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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 22, 2015 19:52:14 GMT -6
if you got arrested and it was supposed to go to court then you are supposed to be out till it goes through court, it says on the code, i don't know if a license issue would count, Being charged with driving with a suspended drivers license carries potential jail time. It isn't a minor traffic violation. I was taken into custody, booked, and spent the about 12 hours in central lockup. I realize that this isn't YOUR policy, but I am just saying that I was 100% innocent, yet was still arrested just as if I had been drunk driving, or charged with a different crime.
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 22, 2015 20:11:02 GMT -6
ok, i don't know how long the code has been going, it has been for a while, it says what it says, if it goes to court then don't play in games till court decision is made, that's all i can tell you, have had kids sit out of games till the court made a decision,
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Post by kcbazooka on Nov 22, 2015 20:41:29 GMT -6
In Missouri, they don't play until the sentence is finished. If a kid is given community service he doesn't play until that is done.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 22, 2015 20:45:29 GMT -6
In Missouri, they don't play until the sentence is finished. If a kid is given community service he doesn't play until that is done. That I can definitely understand. I guess I was just pointing out (as others have) the fact that being arrested doesn't equate to being guilty.
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Post by wolfden12 on Nov 22, 2015 20:48:03 GMT -6
My initial thought would be to sit them. I would however, consult my principal, athletic director and superintendent and get there feelings/protocol on the situation.
This is a slippery slope as indicated by so many above. I cannot think how a right choice can be made. You have to trust your gut and go with it.
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Post by kcbazooka on Nov 22, 2015 20:49:32 GMT -6
Agreed. And if was taken to court I don't know how it would turn out. But in Missouri a kid is out until the trial and subsequent punishment is done. Regarding the situation given, the two players were arrested of a crime and admitted they did it. I can't see allowing them to play
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2015 14:32:22 GMT -6
I think it sends the wrong message to say, that as long as it is district policy and the county doesn't care, neither do I. If you are in the camp of saying you are in this for the kids, then you are sending mixed messages.
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Post by newhope on Nov 30, 2015 11:30:40 GMT -6
This isn't a case of maybe they were charged with something they didn't do and you're trying to do the "innocent until proven guilty" thing. You know they're guilty. You know the right answer, too.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 11:52:55 GMT -6
To kind of go a long with the last post...there should be a school wide policy in place to cover this type of incident, but if there isn't I'm not reacting to that info without speaking to the AD and principal first. Who am I to set a precident? I shouldn't be the one setting that type of policy. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards Your school has a gang bang policy in place? Edit- posted this before I read the whole thread.
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Post by olcoach53 on Nov 30, 2015 11:53:08 GMT -6
We had three kids get arrested for shoplifting pink gloves the day of a game. I wanted them kicked off the team immediately but the head coach felt it better to suspend them for 2 games. Head Coach was eventually let go for "lack of discipline" that off season.
The worst part was that these kids lived in a good neighborhood, had money, had everything they needed but STILL stole the gloves. Just dumb
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 11:56:22 GMT -6
Play them.
Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I fail to see why this is a big deal. I can GUARANTEE you have all coached people who have done exactly the same thing.
Consensual sex with an age difference of 3+ years is a crime? Crap, I better go to jail now. There's 5 years and 10 months between my wife and me.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2015 12:34:22 GMT -6
Play them. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I fail to see why this is a big deal. I can GUARANTEE you have all coached people who have done exactly the same thing. Consensual sex with an age difference of 3+ years is a crime? Crap, I better go to jail now. There's 5 years and 10 months between my wife and me. Yes-- it is. Whether you agree with it or not and whether it fits your moral paradigm or not, it is a crime. That is the crux of the issue.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 12:54:27 GMT -6
Play them. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I fail to see why this is a big deal. I can GUARANTEE you have all coached people who have done exactly the same thing. Consensual sex with an age difference of 3+ years is a crime? Crap, I better go to jail now. There's 5 years and 10 months between my wife and me. Yes-- it is. Whether you agree with it or not and whether it fits your moral paradigm or not, it is a crime. That is the crux of the issue. But it's a stupid crime. Spitting on a sidewalk in some communities is still a crime. Should you sit a kid for doing that? Hell, in some communities, it's still technically a crime for players such as those in the story listed to be in the town after dark. I'm usually as black and white situation type guy as there is in the world, but this one is just stupid.
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Post by coachrdc on Nov 30, 2015 13:49:08 GMT -6
Arrested? Not happening. It sounds like from the first article posted that they were simply let out on bail Friday morning, which if I understand this correctly means that there were still pending charges. If you have charges pending, you aren't even in the stadium, and even if the charges have been dropped by game time, I'm not sure I could bring myself to let them play, even if higher ups have given the OK. I too am not a HC, but that would be my two cents.
larrymoe, calling this a "stupid" crime based on your logic seems misguided to me. My grandparents had I believe 8+ years between them, but the way I read it, if both parties are over the age of consent, the law would not apply. This is a law designed to protect minors, not prohibit you and your wife from having fun...
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 13:56:41 GMT -6
Arrested? Not happening. It sounds like from the first article posted that they were simply let out on bail Friday morning, which if I understand this correctly means that there were still pending charges. If you have charges pending, you aren't even in the stadium, and even if the charges have been dropped by game time, I'm not sure I could bring myself to let them play, even if higher ups have given the OK. I too am not a HC, but that would be my two cents. larrymoe, calling this a "stupid" crime based on your logic seems misguided to me. My grandparents had I believe 8+ years between them, but the way I read it, if both parties are over the age of consent, the law would not apply. This is a law designed to protect minors, not prohibit you and your wife from having fun... One is a minor. A 17 year old engaging in sex with a 14 year old as a crime is stupid. If read right, a 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old is a crime. Think about that. An older Jr having sex with a So is a crime. That is the definition of stupid.
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Post by coachklee on Nov 30, 2015 14:35:36 GMT -6
I'm glad I'm not making the decision!
After reading through the article and thread, unless I was told by someone higher up in the school administration (AD, Principal, Superintendent) that they are to play, I would elect to sit them. While this is completely a judgement call on my part, their actions violate the principle of "Do the right thing" or "Don’t do anything that would embarrass you, your family, the team or the school."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2015 14:47:48 GMT -6
Arrested? Not happening. It sounds like from the first article posted that they were simply let out on bail Friday morning, which if I understand this correctly means that there were still pending charges. If you have charges pending, you aren't even in the stadium, and even if the charges have been dropped by game time, I'm not sure I could bring myself to let them play, even if higher ups have given the OK. I too am not a HC, but that would be my two cents. larrymoe, calling this a "stupid" crime based on your logic seems misguided to me. My grandparents had I believe 8+ years between them, but the way I read it, if both parties are over the age of consent, the law would not apply. This is a law designed to protect minors, not prohibit you and your wife from having fun... One is a minor. A 17 year old engaging in sex with a 14 year old as a crime is stupid. If read right, a 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old is a crime. Think about that. An older Jr having sex with a So is a crime. That is the definition of stupid. I may be completely wrong, but this struck me as a case of the South, 2 black male student-athletes and a white female student. Emphasis on the South.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 14:57:38 GMT -6
One is a minor. A 17 year old engaging in sex with a 14 year old as a crime is stupid. If read right, a 17 year old having sex with a 15 year old is a crime. Think about that. An older Jr having sex with a So is a crime. That is the definition of stupid. I may be completely wrong, but this struck me as a case of the South, 2 black male student-athletes and a white female student. Emphasis on the South. Is the girl white? That thought never crossed my mind.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 14:58:08 GMT -6
I'm glad I'm not making the decision! After reading through the article and thread, unless I was told by someone higher up in the school administration (AD, Principal, Superintendent) that they are to play, I would elect to sit them. While this is completely a judgement call on my part, their actions violate the principle of "Do the right thing" or "Don’t do anything that would embarrass you, your family, the team or the school." You'd hardly have a team if you sat people for doing the wrong thing. It may not be as public as this case, but I can assure you that even your "best" kids do a lot of wrong things.
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Post by coachrdc on Nov 30, 2015 18:01:31 GMT -6
We will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "stupid crime." The fact is that it is a crime, whether stupid or not. Imagine a society where you can choose which laws are "stupid " and can therefore can disregard them. Or look at it from a football perspective; I personally think it's "stupid" that in Indiana you cannot cut block outside the free blocking zone, but that doesn't mean that I teach my guys to do it until they get caught.
Fact is; two players were arrested the day before a game and released on bail on a Friday morning. If you let those two play that night, as Tony Kornheiser would say, the optics of that are not good.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 30, 2015 19:37:50 GMT -6
We will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "stupid crime." The fact is that it is a crime, whether stupid or not. Imagine a society where you can choose which laws are "stupid " and can therefore can disregard them. Or look at it from a football perspective; I personally think it's "stupid" that in Indiana you cannot cut block outside the free blocking zone, but that doesn't mean that I teach my guys to do it until they get caught. Fact is; two players were arrested the day before a game and released on bail on a Friday morning. If you let those two play that night, as Tony Kornheiser would say, the optics of that are not good. Everyone chooses what laws are stupid and which ones aren't. Ever sped? Looked at your phone while driving? Not worn a seat belt while driving? Do you report every dollar you win from an NCAA bracket pool?
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Post by freezeoption on Nov 30, 2015 20:04:22 GMT -6
it's against the law, someone reported it, it also doesn't make a difference what color, 17 is the age of consent in most states, some lessons in life are hard, that's life
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2015 20:04:48 GMT -6
We will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "stupid crime." The fact is that it is a crime, whether stupid or not. Imagine a society where you can choose which laws are "stupid " and can therefore can disregard them. Or look at it from a football perspective; I personally think it's "stupid" that in Indiana you cannot cut block outside the free blocking zone, but that doesn't mean that I teach my guys to do it until they get caught. Fact is; two players were arrested the day before a game and released on bail on a Friday morning. If you let those two play that night, as Tony Kornheiser would say, the optics of that are not good. Everyone chooses what laws are stupid and which ones aren't. Ever sped? Looked at your phone while driving? Not worn a seat belt while driving? Do you report every dollar you win from an NCAA bracket pool? No coach..that is deciding what laws to follow. Two different things. Some coaches just don't think it is a coach's place to put himself into the legal system or operate as the morality police. You apparently do. And if parent's think your policies are stupid? Or kids? F' larrymoe maan, going to practice is stupid. I understand your personal feelings on the situation, I just don't think it is a coach's place to say "well, this was stupid..you can play" if your normal policy is 'get arrested, no play"
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Post by coachrdc on Nov 30, 2015 20:07:07 GMT -6
We will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "stupid crime." The fact is that it is a crime, whether stupid or not. Imagine a society where you can choose which laws are "stupid " and can therefore can disregard them. Or look at it from a football perspective; I personally think it's "stupid" that in Indiana you cannot cut block outside the free blocking zone, but that doesn't mean that I teach my guys to do it until they get caught. Fact is; two players were arrested the day before a game and released on bail on a Friday morning. If you let those two play that night, as Tony Kornheiser would say, the optics of that are not good. Everyone chooses what laws are stupid and which ones aren't. Ever sped? Looked at your phone while driving? Not worn a seat belt while driving? Do you report every dollar you win from an NCAA bracket pool? Yes, no, and I don't gamble. And I would point out additionally, yes I got caught speeding, yes I paid my fine. I would also point out that in my estimation there is a big difference between a speeding ticket and the charges that were brought against these young men. Call me hypocrite if you want, but that's the way I see it. Again, agree to disagree.
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Post by larrymoe on Dec 1, 2015 8:37:40 GMT -6
Everyone chooses what laws are stupid and which ones aren't. Ever sped? Looked at your phone while driving? Not worn a seat belt while driving? Do you report every dollar you win from an NCAA bracket pool? No coach..that is deciding what laws to follow. Two different things. Some coaches just don't think it is a coach's place to put himself into the legal system or operate as the morality police. You apparently do. And if parent's think your policies are stupid? Or kids? F' larrymoe maan, going to practice is stupid. I understand your personal feelings on the situation, I just don't think it is a coach's place to say "well, this was stupid..you can play" if your normal policy is 'get arrested, no play" I think that if the school hasn't instructed you to not play them that you're equally operating as the morality police by not playing them. If it isn't my place to say that a law is stupid, why is your place to say that they're in the wrong and can't play?
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Post by coachklee on Dec 1, 2015 10:32:04 GMT -6
I'm glad I'm not making the decision! After reading through the article and thread, unless I was told by someone higher up in the school administration (AD, Principal, Superintendent) that they are to play, I would elect to sit them. While this is completely a judgement call on my part, their actions violate the principle of "Do the right thing" or "Don’t do anything that would embarrass you, your family, the team or the school." You'd hardly have a team if you sat people for doing the wrong thing. It may not be as public as this case, but I can assure you that even your "best" kids do a lot of wrong things. I will both disagree and agree with you. At some point though there are lines that shouldn't be crossed. Being arrested and having a situation become public knowledge puts the situation at a completely different level. Like I said, I'm glad I'm not making the decision. I'd actually prefer to be in a state such as Missouri with a straightforward policy of "If you are arrested you are suspended until the trial is completed". Removes myself as the decision maker, because I know that I'd be choosing to sit the kids. Seniors in high school shouldn't be having sex with freshmen...the kids are lucky that they aren't a full 4 years older than the girl...my opinion and the choice I'd make if it was left up to me. I'll be honest and admit I'm wishy-washy chicken {censored} here and would be hoping that I wouldn't have to make the decision.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 1, 2015 11:36:59 GMT -6
I don't know all the facts, but what if these kids were dating for 6 months and just now the parents of the girl found out they were having sex and got pissed? The male would eat dinner with the girls family, go out with them, etc, theyd hold hands and swap kisses in the hall in front of faculty at school, etc....now all of a sudden the kid is a criminal because her mom found out they were having sex and wanted to press charges? No way I would sit the kid in this scenario....unless told to do so from a higher up.
If the girl was drunk at a party and taken advantage of then he doesn't play obviously.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using proboards
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 1, 2015 12:27:18 GMT -6
No coach..that is deciding what laws to follow. Two different things. Some coaches just don't think it is a coach's place to put himself into the legal system or operate as the morality police. You apparently do. And if parent's think your policies are stupid? Or kids? F' larrymoe maan, going to practice is stupid. I understand your personal feelings on the situation, I just don't think it is a coach's place to say "well, this was stupid..you can play" if your normal policy is 'get arrested, no play" I think that if the school hasn't instructed you to not play them that you're equally operating as the morality police by not playing them. If it isn't my place to say that a law is stupid, why is your place to say that they're in the wrong and can't play? THEY WERE ARRESTED AND CHARGED. A coach not playing them is not saying they are in the wrong. A coach not playing them because they were ARRESTED AND CHARGED (and have admitted to it) isn't the one saying they are in the wrong. The lawmakers of the community are.
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Post by olinedude on Dec 1, 2015 12:41:05 GMT -6
I don't care what the crime is, what they are charged with, or if they are guilty or not: If they get arrested and are out on bail they aren't suiting up for me. No way, no how. I would tell those kids they made a stupid mistake, they got arrested, and because of that they are suspended indefinitely. If the community gets angry at me for suspending a couple stud football players and wants me fired then so be it. I could walk away from that with my head held high and say with confidence, " I wouldn't let them play because they were arrested and out on bail."
I'd rather lose that game than compromise my standards of character within my program.
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Post by spos21ram on Dec 1, 2015 12:51:31 GMT -6
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Arrested and charged doesn't prove guilt.
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