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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 15:22:22 GMT -6
What if you had a built in 2.5 week dead period when kids can take their vacations? And this is communicated early enough to where parents can schedule those vacations during that time? I understand letting kids be kids, but where is the accountability aspect if you're not making these mandatory? I know some of you have been successful like this, but the "show up if you want to" seems to be a dangerous precedent. I'm pretty sure we would have a handful of parents that would say "screw that, we're taking a vacation when we want." Also, what would you do if the family is going on vacation to see relatives and the relatives can't take time off work within those two weeks. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards Hasn't happened in three years so we'll just cross that bridge if we get there. I'm sure we'd find an alternative. We put out the summer calendar in November. People can be pretty flexible when given enough of a heads up.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 13, 2013 16:29:01 GMT -6
I suggest you folks listen to blb's "minimalist" approach to the off season because its very pragmatic and will solve you guys some problems.
The more you try and control things, the worse off you'll be. Remember, you have NO control over how the kids spend their time in the off-season. Offer a reasonable, flexible workout and camp schedule and go from there.
I worked in a program where the HC sent out a very regimented training and camp schedule that set aside "vacation periods".
What do you think happened when parents said "_ you", didnt follow his time table and schediuled vacations? Long story short, it ended up with the AD telling the HC not to be an a$$ and that he couldn't dctate anything.
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Post by spos21ram on Jun 13, 2013 16:56:32 GMT -6
Easy for us. We can't have mandatory anything in the off season.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 13, 2013 17:03:27 GMT -6
Empty: We require them to show up for six weeks/24 workouts. That gives them two weeks off for vacation. Our players are broken up into competive teams and each team is led by a senior. Teams score points for attendance, max increases, college camp attendance, etc.
Incentives that we use that cost little or nothing: 1. Shirts sponsored by a local business. 2. Gift certificates donated by local businesses. Pizza, buffet, sandwich, etc, etc. 3. Movie passes. Donated. 4. Rediculous, gaudy trophy that we give to our "Ironman" winner at the end of the summer. One year we gave a sledgehammer. That was actually the most popular thing we ever did. 5. Our team winners for the summer earn the right to eat first on Friday nights. (Free) They will murder each other for this honor.
Incentives do not have to be expensive or elaborate. But I'm a firm believer in them. We've done other things but these have always been the "tried and true".
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 17:04:07 GMT -6
I suggest you folks listen to blb's "minimalist" approach to the off season because its very pragmatic and will solve you guys some problems. The more you try and control things, the worse off you'll be. Remember, you have NO control over how the kids spend their time in the off-season. Offer a reasonable, flexible workout and camp schedule and go from there. I worked in a program where the HC sent out a very regimented training and camp schedule that set aside "vacation periods". What do you think happened when parents said "_ you", didnt follow his time table and schediuled vacations? Long story short, it ended up with the AD telling the HC not to be an a$$ and that he couldn't dctate anything. Just because it's worked for blb doesn't mean it'll work everywhere. The "come and go as you please" approach is tying your own noose in some instances, just as much as you say having mandatory workouts is. Same for your example about your former HC. It's not that way everywhere. In fact, that's a similar situation to what we have now and the administration is fully supportive of the policies of the HC. Personally, I fall in the middle. But acting like only blb's way works is shortsighted.
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Post by nhsehs on Jun 13, 2013 17:06:01 GMT -6
If you have motivated athletes, they will be more likely to come to summer workouts.
All things being equal, if you have motivated athletes, you will be more likely to be successful during the season.
So, is coming to summer workouts the cause of your program being successful? Or is it just a symptom of having hard-working, motivated athletes in your program?
I would say having those types of kids in your program is a bigger indicator of success.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 17:08:28 GMT -6
Empty: We require them to show up for six weeks/24 workouts. That gives them two weeks off for vacation. Our players are broken up into competive teams and each team is led by a senior. Teams score points for attendance, max increases, college camp attendance, etc. Incentives that we use that cost little or nothing: 1. Shirts sponsored by a local business. 2. Gift certificates donated by local businesses. Pizza, buffet, sandwich, etc, etc. 3. Movie passes. Donated. 4. Rediculous, gaudy trophy that we give to our "Ironman" winner at the end of the summer. One year we gave a sledgehammer. That was actually the most popular thing we ever did. 5. Our team winners for the summer earn the right to eat first on Friday nights. (Free) They will murder each other for this honor. Incentives do not have to be expensive or elaborate. But I'm a firm believer in them. We've done other things but these have always been the "tried and true". "We require them to show for six weeks/24 workouts" That sounds "mandatory" to me.
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Post by John Knight on Jun 13, 2013 17:14:37 GMT -6
EB, that was just cocktail hour. We drank a FEW more after dinner! LOL!!!
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Post by coach2013 on Jun 13, 2013 17:16:34 GMT -6
Football starts two weeks before school- everything from mid Aug til Mid Nov= "mandatory"- If you are AWOL (unexcused) from mandatory, you are gone.
Parents, administration, doctors can excuse you from practice. No questions asked. It still effects your playing time. If you just dont show, we consider that "I quit." No warnings. You had your warning when you joined the team.
Everything prior to mid Aug= optional , playing time is optional too.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 13, 2013 17:37:26 GMT -6
It is mandatory, but it's not. They choose when to come. And they can choose not to come at all. But if they don't come they have to pass a physical fitness test before they can play. Nobody chooses that option.
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Post by spos21ram on Jun 13, 2013 17:37:57 GMT -6
I know it's not always the case, but we have had players not show up to any off season workouts and come August, they are the best player on the field. I would not want to back myself in a hole with some rule I set and lose these types of players
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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Post by coachcb on Jun 13, 2013 18:33:33 GMT -6
I suggest you folks listen to blb's "minimalist" approach to the off season because its very pragmatic and will solve you guys some problems. The more you try and control things, the worse off you'll be. Remember, you have NO control over how the kids spend their time in the off-season. Offer a reasonable, flexible workout and camp schedule and go from there. I worked in a program where the HC sent out a very regimented training and camp schedule that set aside "vacation periods". What do you think happened when parents said "_ you", didnt follow his time table and schediuled vacations? Long story short, it ended up with the AD telling the HC not to be an a$$ and that he couldn't dctate anything. Just because it's worked for blb doesn't mean it'll work everywhere. The "come and go as you please" approach is tying your own noose in some instances, just as much as you say having mandatory workouts is. Same for your example about your former HC. It's not that way everywhere. In fact, that's a similar situation to what we have now and the administration is fully supportive of the policies of the HC. Personally, I fall in the middle. But acting like only blb's way works is shortsighted. So... A HOF coach's approach to the off-season is "come and go as you please"? Setting up three workouts a week along with two camps is some how slacking off?? Some how I think there's a lot of folks that will disagree with you. And, at what point did I say his philosophy is the only one that works?? Making practices "mandatory" puts your head in an even tighter noose because, when push comes to shove, you'll have a helluva time enforcing it. I don't care if an administration SAYS they'll back you up: mom and dad get a lawyer involved and its the coach going under the bus. Believe me, I've been down that road before. My personal policy is cut and dry; weight room attendance is pressed on the kids but there's a lot of incentives to show up. Lifting clubs, BBQs/breakfast for those that attend, etc.. However, I tie weight room attendance into the lettering requirements.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 13, 2013 18:44:17 GMT -6
I have read this thread, and I think it is very VERY important to realize that while the philosophies of off-season conditioning can be somewhat universal, the actual implementation to situations such as these is largely dependent upon the environment. Keep in mind that blb's philosophy is to do the "bare minimum NECESSARY TO COMPETE". In some situations, THAT MIGHT BE "mandatory" type practices, working out 4-5 days a week in June and July etc. In others, it may not.
For instance, if you are the newly hired HC at Ouachita High School (their coach of 8 years just left to take an assistant job Southern Miss) you will be being hired to beat West Monroe, Ruston, and Neville for starters. West Monroe's feeder schools have separate 6th, 7th, and 8th grade teams that each play 8 game schedules. Those Jr High kids have separate summer workouts and THEY must make 18 out of 21 Summer workouts. Ruston is basically the same. What would be the "bare minimum" to compete with that?
Contrast that with a prestigious private school I worked with as a younger coach. They were more relaxed in their approach (and rightly so, football was NOT the top priority for these kids). However, the parents would grumble and gripe when this school was not beating John Curtis or other schools where football WAS VERY important, and would (sadly) be the high point of their lives /YET they would also scoff, complain and "overrule" any type of rigorous offseason programs. Kid was traveling the country looking at colleges, or going abroad to experience Europe..etc. Absolutely shouldn't penalize a kid for that, HOWEVER, those kids aren't beating those other schools. Fortunately, the grumbling wasn't job threatening... so in this case, obviously your off season is different than if you are at Ouachita playing West Monroe...
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 13, 2013 18:57:46 GMT -6
Edit Above^^^^ I forgot to emphasize in the 2nd paragraph, that those are the off season requirements and intensity level/importance placed on football for the JR HIGH programs. Extrapolate that to the HS level for a potential "bare minimum to compete" at that level.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 19:27:41 GMT -6
Just because it's worked for blb doesn't mean it'll work everywhere. The "come and go as you please" approach is tying your own noose in some instances, just as much as you say having mandatory workouts is. Same for your example about your former HC. It's not that way everywhere. In fact, that's a similar situation to what we have now and the administration is fully supportive of the policies of the HC. Personally, I fall in the middle. But acting like only blb's way works is shortsighted. So... A HOF coach's approach to the off-season is "come and go as you please"? Setting up three workouts a week along with two camps is some how slacking off?? Some how I think there's a lot of folks that will disagree with you. And, at what point did I say his philosophy is the only one that works?? Making practices "mandatory" puts your head in an even tighter noose because, when push comes to shove, you'll have a helluva time enforcing it. I don't care if an administration SAYS they'll back you up: mom and dad get a lawyer involved and its the coach going under the bus. Believe me, I've been down that road before. My personal policy is cut and dry; weight room attendance is pressed on the kids but there's a lot of incentives to show up. Lifting clubs, BBQs/breakfast for those that attend, etc.. However, I tie weight room attendance into the lettering requirements. Where did I accuse that way of being a way of "slacking off"? And his policy sure as hell seems that the kids can come and go as they please. Is that not the case? He has stated multiple times that he does not punish kids for not showing up and that they need time to "be kids"
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 19:57:01 GMT -6
I have read this thread, and I think it is very VERY important to realize that while the philosophies of off-season conditioning can be somewhat universal, the actual implementation to situations such as these is largely dependent upon the environment. Keep in mind that blb's philosophy is to do the "bare minimum NECESSARY TO COMPETE". In some situations, THAT MIGHT BE "mandatory" type practices, working out 4-5 days a week in June and July etc. In others, it may not. For instance, if you are the newly hired HC at Ouachita High School (their coach of 8 years just left to take an assistant job Southern Miss) you will be being hired to beat West Monroe, Ruston, and Neville for starters. West Monroe's feeder schools have separate 6th, 7th, and 8th grade teams that each play 8 game schedules. Those Jr High kids have separate summer workouts and THEY must make 18 out of 21 Summer workouts. Ruston is basically the same. What would be the "bare minimum" to compete with that? Contrast that with a prestigious private school I worked with as a younger coach. They were more relaxed in their approach (and rightly so, football was NOT the top priority for these kids). However, the parents would grumble and gripe when this school was not beating John Curtis or other schools where football WAS VERY important, and would (sadly) be the high point of their lives /YET they would also scoff, complain and "overrule" any type of rigorous offseason programs. Kid was traveling the country looking at colleges, or going abroad to experience Europe..etc. Absolutely shouldn't penalize a kid for that, HOWEVER, those kids aren't beating those other schools. Fortunately, the grumbling wasn't job threatening... so in this case, obviously your off season is different than if you are at Ouachita playing West Monroe... Pretty much spot on. Brophy alluded to this earlier. We're doing this because we feel like we have to in order to be successful, not because we like micromanaging kids' time or just want to get away from our wives. The school I'm at was a cesspool of excuses and a complete joke in football. We have a lot of kids that don't have very good examples set for them at home and if we allowed them to miss workouts and then just show up August 1st, then they would. They had the talent to compete in the past, but lacked the discipline and work ethic to win. These workouts has instilled a sense of pride and confidence in the program.
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Post by blb on Jun 14, 2013 5:02:44 GMT -6
Not quite that laissez faire, empty.
We have a Physical Fitness Test prior to start of practice. Obviously kids who have been at workouts generally score better.
We tell them that how they perform at camp and on PFT will determine where they are on first day Depth Chart.
Also tell them somewhat facetiously that "All our starters will be at camp."
Kids who do not work out with team start at bottom of depth chart (very few ever of these).
Players who attend all 21 workouts get special T-shirt as reward.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 14, 2013 5:28:17 GMT -6
Not quite that laissez faire, empty. We have a Physical Fitness Test prior to start of practice. Obviously kids who have been at workouts generally score better. We tell them that how they perform at camp and on PFT will determine where they are on first day Depth Chart. Also tell them somewhat facetiously that "All our starters will be at camp." Kids who do not work out with team start at bottom of depth chart (very few ever of these). Players who attend all 21 workouts get special T-shirt as reward. Thanks for the explanation. Like I said, I fall in the middle of this debate. If I can take your approach and be successful, then I certainly will. But I also understand that if you don't get kids to workouts, you're in big trouble in a lot of environments. I guess once you've established tradition and an expectation, a lot of it takes care of itself. I like the physical fitness test idea. What exactly do you do on it? 300 shuttle? If they don't pass, what happens? They don't practice until they do?
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Post by blb on Jun 14, 2013 5:46:08 GMT -6
Not quite that laissez faire, empty. We have a Physical Fitness Test prior to start of practice. Obviously kids who have been at workouts generally score better. We tell them that how they perform at camp and on PFT will determine where they are on first day Depth Chart. Also tell them somewhat facetiously that "All our starters will be at camp." Kids who do not work out with team start at bottom of depth chart (very few ever of these). Players who attend all 21 workouts get special T-shirt as reward. Thanks for the explanation. Like I said, I fall in the middle of this debate. If I can take your approach and be successful, then I certainly will. But I also understand that if you don't get kids to workouts, you're in big trouble in a lot of environments. I guess once you've established tradition and an expectation, a lot of it takes care of itself. I like the physical fitness test idea. What exactly do you do on it? 300 shuttle? If they don't pass, what happens? They don't practice until they do? I want to hold them accountable for Off Season and level of commitment-conditioning, but don't want to spend a lot of time testing, so it's pretty simple. We test on Bench Press (upper body strength), Parallel Squat (lower body strength), 40-yard dash (speed), and Mile Run (stamina-endurance, more so toughness and commitment). They get a total score and we rank them by Team, Offensive positions, and Defensive positions. The only thing that is "pass-fail" is the Mile but does not keep anybody from practicing or being part of team. They do have to run Mile before getting a helmet, though. We use National Physical Fitness Test standards. Backs-WRs have to score at 85th percentile or higher, linemen-TEs 50th percentile or better. We have this Two-a-days conditioning item called "Power Drill," or what I euphemistically refer to as "our favorite drill." Players would really rather not do it. If 90% or better of Team make their Mile Time, we do not do Power Drill during Pre-Season practice. If 80-89% make it, we do it once, 70-79% twice, and so forth. We run them by positions. You should see the ones who are done or running next whooping and hollering for their teammates who are running to make their times.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 14, 2013 5:53:09 GMT -6
So I am curious to what everyone is defining practice as in this discussion. It seems some are talking about weights/speed/agility some have 7-7 stuff and others have a true practice. For us in PA we are allowed helmet and shoulder pads to be worn in the summer time so it's more of what I would call an OTA type thing. We do not make it mandatory but it's highly recommend you be there. We can not make it mandatory in summer so if a kid misses for any reason we do not hold it against them. Of course they miss they are behind.
With our numbers right now we would never cut a kid for missing summer or playing other sports we need ever swinging d**k we can get right now!
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Post by fantom on Jun 14, 2013 7:08:02 GMT -6
So I am curious to what everyone is defining practice as in this discussion. It seems some are talking about weights/speed/agility some have 7-7 stuff and others have a true practice. For us in PA we are allowed helmet and shoulder pads to be worn in the summer time so it's more of what I would call an OTA type thing. We do not make it mandatory but it's highly recommend you be there. We can not make it mandatory in summer so if a kid misses for any reason we do not hold it against them. Of course they miss they are behind. With our numbers right now we would never cut a kid for missing summer or playing other sports we need ever swinging d**k we can get right now! In Virginia official practice starts August 1. Until then nothing that we do an be mandatory. Starting next week (school just got out) we have workouts on Mon, Tues, and Thurs from 6 PM-8:30. We'll lift and do agilities/plyos for the first hour and a half then run and do football activities. As I said we're not allowed to cut because of attendance but we will start guys who haven't been there regularly on the bottom of the depth chart.
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Post by dwbish67 on Jun 14, 2013 7:15:45 GMT -6
If you incentivize your summer program you will get near 100% participation. They will work harder, and longer than they have ever done before... Now we are talking. This is exactly what we do and we go 4 days per week, 3hrs per day and have nearly 100 percent participation. We are putting out a DVD on "Creating a Winning Summer Program" in the next few weeks. A bit late but still a great DVD. We started our workouts at a school that never made the playoffs in 45 yrs. We were there within two. We attribute a bunch of our success to the summer program. Everyone in the area made fun of at first because everyone had a "summer program" and we said ours was tougher and better. When people started finding out how we did it, we became the model in the area. We give our kids off for 3 wks after school gets out, great time for a vacation and the state mandates the week of July 4th as a dead week, another great time for vacation.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 15, 2013 13:24:55 GMT -6
If you incentivize your summer program you will get near 100% participation. They will work harder, and longer than they have ever done before... Now we are talking. This is exactly what we do and we go 4 days per week, 3hrs per day and have nearly 100 percent participation. We are putting out a DVD on "Creating a Winning Summer Program" in the next few weeks. A bit late but still a great DVD. We started our workouts at a school that never made the playoffs in 45 yrs. We were there within two. We attribute a bunch of our success to the summer program. Everyone in the area made fun of at first because everyone had a "summer program" and we said ours was tougher and better. When people started finding out how we did it, we became the model in the area. We give our kids off for 3 wks after school gets out, great time for a vacation and the state mandates the week of July 4th as a dead week, another great time for vacation. What are your incentives?
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Post by dwbish67 on Jun 16, 2013 9:03:31 GMT -6
Wow, typed up a huge dissertation last night and it is not here. INCENTIVES::: first, make your program for the summer something that kids can be proud to complete. It needs to be demanding, fun and make them better. We call our program "Men of Summer" and we tie it to our incentive that tries to keep kids in the program for 4yrs called "Order of the Sword" (we are the Trojans) Without going into another lengthy write up, our kids receive a "Men of Summer" shirt, they get pictured on the "Men of Summer" poster which goes up all around the community at businesses etc. and they get a few copies for themselves. The poster also goes on our "Wall of Fame" in the fieldhouse. See pic here www.nthfootball.com/facilities_files/fhhallway.jpgIn order to make the "Order of the Sword" you must complete each summer. Incentives for this include a professionally done certificate for year one, a sword sheath with metal name plate year two, a dagger in a shadow box with name plate, a sword in a shadowbox and then their name on a plaque for all players who have completed the Order that will stay in fieldhouse forever. School Records Before: 118-309 After: 97-43
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Post by gators1422 on Jun 16, 2013 9:05:01 GMT -6
We work out on Mon and Thurs, we have 16 work outs. You must make 12 to be on the team, for everyone you don't make it's a suicide mile. Our QB is going to be a senior, he is 2 time all state and a stud baseball player. He is going to Germany for 3 weeks and a couple of baseball showcases. He came to us to figure out how he can make his 12 days, our strength coach has gor in touch with the people over in Germany to give them his workout. We have addressed it with the team and everyone is on the same page. Now if a kid decides to do whatever he is done, but he is putting forth effort to get it done.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Jun 18, 2013 5:26:45 GMT -6
We give them off from the nd of spring ball til the Tuesday of our first week of summer. We can practice for 7on7s but only with a ball and flags. We don't do much of that because our kids need more focus on getting in shape, getting faster, and getting less likely to be injured. It's voluntary in FL, we don't even take attendance at our program. It's obvious when there's 30 guys and you are absent.
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