spoonie
Sophomore Member
Posts: 115
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Post by spoonie on Oct 9, 2012 4:20:08 GMT -6
I saw this mentioned in the thread about the player in Michigan who punched a rival coach and it's something that rears its head every year without fail in the UK, so I wanted to gather some thoughts around it witha few questions.
* At what point do you think it's running up the score? What kind of margin with how long left in the game?
* At what point do you believe you should be pulling your starters and replacing them with second string?
* When you do pull starters (if you're lucky enough to have backups) do you have a process for this (i.e. QB first, then RBs, then WRs)?
* How do you change your approach to play calling when you have a significant lead and how significant does it need to be? Do you try new things/pass less and run more/stop calling timeouts/etc?
* What if you've made your replacements and the opposition still can't stop you? Do you tell players to bring down the intensity?
* Have you ever had challenges with second/third stringers who are looking to break into starting spots who go 100mph when you bring them on, possibly making the situation worse?
Obviously it's a bit of a privileged position to be in when you can consider these things, because you're giving someone an absolute pasting, but I find it an interesting discussion and wanted to see how opinions differ.
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Post by newhope on Oct 9, 2012 6:03:06 GMT -6
There is "running up the score" and there is poor sportsmanship. We're supposed to be in the education business. Teaching sportsmanship is part of it. Yes, it is my job to stop you. But, yes, it is your job to teach sportsmanship. I'm not punching an extra score in on you with my starters just because I can. That's about nothing but personal ego. If you've got the game in hand, why not let the backups play? If they score, all well and good. How are you going to explain to them why they couldn't play with the game in hand? What part of teamwork, discipline, and sportsmanship does that represent. Lots of coaches can talk the "team" and "doing the right thing" talk, but far fewer actually walk it.
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Post by cnunley on Oct 9, 2012 6:16:21 GMT -6
This question comes up several times a year on this board and the answers always vary.
I don't believe there are set rules for this...its different for each team and each situation.
And I've been on both sides of this. This past week we got destroyed 56-14. Could've been 100 to nothing. The opposing team began subbing a little in the 2nd quarter. And basically played their JV's in the 2nd half. They continued to run their base offense (which was the single wing) and we still struggled to stop it.
Most coaches get very offensive if a team is throwing the ball late in the 2nd half of a blow out...but I see it a lot like dcohio. What if they are a throwing dominate team? Should they have to run Draw or Inside Zone every play because they are that much better than us? I dont think so.
My belief is you have to take care of yourself 1st. Especially late in the season if you are preparing for a playoff push. Do what's best to prepare your team, make subs when needed, and run your base stuff (whether that is run or pass dominate).
Now am I a fan of seeing a team run a double reverse pass when ahead by 40? Not really, but it's always our job to stop it and for all I know the opposing coach wants to practice that play in a game situation or wants it on film for upcoming opponents to see.
It's taken me several years to get to that opinion
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Post by nuhusky82 on Oct 9, 2012 7:48:12 GMT -6
As a chain gang member I always get to hear the visiting teams side of things.
First game of the year and the top team in the league is in town. Visitors go up 39-0 after 3 and begin to sub in their second team. Home team keeps in the starters.
Asst coaches and visiting fans start chirping about this. Head coach finally tells them to shut up. "They (home team) are young and need to work in game situation. We will worry about our team." I had always respected this coach and this made me even more of an admirer.
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Post by spos21ram on Oct 9, 2012 8:17:02 GMT -6
As a chain gang member I always get to hear the visiting teams side of things. First game of the year and the top team in the league is in town. Visitors go up 39-0 after 3 and begin to sub in their second team. Home team keeps in the starters. Asst coaches and visiting fans start chirping about this. Head coach finally tells them to shut up. "They (home team) are young and need to work in game situation. We will worry about our team." I had always respected this coach and this made me even more of an admirer. This is our program's approach also and our staff is greatly respected for it. Yes, some of us on the staff will say something amonst each other when we are up big and have our 3rd team in and the opposing team still has their starters in. Only time we will put back some starters or 2nd teammers is if their 1st team is absolutely dominating our subs and there's a possibilty of some of them getting injured. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2012 9:06:41 GMT -6
One of my biggest pet peeves on "running up the score" is that people see a big number and just assume one team was unsportsmanlike about it. I was on the wrong end of an 84-8 game several seasons ago and I can honestly say the other team wasn't being unsportsmanlike about it--they had a lot of backups in, scored 4 or 5 defense/special teams TDs, we turned it over several times in the redzone or we may have more, etc.
On the other hand, I was on the wrong end of a 42-14 game two years ago, and the other team was very unsportsmanlike about it, going so far as to no-huddle and throw a couple hail-mary type passes on us with starters trying to tack on one more.
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Post by TMGPG on Oct 9, 2012 9:14:19 GMT -6
There is "running up the score" and there is poor sportsmanship. We're supposed to be in the education business. Teaching sportsmanship is part of it. Yes, it is my job to stop you. But, yes, it is your job to teach sportsmanship. I'm not punching an extra score in on you with my starters just because I can. That's about nothing but personal ego. If you've got the game in hand, why not let the backups play? If they score, all well and good. How are you going to explain to them why they couldn't play with the game in hand? What part of teamwork, discipline, and sportsmanship does that represent. Lots of coaches can talk the "team" and "doing the right thing" talk, but far fewer actually walk it. I agree, we are here to teach kids about the game and about life not embarrass kids. Onside kicks, playaction passes, reverse plays, and HB Passes are the four plays that should be cut from the playbook when you have a big lead. |
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Post by coachbw on Oct 9, 2012 9:30:50 GMT -6
Score can be so misleading. We had a great team a few years ago, and had 2 situations that really changed my perspective on this. One was a situation where the other team wanted to quit, their fans were throwing stuff, etc. They were upset because up 35-0 in the 4th we proceeded to score on two dives (with 2s and 3s in) and 2 interception returns.
We were a no-huddle I formation offense, and let our QB's call about 95% of our plays that year. We were up 28-3 late in the state-championship game our backup QB saw them walk both safeties into the box. He went to our auto check for the week which happened to be a 1 step vertical route to the wing and we scored on it. Their staff was pretty upset about it (post-game press conference, clinic circuit, etc. wasn't real positive towards us). Prior to that year, i would have probably considered that to be running it up, but that year changed my view on it. I don't think you can expect a staff to ask their backup QB who is playing against the other teams starters not to "do what they do."
That year really showed me that there are so many variables to the decisions coaches make. They may want to get a key backup some reps with the ones. They may not like the way something has been run. Maybe they have a player who was injured earlier in the year that they are trying to get some game experience. I just don't think that we always know enough about what the other team is doing to be a judge of their intentions. As long as a team is doing what they normally do, I can live with the results. All that being said, I am on the other end of it now with a startup program and we have had several weeks where we have struggled to compete. I do think that onside and trick plays are the 2 things that I probably would hold a grudge about if someone used against us up big (big to me is 40+ in the 4th).
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Post by fantom on Oct 9, 2012 10:04:25 GMT -6
There is "running up the score" and there is poor sportsmanship. We're supposed to be in the education business. Teaching sportsmanship is part of it. Yes, it is my job to stop you. But, yes, it is your job to teach sportsmanship. I'm not punching an extra score in on you with my starters just because I can. That's about nothing but personal ego. If you've got the game in hand, why not let the backups play? If they score, all well and good. How are you going to explain to them why they couldn't play with the game in hand? What part of teamwork, discipline, and sportsmanship does that represent. Lots of coaches can talk the "team" and "doing the right thing" talk, but far fewer actually walk it. I agree, we are here to teach kids about the game and about life not embarrass kids. Onside kicks, playaction passes, reverse plays, and HB Passes are the four plays that should be cut from the playbook when you have a big lead. We ran an end-around a few years ago with a big lead. Scored on it and never felt bad about it for a second. Here's what happened: We were in the fourth quarter and the seconds and thirds had been in the game for most of the second half. We were doing the "right thing" and running isos and powers but the opponent had their firsts in and were bringing the house every play. Our young kids were getting murdered. They had 8 guys between the C gaps and were just hammering us. Finally the boss had seen enough and called the end-around. Hey, where does it say that we have to keep feeding kids into a meat-grinder? It seems like there are guys who want to have it both ways. They don't want to have the score run up on them (and I agree with them. Remember, we were TRYING to keep the score down) but they want to instill a "never say die" attitude. Well if you're going to keep playinh what are we supposed to do? |
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Post by power4545 on Oct 9, 2012 10:32:17 GMT -6
I believe it completely depends on the level you are at
At High school I believe in running your offense normal to the 35 point mark to get a running clock, slowly switch in your second string until you get a 7 point cushion from that (42) and then run the ball and have your second or third string in.
At college I think the only point you stop your offense is when you are concerned about the health of your starters. Because at the college level winning by large margins is what allows you to keep your job. And winning by large margins at D1 level affects your bowl ranking.
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Post by coachbw on Oct 9, 2012 11:38:01 GMT -6
They had 8 guys between the C gaps and were just hammering us. Finally the boss had seen enough and called the end-around. Hey, where does it say that we have to keep feeding kids into a meat-grinder? I wouldn't be thrilled if a team did this against us. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I would have to think that Toss, Speed Option, etc. would serve the same purpose. I was thinking bubble screen too, but that brings up the whole issue of passing when ahead which just goes to show how touch this running it up stuff can be. |
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Post by fantom on Oct 9, 2012 11:48:24 GMT -6
They had 8 guys between the C gaps and were just hammering us. Finally the boss had seen enough and called the end-around. Hey, where does it say that we have to keep feeding kids into a meat-grinder? I wouldn't be thrilled if a team did this against us. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I would have to think that Toss, Speed Option, etc. would serve the same purpose. I was thinking bubble screen too, but that brings up the whole issue of passing when ahead which just goes to show how touch this running it up stuff can be. Wouldn't have been an issue if they'd played their normal defense. |
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 9, 2012 12:53:49 GMT -6
Barry Switzer used to say they had to pass to stop scoring..LOL
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Post by coachfloyd on Oct 9, 2012 13:22:56 GMT -6
I think the difference occurs when you obviously outclass the other team talent wise. Ive been on both sides and you get nothing by blowing out a team that really just can't help it.
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Post by coachbuck on Oct 9, 2012 13:33:50 GMT -6
The other side of this is also when your running your base stuff and the opposing coach is sending the house every play, knowing you probbly wont pass. If a coach does that im going to try and score. Im not going to let them destroy our second team guys. I very rarely try and run up the score. Once game is outta hand second team in and we run our base offense. This week we played a team/chapter that is notorious for running up scores so yeah we put it on them pretty good.
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Post by coachdennis on Oct 9, 2012 13:36:18 GMT -6
Here's what does bug me at the youth level - when Johnny Superstar still gets the rock in the fourth quarter of a blowout, even though he has five TDs already. Really, coach? You had no one else to run the ball? There's no excuse for that. (You are tempting the Football Gods in doing this - I'm sorry, but if your meal ticket goes down with an injury late in a blowout, you are an idiot.) By all means, keep playing hard, but for goodness sake empty your bench, and spread the ball around a bit. It's good sportsmanship, and it gives some love to kids on your own team who otherwise don't see the ball much.
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Post by carookie on Oct 9, 2012 16:51:54 GMT -6
* At what point do you think it's running up the score? What kind of margin with how long left in the game? * At what point do you believe you should be pulling your starters and replacing them with second string? * When you do pull starters (if you're lucky enough to have backups) do you have a process for this (i.e. QB first, then RBs, then WRs)? * How do you change your approach to play calling when you have a significant lead and how significant does it need to be? Do you try new things/pass less and run more/stop calling timeouts/etc? * What if you've made your replacements and the opposition still can't stop you? Do you tell players to bring down the intensity? * Have you ever had challenges with second/third stringers who are looking to break into starting spots who go 100mph when you bring them on, possibly making the situation worse? 1- No set parameters, I would hesitate to say when you know the other team can't catch you (because there have been games when we were up 14-0 in the 1st and I knew they couldn't catch us). Also, some matchups are of teams that score a bunch....so being up 28 in the 4th isnt necessarily a safe lead. 2- Depends on the level and work your backups need. HS varsity in general if I completely own a team (90% TD/pos for us and they have less than 1 TD) in the 1st half I'll probably let my starters go 1 possesion into the second half each way. 3- Depends on my depth at each position and who needs work where. 4- Im mostly a D guy (only one year calling O); that one year we blew out almost everyone. My playcalling changed to aim at just picking up 1st downs; and once my backups were in I didn't want to throw deep anyways cause MY OL would get the QB killed 5- No, and Ive been there; you can't tell your kids not to do their best (especially kids who may not play as much). Most realize you're not running it up when your backups score running a conservative offense. 6- See above |
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Post by fballcoachg on Oct 9, 2012 18:00:00 GMT -6
May be a situation where you can quote Justice Potter Stewart...It is hard to define but "I know it when I see it"...therefore it is different to everyone depending on a myriad of factors.
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 9, 2012 21:42:52 GMT -6
Here's what does bug me at the youth level - when Johnny Superstar still gets the rock in the fourth quarter of a blowout, even though he has five TDs already. Really, coach? You had no one else to run the ball? There's no excuse for that. (You are tempting the Football Gods in doing this - I'm sorry, but if your meal ticket goes down with an injury late in a blowout, you are an idiot.) By all means, keep playing hard, but for goodness sake empty your bench, and spread the ball around a bit. It's good sportsmanship, and it gives some love to kids on your own team who otherwise don't see the ball much. I agree with you but what happens when the league wants to see equal play all game? Take our last game, for example. We were up 34-0 at half and our backs had seen equal playing time. Our better HB and FB had scored two TDs a piece and our best QB ran one in as well. We had a good rotation so that all of our backs picked up playing time in the first half. I continue the rotation in the second half, we're still running our offense (Wing-T, pound the ball) but the FB reels off a 40 yard score on a Buck trap in a 2nd and long situation and the HB goes for 65 and a score on a Belly sweep on 3rd and long. And, the FB only got 3 touches in the second half while the HB got 5. Our least athletic back FB/center got the majority of the carries in the second half. The opposing team was playing the same way we were; rotating everyone in equally. Let all the lineman carry the ball?? |
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Post by mariettablue on Oct 10, 2012 0:00:13 GMT -6
Like it has been said, sometimes a team is just that good at the second and third string level and they are going to score. I am so glad football is not a game of handicap like golf. It's the opposing teams job to be prepared to stop the off from scoring. Now, there is a classless way of doing it like with those four plays mentioned earlier but in reality it's still not the team who practiced and got themselves to that level's fault... All I gotta say is look what MTSU did to GT this year and some of the other upsets that were as big this year. What's their excuse for winning?
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Post by coachroberts99 on Oct 10, 2012 7:48:06 GMT -6
Love this quote, and is now very much stolen! Personally I think I've seen running up the score so much more often when a team who is only winning by 21 thinks that doesn't reflect the game so try and pad out the score with a shi**y late effort... going no huddle, play action pass etc. In reality noone woll overly notice if a game is 28-7 or 35-7 but I think that's tacky. One thing I would say and have wrestled with in my own mind is we all have trick/gadget plays and the desire to get real reps of Onside kicks etc, but you aren't going to try them out in a close game.... I've never done it but there have been games when up by 35 when you think in reality this is when you should try the onside kick, then run 3 QB sneaks and punt, lol! As a couple of guys have touched on, I think a lot of it comes down to "not what you do, but the way that you do it", and two teams could run an end around when up by 40, but it's the team who keeps their star back in, then whoops and holla's like they've won the superbowl which pi$$ me off. But hey good luck to them, you just kinda hope it all comes back around next game/next season. |
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Post by coachcb on Oct 10, 2012 8:56:34 GMT -6
I agree with you but what happens when the league wants to see equal play all game? Take our last game, for example. We were up 34-0 at half and our backs had seen equal playing time. Our better HB and FB had scored two TDs a piece and our best QB ran one in as well. We had a good rotation so that all of our backs picked up playing time in the first half. I continue the rotation in the second half, we're still running our offense (Wing-T, pound the ball) but the FB reels off a 40 yard score on a Buck trap in a 2nd and long situation and the HB goes for 65 and a score on a Belly sweep on 3rd and long. And, the FB only got 3 touches in the second half while the HB got 5. Our least athletic back FB/center got the majority of the carries in the second half. The opposing team was playing the same way we were; rotating everyone in equally. Let all the lineman carry the ball?? LOL! It's funny that you mention this because I actually did this in our first two games. I took our least athletic kids (both lineman), coached them up on the FB position and put them in. The officials and the opposing team had some "concerns" because the opposing defense couldn't bring these kids down! It was funny to watch: a 5'6'' 200lb 7th grader dragging defenders for a 5 yard gain. |
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jlt
Junior Member
Posts: 313
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Post by jlt on Oct 11, 2012 8:42:05 GMT -6
Spoonie you know the UK league. In my programs first year we played a certain team in blue. Lets call them the Detroit Lions. They beat us 90-0 and I accused them of running up the score. Last year we beat a team 70-0 and they accused us of running up the score.
Having been on both ends of the spectrum. IN the UK theres not alot you can do. If a team sucks so bad they cant stop freshers scoring on them then maybe they deserve to lose 90-0. And as a winning coach if my freshers are going to put scores on a team to make it 90-0 Im going to get excited.
It will look bad to spectators and the other team but I dont care. If I have a player who ahs only been playing the sport 8 weeks and suddenly on one of his first touches he jukes 2 guys stiff arms a 3rd and out runs the safety, Im going to get excited whether its 8-0 or 80-0.
It happens to everyone at least once. The trick is to be gracious in victory. What I do is this. If we are up 50+ I have my guys play 100% until we are in the time zone where we can kneel. Then we kneel it out. That even meant taking a knee on the oppisition 4 yard line last season. I told the Offence that they should have scored sooner if they wanted it that bad.
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Post by coachguy83 on Oct 11, 2012 12:26:31 GMT -6
My general rule is I want to get the game to running clock (+40 in the second half in IL). After that I'm going to put in my twos and threes, but my play calling isn't going to change. I have no issue with a team throwing on me when up big as long as they have back ups in.
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Post by WTR on Oct 12, 2012 11:25:09 GMT -6
If you clearly have the opponent out manned you should always call the dogs off and limit the scoring. Never embarrass your opponent. Keep in mind these are kids.
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Post by 33coach on Oct 12, 2012 12:33:21 GMT -6
For me...running up the score is very simple.
If you can score at will. And your up by 28 or more. Its time to slow down and start chewing clock instead of trying to score.
It may happen again but the fact is...at that point..you should keep the clock running as long as possible when you are on offense.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 13, 2012 11:44:38 GMT -6
I agree, we are here to teach kids about the game and about life not embarrass kids. Onside kicks, playaction passes, reverse plays, and HB Passes are the four plays that should be cut from the playbook when you have a big lead. We ran an end-around a few years ago with a big lead. Scored on it and never felt bad about it for a second. Here's what happened: We were in the fourth quarter and the seconds and thirds had been in the game for most of the second half. We were doing the "right thing" and running isos and powers but the opponent had their firsts in and were bringing the house every play. Our young kids were getting murdered. They had 8 guys between the C gaps and were just hammering us. Finally the boss had seen enough and called the end-around. Hey, where does it say that we have to keep feeding kids into a meat-grinder? It seems like there are guys who want to have it both ways. They don't want to have the score run up on them (and I agree with them. Remember, we were TRYING to keep the score down) but they want to instill a "never say die" attitude. Well if you're going to keep playinh what are we supposed to do? Agreed. Had the exact same scenario about 10 years. Mid-4th qt. We are up 49-7. Frosh-soph team has been in game since second series of second half. Only difference was we called a PA pass and the kid was wide open...I mean, no one within 20 yards of him when he caught the ball. Literally jogged 70 yards for the TD. I did not feel badly about it one bit. At the end of the game, I had words with their coach. He refused to shake my hand and said, "That was really bull$hit of you to call that pass play with you guys up 49-7. That is just bush league" I said, "What is bull$hit is that we have had our frosh-soph in since halftime ad you still have your juniors and seniors in and are playing 11 in the box and blitzing every play. We aren't going to let you whale on our freshmen and sophomores with your varsity kids." Guy goes on to say, "that's fine, Coach...we will remember this." I said, "So will we." |
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Post by 19delta on Oct 13, 2012 11:54:41 GMT -6
One of my biggest pet peeves on "running up the score" is that people see a big number and just assume one team was unsportsmanlike about it. I was on the wrong end of an 84-8 game several seasons ago and I can honestly say the other team wasn't being unsportsmanlike about it--they had a lot of backups in, scored 4 or 5 defense/special teams TDs, we turned it over several times in the redzone or we may have more, etc. On the other hand, I was on the wrong end of a 42-14 game two years ago, and the other team was very unsportsmanlike about it, going so far as to no-huddle and throw a couple hail-mary type passes on us with starters trying to tack on one more. We had a team around here winning a game 88-0 at halftime back in 2005. The score was not being run up. The other team was simply awful...terrible "spread" team that threw 7 first-half INTs (4 of which were returned for TDs) and they couldn't tackle (3 punts and the opening kickoff were all returned for TDs). In fact, the team that scored 88 points only ran about 10 plays on offense the entire first half. Thing is, if you suck, you shouldn't be running an offense that makes you suck even more. |
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Post by mrjvi on Oct 13, 2012 19:14:16 GMT -6
Very ironic Delta. Last night we had the almost EXACT same thing. I had my 2nds and 3rds in for the whole 2nd half. I put 2 freshmen backs in during the 4th quarter. They kept their 1st team in the absolute whole game so when we were within our own 10, I put just my 1st o-line in with those 3rd string backs. They had been killing our 2nds with their first defense. I wanted the 3rd backs to get some time without getting hurt from their 1st D. Our second d had been in the whole 2nd half and the other team couldn't score. One of the 3rd string freshmen backs broke for a 72 yard TD. Oh well. Usually the losing team puts their 2nds in to call off the dogs but I did it and they didn't and had the balls to make a crazy scene after the game and said "We'll remember this". Bizarre and illogical.
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Post by 33coach on Oct 14, 2012 1:43:46 GMT -6
Semi related.
So my kicker got cute in our last game..(we were up 24-0) and decided he was going to ignore my directional call and kick an onside.
Of course the opposing staff did not like that one bit. (And neither did i.) So i called time out. Walked over to the kid and told him to go to the opposing head coach and apologize for his lack of sportsmanship. He did. And everything was good.
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