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Post by coachjm on Aug 11, 2021 5:07:22 GMT -6
Although I agree with the argument of HS football and the current offseason demands impact having a negative impact on the participation numbers I do think the cultural dichotomy that we are currently living in does pressure a necessity for much of this....
Currently coaching at a small school with 44 players 9-12 participating, this is the second smallest roster I have had in my 10 years here. I had 34 my first year, my overall roster numbers are solid outside of my Senior class that has only 5 participants.
The change I have seen over the last decade is caused by movement, I have about 10 boys in my program that absolutely love football, it is the favorite thing they do sports wise and they live to get better regardless of the skill. In the offseason, they want to work, do drill, strength train and speed train. To be frank I am very blessed to have a number this big in the size of school I am at. If we did not offer a well organized offseason strength and development program these boys would transfer out, there is not a doubt in my mind on that. Even now they are working with outside trainers and taking advantage of other opportunities which leads to some level of recruitment that I know they are intrigued by as a young person. We try to take a minimal approach to offseason work (get all players in lifting class, go 2 days a week in summer outside of camps, and then do individual stuff with kids at their request) however, even this approach is too much for many and I know we have several very good athletes through the years in our halls that likely would have played if we used the methods of yesteryear, however, I do believe with that approach the 10 or so boys who love ball the most likely would be at neighboring schools....
The impact of school enrollment in our state is significant, this morning on the news they stated that last year a lone we had a 4% reduction in total school enrollment across the state and that is with nearly all public schools offering virtual learning so those students who participated in those programs weren't considered part of the loss but many couldn't or chose not to participate in sport.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 11, 2021 6:25:10 GMT -6
Several coaches have made reference to declining numbers on students enrolled overall. I know that often time rural areas shrink as the job base does. I'm sure also that 21st century options like virtual and school choice play a role as well.
BUT NOT to turn this political I do wonder, from things I've read and people I've talked to, is there any type of 'blue' state exodus going on.
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Post by wingtol on Aug 11, 2021 7:13:21 GMT -6
The board never disappoints....
As we talk about numbers decreasing in another thread we have the physical punishment thread going on and coaches talking about how making a kid puke is a good reminder not to break a rule....
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 11, 2021 9:56:57 GMT -6
Urbana HS in Illinois has 21 kids out with an enrollment of 1177 kids.
Decatur Eisenhower has 30 with an enrollment of 1000.
Both schools canceled their seasons last spring due to low numbers.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 11, 2021 10:08:59 GMT -6
The big difference to me is that they have more opportunities in other sports than before. AAU basketball, Travel Soccer, Fall Ball and Lacrosse all provide fall options for kids. I teach in a big suburb with some money- the kids have choices besides backup and scout team. Can’t really say I blame them either. We ask more from them in the spring and summer - and if you are not going to get playing time, but you will in Lax or Fall Ball… it really ain’t a difficult choice. I graduated in 2005. We had three 7 on 7 dates - all on a Monday morning , a 3 day minicamp and then one week of conditioning. Weight room was open every morning and evening for an hour and they expected you to make 3 days a week. Right now we are Monday-Thursday for 3 hours in the evenings. Totally different commitment level. When I played, you weren’t really expected to be there in the summer before your varsity seasons. Now we want rising freshman involved. It’s a tough ask to give up 4 summers to maybe play some special teams as a senior. You skip this post, tog? I played four years of 1A football. In terms of time commitment for players at my past two jobs—similar. In fact, at my most recent stop, we asked more of our high school players. That’s a problem. To me, this has nothing to do with culture. It has everything to do with high school football turning into a full-time job. Instead of blaming it on the current culture, look inward. High school football has changed dramatically in the last decade. Damn near unrecognizable. I say it all the time—if I was growing up now, I don’t think I’d play either. Just my $0.02. For me, you can complain about coaches wanting to require too much, but it's their parents that require it. As I went on in the profession the biggest pushback I got in trying to do less was from parents. They demanded more workouts. More 7on7s. More summer practices. All because Jimmy from Rival HS's mom posted on Facebook about how they did X,Y and Z and they won a billion games last year. You're damned if you and damned if you don't. |
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 11, 2021 10:11:38 GMT -6
Several coaches have made reference to declining numbers on students enrolled overall. I know that often time rural areas shrink as the job base does. I'm sure also that 21st century options like virtual and school choice play a role as well. BUT NOT to turn this political I do wonder, from things I've read and people I've talked to, is there any type of 'blue' state exodus going on. We've been undergoing an exodus here in Illinois for years. There is not a single school in our county that hasn't seen a sizable decrease in enrollment because people are just fleeing the state. 8 more years and I plan on joining them. |
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Post by blb on Aug 11, 2021 10:27:55 GMT -6
Several coaches have made reference to declining numbers on students enrolled overall. I know that often time rural areas shrink as the job base does. I'm sure also that 21st century options like virtual and school choice play a role as well. BUT NOT to turn this political I do wonder, from things I've read and people I've talked to, is there any type of 'blue' state exodus going on. I'm no sociologist but from what I read it's not entirely about state populations or exoduses (exodi?). The issue is that Gen Zers (and now Millennials) got married-started families-had fewer kids later so there have been several years where class sizes have been down significantly from previously. |
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 11, 2021 10:41:12 GMT -6
Several coaches have made reference to declining numbers on students enrolled overall. I know that often time rural areas shrink as the job base does. I'm sure also that 21st century options like virtual and school choice play a role as well. BUT NOT to turn this political I do wonder, from things I've read and people I've talked to, is there any type of 'blue' state exodus going on. I'm no sociologist but from what I read it's not entirely about state populations or exoduses (exodi?). The issue is that Gen Zers (and now Millennials) got married-started families-had fewer kids later so there have been several years where class sizes have been down significantly from previously. Forget not having families, they have less sex- www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/life-and-relationships/if-millennials-really-are-having-less-sex-why-would-that-be-20200131-p53wlb.htmlWhich is mind boggling to me. |
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Post by freezeoption on Aug 11, 2021 11:11:59 GMT -6
Idk about millennials but I'm having less. I guess my wife is turning into a millennial.
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Post by tog on Aug 11, 2021 15:44:51 GMT -6
The big difference to me is that they have more opportunities in other sports than before. AAU basketball, Travel Soccer, Fall Ball and Lacrosse all provide fall options for kids. I teach in a big suburb with some money- the kids have choices besides backup and scout team. Can’t really say I blame them either. We ask more from them in the spring and summer - and if you are not going to get playing time, but you will in Lax or Fall Ball… it really ain’t a difficult choice. I graduated in 2005. We had three 7 on 7 dates - all on a Monday morning , a 3 day minicamp and then one week of conditioning. Weight room was open every morning and evening for an hour and they expected you to make 3 days a week. Right now we are Monday-Thursday for 3 hours in the evenings. Totally different commitment level. When I played, you weren’t really expected to be there in the summer before your varsity seasons. Now we want rising freshman involved. It’s a tough ask to give up 4 summers to maybe play some special teams as a senior. You skip this post, tog ? I played four years of 1A football. In terms of time commitment for players at my past two jobs—similar. In fact, at my most recent stop, we asked more of our high school players. That’s a problem. To me, this has nothing to do with culture. It has everything to do with high school football turning into a full-time job. Instead of blaming it on the current culture, look inward. High school football has changed dramatically in the last decade. Damn near unrecognizable. I say it all the time—if I was growing up now, I don’t think I’d play either. Just my $0.02. I see your point and agree with most all of it except the culture is jacked up also that's why the rigors of what is asked (which really hasn't changed much to what I was asked to do in high school in the mid 80's and my college football) that's why they can't handle it----isn't instant----then screw it, I will just go play video games smoke dope and rely on my welfare checks |
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Post by macdiiddy on Aug 11, 2021 19:30:33 GMT -6
Numbers are way up with our freshman. Normally have a class around 20 (plus or minus 5), Now we have 36.
I think the pandemic helped as it left kids hungry to play football and our feeder programs didn't get a chance to run kids off
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Post by nicku on Aug 12, 2021 6:57:16 GMT -6
For me, you can complain about coaches wanting to require too much, but it's their parents that require it. As I went on in the profession the biggest pushback I got in trying to do less was from parents. They demanded more workouts. More 7on7s. More summer practices. All because Jimmy from Rival HS's mom posted on Facebook about how they did X,Y and Z and they won a billion games last year. You're damned if you and damned if you don't. This is a very good point, and something I have considered. The outside perception, as much as I'd like to say I don't care about it, matters a lot. If you cut your summer program in half, and then had a season where you go 5-5 instead of your normal 7-3 or 8-2, it will look like the reason you underperformed is because you didn't work hard enough in the summer, even though that probably wasn't it at all. It probably wasn't even in the top 10 reasons. But if the other schools are doing it and you aren't, it looks bad. |
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Post by coachcoon03 on Aug 12, 2021 7:12:59 GMT -6
It's not dying. It has competition. And football will have to adjust to competition. Saying "the kids are soft" is an excuse. Kids change over the generations, but being part of a successful group, making friends, having fun and accomplishing a common goal won't change.
Other sports are rising at great rates. Lacrosse, Soccer and various sports are growing nationwide. Secondary sports markets (camps, travel teams and clubs) and specialization are lowering multi sport athlete numbers. Don't blame kids for not wanting to work their asses off and not see any reward. And saying "being on the team" is a reward, it's not.
We have had a surge of kids join all across our county (in New York) after COVID.
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Post by blb on Aug 12, 2021 7:27:52 GMT -6
In 1980 on the first day of a graduate-level Coaching Football class the instructor (who was one of my college coaches and a life-long mentor to me) said, "Football is under attack. Be prepared to defend it."
I thought to myself, "What the hell is he talking about?!"
Now I shake my head and smile at how prescient he was.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 8:45:53 GMT -6
It's not dying. It has competition. And football will have to adjust to competition. Saying "the kids are soft" is an excuse. Kids change over the generations, but being part of a successful group, making friends, having fun and accomplishing a common goal won't change. Other sports are rising at great rates. Lacrosse, Soccer and various sports are growing nationwide. Secondary sports markets (camps, travel teams and clubs) and specialization are lowering multi sport athlete numbers. Don't blame kids for not wanting to work their asses off and not see any reward. And saying "being on the team" is a reward, it's not. We have had a surge of kids join all across our county (in New York) after COVID. Its not the kids who changed, whatever they are is not because of them. |
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 12, 2021 8:50:57 GMT -6
It's not dying. It has competition. And football will have to adjust to competition. Saying "the kids are soft" is an excuse. Kids change over the generations, but being part of a successful group, making friends, having fun and accomplishing a common goal won't change. Other sports are rising at great rates. Lacrosse, Soccer and various sports are growing nationwide. Secondary sports markets (camps, travel teams and clubs) and specialization are lowering multi sport athlete numbers. Don't blame kids for not wanting to work their asses off and not see any reward. And saying "being on the team" is a reward, it's not. We have had a surge of kids join all across our county (in New York) after COVID. Its not the kids who changed, whatever they are is not because of them. Even if it is because their parents raise them differently, or society treats them differently, the changes in them make them different. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2021 9:01:23 GMT -6
Its not the kids who changed, whatever they are is not because of them. Even if it is because their parents raise them differently, or society treats them differently, the changes in them make them different. Ultimately they are allowed to be what they are. Its the adult that needs to look in the mirror. |
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Post by coachcb on Aug 12, 2021 9:04:13 GMT -6
I've been a member of this board for fifteen years and we've had this same discussion about the direction football is going consistently. Over those years, here has been my take away from successful schools without number problems:
1. The AD is typically the HFC and they push all of the kids to play multiple sports. They get rid of coaches who play the specialization game. They're invested in the success of all sports and extra curricular.
2. They establish a school/sports wide S&C program. All of the weights teachers and coaches are expected to follow the same program. That lifting program becomes a huge part of the overall school athletic culture. Again,coaches that don't buy in go away.
3. The off-season expectations are reasonable and accommodate all sports. Two to four days worth of lifting every week, a 7v7 completions or two, a couple camps and it's done. Spring ball if their state allows.
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Post by blb on Aug 12, 2021 9:28:32 GMT -6
Been reading-hearing for years if you run a Spread offense it will "get the athletes out" who it is implied would not play otherwise.
And yet here we are discussing how numbers are down all across the country.
Are turnouts down only at schools who don't run Spread attacks, or was that a fallacy?
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Post by coachcb on Aug 12, 2021 10:57:44 GMT -6
Been reading-hearing for years how if you run a Spread offense it will "get the athletes out" who it is implied would not play otherwise. And yet here we are discussing how numbers are down all across the country. Are turnouts down only at schools who don't run Spread attacks, or was that a fallacy? It's the "Spread Paradox" around here. "We need to run the spread to attract athletes/use our athletes better/be modern (etc..)" "Oh chit, our offense sucks!(not because it's "spread": it's not coached well) We're losing numbers!" "Our numbers suck so we have to run the spread. We don't have the guys to run the ball well." |
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Post by 33coach on Aug 12, 2021 11:42:29 GMT -6
Been reading-hearing for years how if you run a Spread offense it will "get the athletes out" who it is implied would not play otherwise. And yet here we are discussing how numbers are down all across the country. Are turnouts down only at schools who don't run Spread attacks, or was that a fallacy? It's the "Spread Paradox" around here. "We need to run the spread to attract athletes/use our athletes better/be modern (etc..)" "Oh chit, our offense sucks!(not because it's "spread": it's not coached well) We're losing numbers!" "Our numbers suck so we have to run the spread. We don't have the guys to run the ball well." just give your offense a cool name, thatll get em out.. |
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 13, 2021 4:53:30 GMT -6
coachcoon-where are you in upstate, NY. I'm in upstate also. Our numbers were good before this "pandemic". Not so much now. Only surge at the moment is indifference. Hopefully back in school will help. I usually don't accept varsity kids after school starts but this year may be different.
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 13, 2021 5:02:23 GMT -6
coachcoon-where are you in upstate, NY. I'm in upstate also. Our numbers were good before this "pandemic". Not so much now. Only surge at the moment is indifference. Hopefully back in school will help. I usually don't accept varsity kids after school starts but this year may be different. is you add the @ symbol with no space in front of a user's name it will send that poster a notification |
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 13, 2021 9:26:56 GMT -6
coachcoon03-where are you in upstate, NY. I'm in upstate also. Our numbers were good before this "pandemic". Not so much now. Only surge at the moment is indifference. Hopefully back in school will help. I usually don't accept varsity kids after school starts but this year may be different.
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 13, 2021 9:27:17 GMT -6
Thanks
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 13, 2021 9:28:09 GMT -6
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Post by tog on Aug 13, 2021 19:13:10 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 14, 2021 6:48:01 GMT -6
Been reading-hearing for years how if you run a Spread offense it will "get the athletes out" who it is implied would not play otherwise. And yet here we are discussing how numbers are down all across the country. Are turnouts down only at schools who don't run Spread attacks, or was that a fallacy? I think what you have cleverly highlighted here is the difference between football players and "athletes" |
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Post by coachjm on Aug 16, 2021 4:22:18 GMT -6
Been reading-hearing for years if you run a Spread offense it will "get the athletes out" who it is implied would not play otherwise. And yet here we are discussing how numbers are down all across the country. Are turnouts down only at schools who don't run Spread attacks, or was that a fallacy? As you and others know we moved away from our beloved DW during the pandemic, running a spread pistol package last year and planned to commit to a that pathway for 4 years to see the impact with many "spread kids" some of which were on the fence playing.... Last spring I offered before and after school opportunities for kids to work on catching the ball who wanted to be a receiver (2-4 at a time, our state allows you to work with 4) and also had QB School once a week from March until the end of the school year, our QB's set these up with me on there desired schedule in an effort to not burden them when we got to tournament time in basketball and baseball we took a couple weeks off. The epiphany occurred when many of the talented skilled boys and my top young QB started to rumor that they weren't going to play, despite never coming to the optional workouts..... I found myself working on catching with body types that were FB's, TE's, and even some kids that were going to be offensive lineman. Ultimately, for us I wanted to provide the opportunity for whoever wanted it.... I met with our starting QB and best WR at the beginning of May and asked them to list the guys they felt they could count on to play, work hard, and want to make themselves better. Both game me a seperate list, I had my coaches do this as well and all lists were pretty close... I then asked where they thought our best match-up advantages in the speed and space offense and there was consistent concern in this as well...... So we are back to our old DW, with a mix of some spread packages to hopefully utilize our very talented QB a little.... Numbers wise we are down some but still in decent shape, only one of the 4 or 5 skill kids that were on the fence is playing the others all opted out with all but one telling me when we were still planning on being a "spread" team. One wanted to focus on basketball, one was concerned about concussion and headaches (had two last year one skiing), one "lost the love for the game", another said he doesn't like the game and never has and is finally old enough to stand up to his dad on this.... In other words I think it is a fallacy... With that stated in our version of the DW, we have thrown a lot, gone in gun some, run lots of formations, I do believe our fans don't really know it is a whole lot different then any other offense and nor should they because it isn't. |
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 16, 2021 6:24:56 GMT -6
I tried @ 20 years ago the same thing you did. The few BB players showed interest at camp then disappeared. They really were A holes to be honest even before I tried that. That QB who was decent for me still got decent passing stats-not that I tried to do that. The kids said we get open way more in DW then ever with the spread. We win way more with DW. A failed experiment but I'd never have known if I didn't try it. No coach I have had since then has ever suggested doing it again. Only fathers.
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