taking over the NFL are from that tree, including Mike McDaniel. Not to mention the Shanahan offense has a reputation for making average QB's good, and good QB's great. Whether it's statistically proven or not, anyone from the Shanahan tree is going to be a juicy coaching candidate for the coming years. Their offenses are fun to watch as well. While the WCO mastered throwing the ball to all eligible receivers, this Shanahan offense does a great job of running the ball to all its athletes. They use a pretty simple formula for beating defenses, and attacking the entire field with just a few different calls (less is more), which is also enticing. If you watch some of McVay's teams, you'd almost think they were a Wing-T offense at times with how they set up their packages and use formations and motions. Only difference is they're zone blocking rather than gap blocking. It may be more of a getting someone whose game management and play calling theories fall in line with what the analytics say. I know, I know, statistics are not the tell all in football as they are in baseball (or even basketball for that matter). But there are a lot of times that the way that things have always been done doesnt jibe with what the analytics say should be done. I think of it like this: Post WWII the military academies were dominant, and people like to think of football as a form of combat anyways, so the thought was have coaches who are like drill sergeants. Do the whole Junction Boys thing, toughen up, deny them water, and thats how you win. This leads to the Lombardi types, or as the OP stated the rough and gruff coaches. Coming after this time, most new coaches were just former players, the thought being that if you were a good player you must have the secret to get others to be good players. So former players get hired and most just do the same thing, in general, as those before them. Obviously there are changes, evolutions, etc. We are all coaches and know he history of the game, I'm sure most have read "Blood, Sweat, and Chalk". But that mostly speaks to the schematics, I think the psychology of the game changed first, and as people began to realize that connecting with players and relating to them can create a winning culture we get these young-energetic coaches that the OP deemed "hollywood". Still, there has been a reluctance to bring the "nerdy guy" into the coaches box. For the longest time a coach needed to be a leader. You know how we tend to vote for the taller candidate in an election....well same with coaches- we see big strong guys as the leader. Also, they need to teach technique, and an NFL locker room aint always the place for the meek. I had a buddy who coached in the NFL in the late 90s, his first day with his position group an all-pro player bowed up and tried to intimidate him that 'he had forgot more football than this new coach' (and this guy was a former d1 player). That being written, we have had recent HCs who never even played HS ball, so that has become less of an issue. And as eluded to earlier, the analytics aspect. I know it bothers some people, but more often than not, the numbers are right. And the "nerdy" guys may tend to trust the right numbers (whether they be statistical models on play calling, GPS measurements of player movement, or evidence based training regiments).
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Post by coachjm on Feb 12, 2022 5:14:24 GMT -6
I don't think there is any doubt, the style of negative, demeaning, or overly critical instruction is going out. Ultimately, like the NBA transitioned as the NFLPA and the players gain more and more power and more freedom to move the more the Coach will need to connect build relationships to create a culture people want to be at... I see it similar too both the work place and education....
A couple generations ago most owners of companies and bosses weren't concerned about company culture they were worried about production.. Now almost all companies are trying to attract talent with work place culture flexibility and enjoyable work environments. Can you picture your great grandfather riding a scooter down the halls of his work place?
Educationally, has moved this way as well, if I had a dollar for everytime I hear student centered instruction and differentiation I would be a rich man. I know all the educators on here have seen this transformation for better or for worse...
The NFL is going through the same transition, in the end I don't think it is for better or worse, I'm certainly not on board with how Bo, woody, Lombardi always treated players in effort to win more games with that said the results they had impacting people can't be argued unless it was just a byproduct of the strong surviving..
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Post by **** on Feb 12, 2022 8:06:02 GMT -6
Besides the fact you have to know someone to get in the NFL.
The biggest reason guys do or don’t make it in the league is because they have to know ball at the highest level. Rah rah guys, salesman/recruiters, those types can’t cut it. You have to know what you’re talking about or you provide no value.
Nerdy types fit that build more so than tough/outwork everyone guys.
The style in the end doesn’t matter. It’s all about how well you know and can teach the game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 8:17:54 GMT -6
Besides the fact you have to know someone to get in the NFL. The biggest reason guys do or don’t make it in the league is because they have to know ball at the highest level. Rah rah guys, salesman/recruiters, those types can’t cut it. You have to know what you’re talking about or you provide no value. Nerdy types fit that build more so than tough/outwork everyone guys. The style in the end doesn’t matter. It’s all about how well you know and can teach the game. This is a bigger deal than many realize, I think. In HS ball, if you can get kids lifting, teach fundamentals, and stay out of your own way, you can win. I’m college ball, if you can recruit well, sell yourself, and handle all the politics and PR that goes with being a college coach, you can win. In the NFL, you need more than that. Everybody does the same stuff. The secret sauce is all in breaking down film, finding tiny little things that allow for exploitable matchups, game planning, and then figuring out a dozen different ways to do the same things week in and out. Oh, and also you have to have a competent organization to build the team for you and keep it together or replace pieces as necessary. It’s surprising how bad so many NFL teams are at that, especially when it’s owned by someone who inherited the team.
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etat8
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Post by etat8 on Feb 12, 2022 8:30:15 GMT -6
Don’t really have a strong opinion on this guy, but funny to me that the media narrative about him being a savant took off when he explained why they liked to tag interior runs with a toss. I’m sure he is incredibly knowledgeable about the game, but just like with Brandon Staley being lauded as a genius for explaining why running the ball is important a few months ago, people are much more inclined to read intelligence into the words of people that look and speak like what they imagine intelligent people to look and speak like.
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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 12, 2022 8:36:22 GMT -6
I've never really looked at it this way, but I can see where you're getting that. I wonder if it has more to do with the types of coaches who figure out how to best motivate, develop, and manage players in this new age of CTE awareness, mental health awareness, technology, handling modern and shifting social norms and practices, etc. The Shanahan tree in particular seems to handle these new norms well, and they appear to have an amazing bond with each other. I feel that's one way that they're developing so many good, young coaches, and there seems to be a general eagerness from that tree of coaches to uplift and push coaches under them to reach higher. Most of these young "nerds" taking over the NFL are from that tree, including Mike McDaniel. Not to mention the Shanahan offense has a reputation for making average QB's good, and good QB's great. Whether it's statistically proven or not, anyone from the Shanahan tree is going to be a juicy coaching candidate for the coming years. Their offenses are fun to watch as well. While the WCO mastered throwing the ball to all eligible receivers, this Shanahan offense does a great job of running the ball to all its athletes. They use a pretty simple formula for beating defenses, and attacking the entire field with just a few different calls (less is more), which is also enticing. If you watch some of McVay's teams, you'd almost think they were a Wing-T offense at times with how they set up their packages and use formations and motions. Only difference is they're zone blocking rather than gap blocking. It may be more of a getting someone whose game management and play calling theories fall in line with what the analytics say. I know, I know, statistics are not the tell all in football as they are in baseball (or even basketball for that matter). But there are a lot of times that the way that things have always been done doesnt jibe with what the analytics say should be done. I think of it like this: Post WWII the military academies were dominant, and people like to think of football as a form of combat anyways, so the thought was have coaches who are like drill sergeants. Do the whole Junction Boys thing, toughen up, deny them water, and thats how you win. This leads to the Lombardi types, or as the OP stated the rough and gruff coaches. Coming after this time, most new coaches were just former players, the thought being that if you were a good player you must have the secret to get others to be good players. So former players get hired and most just do the same thing, in general, as those before them. Obviously there are changes, evolutions, etc. We are all coaches and know he history of the game, I'm sure most have read "Blood, Sweat, and Chalk". But that mostly speaks to the schematics, I think the psychology of the game changed first, and as people began to realize that connecting with players and relating to them can create a winning culture we get these young-energetic coaches that the OP deemed "hollywood". Still, there has been a reluctance to bring the "nerdy guy" into the coaches box. For the longest time a coach needed to be a leader. You know how we tend to vote for the taller candidate in an election....well same with coaches- we see big strong guys as the leader. Also, they need to teach technique, and an NFL locker room aint always the place for the meek. I had a buddy who coached in the NFL in the late 90s, his first day with his position group an all-pro player bowed up and tried to intimidate him that 'he had forgot more football than this new coach' (and this guy was a former d1 player). That being written, we have had recent HCs who never even played HS ball, so that has become less of an issue. And as eluded to earlier, the analytics aspect. I know it bothers some people, but more often than not, the numbers are right. And the "nerdy" guys may tend to trust the right numbers (whether they be statistical models on play calling, GPS measurements of player movement, or evidence based training regiments). Gonna take a shot at a hypothesis here. I think the two biggest factors in all you talked about above are pure leadership ability (this is independent of sport/job-specific culture), and football culture and environment. 1) I think you HAVE to have pure leadership ability in order to have a shot at successfully coaching. And historically, "nerds", whether in the classroom, on the sports field/court, or in the workplace, have not had what it takes to be a leader in terms of pure leadership ability. Now, there are different things we could talk about as to WHY that is, and different hypotheses we could put forward as to why that is. There are obviously exceptions, Bill Gates is probably the best example. His leadership at Microsoft speaks for itself, to say the least. That being said, he was notorious for being socially "out there" outside of his leadership at Microsoft, so why was he a successful leader at Microsoft, but "out there" socially? That brings us to the second factor. 2) In my mind, Bill Gates was successful because, in addition to his pure leadership ability (and computer skills and business acumen...), he either understood and was good at, or simply was good at without really understanding, the culture and environment he led in. Football has a very specific, very unique culture and environment. I think some of it comes with the fact that it is a rough and tough, physical sport by its very nature, and also combative. I think some of it is in the DNA from most of the coaches who led it in its early years. And, some of it has just emerged over the years for no apparent or discernible reason...But, at the end of the day, if you aren't good at navigating the culture and environment, you wont be successful. A "nerd" could come in and be successful IF they have good pure leadership ability AND can successfully navigate the culture and environment. Bill Walsh is probably the closest and best example of this happening, he was very intelligent and cerebral, would get emotional over games, would get depressed, etc, but he successfully navigated the culture and environment.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 8:47:12 GMT -6
I've never really looked at it this way, but I can see where you're getting that. I wonder if it has more to do with the types of coaches who figure out how to best motivate, develop, and manage players in this new age of CTE awareness, mental health awareness, technology, handling modern and shifting social norms and practices, etc. The Shanahan tree in particular seems to handle these new norms well, and they appear to have an amazing bond with each other. I feel that's one way that they're developing so many good, young coaches, and there seems to be a general eagerness from that tree of coaches to uplift and push coaches under them to reach higher. Most of these young "nerds" taking over the NFL are from that tree, including Mike McDaniel. Not to mention the Shanahan offense has a reputation for making average QB's good, and good QB's great. Whether it's statistically proven or not, anyone from the Shanahan tree is going to be a juicy coaching candidate for the coming years. Their offenses are fun to watch as well. While the WCO mastered throwing the ball to all eligible receivers, this Shanahan offense does a great job of running the ball to all its athletes. They use a pretty simple formula for beating defenses, and attacking the entire field with just a few different calls (less is more), which is also enticing. If you watch some of McVay's teams, you'd almost think they were a Wing-T offense at times with how they set up their packages and use formations and motions. Only difference is they're zone blocking rather than gap blocking. It may be more of a getting someone whose game management and play calling theories fall in line with what the analytics say. I know, I know, statistics are not the tell all in football as they are in baseball (or even basketball for that matter). But there are a lot of times that the way that things have always been done doesnt jibe with what the analytics say should be done. I think of it like this: Post WWII the military academies were dominant, and people like to think of football as a form of combat anyways, so the thought was have coaches who are like drill sergeants. Do the whole Junction Boys thing, toughen up, deny them water, and thats how you win. This leads to the Lombardi types, or as the OP stated the rough and gruff coaches. Coming after this time, most new coaches were just former players, the thought being that if you were a good player you must have the secret to get others to be good players. So former players get hired and most just do the same thing, in general, as those before them. Obviously there are changes, evolutions, etc. We are all coaches and know he history of the game, I'm sure most have read "Blood, Sweat, and Chalk". But that mostly speaks to the schematics, I think the psychology of the game changed first, and as people began to realize that connecting with players and relating to them can create a winning culture we get these young-energetic coaches that the OP deemed "hollywood". Still, there has been a reluctance to bring the "nerdy guy" into the coaches box. For the longest time a coach needed to be a leader. You know how we tend to vote for the taller candidate in an election....well same with coaches- we see big strong guys as the leader. Also, they need to teach technique, and an NFL locker room aint always the place for the meek. I had a buddy who coached in the NFL in the late 90s, his first day with his position group an all-pro player bowed up and tried to intimidate him that 'he had forgot more football than this new coach' (and this guy was a former d1 player). That being written, we have had recent HCs who never even played HS ball, so that has become less of an issue. And as eluded to earlier, the analytics aspect. I know it bothers some people, but more often than not, the numbers are right. And the "nerdy" guys may tend to trust the right numbers (whether they be statistical models on play calling, GPS measurements of player movement, or evidence based training regiments). I agree with all of this. I also think there’s are changing cultural ideas of masculinity and how coaches are expected to behave at work here. Remember: the whole reason HS football began was as a way to toughen up boys and “turn them into men” because people in the early 20th century were afraid of boys growing up soft and “effeminate.” The USA needed guys who were ready for military service and exhausting manual labor jobs. The fear was that they’d graduate from school unable to hack it in society or serve their country. The culture itself was different. A lot of what would now be considered “abuse” was considered an important crucible to develop the mental toughness required of men. A lot of what now gets labeled “toxic masculinity” were considered the acceptable by-products of “manly virtues” back then. Nowadays the crusty old coach who believes in grueling practices, “coaching hard,” and acting like he’s the baddest man on the planet and the players all need to follow his example and to follow orders without hesitation is an anachronism at best and a potential legal liability at worst. Back then, people wanted coaches who were more like drill sergeants. Now people want coaches who are more like tech executives: smart, innovative, data-focused, and well-educated on the game and how to use the current legal, political, and social climate to their advantage rather than banging their head against it. Also, it’s worth pointing out that the guy this post was originally written about is a well-spoken Ivy League graduate who happens to be biracial. It’s also worth noting that he was hired to replace the guy who is suing the NFL in a bombshell racial discrimination lawsuit that is going to drag on and haunt the team (and league) for years. Part of Mike McDaniel’s job is going to be dealing with questions about that and trying to rehab the franchise’s image.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 8:53:04 GMT -6
Don’t really have a strong opinion on this guy, but funny to me that the media narrative about him being a savant took off when he explained why they liked to tag interior runs with a toss. I’m sure he is incredibly knowledgeable about the game, but just like with Brandon Staley being lauded as a genius for explaining why running the ball is important a few months ago, people are much more inclined to read intelligence into the words of people that look and speak like what they imagine intelligent people to look and speak like. Yeah. I’ve seen a lot of media pundits declaring him an innovative genius because he played his best athlete at RB as well as WR to get the ball in his hands more. That’s something many HS coaches I know figured out a long, long time ago.
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 12, 2022 9:48:30 GMT -6
I'm just amazed that Shanahan and his magical tree became so adored since he was looking at potentially getting fired mid season.
This wave of fervor of a "type" will pass, just as they all do.
In the NFL, "culture", analytics, RPOs, whatever the hot term is, only takes you as far as your talent. Guys suddenly become "gurus" or "see the game pass them by" correlative to their talent levels. It's amazing.
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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 12, 2022 9:55:05 GMT -6
Don’t really have a strong opinion on this guy, but funny to me that the media narrative about him being a savant took off when he explained why they liked to tag interior runs with a toss. I’m sure he is incredibly knowledgeable about the game, but just like with Brandon Staley being lauded as a genius for explaining why running the ball is important a few months ago, people are much more inclined to read intelligence into the words of people that look and speak like what they imagine intelligent people to look and speak like. By tagging interior runs with a toss, was he referring to running an interior run blocking scheme, like Iso, with the QB and RB carrying out toss action?
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Post by blb on Feb 12, 2022 11:36:01 GMT -6
Matt LaFleur is not a big guy-commanding physical presence, although I wouldn't say he looks like a "nerd."
Played D-II CFB.
Seems to be doing okay.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 12, 2022 11:46:26 GMT -6
Besides the fact you have to know someone to get in the NFL. The biggest reason guys do or don’t make it in the league is because they have to know ball at the highest level. Rah rah guys, salesman/recruiters, those types can’t cut it. You have to know what you’re talking about or you provide no value. Nerdy types fit that build more so than tough/outwork everyone guys. The style in the end doesn’t matter. It’s all about how well you know and can teach the game. This is a bigger deal than many realize, I think. In HS ball, if you can get kids lifting, teach fundamentals, and stay out of your own way, you can win. I’m college ball, if you can recruit well, sell yourself, and handle all the politics and PR that goes with being a college coach, you can win. In the NFL, you need more than that. Everybody does the same stuff. The secret sauce is all in breaking down film, finding tiny little things that allow for exploitable matchups, game planning, and then figuring out a dozen different ways to do the same things week in and out. Oh, and also you have to have a competent organization to build the team for you and keep it together or replace pieces as necessary. It’s surprising how bad so many NFL teams are at that, especially when it’s owned by someone who inherited the team. THIS! This is also why NFL coaches might not make the best hs coach or college coach. Or a college coach might not make the best NFL or hs coach. If you think about it, it all comes down to players. Period. A NFL coach/team drafts their players. They are already strong and know fundamentals and are motivated. So now, exploit matchups. A college team recruits their players. So the best recruiters win. In high school, for the most part, you aren't recruiting your players. So you have to make them the best athletes they can be - strength and speed training. Nutrition. Get them to come out. Motivate them. Teach them. This does not discount all the other 100 things that you have to do to win. But players are the number one ingredient.
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 12, 2022 12:35:43 GMT -6
Matt LaFleur is not a big guy-commanding physical presence, although I wouldn't say he looks like a "nerd." Played D-II CFB. Seems to be doing okay. I hate the "point out what talent is on the team to negate a coach's ability" argument, BUT having a first ballot HOFer and 4 time MVP helps. It is also helpful to have 6 wins basically written in stone because of a horrible division every year.
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Post by fantom on Feb 12, 2022 13:28:14 GMT -6
So, I've seen a few interviews with Mike McDaniel. Let's just say he's not exactly what I envision when I think "football coach." I'm not saying he's bad and I'm not saying he's good, but he's definitely different. Is this the type of personality that we're going to see more of going forward? Are we getting rid of the rough and gruff coach (Coach Ogeron, Tomlin, Saban, Belichick, etc.)? We're already seeing more of the hollywood type guys (McVay, LeFleur, Kingsbury, Riley). Are we now transitioning into the nerdy guy? I think we're just seeing more guys who are comfortable with the media.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 12, 2022 14:21:19 GMT -6
Well, this is his owner.... I think some of this may be related to feeling familiar with your employees
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 12, 2022 15:46:39 GMT -6
Remember: the whole reason HS football began was as a way to toughen up boys and “turn them into men” because people in the early 20th century were afraid of boys growing up soft and “effeminate.” The USA needed guys who were ready for military service and exhausting manual labor jobs. The fear was that they’d graduate from school unable to hack it in society or serve their country. I missed this the first time. What are you talking about?
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Post by tripsclosed on Feb 12, 2022 15:52:14 GMT -6
This is a bigger deal than many realize, I think. In HS ball, if you can get kids lifting, teach fundamentals, and stay out of your own way, you can win. I’m college ball, if you can recruit well, sell yourself, and handle all the politics and PR that goes with being a college coach, you can win. In the NFL, you need more than that. Everybody does the same stuff. The secret sauce is all in breaking down film, finding tiny little things that allow for exploitable matchups, game planning, and then figuring out a dozen different ways to do the same things week in and out. Oh, and also you have to have a competent organization to build the team for you and keep it together or replace pieces as necessary. It’s surprising how bad so many NFL teams are at that, especially when it’s owned by someone who inherited the team. THIS! This is also why NFL coaches might not make the best hs coach or college coach. Or a college coach might not make the best NFL or hs coach. If you think about it, it all comes down to players. Period. A NFL coach/team drafts their players. They are already strong and know fundamentals and are motivated. So now, exploit matchups. A college team recruits their players. So the best recruiters win. In high school, for the most part, you aren't recruiting your players. So you have to make them the best athletes they can be - strength and speed training. Nutrition. Get them to come out. Motivate them. Teach them. This does not discount all the other 100 things that you have to do to win. But players are the number one ingredient. Think about this: Belichick and Saban are the best ever at their respective levels. That said, reverse their levels, would they have the same level of success? We have already seen how Saban did at the NFL level as an HC (might have got it right on a second shot). Can you imagine Belichick trying to recruit at the college level? "We'd love to have you here, our guys are tremendous football players, in all three phases of the game" 😄 He might do better than i give him credit for off the top of my head, but, I dont think he would do as good at Alabama as Saban has. They are each well-suited for the level they coach at.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 17:29:07 GMT -6
Remember: the whole reason HS football began was as a way to toughen up boys and “turn them into men” because people in the early 20th century were afraid of boys growing up soft and “effeminate.” The USA needed guys who were ready for military service and exhausting manual labor jobs. The fear was that they’d graduate from school unable to hack it in society or serve their country. I missed this the first time. What are you talking about? Back in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when you had guys like Teddy Roosevelt preaching the “strenuous life,” a lot of people felt that modern life was making boys soft and lazy. I’ve seen the word “effeminate” used in a few places. Basically, they were afraid American boys wouldn’t be manly enough to keep the nation going. After rules got changed for safety reasons (the game was in danger of being banned), HS football became seen as a safe and structured way to train young boys to be tough and disciplined both mentally and physically. That was largely because boxing, which was the more popular sport at the time, was just too dangerous for HS to sponsor. This was part of an overall movement to expand PE and competitive athletics among boys by encouraging HS sports in general. Prior to those days, football was mostly a club sport. The early days of the game were wild before the rule changes. There are stories of backs playing with multiple footballs sewn onto their uniforms so nobody could tell who had the real ball, ball carriers being literally picked up and thrown over the goal line, etc. In the very early days, it was even legal for OL to get a running start before hitting the LOS, too, so a lot of teams turned every offensive play into an old school KR wedge.
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 12, 2022 19:41:52 GMT -6
1. Where are you getting this version of the evolution of football. 2. How are you linking it to some desire to train people for the military?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 20:17:08 GMT -6
1. Where are you getting this version of the evolution of football. 2. How are you linking it to some desire to train people for the military? I’m not going to post a full length annotated bibliography for you, but here is one source that I found in 2 seconds on Google that corroborated multiple aspects of what I just said www.history.com/news/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-football
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Post by larrymoe on Feb 12, 2022 20:28:30 GMT -6
1. Where are you getting this version of the evolution of football. 2. How are you linking it to some desire to train people for the military? I’m not going to post a full length annotated bibliography for you, but here is one source that I found in 2 seconds on Google that corroborated multiple aspects of what I just said www.history.com/news/how-teddy-roosevelt-saved-footballI've read that book. I have never seen this football to war notion your espousing here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2022 20:35:35 GMT -6
I've read that book. I have never seen this football to war notion your espousing here. Seriously? If you’d click the link and read the article, you’d see this quote, for starters: “Although his nearsightedness kept him off the Harvard varsity squad, Roosevelt was a vocal exponent of football’s contribution to the “strenuous life,” both on and off the field. As New York City police commissioner, he helped revive the annual Harvard-Yale football series after it had been canceled for two years following the violent 1894 clash that was deemed “the bloodbath at Hampden Park.” His belief that the football field was a proving ground for the battlefield was validated by the performance of his fellow Rough Riders who were former football standouts. “In life, as in a football game,” he wrote, “the principle to follow is: Hit the line hard; don’t foul and don’t shirk, but hit the line hard!” In 1903, the president told an audience, “I believe in rough games and in rough, manly sports. I do not feel any particular sympathy for the person who gets battered about a good deal so long as it is not fatal.” TR was far from the only person of his time who felt that way and there is a reason that a large number of coaches, even pre-WW2, came from a military background.
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Post by spartan on Feb 12, 2022 21:43:20 GMT -6
The Bears tried it with Marc Trestman. It did not go well. To be fair to Trestman - Most everything the Bears try does not go well. This is A+ Material
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