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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 11:50:13 GMT -6
I hate to bring this up and it is sad because stuff like this really p***es me off but....... Would there be any problems that if the kid went to administration or board or whoever and said they won't let me back because I didn't go to the vol. off season work outs but did show up the first mandatory day? Know what I mean? Making waves since the season technically didn't start(I assume) and I want to play? I hate to being that up but I know how all that crap works and could see parents/players going over the head of the HC and saying well nothing he missed was mandatory....... tothehouse did say that he quit attending the the football PE class, and he did not attend spring practice. It might vary, but those would be considered MANDATORY here in Louisiana. Situations like this are always tough, and advice will always vary because it really does depend on the situations. At some schools, a kid who doesn't practice in spring, and doesn't attend the summer workouts will not even be good enough to play. Program strength to the rescue. Unfortunately, at other schools, a kid could show up his Senior year having never lifted, never trained, and be one of the top kids on the squad.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 14:06:48 GMT -6
5085 - that is the situation here. It is UNDERSTOOD that you are in the football PE class and go to everything in the summer. We train at 5:45am in the summer so players can work, go to summer school, play baseball/basketball and not have to worry about a time conflict.
This guy checked out of the PE class and became a Library Aide.
I had the kid in my class last year. We talked. I even said, "this is not something that will be easy if you change your mind". He wanted to take his volleyball skills to a new level. I took that as, "I don't want to play football because it's too tough and the coaches are demanding". This is a guy who might say some good things, but really doesn't want to grind through stuff. Where guys have gained 30lbs. of muscle, he has probably only gained the weight he has because he is a year older.
I put an email to our HC and told him where I stand. After talking with the HC about both sides of the coin and some of the options discussed on this board, I still think we, as a team, should move on without him.
What if I didn't show up for work from the winter through the summer, but wanted my job back in the fall? Would the school think that is okay? This is a lesson. You don't get to quit things and expect us to welcome you back. That is basically the email I sent.
We still haven't decided and I'll back the HC on his decision. What has been good has been our communication on this.
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Post by phantom on Aug 17, 2008 14:11:27 GMT -6
Can this guy help you win?
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 14:12:41 GMT -6
tothehouse--I would agree with your assessment. The statement I was making was also showing that while off-season summer workouts might be officially voluntary, in Louisiana the PE and the Spring ball would be officially MANDATORY. This would alleviate a coach from worry that the kid would go over the HC's head and try to litigate his way onto the club.
Like I said I think the biggest danger in letting him back on is the message it sends to others.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 15:28:46 GMT -6
Phantom....I'm not sure. He is darn athletic. But we projected him to be really good as a junior and he..............well.........didn't live up to anything he was projected. And this is because he didn't care a whole lot, didn't lift, and wasn't very tough. He was buried on the bench, but should have been a starter and potential all leaguer.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 17, 2008 17:29:00 GMT -6
16 and 17 year olds make bad decisions- how many of you have not asked a girlfriend or your wife for a 2nd chance? A son or daughter? An employer? Your brothers, sisters, nieces or nephews? We are imperfect beings who often grow and become better people when given another opportunity and who deserves a second chance more then a teenager?
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Post by goldenbear76 on Aug 17, 2008 17:45:02 GMT -6
Coach, what about gathering a few SR leaders on your team and ask them their feelings on this. If they're willing to let the guy back in (with makeup running), I think it can make your team stronger. However, I definitely understand where your coming from too. Tough situation..good chance for your leaders on your team to step up and make a decision for their team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 17:51:07 GMT -6
16 and 17 year olds make bad decisions- how many of you have not asked a girlfriend or your wife for a 2nd chance? A son or daughter? An employer? Your brothers, sisters, nieces or nephews? We are imperfect beings who often grow and become better people when given another opportunity and who deserves a second chance more then a teenager? But by keeping him off of the team...aren't you teaching MULTIPLE kids an even greater lesson : "your actions have consequences, and these consequences extend beyond you"
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 18:06:17 GMT -6
Remember fellers...he did this last spring as well. Only that time he had a change of heart after about 10 days.
I just discussed this with my wife. She made a lot of points like you guys have said.
I am with 5085 here. That is just me. Our 2007 team was made up of guys like this....our 2008 crew? Rock solid. Can't wait to go. Gritty. Gutty. Street fighters. This guy? Still seems like he is in last years mode.
I am ready to roll with the crew we have.
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Post by schultbear74 on Aug 17, 2008 18:46:00 GMT -6
letting the kids decide sound ok. I hate to think that a guy who was with you all of the way would not lose his job to this one. Quitting becomes a habit, especially when its easy to "unquit".
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 19:05:25 GMT -6
Remember fellers...he did this last spring as well. Only that time he had a change of heart after about 10 days. I just discussed this with my wife. She made a lot of points like you guys have said. I am with 5085 here. That is just me. Our 2007 team was made up of guys like this....our 2008 crew? Rock solid. Can't wait to go. Gritty. Gutty. Street fighters. This guy? Still seems like he is in last years mode. I am ready to roll with the crew we have. I think you do the kid in question a BETTER service by not allowing him to play. I would communicate that to your HC. It seems like he has a history of flipflopping without consequences. He needs to realize that it is time to make "big boy" decisions, with big boy consequences. Not playing wouldn't be a punishment, it would be a life lesson. Letting him back...what does that teach him??
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 19:09:57 GMT -6
This is the exact email I sent to our HC yesterday (minus the kids name). He has yet to respond...which is okay. I'm sure we'll discuss tomorrow.
The more I think, the more I do NOT want ____ _____ to come back. I think people need to learn that it isn't okay to quit. I think _____ needs to learn that you don't get to miss the hard stuff and then come back. Man, it would be cool if I didn't need to teach in the spring, but then still had my job come the fall. This is a great lesson. I also think that our team is in a great spot. I don't think we need something like this to start off the year. Let's start Monday....rockin and rollin.....
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Post by 19delta on Aug 17, 2008 19:49:41 GMT -6
I don't like the idea of having the kids decide whether or not to bring the kid back...IMO, that is a cop-out. This is really the kind of decision that has to be made by the team leadership.
Chances are good that if the "kids" are allowed to vote, it will become a popularity contest. If the kid in question has a lot of buddies on the team, chances are good that they will vote to bring him back. If he doesn't have many friends, they won't bring him back. Either way, the decision, if left up to the kids, will have little to do with what is "best" for the team.
In my state, we can't deny a kid a spot on the team. You can't use a lack of participation in the offseason to keep a kid from playing. BUT, even though we can't deny him a jersey, we don't have to play him. We would make him do extra conditioning after practice...keep him on the scout team...heck, if the kid is any good, he will give our first stringers a good look during practice.
Basically, what we would do is to sit down with the kid and tell him that he was not going to see the field until he had earned the right to be out there. For me, that would mean extra conditioning after practice, playing on the scout team, supporting his teammates on Friday nights from the sideline. If the kid REALLY wants to be on the team, he will do what he has to do to show his teammates and coaches that he is willing to earn the spot that they earned during the summer.
Chances are, though, that this kid will quit because it doesn't sound like he has much in the way of character. If he quits, then it is on him.
I just don't like cutting kids...I think it is far better when kids weed themselves out... ;D
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 19:57:28 GMT -6
I don't like the idea of having the kids decide whether or not to bring the kid back...IMO, that is a cop-out. This is really the kind of decision that has to be made by the team leadership. Chances are good that if the "kids" are allowed to vote, it will become a popularity contest. If the kid in question has a lot of buddies on the team, chances are good that they will vote to bring him back. If he doesn't have many friends, they won't bring him back. Either way, the decision, if left up to the kids, will have little to do with what is "best" for the team. In my state, we can't deny a kid a spot on the team. You can't use a lack of participation in the offseason to keep a kid from playing. BUT, even though we can't deny him a jersey, we don't have to play him. We would make him do extra conditioning after practice...keep him on the scout team...heck, if the kid is any good, he will give our first stringers a good look during practice. Basically, what we would do is to sit down with the kid and tell him that he was not going to see the field until he had earned the right to be out there. For me, that would mean extra conditioning after practice, playing on the scout team, supporting his teammates on Friday nights from the sideline. If the kid REALLY wants to be on the team, he will do what he has to do to show his teammates and coaches that he is willing to earn the spot that they earned during the summer. Chances are, though, that this kid will quit because it doesn't sound like he has much in the way of character. If he quits, then it is on him. I just don't like cutting kids...I think it is far better when kids weed themselves out... ;D Delta---what about the fact that this kid in question ALSO took himself out of the football pe class, AND spring training..both of which would not be voluntary off-season activities.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 17, 2008 20:21:54 GMT -6
16 and 17 year olds make bad decisions- how many of you have not asked a girlfriend or your wife for a 2nd chance? A son or daughter? An employer? Your brothers, sisters, nieces or nephews? We are imperfect beings who often grow and become better people when given another opportunity and who deserves a second chance more then a teenager? I agree that kids need 2nd chances. I always give a player a day or two to think about coming back, if he quits or does something stupid one day. A kid deserves a 2nd chance for a quick non-rational emotional decision. We all do. But this kid quit 6 months ago and never came back for winter lifting, spring training, or summer lifting. There is no way this kid would get back on the team. This isn't just talk either. I have not let at least 8 kids play this year. These kids did 2nd semester lifting and spring training. They even did some summer training, but just quit showing up for summer workouts. I called them and told them they had to start coming or there would be consequences. A few came back up and then quit coming, some never came back at all. None are on the team right now. They understood that by not coming back, they wouldn't be on the team. A few showed up on the first or second day of practice. I had to tell them sorry. Thank goodness all of these kids are underclassmen. I expect at least half of them come back out next year and stick it out. Last year was my first year at this school and the same thing happened. Plenty of those guys from last year are on the team right now. I really think that if this kid plays, it could dramatically hurt your program this year and for sure in the future. You and your staff will spend an inordinate amount of time on this player right now. You will make sure that he makes up the running, that he gets caught up, that he is buying in, that isn't being a problem, etc. All of this distraction just so he can start playing by the 4th ball game. He is behind now and will be way behind in game experience by the 4th game. Plus, you will have to worry about the emotions of the team and the player who he replaces. Besides your program future and the rest of the team and players, I think the best thing you can do for this kid's future is to not let him come back. He will have someone holding him accountable. He will learn a lesson that will hopefully change his life if he will let it. Isn't that what athletics is about?
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Post by 19delta on Aug 17, 2008 20:27:42 GMT -6
I don't like the idea of having the kids decide whether or not to bring the kid back...IMO, that is a cop-out. This is really the kind of decision that has to be made by the team leadership. Chances are good that if the "kids" are allowed to vote, it will become a popularity contest. If the kid in question has a lot of buddies on the team, chances are good that they will vote to bring him back. If he doesn't have many friends, they won't bring him back. Either way, the decision, if left up to the kids, will have little to do with what is "best" for the team. In my state, we can't deny a kid a spot on the team. You can't use a lack of participation in the offseason to keep a kid from playing. BUT, even though we can't deny him a jersey, we don't have to play him. We would make him do extra conditioning after practice...keep him on the scout team...heck, if the kid is any good, he will give our first stringers a good look during practice. Basically, what we would do is to sit down with the kid and tell him that he was not going to see the field until he had earned the right to be out there. For me, that would mean extra conditioning after practice, playing on the scout team, supporting his teammates on Friday nights from the sideline. If the kid REALLY wants to be on the team, he will do what he has to do to show his teammates and coaches that he is willing to earn the spot that they earned during the summer. Chances are, though, that this kid will quit because it doesn't sound like he has much in the way of character. If he quits, then it is on him. I just don't like cutting kids...I think it is far better when kids weed themselves out... ;D Delta---what about the fact that this kid in question ALSO took himself out of the football pe class, AND spring training..both of which would not be voluntary off-season activities. In my state, we don't have spring ball and most schools don't have a "football"-only PE class (although some schools offer a "Zero Hour" PE class that is held prior to 1st Period), so those two points would be largely moot. If, on the other hand, you coach in a state where off-season activities are NOT voluntary, then I think this issue is pretty cut-and-dry. The kid CLEARLY has not met the expectations to be a member of this team. H e l l, I would go as far to say that you can argue that keeping the kid off the team would be a safety issue...if participation in offseason activities is mandatory, I highly doubt that this kid would be physically prepared enough to compete with boys who had been working all offseason.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 20:34:14 GMT -6
This is the exact email I sent to our HC yesterday (minus the kids name). He has yet to respond...which is okay. I'm sure we'll discuss tomorrow. The more I think, the more I do NOT want ____ _____ to come back. I think people need to learn that it isn't okay to quit. I think _____ needs to learn that you don't get to miss the hard stuff and then come back. Man, it would be cool if I didn't need to teach in the spring, but then still had my job come the fall. This is a great lesson. I also think that our team is in a great spot. I don't think we need something like this to start off the year. Let's start Monday....rockin and rollin..... I echo those thoughts. The kid not playing teaches EVERYONE a lesson. The boy learns that his actions have consequences, the other players learn that there is a payoff for dedication, and a consequence for quitting.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 20:36:28 GMT -6
To me..the only way I'd feel comfortable with him coming back is the way some of you have stated it. I know he'd sit the first three games. But I am also recommending that for all the time leading up to the first game and through the 3 games he'd miss that it is his "try out". I am also recommending that he should make up the conditioning everyone else did AND the fundraising everyone else did. You want to come back? You get to the grind like everyone else.
If he is crappy in the weight room, pouty, not buying in, distracting the other players that are on a mission they we have the right to say "see ya". Like many of you have said. If he pulls through everything he would go through to come back then good, he has proven himself to the coaches and more importantly, the players and he can compete for a job.
Those are the conditions under which I think he could return. But as silk stated and 5085 has said....it's energy. We'd have to watch him extra and really be on his case. I don't mind doing that, but I'd rather spend that energy on the dudes who have done everything so far.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 17, 2008 21:42:40 GMT -6
How can you impact a kids life if he's not around? I had this discussion years ago with my high school HC when I was a young coach and I'll never forget his reply:
He said thousands of years ago someone much wiser then you or I was asked "how many times do you forgive them"? And the answer was "as many times as it takes". He said have consequences for what the kid has done or failed to do but never quit on him or run him off as you may be the last best chance that kid has to get things "figured out".
Give him the opportunity to earn his way back- let him give up on himself but you don't give up on him.
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Post by coachal70 on Aug 17, 2008 21:51:04 GMT -6
I'd listen to hear why he gave up on football in the winter. Were there some off the field issues going on at home, etc. If you're black and white, then pin him down to black and white, don't accept gray from him. I think he is a kid, can you prevent a kid from playing because he missed non-mandatory stuff? No you cannot, BUT...you don't have to put him on the top of the depth chart and YOU don't have to play him. AND if he does come back..I most certainly wouldn't put any eggs in his basket. But in the end, I would follow what the players vote on. If they say let him back on, fine, if they say No Way, I'm fine with that too. HE IS NOT NECESSARY. I totally agree with dcohio. You let him back, but he must earn his reps and make up for time lost. The OTAs (Optional Training Activities) are where a lot of the fine tuning is done both offensively and defensively. If he is willing to put in the extra work, then he can earn his time. More often than not these kids don't stick it out and quit.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 21:51:59 GMT -6
aj - I also have the kid in class. I see him everyday. Haven't given up on him. As far as the "let him give up on himself" comment.... he has twice.
And he hasn't only given up twice on me. He has given up twice to his former teammates. It isn't a revolving door at our place. In the past...guys like him....nobody would talk to him for quitting. I'm talking about the players.
I think we owe our full energy to the other guys grinding it out.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 17, 2008 22:18:46 GMT -6
How can you impact a kids life if he's not around? I had this discussion years ago with my high school HC when I was a young coach and I'll never forget his reply: Impacts are not just made by being around. An impact can be made by standing firm. Great example: We have a new coach on staff from a rival school. We also have a new transfer player from a different high school that was at the new coaches old school when he was in junior high. Confusing, sorry. Anyway, this player is good. When we were discussing our players with the new coach, he didn't even remember this kid. On the first day that we were at practice, the new kid tells the new coach that the coach had kicked him off the team in junior high. He told the coach that it changed his life. The coach then went on to tell me that the player wasn't even any good back then, but he has been motivated to work hard and stay out of trouble since then. Translation: kicking the kid off impacted then individual in a positive way. It also impacted the team in positive way since they went undefeated. It also impacted the individual players since they knew there was a line and there would be consequences for crossing it. Next point, the coach who changed his life never would have even known if this kid hadn't moved to our town or if the coach hadn't come to work for us.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 22:35:54 GMT -6
In 1999 I was the HC of a varsity baseball team that HAD TALENT. But it was a dysfunctional talent. I could type a 5 page letter about this group and the negative that engulfed this team by numerous guys. A couple quick notes...
1. I ended up kicking 6 guys off the team. A couple took care of themselves while others I had to take care of. HAD TO. After 8 games we had 11 players on the team. That's it. 9 in the field, a relief pitcher, and a utility kid. When the relief pitcher warmed up with the other guy....I was alone in the dugout....NO ASSISTANT coaches. Anyway. After the last guy left our team........we rattled off 16 straight victories!!!!!!!!! We ended up fading at the end, but we won the league title and got into the playoffs. Our catcher came up to me the last week of the season. This is a TOUGH NUT kid who was a, flat out, ballplayer. He says to me candidly, "Coach, we wouldn't have done any of this with those other guys around". BINGO!!!!!!!
2. The day after our playoff loss I found out I was moving to my current job. The baseball team I left was young. 6 juniors, 2 sophs, and a 1 senior starter. The next season they made it to the D1 (highest level) championship game. I had to go see this game even though I lived miles away. I showed up early and tried to avoid people. I happened to turn into the bleachers where all the parents had decided to sit. When I turned and looked up one of the dads of the players says, "there is the guy who got us here". Referring to what I had done the previous year getting rid of guys. All of the other parents heard this comment and STOOD UP AND GAVE ME A STANDING OVATION!! I still can't believe that.
The team went on to win the championship game on a SQUEEZE bunt. I was extremely happy for those guys. 2 of them are in major league organizations still. One had a "cup of coffee" in the "bigs" and won a national championship for Fullerton State.
I'd like to think that by keeping those other guys around would have really changed the other guys paths.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 17, 2008 22:56:27 GMT -6
How can you impact a kids life if he's not around? I had this discussion years ago with my high school HC when I was a young coach and I'll never forget his reply: He said thousands of years ago someone much wiser then you or I was asked "how many times do you forgive them"? And the answer was "as many times as it takes". He said have consequences for what the kid has done or failed to do but never quit on him or run him off as you may be the last best chance that kid has to get things "figured out". Give him the opportunity to earn his way back- let him give up on himself but you don't give up on him. Again, in this scenario...you are telling him, and EVERYONE ELSE...that there are safety nets after safety nets in life. This is not the case. Remember, this kid ALREADY did this..he already quit once. What did he learn from this? Absolutely nothing...he quit the PREVIOUS spring..was let back on 10 days later. What was the lesson learned??? That if he quits, he will be welcomed back. Now he is trying to repeat those actions, with an even longer layoff. And why shouldn't he. He has been "told" through actions that this is acceptable behavior. Not to stray TOO far from football and into social commentary, but I saw a great example of "learned" behavior first hand 3 years ago when Katrina hit. The New Orleans public were told "WE DO NOT HAVE SUPPLIES FOR YOU. WE DO NOT HAVE A SHELTER OF LAST RESORT. WE CAN NOT KEEP YOU SAFE". You saw the result, and of course everyone focuses on the errors of the government. While there was a great deal of ineptitude on that front, the media completely ignored (and therefore the vast majority of the public outside of the area are ignorant of ) the fact that much of that would have been avoided if the PEOPLE WOULD HAVE LEFT as told. Why didn't they? Because...a great majority of the population has ALWAYS been bailed out by others. There was always a safety net. Always second chances. Why should they think otherwise? And thus, one of the nations less than stellar moments was the result of people simply reacting in a manner they have been "trained" to do. I GUARANTEE you that the next time a storm is coming up the Miss. River, and the city/state says "We do not have a shelter for you" the result will be quite different. The same could be said in this situation. The young athlete in question is being "trained" to expect second chances. Trained to have actions without consequences. And the rest of the team is seeing it too. They are being trained "hey..you know...we don't REALLLY have to stick this out... we can always leave..and come back if we want to."
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 17, 2008 23:14:26 GMT -6
5085 - you have grasped the situation about as if you were me.
I will stick with the HC if he brings him back, but all of the things said here will be brought up. I am HUGE on giving guys chances. But c'mon.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 18, 2008 11:18:26 GMT -6
What you all fail to see or choose not to grasp is have consequences, no one said just welcome him back as if nothings happened- make him have to bust his butt to earn his way back, make it demanding but obtainable- but give him the opportunity.
Many of you are parents and I assure you none of you hold your children to the standards you want to hold this kid to. If your kid gets into an accident because he's speeding does he NEVER drive again? Or do you have consequences and work to teach him a life lesson? If he's caught vandalizing anothers property do you disown? Never allow him out of the house again? Throw him out of the house? Or do you have consequences, make him pay a price but he's given an opportunity to regain your trust?
I had a former player who quit as a freshman and I didn't really do much to try to talk him out of it nor did I try to encourage him to return the following year and this summer he was murdered- he would have been a senior this year and I wonder if I had done more might he have not found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll never know but I will always wonder and I happen to believe in teh butter fly effect- what you do and say has an impact always. Some kids need football more then football or you need them- they are worth your time and if you communicate to your team what's going on and why, they'll not believe there are no consequences or no limits they'll see you as someone who's more about them as a human being then a "football player", they'll see you as someone who's going to be in their corner and be that hand up when it's needed.
And those of you who "kick a player off the team"- how many of you explain exactly why and then detail what they can do in order to be welcomed back to the team some time down the line? My guess is few or none- they are teenagers help them to become better men and just cuttinig them loose is hardly the most productive method to use.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 18, 2008 11:58:11 GMT -6
AJ - I get you but, playing football is a privilege.
If this was my kid he wouldn't have quit the first time. If he did, I sure as heck wouldn't let him quit a second time and try to come back. As far as your other life examples. Sure, my kids will get second chances with driving and such. But when talk about examples of selfishness and acts that only involved the one kid that is different to me. Letting down teammates or co-workers? That is different to me.
Our booster club presidents kid quit just like this kid did last year. Exact same thing. Kid tried to come back in the fall. BOTH OF HIS PARENTS TOLD HIM HE COULD NOT COME BACK. Because they knew what everyone else went through and respected the program.
And this kid has NOT been kicked off the team. He isn't ON the team because of what he choose. This isn't on US. We have to decide to let him back. He was NEVER forced out.
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Post by wingt74 on Aug 18, 2008 12:13:45 GMT -6
Are you talking about Favre? Seriously, put the kid back on the team, but set some rules, and be very strict with them. Make him fight for a starting spot. Sounds like he'll get it...but let the kid play some ball. At least he is realizing he made a mistake. I know people that regret quitting football. 1. Would it be an issue if the guy wasn't a potentially a good player? If a poor athelete was in the same situation, my decision wouldn't change. 2. What would happen if he came in a took a guys spot that has been through everything? It's tough, but that's life. 3. What if the kid really has a change of heart and could contribute big time? Whether he can or can't, let him play. 4. What do you tell the kid that he beats out? Best players play. You don't earn PT just because you did all the off-season work. Put this kid on a short leash. If he dogs it in practice, or in a game...pulls his butt, make him work harder. You'll find out pretty quick if he REALLY wants to play football again.
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Post by tothehouse on Aug 18, 2008 12:17:13 GMT -6
Again....I agree with that wingt. I would accept that. Our HC will decide and I will back him any way he goes with this. If he did get to come back I would hope it would fall under what you and others have said.
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Post by ajreaper on Aug 18, 2008 12:44:38 GMT -6
Tothehouse- I know where you are coming from and I often have to fight my urge to take a hard line (meaning one which affords the athlete no opportunity) but I always remind myself if he's here, if he's around me, the other coaches and players we can have an impact, we can help him be a better man- and I fully admit we'll be able to "save" perhaps 1 out of 10 of these kids who are prone to this but it's better then none and it adds up over the years.
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