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Post by larrymoe on Apr 21, 2022 16:15:20 GMT -6
IMO, many NFL coaches are finally realizing that coaching an adult professional athlete is much different than working with a college kid. It's takes a more balanced relationship to get results from that professional adult. Hence why the fire-n-brimestone coaches don't tend to last in the NFL anymore. To be fair to Tomlin, I've always viewed him as a straight-forward coach and administrator. Not necessarily a "gruff" personality; the dude just exudes professionalism. He comes across as calm, collected and "neutral" for lack of a better term. He's there to get a job done and his personality fits the bill. I would go as far as to say that fire-n-brimstone coaches don't really work on any level, and I can't think of one over the past 50 years that has been a major success as such; or at the very least because of such. Maybe its a matter of semantics, but to me a fire-n-brimstone coach is one who tries to be successful by using anger and fiery bluster to motivate his team to success. For certain there have been many coaches who have been successful who are viewed as gruff and aloof, but most of these men are just seen as being harsh for holding players accountable and not getting too attached to the individuals. And I don't view this as fire-n-brimstone. Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. |
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Post by carookie on Apr 21, 2022 17:32:51 GMT -6
I would go as far as to say that fire-n-brimstone coaches don't really work on any level, and I can't think of one over the past 50 years that has been a major success as such; or at the very least because of such. Maybe its a matter of semantics, but to me a fire-n-brimstone coach is one who tries to be successful by using anger and fiery bluster to motivate his team to success. For certain there have been many coaches who have been successful who are viewed as gruff and aloof, but most of these men are just seen as being harsh for holding players accountable and not getting too attached to the individuals. And I don't view this as fire-n-brimstone. Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 21, 2022 17:44:27 GMT -6
Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. Never underestimate the ability of people to be stupid. |
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Post by wolverine55 on Apr 22, 2022 7:19:42 GMT -6
I would go as far as to say that fire-n-brimstone coaches don't really work on any level, and I can't think of one over the past 50 years that has been a major success as such; or at the very least because of such. Maybe its a matter of semantics, but to me a fire-n-brimstone coach is one who tries to be successful by using anger and fiery bluster to motivate his team to success. For certain there have been many coaches who have been successful who are viewed as gruff and aloof, but most of these men are just seen as being harsh for holding players accountable and not getting too attached to the individuals. And I don't view this as fire-n-brimstone. Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. I was literally getting ready to write the same thing. My high school basketball coach may fit the definition as his main motivation tactic was that you didn't want to piss him off. But, even then, he was no where near what you sometimes see in movies or hear about in stories that have, more than likely, been exaggerated over the years. Additionally, he won a state title, over 600 total games, and didn't retire until after the 2020 season. |
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Post by 44dlcoach on Apr 22, 2022 7:38:57 GMT -6
This has taken a weird turn. I feel like good coaches are good regardless of personality type and crappy coaches suck regardless of personality type.
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 22, 2022 7:39:50 GMT -6
Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 22, 2022 8:29:16 GMT -6
Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 Vince Lombardi? The guy credited with being the first football coach to go to bat for a gay player and often credited by former players as being deeply invested in their personal family life? That guy? "Vince Lombardi had so much humanity, I was just lucky to be around him," Kopay said. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 22, 2022 8:52:51 GMT -6
IMO, many NFL coaches are finally realizing that coaching an adult professional athlete is much different than working with a college kid. It's takes a more balanced relationship to get results from that professional adult. Hence why the fire-n-brimestone coaches don't tend to last in the NFL anymore. To be fair to Tomlin, I've always viewed him as a straight-forward coach and administrator. Not necessarily a "gruff" personality; the dude just exudes professionalism. He comes across as calm, collected and "neutral" for lack of a better term. He's there to get a job done and his personality fits the bill. I would go as far as to say that fire-n-brimstone coaches don't really work on any level, and I can't think of one over the past 50 years that has been a major success as such; or at the very least because of such. Maybe its a matter of semantics, but to me a fire-n-brimstone coach is one who tries to be successful by using anger and fiery bluster to motivate his team to success. For certain there have been many coaches who have been successful who are viewed as gruff and aloof, but most of these men are just seen as being harsh for holding players accountable and not getting too attached to the individuals. And I don't view this as fire-n-brimstone.
Yeah, the Bobby Knight's of the world aren't going to cut it. With that being said, I've certainly seen clips of Saban where I'd describe him as being "fire-n-brimstone". Certainly not to the extent that say Bill Parcells was but still a whole lot of p-ssed-off coaching.
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Post by tripsclosed on Apr 22, 2022 8:56:38 GMT -6
Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 Vince Lombardi? The guy credited with being the first football coach to go to bat for a gay player and often credited by former players as being deeply invested in their personal family life? That guy? "Vince Lombardi had so much humanity, I was just lucky to be around him," Kopay said. Oh, he was a phenomenal person, I studied him and his career inside and out when i was in HS and college, but he could definitely get crazy |
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Post by carookie on Apr 22, 2022 9:07:28 GMT -6
Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 Lombardi is why i initially wrote in the last 50 years, although i think that aspect of his coaching style has been somewhat exaggerated. It sells better that he willed his team to win by fiery temperament than by having a good line and simplistic system that executed at high levels. I guess Hayes makes it in the timeframe, though just barely, so theres that. I dont know if i’d consider Urban Meyer as a fire-n-brimstone type. Knights interesting, he seems like he could be, but is he really any different than Coach K. Not as much a fire-n-brimstone, but more of a military type leader who wants to be harsh towards his players to establish his dominance. Maybe im splitting hairs here, but that seems different to me |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 22, 2022 9:28:20 GMT -6
Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it.
Yes indeed. I've worked with my fair share of coaches who think that yelling and screaming at kids is the best way to get their point across. One had this mantra; "Two things motivate a person: fear and hunger. I can't starve 'em but I can make them feel fear." Friggin' idiot.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 22, 2022 9:45:45 GMT -6
Vince Lombardi? The guy credited with being the first football coach to go to bat for a gay player and often credited by former players as being deeply invested in their personal family life? That guy? "Vince Lombardi had so much humanity, I was just lucky to be around him," Kopay said. Oh, he was a phenomenal person, I studied him and his career inside and out when i was in HS and college, but he could definitely get crazy Anybody can get crazy. Ever see Dabo Swinney on a sideline? |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 22, 2022 9:51:20 GMT -6
Oh, he was a phenomenal person, I studied him and his career inside and out when i was in HS and college, but he could definitely get crazy Anybody can get crazy. Ever see Dabo Swinney on a sideline?
You're blessed if you've never worked with a Bobby Knight wannabe.
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Post by bluedevil4 on Apr 22, 2022 9:53:24 GMT -6
I would go as far as to say that fire-n-brimstone coaches don't really work on any level, and I can't think of one over the past 50 years that has been a major success as such; or at the very least because of such. Maybe its a matter of semantics, but to me a fire-n-brimstone coach is one who tries to be successful by using anger and fiery bluster to motivate his team to success. For certain there have been many coaches who have been successful who are viewed as gruff and aloof, but most of these men are just seen as being harsh for holding players accountable and not getting too attached to the individuals. And I don't view this as fire-n-brimstone. Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. The women's Basketball Coach at my undergrad got fired for literally working church/christianity into every single practice, and made it a requirement for the entire team to go to Church weekly (including the team captain who was Muslim). Turned out behind closed doors she regularly made the kid of outbursts you'd expect from someone under the "fire 'n' brimstone" description. My varsity football coach in high school was pretty darn close to this as well. Would work all sorts of shoe-horns about how if you don't go to church, you won't do well on the football field, and stuff like that. IMO, the moment you start shoe-horning religion into your coaching as an "essential" to having success on the athletic field, that's pretty much fire 'n' brimstone. It's imposing beliefs/views on others. EDIT: Should clarify: When I think "Fire 'n' Brimstone," I'm envisioning specifically coaches imposing absurd religious dogma and demands/threats into their job, not so much the black and blue/no-nonsense tough-guy coaches. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 22, 2022 9:54:27 GMT -6
Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 Lombardi is why i initially wrote in the last 50 years, although i think that aspect of his coaching style has been somewhat exaggerated. It sells better that he willed his team to win by fiery temperament than by having a good line and simplistic system that executed at high levels. I guess Hayes makes it in the timeframe, though just barely, so theres that. I dont know if i’d consider Urban Meyer as a fire-n-brimstone type. Knights interesting, he seems like he could be, but is he really any different than Coach K. Not as much a fire-n-brimstone, but more of a military type leader who wants to be harsh towards his players to establish his dominance. Maybe im splitting hairs here, but that seems different to me Exactly on Lombardi. In comparison, he yelled more, but was a much softer touch than say Belichick in real life. I don't know much about Hayes honestly. Urban Meyer was just an {censored}. I think Knight had 2 different careers. Yes, he was intense his entire career, but having read quite a bit about him I think he was a little softer in private early in his career. Later on he bought into his heel personna and it just overtook him. I've seen it happen before. See Mike Ditka, Ozzie Guillen, Ed Orgeron, etc |
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Post by fantom on Apr 22, 2022 10:00:25 GMT -6
Who in history was a "fire and brimstone" coach? I think people, and apparently even some coaches here, have watched too many movies. Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. The "Hit somebody" guys. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 22, 2022 10:02:07 GMT -6
Thats exactly what I am writing. Its a media creation for the most part. That being written, I have worked with a few guys who felt it to be a real thing and tried to become it. The "Hit somebody" guys. Those guys are the worst. I think the average IQ of a hit someone guy is about 52. |
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Post by s73 on Apr 22, 2022 10:51:05 GMT -6
Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 Lombardi is why i initially wrote in the last 50 years, although i think that aspect of his coaching style has been somewhat exaggerated. It sells better that he willed his team to win by fiery temperament than by having a good line and simplistic system that executed at high levels. I guess Hayes makes it in the timeframe, though just barely, so theres that. I dont know if i’d consider Urban Meyer as a fire-n-brimstone type. Knights interesting, he seems like he could be, but is he really any different than Coach K. Not as much a fire-n-brimstone, but more of a military type leader who wants to be harsh towards his players to establish his dominance. Maybe im splitting hairs here, but that seems different to me Not to hijack the thread but just wanted to mention that John Madden had an interesting perspective on VL. He said as a youngster he thought he knew football until he listened to a clinic talk with VL and he spent 6 hours discussing 1 play. Madden said that he realized how little he knew after listening to him b/c he never focused on the amount of detail that VL put into everything. As fire as Fire n Brimstone, I would see him as extremely disciplined and I think he expected the same from his players. But...that was a different era. The coach held all the chips then b/c of lower player salaries. So...I think he was F n B comparatively to today but I don't see it as a bad thing. I think he was more a father figure and they didn't want to disappoint him due to the fact that teams were more family than business back then as they are now. At least that's the perspective I've gotten from the material I have read / watched. |
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Post by airitout616 on Apr 22, 2022 12:33:28 GMT -6
Who cares what a coach looks like, if he can coach ball he can coach ball. I generally have shaggy long hair and wear Vans and it doesn't have any effect how I coach.
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 22, 2022 12:44:41 GMT -6
Who cares what a coach looks like, if he can coach ball he can coach ball. I generally have shaggy long hair and wear Vans and it doesn't have any effect how I coach. I don't disagree with you, but people certainly do. Look at Kliff Kingsbury. |
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Post by carookie on Apr 22, 2022 12:52:41 GMT -6
Who cares what a coach looks like, if he can coach ball he can coach ball. I generally have shaggy long hair and wear Vans and it doesn't have any effect how I coach. True, and i think thats the essence of this thread. But in reality tall people are more likely to get raises or win an election (compared to equally skilled shorter people). Perception in lots of ways drives reality, and there are certain attributes we naturally hope for in those in “leadership positions”. The skills and abilities that make a good coach are so ambiguous to most, that they just default to that traditional alpha leader stereotype. |
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Post by fantom on Apr 22, 2022 13:18:04 GMT -6
Lombardi, Woody Hayes, Urban Meyer, Bobby Knight ring any bells? 😄 Lombardi is why i initially wrote in the last 50 years, although i think that aspect of his coaching style has been somewhat exaggerated. It sells better that he willed his team to win by fiery temperament than by having a good line and simplistic system that executed at high levels. I guess Hayes makes it in the timeframe, though just barely, so theres that. I dont know if i’d consider Urban Meyer as a fire-n-brimstone type. Knights interesting, he seems like he could be, but is he really any different than Coach K. Not as much a fire-n-brimstone, but more of a military type leader who wants to be harsh towards his players to establish his dominance. Maybe im splitting hairs here, but that seems different to me I don't really understand the comparison between Knight and K. |
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Post by blb on Apr 22, 2022 13:28:53 GMT -6
Who cares what a coach looks like, if he can coach ball he can coach ball. I generally have shaggy long hair and wear Vans and it doesn't have any effect how I coach. The NFL (and to only slightly lesser extent CFB) is a BIG business and as such is much more corporate or "buttoned up" than HS coaching. Appearances do matter there. |
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Post by blb on Apr 22, 2022 13:33:29 GMT -6
Lombardi is why i initially wrote in the last 50 years, although i think that aspect of his coaching style has been somewhat exaggerated. It sells better that he willed his team to win by fiery temperament than by having a good line and simplistic system that executed at high levels. I guess Hayes makes it in the timeframe, though just barely, so theres that. I dont know if i’d consider Urban Meyer as a fire-n-brimstone type. Knights interesting, he seems like he could be, but is he really any different than Coach K. Not as much a fire-n-brimstone, but more of a military type leader who wants to be harsh towards his players to establish his dominance. Maybe im splitting hairs here, but that seems different to me I don't really understand the comparison between Knight and K. Maybe because Krzyzewski played-coached for Knight at Army. Also according to former players Krzyzewski was not bashful about using "colorful" language at practices. |
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Post by fantom on Apr 22, 2022 14:28:50 GMT -6
I don't really understand the comparison between Knight and K. Maybe because Krzyzewski played-coached for Knight at Army. Also according to former players Krzyzewski was not bashful about using "colorful" language at practices. Which doesn't make him much of an outlier in the college coaching community. |
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Post by carookie on Apr 22, 2022 15:40:16 GMT -6
Lombardi is why i initially wrote in the last 50 years, although i think that aspect of his coaching style has been somewhat exaggerated. It sells better that he willed his team to win by fiery temperament than by having a good line and simplistic system that executed at high levels. I guess Hayes makes it in the timeframe, though just barely, so theres that. I dont know if i’d consider Urban Meyer as a fire-n-brimstone type. Knights interesting, he seems like he could be, but is he really any different than Coach K. Not as much a fire-n-brimstone, but more of a military type leader who wants to be harsh towards his players to establish his dominance. Maybe im splitting hairs here, but that seems different to me I don't really understand the comparison between Knight and K. Knight was Coach K’s mentor, and while K keeps it less visible than Knight did, he definitely has some of those tendencies that have been cited here for Knight. Ie insulting and cussing at your players, dressing them down, etc. I have heard some stories over this past season, it being his swan song, that took me aback. |
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