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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 17:36:35 GMT -6
We had a kid that plays Div I basketball (Akron) and we didn't want him to play football because he was always at Summer Basketball games. He played on Elite teams all over the country. I guess we showed him. He was 6'6" loved football. Some HS Football coach in that area got three years of All-State HS Football out of LeBron James because he didn't try to be My Way or Highway guy.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 17:38:06 GMT -6
No It's just the fall is the next season of sport Baseball players at our school typically do all this summer work and fall ball Then do nothing all winter Then try to jump back to it in spring season To me taking grounders in June isn't gonna help you a whole lot the following march No, it's not. But cutting them from Football because they choose to do that instead of devoting all Summer to Football is self-defeating and makes you no better than their Baseball coaches. 2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week is not devoting "all summer" to football
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Post by huthuthut on Jun 12, 2013 17:40:19 GMT -6
Everyone has a unique situation. My family schedules our summer vacations around when my WIFE can take off. And this varies from summer to summer. Be flexible during the summer and make sure your players understand that you're not doing the workouts TO them. You are doing the workouts FOR them.
A few years ago we had a linebacker who missed every work out during the summer. He shot himself in the leg with a shotgun right before the end of school. He was twice the football player his senior year that he was before the injury. We said that he shot two things that May: 1) his calf and 2) a hole in our theory that you have to have a good summer workout program if you want to play well in the fall!
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 17:41:06 GMT -6
No, it's not. But cutting them from Football because they choose to do that instead of devoting all Summer to Football is self-defeating and makes you no better than their Baseball coaches. Remember, kids don't think like we do, that next (school) season is Football. In Summer they get to "play" Baseball and Basketball. Football in June-July is lifting weights and running. Not so much fun. And a lot of kids who would play Football, it's not their favorite sport anyway. But it doesn't have to be so long as you're reasonable about your expectations and don't cut your nose off to spite your face being Tommy Tough Guy. 2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week is not devoting "all summer" to football Is it mandatory? Do you cut kids before practice starts because they don't do "2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week" in June and July? And with all due respect, empty - if your Summer workouts take two hours four days a week you may need to reevaluate your methods.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 17:42:41 GMT -6
Everyone has a unique situation. My family schedules our summer vacations around when my WIFE can take off. And this varies from summer to summer. Be flexible during the summer and make sure your players understand that you're not doing the workouts TO them. You are doing the workouts FOR them. A few years ago we had a linebacker who missed every work out during the summer. He shot himself in the leg with a shotgun right before the end of school. He was twice the football player his senior year that he was before the injury. We said that he shot two things that May: 1) his calf and 2) a hole in our theory that you have to have a good summer workout program if you want to play well in the fall! Sure, some don't "have" to workout in order to play well. Genetics and maturity play a gigantic role in high school football. However, I don't think it's debatable that it does much more good than harm.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 17:47:40 GMT -6
2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week is not devoting "all summer" to football Is it mandatory? Do you cut kids before practice starts because they don't do "2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week" in June and July? Yup, unless they have a unique family situation or are taking part in camps/showcases then they are required to be there. It's 2 hours a day, not 10. I don't see the huge sacrifice time wise. What good does it do a kid to stay up until 2 am and sleep till noon? They get three nights to do that as it is. We're probably running off some talent doing it this way, but we've had the two most successful seasons in school history in our two years there.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 17:59:16 GMT -6
Well, then, no reason to pay me any heed. Carry on. I pay heed to all your posts, you've won a lot more games than me. I wasn't saying that to pat myself on the back as I'm not even the head coach. I was just saying that what we're doing is working, despite losing some kids that could maybe help us. As brophy said, a lot of it depends on what your competition is doing. I'd love to be able to get away with what you're doing, but I don't think we'd win in this environment doing it. I'd like to find some middle ground when I get a chance to make these decisions. Maybe have a set number of workouts kids need to make over those 2 months, and that would allow them some flexibility?
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2013 18:00:11 GMT -6
Is it mandatory? Do you cut kids before practice starts because they don't do "2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week" in June and July? We're probably running off some talent doing it this way, but we've had the two most successful seasons in school history in our two years there. It may not be "talent" you're running off - it could be adolescents, teenagers, HS kids who won't win you any games but would have fun playing Football and benefit from it even if they don't make all-state or get a scholarship.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 18:23:04 GMT -6
We're probably running off some talent doing it this way, but we've had the two most successful seasons in school history in our two years there. It may not be "talent" you're running off - it could be adolescents, teenagers, HS kids who won't win you any games but would have fun playing Football and benefit from it even if they don't make all-state or get a scholarship. Possibly. I understand there are much more important aspects of HS football than the scoreboard, but it's not a charity or a club sport. If they wanted to play all that bad then they'd make the sacrifice to be at workouts. We work around family issues and other sports. We don't work around somebody that just wants to stay in bed or go fishing. They've got plenty of time to do those things.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 19:00:03 GMT -6
2 hours a day, 3 or 4 days a week is not devoting "all summer" to football And with all due respect, empty - if your Summer workouts take two hours four days a week you may need to reevaluate your methods. It's about an hour and a half of total workout time, the 2 hours includes warm-up and closing (announcements, cleaning up the locker room, etc) 30 minutes of weights 30 minutes of conditioning/core 30 minutes of agility/speed training What's the problem?
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stu
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Post by stu on Jun 12, 2013 19:45:23 GMT -6
man... I wasn't even allowed to make weight lifting mandatory during the season.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 12, 2013 19:46:55 GMT -6
And a lot of kids who would play Football, it's not their favorite sport anyway. I think this is a point lost on many a football coach
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 20:05:12 GMT -6
And a lot of kids who would play Football, it's not their favorite sport anyway. I think this is a point lost on many a football coach I agree, but not sure what that has to do with requiring them to be at summer workouts. Again, we're not asking them to eat, sleep, and breathe it like we do. We're asking for a few hours a week.
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2013 20:12:40 GMT -6
Everyone has a unique situation. My family schedules our summer vacations around when my WIFE can take off. And this varies from summer to summer. Be flexible during the summer and make sure your players understand that you're not doing the workouts TO them. You are doing the workouts FOR them. A few years ago we had a linebacker who missed every work out during the summer. He shot himself in the leg with a shotgun right before the end of school. He was twice the football player his senior year that he was before the injury. We said that he shot two things that May: 1) his calf and 2) a hole in our theory that you have to have a good summer workout program if you want to play well in the fall! Sure, some don't "have" to workout in order to play well. Genetics and maturity play a gigantic role in high school football. However, I don't think it's debatable that it does much more good than harm. OK, real scenario: before his junior year a basketball player wants to come out for football. He's 6'2" about 180, can jump out of the gym, and runs a sub-4.5 40. Before he comes out the b-ball coach tells you that the kid considers himself a b-ball player first (he has offers) and won't miss practice but will miss quite a few summer workouts because of travel basketball (and that's how it played out). Keep him or cut him?
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 12, 2013 20:20:45 GMT -6
Keep him for sure.
Like I said, absences due to that kind of thing are excused. As long as he's there when he's in town and makes every other effort to be there.
Work schedules and vacations can be worked around football workouts for the most part. It's a different deal.
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Post by fantom on Jun 12, 2013 20:32:38 GMT -6
Keep him for sure. Like I said, absences due to that kind of thing are excused. As long as he's there when he's in town and makes every other effort to be there. Work schedules and vacations can be worked around football workouts for the most part. It's a different deal. OK, fair enough. I am curious what other coaches with mandatory programs think.
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Post by carookie on Jun 12, 2013 21:47:02 GMT -6
Keep him for sure. Like I said, absences due to that kind of thing are excused. As long as he's there when he's in town and makes every other effort to be there. Work schedules and vacations can be worked around football workouts for the most part. It's a different deal. OK, fair enough. I am curious what other coaches with mandatory programs think. Ha a kid a couple years back who was getting serious baseball looks, also was our all state receiver. He wasnt there for about 1/2 the passing leagues, or about 1/2 the summer workouts and practices. As Empty wrote though, we worked it out before hand and this was okay (he was there whenever he was in town). We did it a little different though, each day wasnt mandatory, we just had a minimum number of practices+wt sessions you had to make (and that went all the way back to February). He made the number so he was good anyways.
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Post by dubnicks on Jun 12, 2013 23:18:48 GMT -6
Wow. The only comment I can make about this is that I come from a completely different culture giving me complete different perspective.
First, I'm under the belief as a coach that no matter what I do, I will only be able to get a few kids to be inspired and motivated by my actions and only because they are kids looking for that in life. This doesn't stop me from trying to get through to each kid and teach them life lessons, but I feel I've made a difference when I can get through to 1 or 2 a season. To expand on that belief, I feel it's the culture of the community that creates an environment of inspiration and motivation. It starts with the kids watching the HS players as they grow up, going to all the games, and being inspired to be great under the Friday night lights. We as coaches will forever fight an up hill battle when we coach in an area that has lost its sense of community for whatever reason.
I'm sure I'm way off topic because of the culture I've grown up in, but our summer training program is attended as a reason to get out of work. The drive into town and an hour and a half in the weight room or doing agility drills 3 times a week looks great compared to bucking hay bails, hauling irrigation pipe, or other tasks around the farm. You tell a kid around here its mandatory and he will laugh at you because the hay, corn, and wheat don't care about a practice schedule. Then again, outside of the crops... Football is number two on the list of most important things in the community, followed by basketball at number three.
I say if you have the support of the community for what you are doing then you're on the right track and keep moving forward. If you begin to alienate your community with too many mandatory workouts or getting rid of kids for being kids. Then you may want to ratchet things back a bit.
Legendary high school coaches don't build teams, they bring communities together and the communities build the teams for them.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by joris85 on Jun 13, 2013 5:17:28 GMT -6
Wow. The only comment I can make about this is that I come from a completely different culture giving me complete different perspective.
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Post by theyoungballcoach on Jun 13, 2013 8:59:16 GMT -6
Sure, some don't "have" to workout in order to play well. Genetics and maturity play a gigantic role in high school football. However, I don't think it's debatable that it does much more good than harm. OK, real scenario: before his junior year a basketball player wants to come out for football. He's 6'2" about 180, can jump out of the gym, and runs a sub-4.5 40. Before he comes out the b-ball coach tells you that the kid considers himself a b-ball player first (he has offers) and won't miss practice but will miss quite a few summer workouts because of travel basketball (and that's how it played out). Keep him or cut him? Keep him if he is a good character kid. Why not take a stud athlete here? He is not a kid who has a commitment or maturity issue, he's a kid who has prior commitments to something else that he is also very successful at. Also, him not being there means other kids get more reps. If he is going to demand the #1 DB during the season, it will only help all summer to have your #2 passing game option see #1 DB's all summer. Should be an advantage when that kid works on the "other corner" in the fall.
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 13, 2013 12:03:32 GMT -6
fantom- thanks for the clarification. We're not as far apart on this one as I had originally thought. The term "mandatory" is a gray one. To me it's not "you better not miss", it's more "the only reason you may miss if you're missing for a {censored} good reason." If a kid has an athletic camp or competition scheduled (summer league baseball/basketball or college camps) then those are excused absences. We don't live an area where kids work full time. If our kids have jobs, it is mostly in the service industry and they work afternoons and evenings. Like I said, the kids are out the doors by 10:00, so jobs don't interfere with our workouts at all. As far as vacations, they get enough notice on when our dead period is and can plan those accordingly. I understand your willingness to be relaxed on this because sometimes parents are limited as to when they can go on vacation. When I'm a head coach I'll probably be a little more lenient on it. However, if a kid goes on a vacation and misses and entire week of workouts he can't make those up. If we could have the weight room open during the dead period for make-up workouts then our stance might be different, but a vacation usually results in 4 missed workouts that can't be made up. 60zgo- I'm in public education brother. The only "incentives" we get are pats on the back, the satisfaction of helping others, and more responsibility. There isn't any sort of financial incentive for good work. I've worked in public education for 14 years. Everybody has incentives. I never said it had to be financial. At the end of the day... We just coach high school football. To kids. That's it. It's okay to have fun.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 12:37:09 GMT -6
fantom- thanks for the clarification. We're not as far apart on this one as I had originally thought. The term "mandatory" is a gray one. To me it's not "you better not miss", it's more "the only reason you may miss if you're missing for a {censored} good reason." If a kid has an athletic camp or competition scheduled (summer league baseball/basketball or college camps) then those are excused absences. We don't live an area where kids work full time. If our kids have jobs, it is mostly in the service industry and they work afternoons and evenings. Like I said, the kids are out the doors by 10:00, so jobs don't interfere with our workouts at all. As far as vacations, they get enough notice on when our dead period is and can plan those accordingly. I understand your willingness to be relaxed on this because sometimes parents are limited as to when they can go on vacation. When I'm a head coach I'll probably be a little more lenient on it. However, if a kid goes on a vacation and misses and entire week of workouts he can't make those up. If we could have the weight room open during the dead period for make-up workouts then our stance might be different, but a vacation usually results in 4 missed workouts that can't be made up. 60zgo- I'm in public education brother. The only "incentives" we get are pats on the back, the satisfaction of helping others, and more responsibility. There isn't any sort of financial incentive for good work. I've worked in public education for 14 years. Everybody has incentives. I never said it had to be financial. At the end of the day... We just coach high school football. To kids. That's it. It's okay to have fun. You seem to be operating under the false assumption that kids can't have fun if we require them to be there
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Post by 60zgo on Jun 13, 2013 13:07:02 GMT -6
Not at all... I'm just saying by offering them incentives, whether it be a gift certificate, t-shirt, trophy, or a snow cone you will create more positive energy and create more fun than just saying, "come here, do this, or your off the team." I don't have a problem with mandatory work outs either if your state allows them. I am saying incentives work, and create a better environment. I'm also saying we are just coaching high school fotball. A game. For kids. It's not the Marine Corps. Actually... The Marine Corps even has incentives. So if it's for the kids, and it's just a game, why not use any and all resources. Why not make it the most positive & fun experience possible? If you need to use incentives to get what you want from the team, then why not use them?
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 13:28:21 GMT -6
I agree with you 100%, but most of us operate on pretty slim budgets. We've bought clothing for perfect attendance at our winter workouts and fundraising efforts. That pretty much exhausted what we could use for incentives.
Can you give examples of some incentives you've provided and what it took to get those?
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Post by John Knight on Jun 13, 2013 13:42:41 GMT -6
Look, if kid is doing nothing all summer, he needs to be at a workout most days. If he is bailing hay or doing man's work, does he need to be at football workouts? If he is traveling all over the place playing 3 or 4 or even 6 basketball games a day? Now baseball, I still think a kid could lift and still play if given the time to do both. When I was a kid I worked with my uncle mixing mortar and carrying bricks and blocks for 9-10 hours every day but Sunday. Sunday was clean up day though. I did not need to make it to football weight lifting. I needed sleep and rest. Gained about 40 pounds of muscle that summer and 25 more the next summer. When I got to college I could not bench 300 pounds but I could pin (or block or beat) anyone on the team and most of them, even the seniors, were calling me BigJohn by the end of summer ball.
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Post by holmesbend on Jun 13, 2013 14:04:56 GMT -6
Here in Kentucky, we can't do 7v7 vs other schools in June. We can, though get the balls out and do that amongst ourselves while we continue on with our offseason workouts. I'm a young HC (31) with old school beliefs in a new aged world I guess....but, I'm with some of you other guys out there that I just don't really worry about June all that much. We had/have 10 workouts scheduled from the time we get out of school through June 20th (since school has been out, we just go Tues and Thursdays from 6:00-8:45 PM).
3/4 of our kids on the team play another sport and 3/4 of them are 3 sport kids. Like BLB said, if those multi sport kids have the option of: 1) Baseball all day playing against other schools 2) Basketball all day playing against other schools 3) Football where I just lift, condition, compete amongst ourselves
....had I not played for my dad in HS, I'm going to tell you which one I'd have chosen when I was 15-16.
Fortunately, the basketball coach, baseball, wrestling coaches and myself all get a long & we get together in the late winter to TRY and plan out our June schedules around each other.
The fact is, and this will sound like blasphemy to many guys my age out there, but I/We (my family) need June. It's the ONE month out of the year that I put being on my boat at the lake or stepping off my back porch to the #10 tee box at our golf course ahead of football. I need that time. The kids need that time to be kids. My wife and our little girl need that time. Come July 10, it's back to the grind (one that I enjoy like all of us). But, I need June.
I encourage our kids and my staff for that matter to try and take their Summer Vacation during the two week dead period, but it's not a must by any means. Heck, last Thursday I even missed....we went to Hilton Head for a good friends/college teammates wedding.
Our first official "practice" day here in KY is July 15th with our 1st day of contact correlating with our districts start of school (for us our 1st full gear day is August 1st).
From May 23- August 23 (our first game is the 24th), we will get a total of 41 workouts/practices (7 of those will be 7v7 nights/weekend tourneys in July).
July 15 is the day we can start legally making things mandatory and the kids know that. Come July 15 and you miss practices, well, they know the deal......unless it's something serious like drugs or things of that nature, I try never to kick a kid off. Instead, they either run (literally) themselves off or they don't miss.
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Post by coachcb on Jun 13, 2013 14:07:14 GMT -6
Your off-season is someone else's in-season. A basketball coach once made open gyms "mandatory" from August to November; you can imagine how p-ssed off we all were. IMO, a practice or game for another sport is just as beneficial as weight training.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 14:16:15 GMT -6
At my school, we go 9am-11:30am Monday-Thursday all summer long. Typically, we practice Monday/Wednesday and on Tuesday/Thursday we lift. There is an evening lift on Tuesday/Thursday for those kids that need to work during the summer. While attendance is not mandatory, it is highly incentivized; first pick in lockers, jersey number, various rewards, etc.
If a kid is going to miss due to vacation, sport camps, etc, I have them fill out a sheet, they sign it, their guardian signs it as well. I feel that it teaches accountability and responsibility.
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Post by emptybackfield on Jun 13, 2013 14:23:03 GMT -6
When I was a kid I worked with my uncle mixing mortar and carrying bricks and blocks for 9-10 hours every day but Sunday. Sunday was clean up day though. I did not need to make it to football weight lifting. I needed sleep and rest. Gained about 40 pounds of muscle that summer and 25 more the next summer. When I got to college I could not bench 300 pounds but I could pin (or block or beat) anyone on the team and most of them, even the seniors, were calling me BigJohn by the end of summer ball. not near as impressive as your beer drinking (referencing pic of you and Terry Bowden with 25 empty Bud Light bottles on the table)
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Post by spos21ram on Jun 13, 2013 15:04:09 GMT -6
What if you had a built in 2.5 week dead period when kids can take their vacations? And this is communicated early enough to where parents can schedule those vacations during that time? I understand letting kids be kids, but where is the accountability aspect if you're not making these mandatory? I know some of you have been successful like this, but the "show up if you want to" seems to be a dangerous precedent. I'm pretty sure we would have a handful of parents that would say "screw that, we're taking a vacation when we want." Also, what would you do if the family is going on vacation to see relatives and the relatives can't take time off work within those two weeks. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using proboards
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