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Post by tothehouse on Aug 18, 2008 13:07:48 GMT -6
I am with you AJ. I guess the point of this whole thread is that there are many ways to attack this problem. I posted it because it's difficult to decide the best way. There are many ways because there are so many different parts to every story. Socio-economics, program history, coach's attitudes, past practice. Many many more things come into play.
I feel strongly for everyone else involved here. If the consensus say they want him back then I'd be fine with that. What I don't want to be known as is a program that allows guys to miss all of that time and then come back without a pretty severe price to make up.
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Post by throwonfirstdown on Aug 18, 2008 14:50:55 GMT -6
I see both sides of this argument, but I kind of side with the let him hang himself crowd. If you have a solid leadership group on the field and in the locker room, a kid like this may come back to the fold and get a new lease on life.
The thing I have a hard time with as a younger coach is kicking a kid out. Seventeen in 2008 is different than it was in just 1997, I can assure you of that. You just don't know what a kid has going on up in that skull at that point in human development.
IMO, bring the kid back, let him know he will have to earn his reps and whatever PT comes from his performance in those reps. But you only get to be 17 once and sometimes, us old folks have to protect kids from themselves.
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Post by coachcb on Aug 18, 2008 15:29:10 GMT -6
My two cents;
I reward those kids that make voluntary workouts and camps, but don't punish those that miss it.
Personally, I would sit him down on the very bottom of the depth chart and make him work for playing time. When it came to moving him up the depth chart, I would always take into consideration his bad attitude and laziness. Every time his lack of effort or poor attitude came to light, he'd move back down the depth chart. Every play he took off, every eye he rolled at me; he'd take a step down the ladder. I'd make sure that he understood that the only way he was going to see the field was to work for it and ditch his attitude.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 18, 2008 15:33:24 GMT -6
Moment of truth. I just finished talking with the young man face to face about this. There were more facts for him not playing and "quitting" this spring than I knew.
For the last few days he has come to my class seeking me out to talk about this situation. This was a good step. Another on campus coach talked with him as well today. He seems to be understanding our side of things.
I told him where I stand, but told him that if he repays his mates that I would not hold a grunge if he came back. Just pay the price like everyone else.
Final decision might come down in the next 30 minutes or so. Or at tomorrows practice.
Great discussion men. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 18, 2008 18:45:53 GMT -6
What you all fail to see or choose not to grasp is have consequences, no one said just welcome him back as if nothings happened- make him have to bust his butt to earn his way back, make it demanding but obtainable- but give him the opportunity. Many of you are parents and I assure you none of you hold your children to the standards you want to hold this kid to. If your kid gets into an accident because he's speeding does he NEVER drive again? Or do you have consequences and work to teach him a life lesson? If he's caught vandalizing anothers property do you disown? Never allow him out of the house again? Throw him out of the house? Or do you have consequences, make him pay a price but he's given an opportunity to regain your trust? I had a former player who quit as a freshman and I didn't really do much to try to talk him out of it nor did I try to encourage him to return the following year and this summer he was murdered- he would have been a senior this year and I wonder if I had done more might he have not found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll never know but I will always wonder and I happen to believe in teh butter fly effect- what you do and say has an impact always. Some kids need football more then football or you need them- they are worth your time and if you communicate to your team what's going on and why, they'll not believe there are no consequences or no limits they'll see you as someone who's more about them as a human being then a "football player", they'll see you as someone who's going to be in their corner and be that hand up when it's needed. And those of you who "kick a player off the team"- how many of you explain exactly why and then detail what they can do in order to be welcomed back to the team some time down the line? My guess is few or none- they are teenagers help them to become better men and just cuttinig them loose is hardly the most productive method to use. Again AJ, my problem here is that you are "polluting" the good ones by sending THEM a seriously wrong message. I didn't want to bring up anything tragic, but your anecdote, while sad, can EASILY be flipped around to serve any purpose. One could argue that consistently giving kids the 2nd, 3rd, 4th chances and safety nets teaches them that..HEY..all situations have safety nets. Drink and drive..eh..i have some safety nets. Now, the person I KILL might not have any, but..thats ok, My actions always have manageable consequences. I can speed...just do some community service. One little snort on these powders is ok. And all the other kids are being taught..HEY..you don't need to stick with your commitments either. Just be ready to do a little make up work. That is not a quality lesson to teach in my opinion.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 18, 2008 19:57:04 GMT -6
Coachd- how many safety nets do your kids get? It's like anything else a coach does if he communicates it well to his team it works if he assumes they "get it" or they "trust him" there's the possibility for problems. This is how I explain it to my guys:
Once your in the family your in. You know our expectations, we expect you'll exceed those always however I also know some of you will make poor decisions, you'll disappoint us as coaches, you will erode the trust we had in you and you'll hurt us by your actions- understand this when that happens there will be consequences and we'll stand with you. Your in the family and we may be upset with you but we will not abandon you- period.
If your son walked out of your home in upset with you and vowed he'd never return, never speak with you again that you were no longer his family and then returned a day, week, month or year later do you close the door in his face and tell him sorry but you chose live with the consequences? I'd hope not.
In life there are always people who have your back, who look out for you and step in and help you when you need it- and you need them most when you've screwed up you don't need those people at all when all is clicking in your life. either philosophy can work and either can backfire on a coach it's all in the details and how you communicate with your team.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 18, 2008 20:32:43 GMT -6
Phase I complete. Kid was supposed to show up at the end of practice, but DID NOT!!! Because he stayed at the whole practice! All coaches met with this young man explaining his situation to them(us). A few of the coaches don't know him and some didn't know what was going on. A few BLASTED him for stuff I have already mentioned. One offensive coach in particular let him have it.
It came down to "can you do it". "IT" being be a leader, stick things out when it's tough, etc. The coaches agreed to a trial period. Next....the players. He gets to face them tomorrow.
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 8:27:49 GMT -6
so what some of you are saying is that their are no consequences for quitting?
Cause if one kid can quit after the season, miss all the HARD STUFF, Show up a week before practice, say he is sorry..... He can play? is that not the same as Randy saying I will play when I want to play? So what keeps every kid from doing that? You cant descriminate one from the other?
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 9:42:03 GMT -6
Why can the only consequence be you are not welcome back period? No one has said "no consequences" not a single poster has said welcome him back as if nothings happened they've all said there needs to be conditions met for his return. If he's not allowed to return that's the only "consequence" that's truly a "consequence".
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 9:46:05 GMT -6
coach, If he is allowed to play? and play after skipping all the hard stuff? There is not anything from keeping the rest doing it? In the long run you would have no workouts during the summers and people just showing paying the consequences and playing games. "Ill play when I want to play" That is essentially the players attitude. The kids are now dictating the terms.IMO.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 10:53:59 GMT -6
I don't think that's true at all. First if a kid can skip all the workouts and play or start over kids who attended regularly then either those kids attending are not very good football players, did not work hard while they were there or you need to evaluate your off season program (of course the slacker could just be a lazy great natural talent to- it happens).
Most kids not only want to start they have dreams of being all region, all state or moving on to college after high school and it's very hard to do any of that if you are not working on becoming a better athlete during the off season. All players will have different levels of self motivation and also how much or well they respond to external motivation (coaching) if most of your players just want to play or be a starter how good of a program are you going to have in most cases anyway?
We don't do anything to be a "starter" we work to be the best "starter" at our position vs. our schedule and through the playoffs.
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 11:23:48 GMT -6
JMO, Quitting has to have serious consequences.Kids will take the easy road everytime.Most of the time that aint the best way. If you play it out coach, their wont any reason to show up. Why would they? they will pay the consequences when they want to. DURING the season.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 11:30:31 GMT -6
But coach the consquences could be sit a quarter of the season and a pile of extra conditioning everyday- no one said make it easy or pleasant just provide the opportunity.
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 11:43:07 GMT -6
I wish you were my coach at 13 or 14. Heck I wish you were my parents.
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 11:52:07 GMT -6
I could have avoided a whole bunch of sweating and wind sprints. Just miss the first quarter of a game that we could have beaten with the 9th grade team. I could have spent a lot more time Having fun playing playstation and watching tv all day long. And I could play the games that mattered.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 12:58:02 GMT -6
There you go again assuming someone is talking about missing a quarter- I believe my example was miss a quarter of the season......... a bit of a difference (not to mention a bunch of extra conditioning- just to be a part of the team- not start or even play just to be on the team).
Let me ask you this if a kid does everything- and I mean everything you ask, does he start? Is he assured of playing time? Do you divide it up amongst all those who did all that was asked- make sure they all recieve an equal number of snaps? The answer is of course no. We all have kids who work hard, do what's asked of them and put thier time in yet rarely ever see the field and certainly do not start.
So on one hand you have a policy that says miss this and you cannot even be part of the team- no matter what, yet do all we ask and you are assured of nothing more then getting to wear the uniform on Friday nights? Seems a little out of whack to me but that's just me.
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 13:18:25 GMT -6
their you go again saying assuming that is assuming that I said action A equals action B. ITS LIFE. If you are good enough to start, you will. If you are not? Get better. THATS LIFE. Whether on a football field or teaching or flipping burgers. Quitting just means you have decided that, and in this case,football really isnt important to you. THATS A DECISION THE PLAYER MADE.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 19, 2008 13:23:45 GMT -6
Well..we are entering the beating a dead horse category here, but I want to say that this is one of the somewhat rare occasions that I agree with liberal hater.
Again, I think the lesson is MUCH larger than just to one kid. The lesson is to EVERYONE here. The lesson is that certain activities require certain actions. I can't slough off my studies for Freshman and Soph years, then REALLY "pile on the make up work" and go to an Ivy league school. I can't miss my deadlines, but really "pile on the extra hours " on the next project (unless the next project is with another firm, or is the unemployment line"
At this school, being a football player meant going to football PE, and going to spring practice...both mandatory events, and as equally as important to the success of this program as August camp, or September practice.
So, for those saying "oh, he can just do extra...or there should be conditions for his return", I simply must retort that those conditions were already present. Football PE and Spring football. Without any extenuating circumstances (remember he quit once already, and the coach closest to the action has said his heart is simply not into it.) THOSE were the conditions to being on the team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 19, 2008 13:27:40 GMT -6
. What do you tell the kid that he beats out? Best players play. You don't earn PT just because you did all the off-season work. Just my opinion...but this is a PROGRAM KILLER philosophy. Again, only my opinion but I think it is imperative to instill the philosophy that off-season work is performed to COMPETE with the others on your schedule, not to get a spot on your team. This philosophy allows the team to find its lowest possible level rather than soar to its greatest height
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 14:12:09 GMT -6
Let's keep in mind we are talking about a 16 - 17 year old kid not an adult, not you or I, a kid- who has alot of growing and learning and yes mistake making in front of them. For the kid to even be able to go back to his coaches and ask for the opportunity to play says something about the kid- not easy to face what is likely going to be a disinterested or even hostile audience so let's give him some credit for even asking.
And can the lesson for eveyone only be screw up in this manner and you are done? How about teaching a lesson in forgiveness? In redemption? In 2nd chances? In suffering the consequences of a mistake and earning back trust and respect? Are these not things worthy of learning as well? Athletics affords the opportunity to teach many things and among those are you can comeback from a poor choice or error in judgement, you can regain the trust and respect of those you've disappointed but in order to do so it requires someone willing to extend a hand and say ok I'll provide the opportunity to you, the balls in your court, what are you going to do with it?
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 14:18:16 GMT -6
I am teaching the hard lessons that parents these days dont want to teach. KIDS understand consequence. I am not saying the kid can never play again for me. BUt in this particuliar case? not this year. He can start by coming the week workouts start after the season and with a clean slate. But he will not play for me this year. If he is a senior to be? I will gladly help him transfer.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 15:02:54 GMT -6
Many kids also have parents who teach them none of the other lessons either. In fact what many kids think is no adult is in thier corner for them ever (and for some they are right).
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 15:11:11 GMT -6
Those poor babies. They need a hug. Maybe i will hold their hand and encourage them to KUmbya with me. NOT!
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 19, 2008 15:42:46 GMT -6
Guys - real good points on both ends. I'm with 5085 and LH on this, but I'm not the decision maker here. I heard points from our HC and assistant coaches. I heard from the player. If I was the HC we wouldn't have gotten this far. The discussion would have been over long ago with the player in question not being around.
Our HC tends to think a little more on AJ's side. Sometimes I agree with this philosophy and sometimes I don't (see this situation). But, I'm going to stick by the decision of the HC because that is what I do.
BTW - the kid was tardy to my class the last two days after we discussed that EVERYTHING he does counts towards reinstatement. Wonder how the HC will respond to this? You see, I am not sure if the player is 100% committed to being with us. He might be 90%, but that isn't good enough for me in this case.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 19, 2008 19:20:51 GMT -6
Those poor babies. They need a hug. Maybe i will hold their hand and encourage them to KUmbya with me. NOT! Wow, that's certainly the attititude a coach and educator should have. I feel sorry for you and worse for the kids who you "mentor" There are many kids who need football and a coach in thier lives a whole lot more then football or a coach needs them- taking care of the low maintenence no maintenence player really takes a special coach.
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Post by liberalhater on Aug 19, 2008 20:01:21 GMT -6
I am mentoring them. They will learn that quitting is not a good hapbit to develop and has consequences.
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red
Freshmen Member
Posts: 71
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Post by red on Aug 19, 2008 20:17:57 GMT -6
I agree this is beating a dead horse. But I have to come to aj's defense. I know that assistants are the first ones to want to kick kids off the team or hand down all of these consequences that will affect the kid, sometimes in a profound way. Whatever this situation is, it sounds like the HC has a good handle on it. I think John Wooden said "don't treat kids equal, treat them the way they deserve to be treated". For those coaches that want to hand down all of these real life lessons, I am curious if you have asked these players questions like - What is going on at home? is something up with your family? Do you even have a family? Are you working to help pay bills? Exactly why are you missing practice? And I agree that sometimes a kid is going is going to take advantage of a coach and lie to cover his butt. How in the world can you use football as a vehicle to be a positive influence on young men if you are not willing to deal with the challenging ones. It is easy to coach the good ones. I have removed kids for not attending workouts and disappearing in the summers, but hopefully you know your players well enough to know the ones that are trying to take advantage of you and the ones that are just confused 16 year olds. I view football as something that could potentially save a kid from going down the wrong path. Your perspective will certainly change when you are the HC making that kind of choice.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 19, 2008 21:15:03 GMT -6
red--all of those points were addressed in this thread. the kid had already quit once the previous year. He said he was going to concentrate on volleyball. Towtheline said that the kid was not a "hardship" case, he was simply lazy. He is one of those who wants to be a football player when ESPN college football live is on...
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 20, 2008 7:24:28 GMT -6
"the kid was tardy to my class the last two days"
LOL, this kid isn't the sharpest stick in the wood pile is he Tothehouse?
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 20, 2008 7:47:11 GMT -6
I am mentoring them. They will learn that quitting is not a good hapbit to develop and has consequences. Coach, mentoring sorta implies you are there and so are they. It seems you've developed the habit of quitting on players. When there is only one consequence for any offense it hardly results in a balanced fair approach to dealing with an individual. It also often bites a coach in the butt because he paints himself into a corner and removes the abiltiy to be flexible and to tailor the consequences to the indivdual and the particular set of circumstances unique to that situation. And believe me there will be some parent who will complain saying 4 years ago you did this and now you are doing it this way and it's the same thing (even when it's not "the same"). Heck there can be a dozen or more consequences for murder in this country but only one for a teenager who quits a high school team and regrets it and asks for another opportunity- seems a little out of whack to me (and perhaps you have a coach all wrapped up in himself who enjoys the power more then the opportunity to effect change in a young persons life).
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