|
Post by coachd5085 on Aug 20, 2008 8:44:13 GMT -6
[quote author=ajreaper board=general thread=23842 post=217922 time=1219240031.... then [sic] the opportunity to effect [sic] change in a young persons life).[/quote]
Again, one could easily say that showing them that some choices have lasting results could be affecting change in a young person... in fact more than just ONE young person, but the entire team.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Aug 20, 2008 8:45:51 GMT -6
"the kid was tardy to my class the last two days" LOL, this kid isn't the sharpest stick in the wood pile is he Tothehouse? Coach why should he be? The kid OBVIOUSLY has an accountability problem..and these occur because they are given out after out after out after out... Sure, there may be punish work, make up work, some retribution.... but an out is an out.
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Aug 20, 2008 9:50:50 GMT -6
The kids were told of the situation. The whole team had a chance to speak out. 99% wanted him back. One kid said he shouldn't come back because he missed so much. His friends wanted him back cuz he is their buddy. The hard core guys said he needs to prove himself.
The coaching staff told the players that he has until week 3 to complete his tryout. This is about 6 or 7 weeks away. He also needs to do all the fundraising everyone has done before he gets any kind of gear.
I was asked by a senior leader what my thoughts were on the situation after practice. I told him what I have said here. But I told him I'd be fine with what the other coaches and players decided.
My thing is...there are kids that you feel will let you down. You can sit them down, talk with them, get them to really understand......and they still {censored} on you.
We went through this last year and that is a big scar for me with this decision. I will not be a part of situations like the one we went through last year. And the HC understands this fully.
Everything this kid will do will be under the microscope. Academics, attendance, weight room performance, etc. "Step up....or step out".
|
|
|
Post by ajreaper on Aug 20, 2008 10:53:43 GMT -6
"Everything this kid will do will be under the microscope. Academics, attendance, weight room performance, etc. "Step up....or step out".
You've given him the opportunity now it's up to him no one could expect more.
"Again, one could easily say that showing them that some choices have lasting results could be affecting change in a young person... in fact more than just ONE young person, but the entire team."
I've found, as Tothehouse did with this kid the team nearly always wants to give "quitters" another chance. I've never had a team say no- ever. They give them the opportunity, they lay out the criteria to be met (with the input and approval of the HC and I've found they generally are more demanding then I might have been), they put it in writing and they go over it with the player in question. The player gets a copy, I get a copy and the AD does as well from there it's up to the player.
The players get the opportunity to apply leadership principles that are essential in every aspect of thier live's post high school and let's face it they already know quitting is not final in life.
If I quit school I'm free to return at a later date- to the same school if I like. If I stop dating a girl I can often start dating her again at some point, if I drop a class I can retake it at another time, if I quit a job I'm free to apply for the same job at a later date with the same employer or another if I like, Divorced people sometimes remarry, broken friendships are often mended the fact is quitting is hardly "final" in life and kids know that. And depending on the circumstances it's not always bad either- many of us quit jobs because of a supervisor or another employee that caused us stress or problems we chose not to deal with or because circumstances in our lives at the time required something to give and we chose that job.
Saying "quitting" is final in life is simply not true and your players know that.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Aug 20, 2008 11:21:55 GMT -6
"Everything this kid will do will be under the microscope. Academics, attendance, weight room performance, etc. "Step up....or step out". You've given him the opportunity now it's up to him no one could expect more. What makes you say this? HE HAD the opportunity. Go to Football PE. Go to Spring practice. He HAD the opportunity, when the kid quit the PREVIOUS year and was let back on. He didn't take advantage of those. Why is "THIS" the last straw when the kid already quit? All of your arguments are 100% valid should he quit again. "Again, one could easily say that showing them that some choices have lasting results could be affecting change in a young person... in fact more than just ONE young person, but the entire team." I've found, as Tothehouse did with this kid the team nearly always wants to give "quitters" another chance. I've never had a team say no- ever. They give them the opportunity, they lay out the criteria to be met (with the input and approval of the HC and I've found they generally are more demanding then I might have been), they put it in writing and they go over it with the player in question. The player gets a copy, I get a copy and the AD does as well from there it's up to the player. The players get the opportunity to apply leadership principles that are essential in every aspect of thier live's post high school and let's face it they already know quitting is not final in life. If I quit school I'm free to return at a later date- to the same school if I like. If I stop dating a girl I can often start dating her again at some point, if I drop a class I can retake it at another time, if I quit a job I'm free to apply for the same job at a later date with the same employer or another if I like, Divorced people sometimes remarry, broken friendships are often mended the fact is quitting is hardly "final" in life and kids know that. And depending on the circumstances it's not always bad either- many of us quit jobs because of a supervisor or another employee that caused us stress or problems we chose not to deal with or because circumstances in our lives at the time required something to give and we chose that job. Saying "quitting" is final in life is simply not true and your players know that. [/quote]
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Aug 20, 2008 11:26:32 GMT -6
I have a question for aj,
What happens if this kid now doesn't fulfill his responsiblities? Do you kick him off?
If you would, which I sure as heck hope so, then really there is only one difference between what I, coachd5085, and liberalhater have said and you. We just think that not doing winter weights, spring training, and summer training is crossing the line.
Surely there is a line somewhere correct? Our lines are just at different places.
Next, questions for tothehouse,
I am not familar with the situation from last year's team nor do you have to tell me. But, my question is, do you think that this situation right now could have been avoided by better handling of last year's situation? And do you know forsee problems in the future because of this situation?
Quick statement: hopefully we all see each other's point on this. I think the AJ wanting to not give up on kid is commendable and understandable. I just happen to disagree with it. I also hope that AJ understands that I truely think the kid, current players, and future players will both be better served by not letting him back out.
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Aug 20, 2008 12:33:40 GMT -6
Silk....I don't have enough time to explain last years group. Since 1990 our program has won 80% of its games. That's at least 8-2. Last year we went 3-7 and had the worst record at the school since 1979. (In 2005 we were 12-1 and ranked 10th in the country according to Maxpreps.com)
We had two way starters quit the team because they wanted to do something else. Not because they were run out. Their parents were fine with them quitting. The had no agnst against the coaches. We had a kid quit because he got hurt in the preseason and a doctor told him he couldn't fly an airplane if he got one more concussion. The problem with this one...HE BROKE TWO FINGERS.....he didn't get a concussion. We had injuries....that really seemed questionable to me. Things happened last year that we have never seen around here. It seemed like a culture of quitting yet we have established a program of excellence. Shoot, one of our mottos is "A Miner (our mascot) for Life". You grind. It's a battle, it hurts, but the rewards outweigh anything else.
Silk these kids were quitting no matter what. This particular kid last year was a stud athlete. He has a legit 39" vertical leap. He's 6'3". He underachieved so bad last year. He didn't quit during the season (officially), but ended up getting out in January.
I have a problem with this because of our tradition. I have a problem with this because it could bring back the bad ju ju that was around last year.
To a man, the coaches (and players for that matter) are doing everything to change last years funk. This might be the most fun group I will have ever coached. Totally committed group. That weighs in on what I'm saying about this kid. That is also the reason that each case is different.
I think what everyone has said is good and there are different views on things. I think there needs to be an understanding that you can "agree to disagree". One way isn't better for another person. You have to figure out what is best for your immediate situation.
|
|
|
Post by ajreaper on Aug 20, 2008 13:06:15 GMT -6
Silkyice- I completely understand your position and respect it- we all have to coach and work within our comfort zone as professionals. I've never "kicked" a player off any team I've coached. Sometimes they choose not to accept the consequences for what they've done or failed to do and they choose to no longer be part of the team or thier choices have let others catch up and pass them in ability so they find themselves watching and not playing I've also never denied a player the opportunity to play. If you view interscholastic athletics as an extension of the classroom how can you? If the kid is enrolled in school he always has the option to participate in extracurricular activities. If a kid was removed from your class for absences or failed your class previously do you get to say he cannot take your class again? I doubt that works in many schools.
I have a player right now who hasn't played since his freshman year and he's a senior. Started as a freshman on a team that went 9-0, had some potential (he's 6'4 298 right now) missed all the off season, did not attend spring ball and did nothing all summer-asked to come out the first day of school told him he was welcome to. He'll never see the field, he's behind every kid out their athletically (strenghth, speed, and agility and of course fundementally). None of my kids have a problem with it because none of them aspire to be that- he's an extra body at practice and little more. I still coach the crap out of him, I try to motivate him to get better everyday, in affect I do my job the same as I do with every other player out there. It requires no additional effort on my part and it's not going to ruin the program because very frankly if you have very many kids who are looking for ways to avoid the hard work that is needed to compete at a high level you are already in trouble- if they are just waiting for an excuse or a reason they'll find it, rest assured.
I'd also think that if a few players choosing to quit and then being afforded an opportunity to regain thier status on the team can "teach the others" there are no consequences then I'd say what you are teaching them in the off season about the values of hard work and commitment?
What changes are they seeing in the weightroom or in the mirror? Are they getting bigger, faster and stronger- do they see and feel a difference? If not or if they are not motivated by that, you need to reevaluate what you are doing. If they see and feel what thier hard work is doing they'll never be swayed by those who choose to avoid it- never.
|
|
|
Post by throwonfirstdown on Aug 21, 2008 9:56:35 GMT -6
I just think you have to protect kids from themselves sometimes. Maybe its my youth, but guys like liberal hater (not to pick on you) seem to be that old school, beat a kid down, to build character.
That's all well and good, but lets face facts, its 2008, and a lot of these kids (wrongly) will tell you they have 3,000 other things they could be doing, and they'll do it.
I'm helping out at a suburban school with about 2,400 kids in a metropolitan area of 2 million people. We run the gamut on socio-economics, with a couple of kids who drive BMW's to school, all the way to the spectrum of kids who are Section 8. Lots of distractions and pulls on their attention.
Perfect example, we had a kid a few years ago who was one of our best players as a sophomore, but he had a big head and got into a little off the field trouble before his junior year. The kid was in a depressed state and decided to sit out his junior year. Until the first game of that year!
He was, by halftime, coaching up his cousin, who was our Mike LB from the other side of the fence, and after the game approached an assistant on wanting to come back. We deliberated as a staff for days on how to handle it, and we decided that we would make him play JV and not dress Varsity for 6 weeks, to get him in shape one, and to make him pay a price (that was a huge ego blow for him) second.
Long story short, the kid did everything that was asked, came back his senior year all state, and got a D-I scholly. And he's probably going to get to play some as a freshman.
You just don't know what will happen. I don't give up on kids very easy.
|
|
|
Post by liberalhater on Aug 22, 2008 5:20:13 GMT -6
throwonfirstdown, What about his feelings? How did feel about playing on JV. LOL! Not a knock on you, THROW. Throw, kids respond to Old school methods. Its hard on them but they do respond. I dont worry about what other things kids could be doing. I am not their parent. When they are playing football for me, quitting carries big consequence. If you do it in college you get maybe ONE Chance. And if you get a second chance and do it? Your gone. Not many jobs will let you pull their chain by quitting and coming back multiple times. The sooner they learn their are serious consequences for their actions, The better off they are in life.
|
|
|
Post by k on Aug 22, 2008 5:38:25 GMT -6
Those poor babies. They need a hug. Maybe i will hold their hand and encourage them to KUmbya with me. NOT! NOT? What is this 1995?
|
|
|
Post by liberalhater on Aug 22, 2008 22:21:38 GMT -6
Sorry, forgot to call the cool police.
|
|
|
Post by wonderingcoach on Aug 22, 2008 22:46:27 GMT -6
There is the easy answer.. Of course not let him play, make him an example... But in reality, 19 Delta is right. You shouldn't turn him away. Make him really earn it. After all he is a kid and we all go through a maturing process. Be part of his new path, not his old baggage.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Aug 23, 2008 10:38:06 GMT -6
There is the easy answer.. Of course not let him play, make him an example... But in reality, 19 Delta is right. You shouldn't turn him away. Make him really earn it. After all he is a kid and we all go through a maturing process. Be part of his new path, not his old baggage. Again, Why isn't "REALLY EARNING IT" doing what was required THE FREAKING FIRST TIME. I feel I might have a somewhat unique perspective here on this board. I have had the honor of coaching youth, middle school/jr high sports, high school sports and Div 1 football. I have taught grades kindergarten- 12th. I have taught at the lowest socioeconomic schools and I have taught at the most affluent schools (taught and coached at public affluent, coached at private affluent). As one would expect, those low SOE schools are generally lower performing, and the affluent schools scored the best in the state and were nationally recognized. One thing I have noticed is that at the higher performing schools, the students/children generally had a strong grasp of the concept of consequences. They took responsibility for their actions, experienced the consequence and were better citizens afterwards. When dealing with the parents, they often tried to wiggle their child out of being in trouble, BUT ONLY ONCE. Once they saw that consequences would be enforced, they rarely tried to wiggle out again. At the lower performing schools, the students AND their parents are consistently looking for 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th chances. They do NOT exhibit an understanding of consequences. They display an expectation of being taken care of. Of having someone always being a safety net. Of getting a different set of rules. Again, I point to our Katrina debacle and the aftermath.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2008 6:08:02 GMT -6
Just another quick aside--As Gustave restrengthens and enters the Gulf, local officials are scrambling to help those who need it. AGAIN, they have said there will be no shelters of last resort (this time to National media as well as the locals, to help cover their political hides) and THIS time they have set up plans to evacuate those who can not do it on their own. (This plan has been in place for several months ) They estimate that # to be a little over 30,000...but those who ALWAYS "know" someone will bail them out have yet to register for the service. So far only 1/4 of that estimate have registered.......
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Oct 20, 2008 22:58:34 GMT -6
Kid (same kid....that we ended up letting back on) calls the HC today. Goes to the HC's house. "Coach, my future is in volleyball. I don't want to get hurt in football".
HC calls me, tells me. My response? "See you 2pm" (for practice). That was my "I told you so" answer to him. HC works with kids. Works with them, works with them.........very admirable. I and a lot of dudes in this thread called this s**t a looooooooooooonnnnnnng time ago.
So I still have this kid in class (out of school this week). Poor kid will be a ghost in my class. He'll get my attention with class matters. He brings up football and he will get a subject change out of me.
BTW - we're 6-0 and the kid was getting on the field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Oct 21, 2008 5:32:58 GMT -6
Kid (same kid....that we ended up letting back on) calls the HC today. Goes to the HC's house. "Coach, my future is in volleyball. I don't want to get hurt in football". HC calls me, tells me. My response? "See you 2pm" (for practice). That was my "I told you so" answer to him. HC works with kids. Works with them, works with them.........very admirable. I and a lot of dudes in this thread called this s**t a looooooooooooonnnnnnng time ago. So I still have this kid in class (out of school this week). Poor kid will be a ghost in my class. He'll get my attention with class matters. He brings up football and he will get a subject change out of me. BTW - we're 6-0 and the kid was getting on the field!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Umm...Leopard....Spots.... Changing.... Now..the negative part...what have these actions taught the other kids? They have seen that you can skip summer, skip spring, you can be wishy washy in your commitment to the team, and STILL SEE THE FIELD ON A UNDEFEATED TEAM. This was my (and your, and other's in this thread) "fear" all along. You start a different culture. A culture of "this is good enough". A culture where settling, rather than striving is key. I realize my philosophy might be considered somewhat draconian...but the WORST WORST WORST WORST part of education, and the education profession at the moment is that system spends so much time, effort, and energy trying to appease/reach a tiny portion of the population that the vast majority of kids get less than the best efforts. As to the kid in question...I have seen this type of behavior before. He might REALLY have some type of mental condition where he "needs" to quit things. He might have a deep rooted issue and he "needs" the action and drama of quitting. Again, a completely unprofessional diagnosis based on past incidents. Bringing this up to the kids, and implementing a NEW policy might be an idea worth kicking around the office....
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Oct 21, 2008 7:38:35 GMT -6
I'm with 5085 for the most part. Our HC has coached for over 30 years, but is running into these situations more and more recently. This is the first time this has probably happened to him. I know that it is the first time in my 10 years here. But I also know how I would have dealt with it.
I think it's a good learning experience, but my point to him in the offseason will be, "how come you don't listen to multiple coaches you trust on these things". There were a few of us who nailed this on the head as regards to what will happen.
Moving on. It won't be an issue during the season. I don't have any time to worry about quitters.
|
|
|
Post by ajreaper on Oct 21, 2008 12:53:39 GMT -6
Every situation is unique, every individual is different and each circumstance should be judged on it's own merits. As a society we did pretty much the same thing with mandatory sentencing and 3 strike laws and most judges and lawyers will tell you they should be done away with but politicians love them because it shows they are "tough on crime" (whatever that means because they have not caused so much as a ripple in the crime rate) when in reality all it does is prevent competent professionals from judging the merits of an individual set of circumstances and making a judgement call based on those facts. As a coach you should never have rules that paint you into a corner because sooner or later they come back to bite you in the butt.
The kid was given an opportunity and apparently was doing fine as he was getting playing time and he chose for reasons of his own to walk away (maybe it's volleyball maybe it's not who knows) in reality there was no harm to the program either in the short term or the long term in spite of what many would like to believe. A handful of acts do not determine the culture of a program the majority determine that and if one kid doing this creates a situation where another half dozen choose to try the same thing what level of commitment and dedication were they presently bringing to the table? How motivated were they to be successful? How compelled were they to achieve any standard of excellence you set for the group? If you have players searching for the easy way through any situation that charactor trait will show up in everything they do- there is a difference between being present for activities and having a presence.
|
|
|
Post by tothehouse on Oct 21, 2008 13:14:10 GMT -6
I agree AJ. The every situation is different part especially. DC...what I meant to say is that we have dealt with this stuff a lot, but it usually is played out in the spring or summer and everyone moves on. Having this happen during the season probably hasn't happened....just because the standards are pretty high and players don't usually last if they are on the bubble.
AJ, I agree with the long term comment, but am concerned if someone brings it up that it's "okay" to not have to do all the stuff everyone else does and still be on the team. The answer to those situations is right here and as well. If a kid does that in the future the answer is, "every situation is different".
The main issue to me is stopping this behavior. As stated months ago in this thread the program endured two lackluster years. Our HC has averaged close to 10 wins a year for 18 years. In 06 we were 7-4 (not bad, but when you are used to winning 10 games that is not good) and in 07 we were 4-6 (3-7 on the field...1 forfeit win). The worst season at the school since 1979. A bunch of last years demise was this stuff in this thread. Kids thinking it's okay to not work, quit on their teammates, etc.
I believe there is a resurgance at our place. Our program is undefeated. Varsity, JV, and frosh have not lost in 2008. And the kids in the program (except for a 1 or2 seniors...that are weeding themselves out) are HARD CORE football players.
Onward and upward!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|