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Post by coachmonkey on Dec 2, 2015 13:56:13 GMT -6
Got caught stealing from the local store... misdemeanor... still let them play? I think its more of the message it sends if you do vs don't that is the issue. I am not sure I could let them play... now obviously not being in the situation it is easy for me to say that.. Round 2 of the playoffs.. vs the same team that has beaten you the last 2 years... no situation a coach wants to be in for sure. Man, I agree... it is not a situation I would want to be in for sure. I would think I probably would NOT play the kid if he was arrested for something like theft, vandalism, etc. regardless as to misdemeanor status. But this particular charge is so tricky. However, after some thought, I think I would be pretty black and white on this issue. The Law is the Law and it was broken. No play. What about speeding?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 13:57:12 GMT -6
Man, I agree... it is not a situation I would want to be in for sure. I would think I probably would NOT play the kid if he was arrested for something like theft, vandalism, etc. regardless as to misdemeanor status. But this particular charge is so tricky. However, after some thought, I think I would be pretty black and white on this issue. The Law is the Law and it was broken. No play. What about speeding? If he is arrested? Nope
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Post by coachmonkey on Dec 2, 2015 14:11:37 GMT -6
You said law, not arrested. So a kid can break any law and if not arrested he can play? It's a slippery slope on something that seems black and white. You're setting precedent for any number of future incidents. I'd think it's covered in athletic code. Above and beyond that you are starting to open yourself up. I wouldn't want him to play however.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 14:18:45 GMT -6
I didn't say anything about the law. Yo get a speeding ticket, I get it. You don't gat arrested for the act of speeding alone. I will bet you everything I own not one of my linemen was a virgin coming into the season. I know for fact three of them Gita speeding ticket. No biggie. Those instances do not necessarily shed a negative light on your teammates. Getting arrested does. They mumble, they are shy, they can't play for me. You are difficult for a teacher, you are not playing. If it's just about them,I really don't want to know. When their action affect their team, their community, their classmates, is when they have a problem.
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Post by coachmonkey on Dec 2, 2015 14:24:17 GMT -6
I didn't say anything about the law. Yo get a speeding ticket, I get it. You don't gat arrested for the act of speeding alone. I will bet you everything I own not one of my linemen was a virgin coming into the season. I know for fact three of them Gita speeding ticket. No biggie. Those instances do not necessarily shed a negative light on your teammates. Getting arrested does. Do you have spelled out what constitutes negatively on the team? If you pick and choose and you are the decider of that, you are opening yourself up to a lawsuit potentially. If he is a top recruit, and a court deemed the courts punishments, plus the coaches penalizing on top of that was "excessive" and he is a top recruit in the nation and it hurts his chances, or stops his chances of getting a scholarship would you be willing to stand behind your decision? It's sad that our world has come to this, I agree he should NOT be allowed to play, but there are reasons you have things like athletic codes and ADs. I am pretty sure I heard that a coach got sued or at least fired, because he punished a kid for something that wasn't spelled out in his team rules. That was a long time ago though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 14:28:56 GMT -6
It is covered every year, they sign agreement, their parents sign it. And if that kid wants to transfer, goodbye. We do not want kids who do not want to be here. And we will help them transfer.
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Post by coachrdc on Dec 2, 2015 14:38:20 GMT -6
I think it was coachblb brought up a good point and I'll ask a piggy back question; how many of your superiors (ADs, Principals, Superintendents, etc.) would allow them to play? I know that in my area there are not many who would allow any player who was arrested during a game week play. There was actually a school I know of in this area who banned a kid for a full year in all sports for being arrested during the summer on a misdemeanor charge (vandalism I think). The kid served his punishment and came back the next year.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 2, 2015 15:00:04 GMT -6
You're probably never going to be able to create a black and white policy on this that will apply "fairly" to every situation. As has been said repeatedly, there is a LOT of gray here. You can always play the "what about...?" scenario and see your own answer change. That's why I prefer NOT to have everything laid out in writing, it's too constricting on my ability to make decisions. I trust myself to make consistent decisions that adhere to my own code of ethics and values, and that's really all that matters to me.* And if my boss disagrees, then I either abide by his/her decision and move forward with a clear conscience that I was overruled, or I don't and go wherever that leads me from there, which theoretically could include out the door if the issue was important enough to me. Everyone has to draw their own lines in the sand on what they'll stand up for or not.
As far as what lessons you are teaching, I'm not really buying the argument around you are only punishing them because they got got. I mean, yes, that is true, but isn't that ALWAYS the case? I mean, how do you punish behavior you don't know about? And if you know about the behavior, then by definition the kid is "caught". What you do about it is the next question. What's your role as a coach of HS age kids? I think your answer to that is going to be very telling in your decision in these types of situations.
Just another thought - I'm not sure speeding is a relevant comparison because minor traffic violations aren't even misdemeanors. I think that does present a place you can draw a line...if you want to.
* I realize my position is incredibly subjective, and it is based on the fact I have worked for over 20 years in an industry where all of my decisions can come under legal scrutiny. I am accustomed to taking that into account without even really thinking about it.
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Post by freezeoption on Dec 2, 2015 19:28:38 GMT -6
17 is considered a adult in most states, they could be staring at hard time, she is not a adult, she could say yes and it is still against the law, there is no innocent until proven guilty when dealing with minors, i'm sure the parents reported it, doesn't make a difference, I can't believe people are still arguing over this, we had something like this happen in Missouri a couple of years ago if you look back in the news,
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dbeck84
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Post by dbeck84 on Dec 2, 2015 19:52:06 GMT -6
I will bet you everything I own not one of my linemen was a virgin coming into the season. ...evidently a lot has changed since my playing days as a lineman.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 3, 2015 8:51:49 GMT -6
do you make your players take a vow of chastity or something? You condone their act of selfishness? How in the HELL do you equate a teenage boy trying to have sex with anything having to do with your football team?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 9:51:16 GMT -6
do you make your players take a vow of chastity or something? You condone their act of selfishness? Don't act so "holier than thou." You were a teenager once, and if you had the opportunity to get some tail, you would have.
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Post by olinedude on Dec 3, 2015 10:19:57 GMT -6
You condone their act of selfishness? How in the HELL do you equate a teenage boy trying to have sex with anything having to do with your football team? When it makes the news that you were arrested and playing in a playoff game that week, it now has everything to do with the football team. If it didn't have anything to do with the team, we wouldn't be discussing it here.
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Post by natenator on Dec 3, 2015 10:22:02 GMT -6
You condone their act of selfishness? Don't act so "holier than thou." You were a teenager once, and if you had the opportunity to get some tail, you would have. I always went up in age bracket. No HS kid looked cool banging someone younger than them.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 3, 2015 10:28:18 GMT -6
I'm not sure this is exactly the same as all other instances of "getting tail". I think you can reasonably look at this situation a bit differently than a boyfriend/girlfriend situation, for example. The law may not see it differently, but that comes back to what I said earlier, you simply cannot fully address all of the variables of human behavior with black and white policy/law. I deal with the situation that exists, and while I do factor in precedent that might be set, etc., I don't let that paralyze me. I'm not going to not discipline these guys for what they did because then I'd have to do the same for that Junior who turned 17 and suddenly it was illegal to have sex with his 14 year old girlfriend that he's been having sex with for the past 6 months. I don't know what I'd do if that happened...I can say that it would be based on the facts and circumstances of THAT situation.
And stepping back some - yeah, I do think I can reasonably hold a teenager accountable for adhering to the law while going about getting laid. We're not talking abstinence here, we're talking right and wrong with the line drawn in a pretty reasonable place as it applies to this specific situation.
On the other hand, I'm also going to acknowledge that there may be factors in this case that we don't know about. More information might change my opinion, but we can only offer up an opinion on what we know...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 10:36:05 GMT -6
You condone their act of selfishness? How in the HELL do you equate a teenage boy trying to have sex with anything having to do with your football team? The arrest is my issue, how they get arrested is of no concern. I would ask you how you can suggest kids that do not have fully developed brains,should getting tail and the responsibility that come with it...normally meant for adults.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Dec 3, 2015 10:50:19 GMT -6
I think I'd lean to sit them that game until the smoke settled. After that let the system take over and re-evaluate.
To put it in perspective:
2014 - Benched a kid a game because in the team picture he was flashing the "shocker" hand sign 2014 - Benched a kid a game because he talked back to a coach at practice 2015 - Benched a kid cause he swung at a teammate during a Thursday practice warmup 2015 - Benched 2 starting OL because they weren't being coachable during Thursday practice
So what I'm saying is I've benched kids for WAY LESS. These kids got arrested! Means there was probable cause! Guilty or not they can't be out there representing us until we know for sure all is well.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 3, 2015 11:55:06 GMT -6
How in the HELL do you equate a teenage boy trying to have sex with anything having to do with your football team? The arrest is my issue, how they get arrested is of no concern. I would ask you how you can suggest kids that do not have fully developed brains,should getting tail and the responsibility that come with it...normally meant for adults. Millions of them do it every day. Not saying I condone it, but I also don't think that when a girl gets naked that ANY PERSON ON THIS SITE when they were 17 and 18 would of thought, "How will this effect my team" or "Will this reflect poorly on my school?". You can't fault someone for getting arrested for something that happens spur of the moment and is wanted by the other party. I'm also willing to wager, that these individuals probably aren't real aware of the finer points of statutory laws in LA.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 3, 2015 11:56:44 GMT -6
How in the HELL do you equate a teenage boy trying to have sex with anything having to do with your football team? When it makes the news that you were arrested and playing in a playoff game that week, it now has everything to do with the football team. If it didn't have anything to do with the team, we wouldn't be discussing it here. Once again, you think any man alive at the age of 17 or 18 is going to have any of that potential outcome going through their heads when a girl is naked and telling you she wants it?
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Post by olinedude on Dec 3, 2015 12:17:20 GMT -6
just because 17 yr old football players are immature hormone driven kids, doesn't make them incapable of considering the ramifications of their actions. I do believe that d1 prospect stud football player can and should be able to think and have the maturity to understand that leaving a community pep rally to bang a 14 yr old and then try to get her to let his buddy hit it too could have potentially negative consequences. Just because that is how kids typically act at 17, doesn't mean that we can't hold our players to a higher standard.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 3, 2015 12:19:05 GMT -6
When it makes the news that you were arrested and playing in a playoff game that week, it now has everything to do with the football team. If it didn't have anything to do with the team, we wouldn't be discussing it here. Once again, you think any man alive at the age of 17 or 18 is going to have any of that potential outcome going through their heads when a girl is naked and telling you she wants it? No, but I really don't think this started up as the girl coming out of nowhere naked and offering herself up to them. While I don't KNOW, somehow I would imagine that there was a whole lot of maneuvering to get into a situation where that could even happen. And that's where I think I can reasonably expect a 17 or 18 year old to think "no, I don't want to get into this situation with a 14 year old girl". I agree with you that I don't really look at it as selfish, or that he should have thought of the team. I look at it as how an individual carries himself period - you are an athlete, you are special, you are held to a different standard in a lot of ways, and you better f*cking realize that and act like it or you don't get to be an athlete.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 3, 2015 12:48:28 GMT -6
Once again, you think any man alive at the age of 17 or 18 is going to have any of that potential outcome going through their heads when a girl is naked and telling you she wants it? No, but I really don't think this started up as the girl coming out of nowhere naked and offering herself up to them. While I don't KNOW, somehow I would imagine that there was a whole lot of maneuvering to get into a situation where that could even happen. And that's where I think I can reasonably expect a 17 or 18 year old to think "no, I don't want to get into this situation with a 14 year old girl". I agree with you that I don't really look at it as selfish, or that he should have thought of the team. I look at it as how an individual carries himself period - you are an athlete, you are special, you are held to a different standard in a lot of ways, and you better f*cking realize that and act like it or you don't get to be an athlete. As to your first paragraph, that's a lot of your personal opinion on the matter. Second Paragraph- Really? You never watch the NFL or college football, or really an athletic event then apparently.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 3, 2015 12:53:48 GMT -6
just because 17 yr old football players are immature hormone driven kids, doesn't make them incapable of considering the ramifications of their actions. I do believe that d1 prospect stud football player can and should be able to think and have the maturity to understand that leaving a community pep rally to bang a 14 yr old and then try to get her to let his buddy hit it too could have potentially negative consequences. Just because that is how kids typically act at 17, doesn't mean that we can't hold our players to a higher standard. So, you expect your kids to know the ins and outs of the law before they engage in sexual activity. This is not an instance where a 40 year old football COACH is having sex with a 14 year old girl (which happens hundreds to thousands of times a year), this is a kid that is a Sr having sex with a freshman and they should think about this as a possible outcome when doing so. I don't disagree that you shouldn't expect kids to behave better. I just can't believe how many self righteous people on here act like they don't have the same issues or didn't do this type of thing themselves. Just sitting them out of a game isn't going to teach them anything, just like playing them in a game isn't necessarily letting them get away with anything. If handled correctly, this can be a great teaching moment. By talking to the kid and them playing, or not playing, you could change the course of their career. But to approach this as "They got arrested, they don't play!" does nothing to rectify anything other than make the coach feel better about themselves and their reputation as a hard ass.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 12:58:53 GMT -6
The arrest is my issue, how they get arrested is of no concern. I would ask you how you can suggest kids that do not have fully developed brains,should getting tail and the responsibility that come with it...normally meant for adults. Millions of them do it every day. Not saying I condone it, but I also don't think that when a girl gets naked that ANY PERSON ON THIS SITE when they were 17 and 18 would of thought, "How will this effect my team" or "Will this reflect poorly on my school?". You can't fault someone for getting arrested for something that happens spur of the moment and is wanted by the other party. I'm also willing to wager, that these individuals probably aren't real aware of the finer points of statutory laws in LA. So they are not acct. for there actions... Explains a lot.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 13:01:04 GMT -6
just because 17 yr old football players are immature hormone driven kids, doesn't make them incapable of considering the ramifications of their actions. I do believe that d1 prospect stud football player can and should be able to think and have the maturity to understand that leaving a community pep rally to bang a 14 yr old and then try to get her to let his buddy hit it too could have potentially negative consequences. Just because that is how kids typically act at 17, doesn't mean that we can't hold our players to a higher standard. So, you expect your kids to know the ins and outs of the law before they engage in sexual activity. This is not an instance where a 40 year old football COACH is having sex with a 14 year old girl (which happens hundreds to thousands of times a year), this is a kid that is a Sr having sex with a freshman and they should think about this as a possible outcome when doing so. I don't disagree that you shouldn't expect kids to behave better. I just can't believe how many self righteous people on here act like they don't have the same issues or didn't do this type of thing themselves. Just sitting them out of a game isn't going to teach them anything, just like playing them in a game isn't necessarily letting them get away with anything. If handled correctly, this can be a great teaching moment. By talking to the kid and them playing, or not playing, you could change the course of their career. But to approach this as "They got arrested, they don't play!" does nothing to rectify anything other than make the coach feel better about themselves and their reputation as a hard ass. In this day age with all the sex education classes, ignorance isn't really plausible. Then are this who claim they are coaching to help kids but this never come up? Really! What are you helping them with.
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 3, 2015 14:06:02 GMT -6
No, but I really don't think this started up as the girl coming out of nowhere naked and offering herself up to them. While I don't KNOW, somehow I would imagine that there was a whole lot of maneuvering to get into a situation where that could even happen. And that's where I think I can reasonably expect a 17 or 18 year old to think "no, I don't want to get into this situation with a 14 year old girl". I agree with you that I don't really look at it as selfish, or that he should have thought of the team. I look at it as how an individual carries himself period - you are an athlete, you are special, you are held to a different standard in a lot of ways, and you better f*cking realize that and act like it or you don't get to be an athlete. As to your first paragraph, that's a lot of your personal opinion on the matter. Second Paragraph- Really? You never watch the NFL or college football, or really an athletic event then apparently. First paragraph - yup, I'm guessing. But like a LOT of things, putting yourself in a position where bad things can happen is where you go wrong. What's the saying - nothing good happens after midnight? My college coach addressed this with us our first week on campus (when I was 17, by the way) - if you're going to go to the party, you better not be the star, because if I find out about it, we have a problem. As for the second paragraph - yeah, I do. And that's part of the problem.
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Post by coachrdc on Dec 3, 2015 15:02:51 GMT -6
So to sum up the two sides of this argument in a sentence each:
Side A - These two were selfish and damaged the reputation of their program by being arrested, regardless of the reason for the arrest.
Side B - We shouldn't punish these two because they are young men and we can't expect them to control themselves around women in a sexual context.
Again, this doesn't completely encompass the entirety of the arguments, but is that pretty much it?
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Post by fantom on Dec 3, 2015 15:26:06 GMT -6
So to sum up the two sides of this argument in a sentence each: Side A - These two were selfish and damaged the reputation of their program by being arrested, regardless of the reason for the arrest. Side B - We shouldn't punish these two because they are young men and we can't expect them to control themselves around women in a sexual context. Again, this doesn't completely encompass the entirety of the arguments, but is that pretty much it? No, it's not.
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Post by coachrdc on Dec 3, 2015 16:56:19 GMT -6
So to sum up the two sides of this argument in a sentence each: Side A - These two were selfish and damaged the reputation of their program by being arrested, regardless of the reason for the arrest. Side B - We shouldn't punish these two because they are young men and we can't expect them to control themselves around women in a sexual context. Again, this doesn't completely encompass the entirety of the arguments, but is that pretty much it? No, it's not. What am I missing then here? It seems as though you're either a judgmental prude or a hands off liberal. (I'll own the judgemental prude title too btw based on my own comments on the subject)
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Post by jrk5150 on Dec 3, 2015 17:25:38 GMT -6
I think a few of us - but I'll only speak for myself - thought that being arrested under these circumstances is serious enough to warrant holding the kid out. I am not saying the kid is selfish nor would I be acting to preserve the program's reputation. I simply believe the kid should be held accountable for engaging in behavior that is antithetical to the program I'm running. I don't know if that is judgmental or liberal or voodoo - I simply see it as my responsibility to hold a kid accountable for his behavior.
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