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Post by nltdiego on Jun 11, 2013 21:44:25 GMT -6
Coaches,
I coach in CA so we can basically do what we want. I really think there is not right answer to this:
Morning - we lose summer school kids
Afternoon- we lose club and baseball and club basketball guys
What are all your thoughts on the summer? I make it mandatory and usually get buy in from kids. They only miss for summer school or if they are sick, etc. So let me ask you guys some questions I have
Summer - what is an an acceptable absence?
Can they miss for vacation?
How many practices is acceptable to miss?
Once mid August hits we do not allow missed practices but looking to see how lenient you all are in the summer when it is technically volunteer.
Thanks in advance
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 11, 2013 21:49:49 GMT -6
vacation is fine
missing for baseball is not ... football is in fall, baseball is in spring
from yesterday (first day of summer ball) til school starts again we have 45 total practices
they have to make 35
they get a 2 point bonus for our successful completion of one of our summer fundraisers
absences have to be excused... vacation, doing something, whatever the excuse is... HC or myself have to be called BEFORE practice
first time is the warning, second unexcused (no phone call or notice prior to missing)
BYE BYE
Got that last one from Tim Murphy
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Post by fantom on Jun 11, 2013 22:01:04 GMT -6
Coaches, I coach in CA so we can basically do what we want. I really think there is not right answer to this: Morning - we lose summer school kids Afternoon- we lose club and baseball and club basketball guys What are all your thoughts on the summer? I make it mandatory and usually get buy in from kids. They only miss for summer school or if they are sick, etc. So let me ask you guys some questions I have Summer - what is an an acceptable absence? Can they miss for vacation? How many practices is acceptable to miss? Once mid August hits we do not allow missed practices but looking to see how lenient you all are in the summer when it is technically volunteer. Thanks in advance If a vacation (in June or July, not August) wasn't considered an excused absence not only would I play for you, I wouldn't coach for you. |
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Post by John Knight on Jun 12, 2013 5:58:01 GMT -6
I would honestly love to see the NFHS and every state association ban summer football practice. Everyone starts in August. Mandatory Attendance is banned in Ohio 7.10) Mandatory attendance at instructional programs is not permitted. A coach, paid or unpaid, violates this provision when the coach suggests or in any way implies that a student’s chance to be selected for an interscholastic squad is contingent upon participation in an instructional program ohsaa.org/sports/rglts/GenSportsReg12-13.pdf8.6) Mandatory attendance at out-of-season physical fitness programs is not permitted. A coach, paid or unpaid, violates this provision when the coach suggests or in any way implies that a student’s chance to be selected for an interscholastic squad is contingent upon participation in a physical fitness program. |
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2013 8:56:11 GMT -6
I would honestly love to see the NFHS and every state association ban summer football practice. Everyone starts in August. Mandatory Attendance is banned in Ohio 7.10) Mandatory attendance at instructional programs is not permitted. A coach, paid or unpaid, violates this provision when the coach suggests or in any way implies that a student’s chance to be selected for an interscholastic squad is contingent upon participation in an instructional program ohsaa.org/sports/rglts/GenSportsReg12-13.pdf8.6) Mandatory attendance at out-of-season physical fitness programs is not permitted. A coach, paid or unpaid, violates this provision when the coach suggests or in any way implies that a student’s chance to be selected for an interscholastic squad is contingent upon participation in a physical fitness program. In Virginia until a couple of years ago we were only allowed to do general conditioning. We can practice now but it can't be mandatory. That's fine. The "mandatory" part is when it becomes a drag. The OP is talking about starting mandatory practice in June. That has HS kids practicing longer than scholarship college players and professional athletes. Asking kids and their families to make a six month total commitment is crazy. Asking whether a family vacation should be an excused absence doesn't make any sense to me. Baseball and basketball are unexcused? What if the baseball and basketball coach has the same policy? We're always complaining about coaches of other sports forcing their kids to specialize. I guess that's only wrong if the sport isn't football. |
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 10:13:22 GMT -6
Agree 100 percent with fantom.
I wouldn't make Off-Season stuff mandatory if I could. Philosophically I believe it is not in best interest of HS kids.
And besides - too much of a good thing, even Football, is still too much.
We have 21 Workouts, a three-day (mornings only) camp, and a couple of 7-on-7s before practice starts August 12.
That's enough for kids - and me.
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 12, 2013 10:35:20 GMT -6
Agree 100 percent with fantom. I wouldn't make Off-Season stuff mandatory if I could. Philosophically I believe it is not in best interest of HS kids. And besides - too much of a good thing, even Football, is still too much. We have 21 Workouts, a three-day (mornings only) camp, and a couple of 7-on-7s before practice starts August 12. That's enough for kids - and me. I wish we could just show up in August as well, I think we as coaches get burnt out too at times now we aren't all out on the field everyday, we will actually be on the field less than previous summers although the kids are at the school more days much more of a focus on our lifting/speed/agility |
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Post by carookie on Jun 12, 2013 10:45:39 GMT -6
We have a mandatory number of combined wt training/speed training/practices they have to make in the summer. We'll have two practices a week in summer and coincide them with our track time- so kids will spend one hour on the track then one hour at practice. We'll have one in the morning and another in the evening.
That leaves us with usually 16 summer practices each year, which I think is good as we are keeping drills and technique fresh in kids minds but not overloading them.
In the end its up to the kid to make the minimum number of workouts/practices; if they don't then they are not on the team. Most kids far exceed the number, and there are enough wt training sessions that they could never make a practice and still make the minimum number. But most kids want to succeed, and for those who slack they usually end up on the bench
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Post by gian3074 on Jun 12, 2013 12:15:01 GMT -6
I'm not coaching right now but I have issues with making summer things mandatory. I remember when I played years ago we had "optional" summer practices in addition to workouts but my brother and I were unable to attend the practices because we both worked jobs in the summer.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 12:17:30 GMT -6
What if you had a built in 2.5 week dead period when kids can take their vacations? And this is communicated early enough to where parents can schedule those vacations during that time?
I understand letting kids be kids, but where is the accountability aspect if you're not making these mandatory? I know some of you have been successful like this, but the "show up if you want to" seems to be a dangerous precedent.
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2013 12:39:42 GMT -6
What if you had a built in 2.5 week dead period when kids can take their vacations? And this is communicated early enough to where parents can schedule those vacations during that time? I understand letting kids be kids, but where is the accountability aspect if you're not making these mandatory? I know some of you have been successful like this, but the "show up if you want to" seems to be a dangerous precedent. It doesn't strike you as a little arrogant telling people when they can go on vacation? Again, I'm not talking about August when actual practice starts. Dangerous precedent? Why? If the players are motivated then the majority of them will be there and work hard whether it's mandatory or not. If they're not you can lock them in the school every night but your team will still stink because the kids don't want it enough. |
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Post by rsmith627 on Jun 12, 2013 12:50:30 GMT -6
Agree 100 percent with fantom. I wouldn't make Off-Season stuff mandatory if I could. Philosophically I believe it is not in best interest of HS kids. And besides - too much of a good thing, even Football, is still too much. We have 21 Workouts, a three-day (mornings only) camp, and a couple of 7-on-7s before practice starts August 12. That's enough for kids - and me. I wish we could just show up in August as well, I think we as coaches get burnt out too at times now we aren't all out on the field everyday, we will actually be on the field less than previous summers although the kids are at the school more days much more of a focus on our lifting/speed/agility As a coach, I am burnt out already. Here in Utah we are allowed a 5 day fully padded mini-camp. My HC has elected to do a 3 a day week long camp with 3 other schools, 2 of which we play during the season. So, we are out in 100 degree heat on that hot synthetic turf pounding on each other, and it's only day 3. Some other coaches in the area don't even have a camp, and I don't feel like we will be much further ahead of them because of the setup of this camp. We don't have a ton of individual time with our players. To get back on topic, this camp is mandatory. After this week we will go into optional lifting and conditioning 4 days a week. I don't think anything, especially the first week out of school for the summer should be mandatory. |
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 12:56:51 GMT -6
What if you had a built in 2.5 week dead period when kids can take their vacations? And this is communicated early enough to where parents can schedule those vacations during that time? I understand letting kids be kids, but where is the accountability aspect if you're not making these mandatory? I know some of you have been successful like this, but the "show up if you want to" seems to be a dangerous precedent. It doesn't strike you as a little arrogant telling people when they can go on vacation? Again, I'm not talking about August when actual practice starts. Dangerous precedent? Why? If the players are motivated then the majority of them will be there and work hard whether it's mandatory or not. If they're not you can lock them in the school every night but your team will still stink because the kids don't want it enough. No, not really. We've had one issue with it in three years. The parents respect enough what we're doing with their kids that they find a way to take their vacations during that time. The school has a history of excuses of why kids can't get to workouts. If we made these "optional" then we'd be digging our own grave. Not all good teams/kids are self-motivated. Isn't that part of our job as coaches, to motivate and inspire? How can we motivate and inspire if we don't see them? |
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2013 13:08:46 GMT -6
It doesn't strike you as a little arrogant telling people when they can go on vacation? Again, I'm not talking about August when actual practice starts. Dangerous precedent? Why? If the players are motivated then the majority of them will be there and work hard whether it's mandatory or not. If they're not you can lock them in the school every night but your team will still stink because the kids don't want it enough. No, not really. We've had one issue with it in three years. The parents respect enough what we're doing with their kids that they find a way to take their vacations during that time. The school has a history of excuses of why kids can't get to workouts. If we made these "optional" then we'd be digging our own grave. Not all good teams/kids are self-motivated. Isn't that part of our job as coaches, to motivate and inspire? How can we motivate and inspire if we don't see them? Making something mandatory isn't the same as motivating and inspiring. |
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2013 13:17:15 GMT -6
how much do we all expect to get out of summer?
7 on 7, Passing Tourneys, M-F weight sessions throughout the day....how much of a return do you anticipate?
How much are we doing from Dec - May (weights, speed, practice)? Not every state is the same, so what we actually get out of "summer" varies a great deal.
What is the worst thing to happen if we stepped away from Summer?
The ones that are motivated will far often exceed any workouts we could put them through.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 12, 2013 13:44:51 GMT -6
If you incentivize your summer program you will get near 100% participation. They will work harder, and longer than they have ever done before...
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 13:45:42 GMT -6
No, not really. We've had one issue with it in three years. The parents respect enough what we're doing with their kids that they find a way to take their vacations during that time. The school has a history of excuses of why kids can't get to workouts. If we made these "optional" then we'd be digging our own grave. Not all good teams/kids are self-motivated. Isn't that part of our job as coaches, to motivate and inspire? How can we motivate and inspire if we don't see them? Making something mandatory isn't the same as motivating and inspiring. Nope, I didn't say it was. I said we miss on a chance to motivate and inspire a kid if he's not present. I'm glad this has worked for you, as you've had a successful coaching career. However, most kids will get by with what is allowed. Hell, some adults are that way as well. Requiring them to be at workouts and to be pushed through those workouts does a lot of good things for kids that sleeping until 11am doesn't. brophy-the goal of our summer workouts is for our players to be faster, stronger, more agile/flexible, physically and mentally tougher, and better conditioned. We workout from 8-10am Monday-Thursday. If a kid can't commit 8 hours a week during June and July to making himself a better football player, then he's not going to help you anyways. They have plenty of time to "be a kid" and go on trips, it's not like we're asking 25 hours a week out of these kids. |
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 13:56:04 GMT -6
If you incentivize your summer program you will get near 100% participation. They will work harder, and longer than they have ever done before... Why should we have to reward kids for showing up and working hard? The reward is winning, personal fitness, self-confidence, establishment of work ethic and many other things. What kind of example are we setting for kids by doing this? I understand throwing them a bone from time to time, but we don't get anything extra for showing up to our jobs and working hard. |
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2013 14:00:36 GMT -6
Making something mandatory isn't the same as motivating and inspiring. Nope, I didn't say it was. I said we miss on a chance to motivate and inspire a kid if he's not present. I'm glad this has worked for you, as you've had a successful coaching career. However, most kids will get by with what is allowed. Hell, some adults are that way as well. Requiring them to be at workouts and to be pushed through those workouts does a lot of good things for kids that sleeping until 11am doesn't. Is it hard? brophy-the goal of our summer workouts is for our players to be faster, stronger, more agile/flexible, physically and mentally tougher, and better conditioned. We workout from 8-10am Monday-Thursday. If a kid can't commit 8 hours a week during June and July to making himself a better football player, then he's not going to help you anyways. They have plenty of time to "be a kid" and go on trips. First of all let me assure you that we definitely do not just unlock the weight room in the summer and let whoever shows up work out. We certainly keep track of who's there and find out why they're not there. I know very well how important summer workouts are. I do think that, once you get beyond conditioning, the benefits of summer practice get a little fuzzy. I think that holding mandatory practices starting in June and considering things like vacations, jobs, and other sports to be unexcused absences is going too far. As for a kid who isn't committed to practicing all summer not being able to help us, I don't buy it. We've had too many basketball players play good football for us to lead me to believe that we'd be better off cutting them for not being "committed". |
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 12, 2013 14:11:10 GMT -6
Providing incentives and rewards gets better results than just saying "do this because we say so". Plus, it's just fun. And if you don't ever get anything extra at your job, your job sucks. I have a hard time believing you work at a place with no incentives.
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Post by dytmook on Jun 12, 2013 14:27:15 GMT -6
We get 10 days during the summer to work on football related things. They aren't mandatory, but we obviously stress the importance of these days. These are done in just helmets. We give the parents a schedule of camp days in early May usually to avoid as many conflicts as possible.
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Post by gabehc16 on Jun 12, 2013 14:49:52 GMT -6
We have recently been allowed to put helmets on in the summer time. There are not restrictions on summer workouts. We do have restrictions on how many 7 on 7 dates we can schedule for the summer. I feel like what we do is right on the edge of too much and we generally try to air on the side of not pushing it over the limit.
We lift Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri and are off on Wednesdays. We try to not schedule ANYTHING on Wednesdays (7 on 7 etc).
Our lift is from 7AM-8AM (roughly)
We then go to the field for roughly an hour's worth of work. Two days a week we run and condition and then do a "walk and talk" installation and defensive/offensive review (SID's, shuttles, pro agility, 20's, 40's, or agility circuits / usually just one of the things from this list)
The other two days a week we do a one hour practice session that usually includes some 1 on 1's, 7 on 7, perimeter drills, screen drills, and or a team segment.
When it's all said and done with transition time added in, they usually spend about 2.5 hours at school from 7-9:30 working out and practicing or running 4x per week.
On top of that summer lifting/practice program we also attend one team camp during the summer and play (6) 7 on 7 games against other schools in the evenings (pretty much one 7 on 7 game at night per week).
The state has a mandatory off week for all sports programs in the middle of July
With that schedule we get 28 total summer workouts and our kids are required to make 21 of them. I also offer a weekend here or there or a Wednesday here or there for guys to come in and get a lift to add to their total if they are going to miss for a vacation, camp, or whatever.
If they are playing baseball or basketball during the summer FOR THE SCHOOL ONLY, I allow them to count those game days that they miss workouts as a workout. If they have to miss for AAU or some other sport that does not represent our school, then it's just an absence. We don't get in to the "excused" or "unexcused" absence. We just keep attendance as you were there or you weren't there.
What are the thoughts on this summer program?
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Post by brophy on Jun 12, 2013 14:59:20 GMT -6
I see both sides of the argument (honest), but none of us are in the same conference, let alone district, class or state...which makes a "right" answer here impossible.
1. HSAA regulations pertaining to summer (is it free, dead periods, no contact with players, etc)
2. How much staff you have to commit to being at the facility (more difficult than you'd think)
3. How many tourneys you do
4. How many 7on7 games you play
5. What percentage of your kids work (real jobs)? And kids that work because they HAVE to (supporting their family)?
.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 15:17:24 GMT -6
fantom- thanks for the clarification. We're not as far apart on this one as I had originally thought. The term "mandatory" is a gray one. To me it's not "you better not miss", it's more "the only reason you may miss if you're missing for a damn good reason." If a kid has an athletic camp or competition scheduled (summer league baseball/basketball or college camps) then those are excused absences. We don't live an area where kids work full time. If our kids have jobs, it is mostly in the service industry and they work afternoons and evenings. Like I said, the kids are out the doors by 10:00, so jobs don't interfere with our workouts at all. As far as vacations, they get enough notice on when our dead period is and can plan those accordingly. I understand your willingness to be relaxed on this because sometimes parents are limited as to when they can go on vacation. When I'm a head coach I'll probably be a little more lenient on it. However, if a kid goes on a vacation and misses and entire week of workouts he can't make those up. If we could have the weight room open during the dead period for make-up workouts then our stance might be different, but a vacation usually results in 4 missed workouts that can't be made up.
60zgo- I'm in public education brother. The only "incentives" we get are pats on the back, the satisfaction of helping others, and more responsibility. There isn't any sort of financial incentive for good work.
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 15:39:25 GMT -6
We HS Football coaches can be our own worst enemies sometimes. |
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 15:58:54 GMT -6
vacation is fine missing for baseball is not ... football is in fall, baseball is in spring And, your idea of "fall" starting is June as soon as school gets out? |
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 16:07:11 GMT -6
We HS Football coaches can be our own worst enemies sometimes. What do you mean by this? |
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Post by coachbdud on Jun 12, 2013 16:41:38 GMT -6
vacation is fine missing for baseball is not ... football is in fall, baseball is in spring And, your idea of "fall" starting is June as soon as school gets out? No It's just the fall is the next season of sport Baseball players at our school typically do all this summer work and fall ball Then do nothing all winter Then try to jump back to it in spring season To me taking grounders in June isn't gonna help you a whole lot the following march |
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 17:10:10 GMT -6
And, your idea of "fall" starting is June as soon as school gets out? No It's just the fall is the next season of sport Baseball players at our school typically do all this summer work and fall ball Then do nothing all winter Then try to jump back to it in spring season To me taking grounders in June isn't gonna help you a whole lot the following march No, it's not. But cutting them from Football because they choose to do that instead of devoting all Summer to Football is self-defeating and makes you no better than their Baseball coaches. Remember, kids don't think like we do, that next (school) season is Football. In Summer they get to "play" Baseball and Basketball. Football in June-July is lifting weights and running. Not so much fun. And a lot of kids who would play Football, it's not their favorite sport anyway. But it doesn't have to be so long as you're reasonable about your expectations and don't cut your nose off to spite your face being Tommy Tough Guy. |
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Post by John Knight on Jun 12, 2013 17:21:43 GMT -6
We had a kid that plays Div I basketball (Akron) and we didn't want him to play football because he was always at Summer Basketball games. He played on Elite teams all over the country. I guess we showed him. He was 6'6" loved football.
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