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Post by fballcoachg on Aug 30, 2012 6:39:45 GMT -6
May be a dumb question, but I was just reading back through the posts (gotta love Silent Sustained Reading) and something struck me.
What is the difference between a question and a discussion? I'm not talking semantics, seriously asking because I thought that the questions stoked the discussion. Now I understand the "Does anyone have info on the _____ Offense/Defense" doesn't really make for much conversation but there are questions that do incite a solid discussion with ideas being bounced back and forth. Maybe that's what you are talking about and I'm not really functioning this morning, just trying to clear it up.
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Post by CoachCP on Aug 30, 2012 7:18:22 GMT -6
Here's my one thing, and yes, it's targeted at vets on the board who respond to a certain type of thread.
When a person is specific, saying "We're transitioning from SBV to a more Pro Style I, how do you coach X, Y, or Z"... don't immediately say, "WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT COACH" "DO WHAT YOU KNOW" or my favorite "JUST RUN THE DOUBLE WING COACH!" Instead, just ignore the thread. Let someone who knows about the Pro Style I, or has experience transitioning, answer. The bottom line is, I feel like whenever I put a post up about scheme, I have to qualify it saying something like, "The decision's been made, this is happening, don't try to convince me otherwise".
Some people will say you need to make sure the coach understands. Well, maybe you should try to understand their perspective. Maybe the coach is transitioning because the head coach made them (and he's trying to coach up his position), or maybe it's simply because that thing they're supposed to know (the SBV in our example) is no longer working and they're ready to move on to a new scheme.
A lot of teams transition and are successful. We went from a .500 wing-t team to a multiple state/semi-final appearance team as a pro-style offense. Pretty much all the important staff had coached the Wing-T for years, so why make the transition? Because we felt it was in the best interest for the team (clearly we were right). Is there a learning curve, yes, but it made a huge difference.
The Wing-T got our best linemen hurt later in the season (because they were undersized pounding on guys twice they're size). We had big kids who ended up quitting by their junior year because they we not fast enough for the Wing-T and were not playing, or if they did they weren't as successful. Now, our big kids can play line and be successful, even early on, and our smaller guys who were great guards can become great high school linebackers or fullbacks, and take far less pounding.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 30, 2012 8:51:52 GMT -6
"2. The OP is too tied up on Xs and Os and not coaching which p-sses everyone off too."
If I had a dollar for every time I've said "I don't care if we run 1 play all year as long as it's blocked right" I'd be on an island sipping Jameson right about now.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 30, 2012 9:05:34 GMT -6
Now, our big kids can play line and be successful, even early on, and our smaller guys who were great guards can become great high school linebackers or fullbacks, and take far less pounding. Your fullbacks and linebackers take less of a pounding than wing-t guards? Has your wing-t offensive line always gotten hurt (for the last ten years)? Or did y'all just have one bad year with multiple injuries on the wing-t line? I am glad y'all did so well making the switch to pro-style from the wing-t. Was that the only difference? Did you have a better defense or better kicking game? A new coach? A new weightroom or better workouts? Was your personnel better? Did you have a stud QB or RB get older or move in? Did you move up or down a division or change regions? Did some opponents move up/down a division? Schedule easier? Could you have just become more pro-style in the wing-t and gotten the same result (i.e. thrown more or used more/different formations)? It just seems odd that just a switch from the wing-t to a pro-style would account for such a drastic change in your fortunes. From .500 to semi/state finals. Especially when the wing-t is still winning high school state championships across the country. No matter the reason, keep believing in what you do and keep up the good work!
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spoonie
Sophomore Member
Posts: 115
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Post by spoonie on Aug 30, 2012 9:06:15 GMT -6
Coach, I'll come to that island but we've got to be sipping something better. I'll bring a few bottles of single malt with me ;-)
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Post by fantom on Aug 30, 2012 10:32:48 GMT -6
Here's my one thing, and yes, it's targeted at vets on the board who respond to a certain type of thread. When a person is specific, saying "We're transitioning from SBV to a more Pro Style I, how do you coach X, Y, or Z"... don't immediately say, "WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT COACH" "DO WHAT YOU KNOW" or my favorite "JUST RUN THE DOUBLE WING COACH!" Instead, just ignore the thread. Let someone who knows about the Pro Style I, or has experience transitioning, answer. The bottom line is, I feel like whenever I put a post up about scheme, I have to qualify it saying something like, "The decision's been made, this is happening, don't try to convince me otherwise". Some people will say you need to make sure the coach understands. Well, maybe you should try to understand their perspective. Maybe the coach is transitioning because the head coach made them (and he's trying to coach up his position), or maybe it's simply because that thing they're supposed to know (the SBV in our example) is no longer working and they're ready to move on to a new scheme. A lot of teams transition and are successful. We went from a .500 wing-t team to a multiple state/semi-final appearance team as a pro-style offense. Pretty much all the important staff had coached the Wing-T for years, so why make the transition? Because we felt it was in the best interest for the team (clearly we were right). Is there a learning curve, yes, but it made a huge difference. The Wing-T got our best linemen hurt later in the season (because they were undersized pounding on guys twice they're size). We had big kids who ended up quitting by their junior year because they we not fast enough for the Wing-T and were not playing, or if they did they weren't as successful. Now, our big kids can play line and be successful, even early on, and our smaller guys who were great guards can become great high school linebackers or fullbacks, and take far less pounding. 1. If you can't answer a question about why you want to change your system you're probably doomed to failure. 2. If it's May or June and you're asking basic questions about transitioning to a new scheme about which you know next to nothing you're probably doomed to failure. 3. If you're committed to transitioning to a new system and want to get a lot if your knowledge of that scheme from a message board you're probably doomed to failure.
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Post by blb on Aug 30, 2012 11:00:29 GMT -6
To piggyback on what fantom posted I would suggest you should know everything you can about the "new" scheme BEFORE you decide if you're going to change or not.
And also write the names of your players in at the positions in the proposed Offense or Defense. If they don't fit, don't make the switch.
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Post by mahonz on Aug 30, 2012 11:39:13 GMT -6
I became a Member way back in the early days and have noticed the overall attitude of the forum to be much less tolerant now.
I just chalk that up to growth. More personalities…more discussions…more issues. Something that cant be helped I suppose. Doesn’t bother me at all.
Still the on point info that flows thru here is gold even if its a rehash of a three year old thread. Always a new idea to pick up here and there.
Cant even begin to tell all of you how much I learn right here. Keep up the good work. It is appreciated even if you might not know that directly.
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Post by CS on Aug 30, 2012 11:40:02 GMT -6
You can take what I say with a grain of salt if you would like and I have put dumb crap on here but sometimes I hate going into a post that I think is interesting and it's a bunch of pretentious dbags not answering the question asked but turning their nose up at the question or basically posting like whoever is a jackass. Live and let live
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Post by CoachCP on Aug 30, 2012 11:59:24 GMT -6
Was it the only reason we were succesful, no. Was it the most drastic reason, yes. And yes, they take less of a beating at linebacker and the fullback spots, it's not even a question. They hit probably cut their collisions down 20-30%, and now we're using their best asset (athleticism) in a position that better fits our league and level of play. That's besides the point though.
I think a coach putting up his thoughts on a transition here is not a sign of failure or future failure. It's a sign of wanting to learn. I feel like a coach today does have it easier than 10 years ago (they can ask Huey, google it, find a blog, etc...) but just because they can do these things should not mean we cast them aside or critique them. It means they're using Huey as a tool to connect with coaches. Maybe that turns into a phone conversation, or a visit. Regardless, one post doesn't mean you know the context of their decision, and you shouldn't try to assume it (which is often the case). It's one thing to ask for the context, it's another just to start saying "don't switch" or whatever.
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Post by fantom on Aug 30, 2012 12:26:25 GMT -6
I think a coach putting up his thoughts on a transition here is not a sign of failure or future failure. It's a sign of wanting to learn. I feel like a coach today does have it easier than 10 years ago (they can ask Huey, google it, find a blog, etc...) but just because they can do these things should not mean we cast them aside or critique them. It means they're using Huey as a tool to connect with coaches. Maybe that turns into a phone conversation, or a visit. Regardless, one post doesn't mean you know the context of their decision, and you shouldn't try to assume it (which is often the case). It's one thing to ask for the context, it's another just to start saying "don't switch" or whatever. As has been said a number of times it depends on how a question is asked and when it's asked. If he says, "We're looking into a 4-2-5. I don't know much about it. Can anybody help me with the basics so that I can start researching it?" I don't think most people would have a problem with that. If the question is, "We're going to run a 4-2-5 next year. What is it?" why would it be unreasonable to ask why? If the poster is starting at that level and it's later than January or February at latest the probability that he can learn the ins and outs of a system well enough to be successful with it next season are poor. If my HC came in in May and announced that we're going to switch to an Air Raid offense, in which neither he or anybody on our staff has any background, I'd do everything in my power to talk him out of it. Why should I treat you guys differently?
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Post by coachcb on Aug 30, 2012 12:39:19 GMT -6
I guess I would like to see more specificity within questions. Many threads tend to fly off in to a dozen different tangents if they're phrased vaguely.
Take fantoms's 4-2-5 example. Post specific questions pertaining to the 4-2-5 in all of the defensive boards. Ask about the coverages, the fronts, stunts, and drills within the scheme within those boards. It makes it much easier to answer questions. It also makes for a better discussion.
Personally, I do some research off of the boarrd before I post a question so that I can make sure I am being very specific.
When
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Post by fantom on Aug 30, 2012 13:20:03 GMT -6
BTW, the idea that an assistant should blindly do what the HC tells him to do without at least trying to change his mind reminds me of this.
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Post by mattyg2787 on Aug 30, 2012 15:15:47 GMT -6
Our new oc bought in an entirely new offense this year (Flexbone) after our team has been some form of spread for the last 5 years. Let me tell you, it was met with a lot of resistance. His whole argument was that we have always run a mismash of plays and struggled on o since losing our 6'5" qb with a canon instead of an arm. I backed our oc all the way (as anyone here whos read my posts would guess) That said, me and him spent hours watching dvds, reading books and tailing stuff out to make sure it was going to click (nb.still just a player for this team) and even now that we are in season, he is still asking me how everything is looking (which isn't great when your playing at guard)
So to sum up, we switched offenses but this was all decided back in January when he got the job, he had already done some looking into it, then did a whole lot more. Which is why we are 1-0 and looking to be up 40 points by half time tomorrow.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 31, 2012 6:24:21 GMT -6
Look, I do want to make one thing clear, I'm not BASHING this board, I'm just saying it's gotten a little repetitive and somewhat stale. I don't know, I think of this board like a bunch of coaches sitting at a bar after clinic hours, BS'in, comparing notes, what works for you, how you do it, etc. I agree DC, and I think this is probably why you feel this way Duece. As I said earlier...the vets have their stories, they have their explanations....and after a while the party just gets a little stale.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 31, 2012 7:12:03 GMT -6
Re assistants and challenges/questions, I think there's a time and place. Challenging someone's decisions or asking "why" to everything, especially after a hot, frustrating practice, can lead to some aggressive responses. Especially if the assistant just hasn't been listening.
If someone is really confused as to why we're cutting down our splits on trap, asking "why are we doing that?" will probably drive your HC or OC nuts. That's probably something either a) you should already know or b) you should bite your tongue and google that puppy later.
I think there are bad questions in coaching, or there are questions that you shouldn't ask a group full of coaches if you (claim) you've been coaching for years. I think that's where a lot of my frustrations come from re new coaches.
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Post by blb on Aug 31, 2012 7:56:57 GMT -6
You can take what I say with a grain of salt if you would like and I have put dumb crap on here but sometimes I hate going into a post that I think is interesting and it's a bunch of pretentious dbags not answering the question asked but turning their nose up at the question or basically posting like whoever is a jackass. Live and let live I'm all for professionalism, mutual respect, civility - but also been my experience that if you can't stand to have your balls busted once in awhile you may be too sensitive to last in this line of work.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 31, 2012 7:59:51 GMT -6
"if you can't stand to have your balls busted once in awhile you may be too sensitive to last in this line of work"
+1
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Post by CS on Aug 31, 2012 9:49:10 GMT -6
You can take what I say with a grain of salt if you would like and I have put dumb crap on here but sometimes I hate going into a post that I think is interesting and it's a bunch of pretentious dbags not answering the question asked but turning their nose up at the question or basically posting like whoever is a jackass. Live and let live I'm all for professionalism, mutual respect, civility - but also been my experience that if you can't stand to have your balls busted once in awhile you may be too sensitive to last in this line of work. Very true. I actually had a few threads in mind when I wrote that. Can't think of what they were about now and it may have been a general kinda dumb question but their are some people on this board who think there $h/t don't stink. And I was more complaining about the douchbaggery than the making someone feel like a jackass. Hell I'm a jackass
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Post by cqmiller on Aug 31, 2012 9:58:26 GMT -6
I think for those of us who have been here since the beginning (or close), sometimes it feels as if we have answered the same questions over and over again and it can get frustrating to do so time and time again... With that being said, I still think being forced to think critically about what I do, why I do it, and how I do it is very important in the development as a coach. I was a huge "cover 3 can solve the world" guy when I first started, but now play much more quarters as I have thought about it, and tried to implement it. Do I have all the answers... not even close! But if I didn't at least buy into my own BS then I wouldn't be fit for being in charge of a football program. We have a tough one tonight against a team that on film and schematically looks far below average, but every year they play our school they seem to play out of their minds. First week of school, dealing with parents/players/rules/admin/etc... and sometimes it just makes me feel good that I can get on here and read other coaches venting about the same stuff that is driving me nuts. Hopefully as the new people get more familiar with the board they will start to incorporate little bits and pieces of my stuff if it applies to them and it fits in with their philosophy. I am 29 years old, have been coaching for 11 years and still don't know 1/2 as much as some of the "old-timers" like OJW, FBdoc, and the elders of the board (sorry for calling you two out! )
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Post by blb on Aug 31, 2012 9:58:27 GMT -6
their are some people on this board who think there $h/t don't stink. The board members who think they know it all are annoying to those of us who really do. ;D
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Post by CS on Aug 31, 2012 10:43:34 GMT -6
their are some people on this board who think there $h/t don't stink. The board members who think they know it all are annoying to those of us who really do. ;D Lol
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Post by dsqa on Aug 31, 2012 12:15:50 GMT -6
Having been here since day 1, I can definitely attest to the "been there, covered that," in terms of material. However, I'm a ball coach who starts over every year like everyone else does with a new crop and teaches like I've never done it... and I would do it all over again if I was asked. What seems to have changed is that some the new blood are heavily "twittered", in that they appear to be looking for soundbyte answers to some reasonably complicated things...especially tough to cover quickly on a board...so much is skimmed over for the latest and greatest X and O. You can almost see their eyes glaze over in your mind as you try to work through the question always asking yourself, should I tell them what they want to hear, or what they need to hear? Forget any gratitude for the effort, they expect what they get, just like my kids, but because they just don't have the attention span or interest in drilling down on something to really understand it - makes it tough to give them the "good stuff." At least not on a message board in these days...it's not how they think...small, quick responses...I guess we need to have an elevator speech for the FACEMELTER offense now..
Truth is, they probably know all this already, just like we did :-) They just need us to tell them they are right.
FWIW,
I've enjoyed this thread a great deal, great points have been made and this board has impacted my life profoundly as a coach. Personally, I have well over 350 single spaced full pages of written posts in a hard drive file that I had to work very hard to create. I did it because I've always so respected the intent, purpose, and questions of highly motivated coaches on this board...thank you all for challenging me to be a better coach and for not letting me ever get away with one-line, cliche filled concepts. You've made me think...a lot!!!!
Good Luck tonight!
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Post by gdoggwr on Aug 31, 2012 13:04:17 GMT -6
...Truth is, they probably know all this already, just like we did :-) They just need us to tell them they are right... I think this is what gets me annoyed. Like many on here I've grow leaps and bounds as a coach because of this board. It makes you think, the answers can challenge you to think, etc. Because of this when I ask a question on here I expect a critically thought out response. I respect the opinions of many on this board and do my best to assume that the others that post know what they are talking about. I try to listen to them. That doesn't mean that I'll blindly follow them, but I do consider all answers when I post a question, then make my own decision. Some posters (and it seams to me to be increasing) ask very general questions either because they didn't phrase it correctly or they believe that coaching the game is as simple as "just run what Oregon runs." Generally they back up my impression by becoming very defensive when someone tries to give them an answer other than "you've just figured it out, the facemelter is unbeatable, you're a genius." They don't listen, which I expect from high school kids, even high school players, but it annoys me when adults have that same kind of give me the easy answer attitude. I would image that many others share my frustration, and sometimes we don't always take the high ground when dealing with that attitude yet again. On a slightly different note, I also find it interesting that while there are still posts all the time asking how to run what oregon does, or the auburn/malzahn offense. Very few have asked how to run or coach Alabama's offense... I don't know, maybe I'm the idiot here but I get where the frustration comes from.
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Post by tog on Sept 2, 2012 6:30:35 GMT -6
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Post by olinecoach61 on Sept 2, 2012 7:01:32 GMT -6
The search function on this site is awful. I've never tried the google idea, it may help.
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Post by pmeisel on Sept 2, 2012 10:18:54 GMT -6
We were all born naked and crying. But some think more and work harder than others......
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Post by jlenwood on Sept 2, 2012 19:51:32 GMT -6
I think a coach putting up his thoughts on a transition here is not a sign of failure or future failure. It's a sign of wanting to learn. I feel like a coach today does have it easier than 10 years ago (they can ask Huey, google it, find a blog, etc...) but just because they can do these things should not mean we cast them aside or critique them. It means they're using Huey as a tool to connect with coaches. Maybe that turns into a phone conversation, or a visit. Regardless, one post doesn't mean you know the context of their decision, and you shouldn't try to assume it (which is often the case). It's one thing to ask for the context, it's another just to start saying "don't switch" or whatever. I think this may be an answer to alot of the discussion on this thread. Coaches do have it easier today compared to 10 years ago as far as gathering information. This is a great research tool to me, I can get on this board and RESEARCH a question I may have and in 10 minutes I have found what I am looking for. With google and youtube, you can look up just about any aspect of coaching football and get information instantly,which doesn't mean it is good information, but it is something to make you think. Now, what you do with that instant information is what separates a coach who spends his career learning, or being a coach who regurgitates info and never fully learns the subject. Here is how some of my "dumb" questions have gone on this board, I posted in May that I needed some info on special teams. We were short of coaches and I was appointed to a position I knew nothing about. Now I am sure that the post looked "dumb", as there were some comments made, but through some pm's and guidance to other sources, I was able to accelerate the learning curve tremendously. I was linked to some power points, some dvd's that would help and just good general information to start with. I don't know if that would have been the case 10 years ago.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2012 9:21:50 GMT -6
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Post by CS on Sept 5, 2012 10:08:18 GMT -6
Ok I get that but his status is lurker. Clearly this guy is lazy but I know some coaches who are stupid, lazy and think they know it all so they won't even waste their time with a stupid question. I don't have your experience as a coach or on this message board but there are a lot of discussions on here that are that way. Even if they are detailed questions, every answer can be found on line in a book or with just plain old fashioned experience. Stuff like what's in the link will never go away
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