|
Post by davecisar on Jun 18, 2006 19:50:04 GMT -6
Amen to that. BTW I was one of those coaches long ago, not one that thought I knew everything, but one that thought I knew the game well enough and better than most. Then I had a 2-8 year with a pretty descent team. We lost a lot of 12-6 games, but I looked at the teams that won, they were the same coaches every year, regardless of talent. I knew we were not playing to potential. The next year a HS DC from Canyon Springs Cal USA Today National Championship team moved here and coached the kids I had that moved up within my org.. They went 11-0, I knew we had to make some big changes. We took his Defense, and practice methodology, he taught us. I studied in depth both the best and worst youth and HS teams in the area and even the nation. We changed our offense, everything. Now we are the dominant program, why? Because we recognized we were being outcoached. Since then gone 51-1 with my fall teams ( 4 different teams in 5 Diff leagues) and golly wish I had back some of those teams I did such a poor job with. The great programs had a lot in common, so did the poor programs. Only diifference between me and the poor coach is Im honest with myself and open to change, they wont be ala the excuse maker.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 18, 2006 20:54:06 GMT -6
"Open to change"- that's a philosophy that I abide by and always will. As far as I am concerned- if the scheme works with a particular group of kids, use it. If it's not working, be smart enough to have already installed a plan B or be ready to get it in there.
I have had several coaches really come to dislike me because I won't blame losses on the kids. I do my best to not point fingers, but they know how I what I'm talking about when I tell them that its not a problem with the kids. The first thing I do when we take one on the chin is look to see what I can do to better prepare my kids for the next game. The reason is simple- ITS THE ONLY THING I CAN CONTROL! The drills I run, the way I communicate with the kids etc- they're the only things that I can directly impact in a lot of situations. Last season I banged my head against a wall trying to get our OC (our "halo violation fellow) to take an analytical look at what we were doing and to fix some stuff. Didn't do any good, so I backed off, kept my mouth shut and focused on getting my RBs and LBs ready to play.
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Jun 19, 2006 3:45:00 GMT -6
Honestly, its rare that a well coached team wins only one or two games...wouldnt you agree? I agree with that statement but I would ammend it by saying even the best coach cannot make a 5.5 WR (yes you read that right 5.5 in the 40) run a 4.8. In other words you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken...you know what. But I do agree if things are close to competitive a well coached team should win more than 1-2 games. (If you mean making winners out of losers?) then i have made chicken salad out of chicken sheist twice so i am not sure i entirely agree with that phrase, sort of like the "it aint the xs and os, its the jimmies and joes" losing coaches mantra...if you got a slow wr, dont use formations that require a wr. pack it in and run double tight! if i ever heard a coach complain that he had no talent and thats why he went 1-9 or whatever, id probably say "so why are you trying to run a pro style offense?"
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 19, 2006 4:17:34 GMT -6
I agree with that statement but I would ammend it by saying even the best coach cannot make a 5.5 WR (yes you read that right 5.5 in the 40) run a 4.8. In other words you cannot make chicken salad out of chicken...you know what. But I do agree if things are close to competitive a well coached team should win more than 1-2 games. (If you mean making winners out of losers?) then i have made chicken salad out of chicken sheist twice so i am not sure i entirely agree with that phrase, sort of like the "it aint the xs and os, its the jimmies and joes" losing coaches mantra...if you got a slow wr, dont use formations that require a wr. pack it in and run double tight! if i ever heard a coach complain that he had no talent and thats why he went 1-9 or whatever, id probably say "so why are you trying to run a pro style offense?" Totally agree but what I mean is the place that is run down, no talent, no one (or very few) care from the administration on down to the kids, and there is no support. I just left a place like that. I would never excuse a coach (including myself) of all blame. But there are situations where you cannot win consistantly. It was across the board in football, basketball, and baseball. Hoops would win 2 games a year, as would baseball with the same kids.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 19, 2006 6:00:20 GMT -6
There are more good football coaches than there are good football programs.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 19, 2006 7:36:09 GMT -6
There are more good football coaches than there are good football programs. Well said. That is my point.
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Jun 19, 2006 9:05:39 GMT -6
I'm with Chuck on this one...there are some situations that are basically no-win. At a school like the one Chuck worked at, losing is institutionalized. It's not just the football team...all sports in the school aren't competitive at all. The student population is apathetic, parents don't care, and the administration doesn't support coaches.
Can a program like that be turned around? Possibly, but we are not talking about simple things like getting kids in the weight room or convincing the booster club to buy new uniforms or not having a lot of speed, size, or numbers. Those are all relatively simple problems. We are talking about a wholesale culture change and unless you, as a coach, are willing to put up with years of abuse, neglect, and banging bloody fists against solidly locked doors, it simply isn't worth it to stay.
Give the kids all of your love, knowledge, and experience. However, at some point, the kids (and parents, administrators, and other coaches) have to give something back. If that doesn't happen, IMO, it is time to move on.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 19, 2006 9:44:40 GMT -6
Now if those things are in place or close to it, then maybe it comes down to what offense, defense, special teams things you do. If the foundation is not there then you cannot build the house on top of it. You have to build a foundation first.
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Jun 19, 2006 11:03:43 GMT -6
I'm with Chuck on this one...there are some situations that are basically no-win. At a school like the one Chuck worked at, losing is institutionalized. It's not just the football team...all sports in the school aren't competitive at all. The student population is apathetic, parents don't care, and the administration doesn't support coaches. Can a program like that be turned around? Possibly, but we are not talking about simple things like getting kids in the weight room or convincing the booster club to buy new uniforms or not having a lot of speed, size, or numbers. Those are all relatively simple problems. We are talking about a wholesale culture change and unless you, as a coach, are willing to put up with years of abuse, neglect, and banging bloody fists against solidly locked doors, it simply isn't worth it to stay. Give the kids all of your love, knowledge, and experience. However, at some point, the kids (and parents, administrators, and other coaches) have to give something back. If that doesn't happen, IMO, it is time to move on. I have coached in those types of places TWICE and in both situations got it done when no one , including the players thought it possible...what im saying is that if you hire 9 guys in a row who all use similar approaches you are going to get the similar results...going from multiple I to spread to shot gun spread isnt necessarily going to show big differences in play..but perhaps going to a wing-t or single wing or the double wing might have given the kids a different chance for success...thats my point regarding system...secondly, if you have 9 guys in a row that a) dont get the kids attention and b) cant seem to motivate them, the administration or parents then yup, they are in a "hopeless" situation...i personnally would love a shot a coaching the worst football program in the nation...just to see if i could make some improvment. nO one can rise to low expectations.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 19, 2006 14:10:05 GMT -6
There is one program in the state that could be on the bubble of being "hopeless". They have very little support from the community or the administration. However, I have been told former members of the staff (heavy turn over in assistants- same HC) that the HC uses it an excuse for the the teams poor records.
The problem with this situation is that the team has talent, but it is very obvious that they aren't being taught fundamentals on either side of the ball. They are always in search of schemes that are a "better fit for their lack of talent", but the kids just don't block or tackle well. This year several of their kids have been chosen to play in the all star games by the coaches of those teams- good coaches who have earned the privilage of coaching these teams. There were a few kids on this schools team that anybody would love to have on their squads and would have flourished in another system. Its sad and I feel bad for the kids.
I do agree that there are situations where the community and the school itself just has itself in a hole when it comes to athletics. But there are also situations where the coaches at these schools are either responsible for the decline in enthusiasm or aren't doing anything about it.
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Jun 19, 2006 14:20:34 GMT -6
sure, i have been in schools where the wt rooms are literally non exhistant...and not enough helmets or jerseys etc...thats tough, but blocking and tackling and playign with heart? man, when i see a coach post something like " we are 0-19 and Im looking to get out, i cant win here" etc I think "thats lame". perfect example, i know of one place where the coach stated flatly "im not excited, the kids dont care." and he was right...they didnt care because they knew HE DIDNT CARE. he left, a new guy came in and took the team to the playoffs two years later and its now a playoff team every year after 19 or so years as doormats with that same old approach. the new guy did it his way.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jun 19, 2006 14:42:46 GMT -6
To paraphrase Coach Hugh Wyatt: "Communities, like people, have personalities - cultures, reallly...and all the motivational tactics in the world are useless if there is something in the culture of the community that resists doing what it takes to be successful...It goes deeper than the coaches or administrators."
|
|
|
Post by airman on Jun 19, 2006 15:37:45 GMT -6
gosh this sounds like the city of milwaukee story. I am not sure a MPS will ever be a state champion. the support is just not there for it to happen. there are some schools, however they just cannot compete vs the suburb schools.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 19, 2006 16:38:59 GMT -6
I don't know if you're refering to the team I was talking about airman, but its definitely a discouraging siutation. They had a QB this last year who was incredible- fast, athletic, made great option reads and had a cannon for an arm. However, you could tell the kid wasn't getting the best fundamental coaching- his foot work was way off (both with the drop back pass and veer) and his throwing mechanics left a lot to be desired. The kid put up some decent numbers this year (only 1-2 wins though) but would have been a stud in another program. We put a beating on this school, it would've been a tighter game if this QB hadn''t been injured.
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Jun 19, 2006 20:36:45 GMT -6
I have coached in those types of places TWICE and in both situations got it done when no one , including the players thought it possible...what im saying is that if you hire 9 guys in a row who all use similar approaches you are going to get the similar results...going from multiple I to spread to shot gun spread isnt necessarily going to show big differences in play..but perhaps going to a wing-t or single wing or the double wing might have given the kids a different chance for success...thats my point regarding system...secondly, if you have 9 guys in a row that a) dont get the kids attention and b) cant seem to motivate them, the administration or parents then yup, they are in a "hopeless" situation...i personnally would love a shot a coaching the worst football program in the nation...just to see if i could make some improvment. nO one can rise to low expectations. Okay, Mr. Miracle Worker...please share, in detail, the two programs that you turned around. And, when you are done doing that, I, and most of the other coaches who are members of this site, would like to borrow you Superman costume for the rest of the summer. I would like to see what makes you immune to parents who don't care, administrators who are hostile to athletics, and coaches in other sports who don't support you and are basically punching the time clock to get a paycheck. groundchuck is a heck of a good coach and I would be THRILLED to be on his staff. The view must be mighty fine from that high horse you sit on.
|
|
|
Post by sls on Jun 19, 2006 20:55:37 GMT -6
There are more good football coaches than there are good football programs. Well said. That is my point. I believe that some of the best coaching jobs are done by guys who win 3, 4, or 5 games a year, not neccessarily the guys who win state championships.
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jun 19, 2006 20:58:18 GMT -6
steve, I will tell you that nothing would have gotten chuck's teams to win
he got them to compete but the sheer idiocy of the admin/parents there and the total lack of work ethic/desire to win in that town was beyond
throw in some total loser asst coaches that he had to work with since he didn't get to hire them, and it was a total no win situation
no DW offense would have worked, no 12 man offense would have worked
chuck knows his stuff in all phases of hs coaching
that place will continue to suck for years
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 19, 2006 21:04:16 GMT -6
Guys, I think we are digressing slightly. Here is my take on this whole thing. A new coach CAN turn around a program if he is in the right place at the right time. Coach Calande is a good coach I'm sure. I know he is. You are correct that sometimes a different approach is needed. Sometimes that makes all the difference. Sometimes it does not. Sometimes the losing goes beyond the scheme, the coaches, the coaches in other sports, the poor facilities, etc, and it is just embedded into the community. There are places where sports are not on the priority list. Sometimes no matter how good the coach is it is not enough. Yes, sometimes as Calande points out, the HC basically says "I don't care". But hey, that is not me, or the majority of coaches. When I left after 5 years of beating my fists to a bloody pulp trying to fix a school that does not want to be fixed I walked away knowing I did all I could. Are there some things I would do differently?...You bet. Hindsight is (or should be) 20/20. If you work your butt off to fix it and you keep having the admin put road blocks in your way then it is time to go. If you're a coach who basically raises his hands and throws in the towel however that is "your fault.
Wildcat, I appreciate the compliments.
Guys, lets get this thread back on target.
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jun 19, 2006 21:09:19 GMT -6
chuck, once again
total class
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 19, 2006 21:54:15 GMT -6
steve, I will tell you that nothing would have gotten chuck's teams to win he got them to compete but the sheer idiocy of the admin/parents there and the total lack of work ethic/desire to win in that town was beyond throw in some total loser asst coaches that he had to work with since he didn't get to hire them, and it was a total no win situation no DW offense would have worked, no 12 man offense would have worked chuck knows his stuff in all phases of hs coaching that place will continue to suck for years Just trying to see all sides of it...because after all there are multiple sides to it. I appreciate the compliments...I have not gotten many so I will savor these. Seriously, maybe the DW would've worked? After watching Tim Murphy's DVD set I was impressed, I was impressed with Calande's highlights as well. It sure would have been different for that league, and fits my philosophy. But I chose to stick with my belly series and option. Maybe base from the 5-3 instead of the 4-4? Wait..the 9-2 Eliminator defense! We did try sneaking a 12th man out there sometimes. Sometimes I asked the ref if I could suit up. Yeah sometimes we don't get to pick our assistants. But hopefully they know a little football, don't show up slightly buzzed for practice, or go off the deep end on you. The fact that I kept coming back for more either says I am completely devoted or incredibly stupid. Oh and having starters who are drug addicts really helps too! And by drug addict I do not mean steriods or HGH. Actually in the future they may be okay. Hopefully the close the school down (declining enrollemt), consolidate with the neighbors who are good and the kids who give a rip can play with kids who care. Now what is the sorriest thing you ever heard? Peace out boyz. Lets keep this the greatest football website on the planet!
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jun 19, 2006 22:01:26 GMT -6
ok
let's get back to the most whacked out crap you have heard one coach say or do to another
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Jun 20, 2006 4:04:29 GMT -6
Guys, I think we are digressing slightly. Here is my take on this whole thing. A new coach CAN turn around a program if he is in the right place at the right time. Coach Calande is a good coach I'm sure. I know he is. You are correct that sometimes a different approach is needed. Sometimes that makes all the difference. Sometimes it does not. Sometimes the losing goes beyond the scheme, the coaches, the coaches in other sports, the poor facilities, etc, and it is just embedded into the community. There are places where sports are not on the priority list. Sometimes no matter how good the coach is it is not enough. Yes, sometimes as Calande points out, the HC basically says "I don't care". But hey, that is not me, or the majority of coaches. When I left after 5 years of beating my fists to a bloody pulp trying to fix a school that does not want to be fixed I walked away knowing I did all I could. Are there some things I would do differently?...You bet. Hindsight is (or should be) 20/20. If you work your butt off to fix it and you keep having the admin put road blocks in your way then it is time to go. If you're a coach who basically raises his hands and throws in the towel however that is "your fault. Wildcat, I appreciate the compliments. Guys, lets get this thread back on target. Chuck, my apologies as you know I never intended to make it seem as if you were lame or whatever. I know youre a good coach or you wouldnt be constantly looking for a better way to do things. bad coaches dont do that. Wildcat has decided to take this to argument status and im not going there. My point remains the same, SOMETIMES IT IS THE COACHING. I think MORE OFTEN THAN NOT IT IS THE COACHING. finally, yes, there are some situations where THE COACH HASNT GOT THE CONTROL HE NEEDS TO DO IT HIS WAY. AS FAR AS ME WORKING MIRACLES? eh, only one walked this earth to do that. i AM A BIG BELIVER IN BASICS TO TURN A FOOTBALL PROGRAM AROUND. run the ball well, block with advantages for your kids (angles and double teams), tackle, get after the ball and create turnovers, have a sound kicking game, work hard EVERY DAY, lift weights, eat to be big, believe in the systems and commit to them, know what you coach inside and out, dont waste practice time, script it all, develop pride and ownership, train your staff HOW YOU WANT IT DONE. take the blame and share the credit. I have witnessed some lousy programs up close and most often they lack several of those things. cant always blame the kids or admin or whoever.
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jun 20, 2006 5:19:53 GMT -6
I would agree with Steve, certainly there are coaches that have done a great job winning 3-4 games, but that is the exception. There are lots of worst to first stories out there that can be attributed to great coaching, if it didint matter, why bother having a coach at all? Don Markham turned a 1-9 Bloomington team into a team that went 13-1 inhis first year there and set a national scoring record of 880 points. If I had to chose between an average coach and Tom Osborne coaching my old HS it would be Tom, why? Coaching matters. On the other hand my old HS has 1700 students yet have just 75 or so out for footbal to fill 3 teams. They only suit 26 for varsity, very high Latino population that doesnt play football, they work. They play against teams that have 250 in their program and suit 90 on varsity. The coach wins 3-4 games yearly including beating the #3 team in the state last year ( Prep), the guy is a genious.
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 20, 2006 7:19:19 GMT -6
Steve (and others), as far as I am concerned everything was, is, and will be cool. Like I said there is more than one side to this debate. Each situation is different. I think we all see that now. The argument status of this thread is over. And now we can get back to more important things. That is the "danger" if you will of the written word. It does not always convey the true emotion. Sometimes you can say something relatively benign, take it out of context and blow it up. We all made great points here.
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jun 20, 2006 7:20:52 GMT -6
ok
what is the sorriest thing you have heard of one coach doing to another?
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 20, 2006 7:33:24 GMT -6
ok what is the sorriest thing you have heard of one coach doing to another? Well after getting beat 61-28 the coach of the winning team refused to shake my hand after the game. He barked at me "if one of my 9th graders would have gotten hurt against one of your upperclassmen I would be kicking your a** right now." They were up like 55-14 and I had not pulled my starters yet. We got two long runs to make it 55-28 then they scored again. What I think is sorry here is HE was ahead. It was not like I was leaving my starters in to run it up. I left them in to try and make it look like it was at least a game. This guy threatens to kick my butt. Real (un)classy.
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jun 20, 2006 7:35:03 GMT -6
chuck i think you may be in a "high {censored} quotient" area
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Jun 20, 2006 7:43:55 GMT -6
well again chuck, i was completely unaware that i had offended you until wildcat came to your defense. my apologies once again. and yeah we are beating a dead horse now...we can agree that each situation is different. i think thats why its important for coaching candidates to ask the right questions before they are hired...things like "will i be able to hire my own staff?" because if you cant, you can ruin your coaching career.
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jun 20, 2006 9:51:40 GMT -6
i think old chuck will be allright
thanks for the respect steve
This community is pretty cool.
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jun 20, 2006 10:26:30 GMT -6
Coach, what is the proper ettiquite when behind a bunch and the other team pulls its starters? At the youth level if Im up a bunch I dont really care if the other guy leaves his starters in. Im hoping hes subbing some of his reserves/ younger/smaller players in, but if he wants a score to make it look better and give them some reps, no problem.
|
|