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Post by spartan on Feb 12, 2022 21:45:10 GMT -6
Who cares, last guy that finished his contract with dolphins was Wannstadt. As a Bills Fan I am all for hipster doufus going there. Now if he becomes successful wow what a divison might even rival NFC west.
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etat8
Freshmen Member
Posts: 21
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Post by etat8 on Feb 13, 2022 6:36:51 GMT -6
Don’t really have a strong opinion on this guy, but funny to me that the media narrative about him being a savant took off when he explained why they liked to tag interior runs with a toss. I’m sure he is incredibly knowledgeable about the game, but just like with Brandon Staley being lauded as a genius for explaining why running the ball is important a few months ago, people are much more inclined to read intelligence into the words of people that look and speak like what they imagine intelligent people to look and speak like. By tagging interior runs with a toss, was he referring to running an interior run blocking scheme, like Iso, with the QB and RB carrying out toss action? Yes. Running your basic interior schemes with a toss exchange instead of a handoff.
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Post by blb on Feb 13, 2022 8:28:09 GMT -6
Yeah. I’ve seen a lot of media pundits declaring him an innovative genius because he played his best athlete at RB as well as WR to get the ball in his hands more. That’s something many HS coaches I know figured out a long, long time ago. Jack Mollenkopf played Leroy Keyes at both RB and FL for Purdue 1967-68. Keyes finished second (to OJ Simpson) for 1968 Heisman, was third in 1967.
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Post by spreadattack on Feb 13, 2022 9:13:02 GMT -6
My only comment is that all types of personalities and backgrounds can succeed as football coaches, so long as they can do the one thing that is a requirement: coach. Of course, players make you a better coach, so there can be a lot of luck (in the NFL, how lucky you are at drafting, how good your GM is, does your owner pay) and in college recruiting is the name of the game so the guys you see in those roles are going to have to walk into homes and get players to come.
In the NFL, at core what most good players want is someone who can help them be personally successful at their job (make them better), win, and get paid -- and usually the getting paid comes with being good and winning. I really don't know anything about Mike McDaniel but he's had success and he seems to have at least some degree of player loyalty; the SF tight-end Kittle had it basically written into his contract that McDaniel would be involved with coaching him.
And yes, anytime you coach pros you deal with the fact that there are guys that make more money than you, have more experience than you, and have had plenty of success before they ever met you -- one approach is to treat them like they are still 21 years old and you are their God, and another may be to make it more of a professional, two-way relationship. We saw how the first approach worked for Urban Meyer this year (among other issues) and it's been an issue for other college goes who have gone to the pros; seems like McDaniel and some of his similar coaches take more of the second.
All of which is to say, it's no surprise to me to see different kinds of coaches hired and to be successful, both at specific levels like the NFL, college, HS, or across football. Pete Carroll, Mike Leach and Bill Belichick are successful (on a relative basis, not comparing Leach to guys who won Super Bowls and National Titles, and in the case of Belichick maybe the best coach ever), but think about how different they are as people and their styles, and Leach didn't even play football and Carroll was a safety at the University of Pacific and cut from the Hawaii World Football League team, and Belichick was a backup/sometimes player at Wesleyan.
I have no idea if McDaniel will be successful, but I am convinced there are lots of ways to get the job done and we'll continue to see a wide array of coaches and coaching styles.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Feb 13, 2022 9:30:24 GMT -6
1. Where are you getting this version of the evolution of football. 2. How are you linking it to some desire to train people for the military? To the first question... The history of most "field-ball" contact sports have the exact same story. Football (before there was soccer, rugby, and our footballl) was organized at colleges and secondary schools for the first time, at a time where religion and developing boys to men were the key components of education systems around most of the western world. This was a time when school was primarily for men, and achievement towards God/religion was a core curriculum and standard of success for most schools. Sports, especially contact sports, were the physical vehicle that schools used to "teach" boys to be men...to mold men to be tough, strong, and powerful, the way God wanted them to be. This isn't unknown...you can look up the history of every form of football, and they will share a similar story (Thank the English Empire for how profound this moral is). www.amazon.com/Oval-World-Global-History-Rugby/dp/1408831570This book in the link is about rugby's history, but the first few chapters overlap heavily with football and soccer. There's a couple early chapters that do a great history on why the "quarterback" position exists, and the start of our football in the 19th century. All of the "footballs" were the same sport, and you can't talk about WHY football started without talking about the shared history of the sports. A big part behind the WHY is that these sports were first organized at schools as a means to develop "boys into men," in "God's own image."
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Post by blb on Feb 13, 2022 11:40:39 GMT -6
Matt LaFleur is not a big guy-commanding physical presence, although I wouldn't say he looks like a "nerd." Played D-II CFB. Seems to be doing okay. I hate the "point out what talent is on the team to negate a coach's ability" argument, BUT having a first ballot HOFer and 4 time MVP helps. It is also helpful to have 6 wins basically written in stone because of a horrible division every year. Dan Reeves was an NFL player, had John Elway has his QB when AFC West is not as tough as it is today, never won a Super Bowl. Parenthetically - Revves (who I thought was a great coach-is in Pro Football HOF) looked more like a college professor than your Protypical NFL coach.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 13, 2022 11:46:10 GMT -6
I hate the "point out what talent is on the team to negate a coach's ability" argument, BUT having a first ballot HOFer and 4 time MVP helps. It is also helpful to have 6 wins basically written in stone because of a horrible division every year. Dan Reeves was an NFL player, had John Elway has his QB when AFC West is not as tough as it is today, never won a Super Bowl. Parenthetically - Revves (who I thought was a great coach-is in Pro Football HOF) looked more like a college professor than your Protypical NFL coach. Matt Lefleur hasn't won a superbowl either. I don't know if I would say there is a "prototypical" look for an NFL coach.
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Post by blb on Feb 13, 2022 11:47:56 GMT -6
Dan Reeves was an NFL player, had John Elway has his QB when AFC West is not as tough as it is today, never won a Super Bowl. Parenthetically - Revves (who I thought was a great coach-is in Pro Football HOF) looked more like a college professor than your Protypical NFL coach. Matt Lefleur hasn't won a superbowl either. I don't know if I would say there is a "prototypical" look for an NFL coach. No, not yet (only three years in), and he might not. "Protypical" meaning not like a "nerd" as some have described McDaniel here.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 13, 2022 11:53:51 GMT -6
Matt Lefleur hasn't won a superbowl either. I don't know if I would say there is a "prototypical" look for an NFL coach. No, not yet (only three years in), and he might not. "Protypical" meaning not like a "nerd" as some have described McDaniel here. Ah... I never viewed McDaniel as a nerd. Not imposing, like an Art Shell, or Mike Vrabel, or abrasive like Bill Parcells. But not necessarily a nerd. I guess I don't really think that word has much of a place in society today, which is probably the underlying theme of this thread.
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Post by fantom on Feb 13, 2022 11:59:37 GMT -6
Yeah. I’ve seen a lot of media pundits declaring him an innovative genius because he played his best athlete at RB as well as WR to get the ball in his hands more. That’s something many HS coaches I know figured out a long, long time ago. Jack Mollenkopf played Leroy Keyes at both RB and FL for Purdue 1967-68. Keyes finished second (to OJ Simpson) for 1968 Heisman, was third in 1967. Keyes also played defense.
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Post by blb on Feb 13, 2022 12:19:41 GMT -6
No, not yet (only three years in), and he might not. "Protypical" meaning not like a "nerd" as some have described McDaniel here. Ah... I never viewed McDaniel as a nerd. Not imposing, like an Art Shell, or Mike Vrabel, or abrasive like Bill Parcells. But not necessarily a nerd. I guess I don't really think that word has much of a place in society today, which is probably the underlying theme of this thread. No argument here. I was a 5-9 English teacher (mostly, also PE), wore glasses last 10-12 years of my career. Of course I didn't coach in NFL.
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Post by coachdubyah on Feb 13, 2022 15:52:16 GMT -6
To be fair to Trestman - Most everything the Bears try does not go well. This is A+ Material Being a Bears fan now is equivalent to being a Saints fan in the mid to late 90's.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 13, 2022 17:08:18 GMT -6
Being a Bears fan now is equivalent to being a Saints fan in the mid to late 90's. Oh, the Ditka years...not as bad as the mid to late 70's through early 80's though. The start of the bagheads!
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Post by wildcatslbcoach24 on Feb 13, 2022 17:35:03 GMT -6
So, I've seen a few interviews with Mike McDaniel. Let's just say he's not exactly what I envision when I think "football coach." I'm not saying he's bad and I'm not saying he's good, but he's definitely different. Is this the type of personality that we're going to see more of going forward? Are we getting rid of the rough and gruff coach (Coach Ogeron, Tomlin, Saban, Belichick, etc.)? We're already seeing more of the hollywood type guys (McVay, LeFleur, Kingsbury, Riley). Are we now transitioning into the nerdy guy? Why do I feel attacked by this line of commentary?!? Hahaha
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2022 21:26:45 GMT -6
So, I've seen a few interviews with Mike McDaniel. Let's just say he's not exactly what I envision when I think "football coach." I'm not saying he's bad and I'm not saying he's good, but he's definitely different. Is this the type of personality that we're going to see more of going forward? Are we getting rid of the rough and gruff coach (Coach Ogeron, Tomlin, Saban, Belichick, etc.)? We're already seeing more of the hollywood type guys (McVay, LeFleur, Kingsbury, Riley). Are we now transitioning into the nerdy guy? Why do I feel attacked by this line of commentary?!? Hahaha I've been asking myself the same thing!
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Post by carookie on Feb 14, 2022 9:49:17 GMT -6
So, I've seen a few interviews with Mike McDaniel. Let's just say he's not exactly what I envision when I think "football coach." I'm not saying he's bad and I'm not saying he's good, but he's definitely different. Is this the type of personality that we're going to see more of going forward? Are we getting rid of the rough and gruff coach (Coach Ogeron, Tomlin, Saban, Belichick, etc.)? We're already seeing more of the hollywood type guys (McVay, LeFleur, Kingsbury, Riley). Are we now transitioning into the nerdy guy? Why do I feel attacked by this line of commentary?!? Hahaha Attacked? We should all feel encouraged.
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CoachSP
Sophomore Member
Posts: 212
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Post by CoachSP on Feb 14, 2022 12:46:47 GMT -6
I've never really looked at it this way, but I can see where you're getting that. I wonder if it has more to do with the types of coaches who figure out how to best motivate, develop, and manage players in this new age of CTE awareness, mental health awareness, technology, handling modern and shifting social norms and practices, etc. The Shanahan tree in particular seems to handle these new norms well, and they appear to have an amazing bond with each other. I feel that's one way that they're developing so many good, young coaches, and there seems to be a general eagerness from that tree of coaches to uplift and push coaches under them to reach higher. Most of these young "nerds" taking over the NFL are from that tree, including Mike McDaniel. Not to mention the Shanahan offense has a reputation for making average QB's good, and good QB's great. Whether it's statistically proven or not, anyone from the Shanahan tree is going to be a juicy coaching candidate for the coming years. Their offenses are fun to watch as well. While the WCO mastered throwing the ball to all eligible receivers, this Shanahan offense does a great job of running the ball to all its athletes. They use a pretty simple formula for beating defenses, and attacking the entire field with just a few different calls (less is more), which is also enticing. If you watch some of McVay's teams, you'd almost think they were a Wing-T offense at times with how they set up their packages and use formations and motions. Only difference is they're zone blocking rather than gap blocking. I think you have a great point. I would add that it is a copy cat league. When one thing works, everyone tries to recreate it.
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Post by junior6589 on Feb 14, 2022 13:10:48 GMT -6
I think trends come and go and the "nerdy" "analytical" guy is definitely in vogue right now. And yes, as other posters said, you do need to have a very intimate knowledge of the game to succeed at the highest level.
But lets be honest, no matter the style you need the following to succeed in the NFL, no matter your style -An elite or close to elite QB -Top notch OL and DL -A brain and common sense in regards to clock management -A staff around you that is competent.
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Post by fantom on Feb 14, 2022 13:34:40 GMT -6
I've read that book. I have never seen this football to war notion your espousing here. I'm not a believer in "Football as war" either but there's definitely a military connection. Where else would you go to find out how to train a lot of men as thoroughly and quickly as possible? That was especially important back when NFL players went home to offseason jobs and college players spent the summer at home. They needed longer, tougher camps to work themselves into shape, like the military does in basic. If we're seeing a different style of coaching that difference, the fact that offseason programs hve eliminated the need for military-style training camps, has a lot to do with it.
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Post by Coach.A on Feb 14, 2022 18:27:11 GMT -6
I just watched some of McDaniel's press conference.
When speaking, he is a bit awkward. I did find him funny. But most importantly, you can tell he's genuine. I thought all of his responses to questions were excellent.
Like others have alluded to, he made it very clear in his press conference that he is there to work for the players. The traditional mindset of "the players work for me", has become less and less effective.
I think a big part why some of these younger guys are having success is that they are better able to utilize new technology to drive progress, and they have a better understanding of how to teach the younger generation.
I found this response interesting:
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Post by wildcatslbcoach24 on Feb 14, 2022 20:19:15 GMT -6
Why do I feel attacked by this line of commentary?!? Hahaha Attacked? We should all feel encouraged. Haha I gotcha, it’s always weird being the “nerdy” coach, too goofy and awkward to be cool, to big to be made fun of for said characteristics, especially when people see your competitiveness and coaching.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Apr 20, 2022 11:52:02 GMT -6
This is honestly a refreshing evolution of football coaches.
We've spent so many years as a society raising men for being "tough guys" that have a littany of character flaws and keep mental health issues bottled up to protect their image. It's just a dumb way to think and go about life. We're now more educated than ever, more informed than ever, and social norms are constantly evolving. Toxic masculinity is going to reach Gen Z and younger millenials.
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Post by dubber on Apr 20, 2022 14:13:02 GMT -6
At that level, it is all about if you got the quarterback……which is a lot about luck.
Lots of Colts and Patriots coaching staffs got to build lives for 20 years plus (as opposed to move every few years) due to the stability of manning/luck and Brady. Lots of long runs in Green Bay with rodgers/farve.
Yes things like culture and coaching matter, because you’re going to need a 5th rounder to pop at some point to win in the playoffs.
That is where their money is earned IMO…..how can you manufacture “cheap” starters? Patriots excel at it…..Gibbs was good at getting guys no one wanted to block wide zone……it’s a game of limited resources, and the best staffs know how to plug holes with less than ideal talent and overcome injuries.
But long term success comes from having a mahomes
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Post by dubber on Apr 20, 2022 14:17:21 GMT -6
To relate this to high school ball……we earn our money (what little there is) in getting our 10th and 11th best starters to play at their highest levels.
Your top half needs coaching, but if you are any good, those guys should be winning their individual matchups.
We will spend a third of our time on our worst starting OL guy, because the deeper in the playoffs you go, the better the chance he will get exposed.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 20, 2022 18:27:46 GMT -6
Toxic masculinity is going to reach Gen Z and younger millenials. What?
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Post by 19delta on Apr 21, 2022 8:16:51 GMT -6
If Mike McDaniels fails, it won't have anything to do with his perceived nerdishness. The vast majority of NFL head coaches fail. It's a tough job that has resulted in countless capable and successful men getting fired.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Apr 21, 2022 8:36:19 GMT -6
Toxic masculinity is going to reach Gen Z and younger millenials. What? LOL typo Meant to put a "NOT" in there
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Post by bluedevil4 on Apr 21, 2022 8:52:41 GMT -6
LOL typo Meant to put a "NOT" in there I figured you meant "Not" haha. However, I don't think it will be that much of an improvement. I see it more as toxic masculinity will continue, but younger generations will be much more educated and equipped to talk bout and work on improving it (or will be better at recognizing and addressing it).
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Post by coachcb on Apr 21, 2022 10:27:00 GMT -6
IMO, many NFL coaches are finally realizing that coaching an adult professional athlete is much different than working with a college kid. It's takes a more balanced relationship to get results from that professional adult. Hence why the fire-n-brimestone coaches don't tend to last in the NFL anymore.
To be fair to Tomlin, I've always viewed him as a straight-forward coach and administrator. Not necessarily a "gruff" personality; the dude just exudes professionalism. He comes across as calm, collected and "neutral" for lack of a better term. He's there to get a job done and his personality fits the bill.
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Post by carookie on Apr 21, 2022 15:23:02 GMT -6
IMO, many NFL coaches are finally realizing that coaching an adult professional athlete is much different than working with a college kid. It's takes a more balanced relationship to get results from that professional adult. Hence why the fire-n-brimestone coaches don't tend to last in the NFL anymore. To be fair to Tomlin, I've always viewed him as a straight-forward coach and administrator. Not necessarily a "gruff" personality; the dude just exudes professionalism. He comes across as calm, collected and "neutral" for lack of a better term. He's there to get a job done and his personality fits the bill. I would go as far as to say that fire-n-brimstone coaches don't really work on any level, and I can't think of one over the past 50 years that has been a major success as such; or at the very least because of such. Maybe its a matter of semantics, but to me a fire-n-brimstone coach is one who tries to be successful by using anger and fiery bluster to motivate his team to success. For certain there have been many coaches who have been successful who are viewed as gruff and aloof, but most of these men are just seen as being harsh for holding players accountable and not getting too attached to the individuals. And I don't view this as fire-n-brimstone.
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