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Post by jlenwood on Aug 28, 2012 6:34:44 GMT -6
Something else to think about as far as coaches (new or old) not researching, look at the follow up question to a "dumb" question from the original poster. If it basically is asking for the same thing, then I would say it is safe to assume the poster did no other research on the topic. If however, the second comment shows some thought, that is a good discussion to me.
Case in point is go to the special teams section. There are a lot of first time ST coordinators that post there (ie:me) and I am sure my original questions seemed dumb. But with input and direction from more seasoned ST coordinators, I was able to go directly to information sites or videos to get the info I needed without spending a lot of hours stumbling around looking for answers. Now I feel I can add something, not much yet, but something to the conversations on special teams That is what will be missed from newbies to a topic if we don't respond.
I also think a lot of people miss out on another great resource here and that is the blogs and web sites that so many of the members here have listed under their name. I have picked up more info from those sites than any clinic or video some times. Again, that just goes to research. Either you have a desire to learn or you are lazy and want immediate answers to everything, and I think that is what duece was hitting on.
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Post by spartancoach on Aug 28, 2012 6:42:38 GMT -6
Every walk of life has innovators, critical thinkers, dolts, and lazy arses. Football coaches are no different.
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Post by coachklee on Aug 28, 2012 6:48:06 GMT -6
The one thing that baffles me, personally, is some of the basic questions that are coming from guys who hold a COORDINATOR title..... They always make me think WTF...or guys that have Coordinators/HCs that don't provide them enough help. Makes me stop and think that some kids are really getting hosed because their coaches know nothing! Anyways, I think all posts should be welcome...but honestly, the best learning that I have had on here has been picking a thread and reading through the whole thing...especially the stickied threads such as "4-2-5 Serious Discussion, Double Dive, Zone Styles, even most of the original 10-1 Defense". If your a new guy, take a month or so and read through some of the threads...especially if they are multiple pages long.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 7:08:00 GMT -6
I don't post on here as much as I used to, but that's mainly due to time than anything else, not a reflection of the board. Just a couple of things I wanted to chime in on, although one of them has been addressed already.
Coachd5085 had a good point on the post count. If you see a question that seems "elementary" it's probably coming from a new user and/or inexperienced coach. Someone mentioned earlier about going back and looking at their early posts; I've actually done that! Kind of embarrasing, but you have to start somewhere in developing your knowledge.
Someone also mentioned the organization of this site. Maybe I just don't go to enough "x's and o's" sites, but to me this one is pretty organized with all the topics and sub-topics.
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Post by 42falcon on Aug 28, 2012 7:37:29 GMT -6
We need an asynchronous white board app that embeds into discussions
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 28, 2012 8:23:43 GMT -6
Much like any message board (i go to 2 others: 1 for football coaching, and 1 as a fan) there's good, bad, and ugly posters. Most of the ugly are U21. Most of the HOF types are the older guys that know what to say and how to say it. Coaching is communication. Period. Communication to admin, boosters, parents, kids, media, assistants...
I'd venture a guess some of the incoherent or "bad" posts are guys still learning how to communicate, probably both on the field and off! We can't fix that by ignoring them, probably more so by offering suggestions. I tell ya what, I'm always nervous to post on here because some of our posters are intimidating (W/L record, experience, big name, or even just harsh).
I have to laugh at the part about Madden, who comes to a COACHING site when they "coach" the Lions on Madden? That's just weird. I hadn't noticed that, but I don't read every post. The funniest yet most aggravating show ever was the Madden Challenge show. "I'm going to run cover 2" OOOF.
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Post by lochness on Aug 28, 2012 9:12:43 GMT -6
Much like any message board (i go to 2 others: 1 for football coaching, and 1 as a fan) there's good, bad, and ugly posters. Most of the ugly are U21. Most of the HOF types are the older guys that know what to say and how to say it. Coaching is communication. Period. Communication to admin, boosters, parents, kids, media, assistants... I'd venture a guess some of the incoherent or "bad" posts are guys still learning how to communicate, probably both on the field and off! We can't fix that by ignoring them, probably more so by offering suggestions. I tell ya what, I'm always nervous to post on here because some of our posters are intimidating (W/L record, experience, big name, or even just harsh). I have to laugh at the part about Madden, who comes to a COACHING site when they "coach" the Lions on Madden? That's just weird. I hadn't noticed that, but I don't read every post. The funniest yet most aggravating show ever was the Madden Challenge show. "I'm going to run cover 2" OOOF. The Madden / NCAA Playstation guys don't usually announce themselves as such...but a trained eye can tell...trust me.
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Post by lochness on Aug 28, 2012 9:23:43 GMT -6
I'm not at all advocating that people shouldn't ask questions. We tell our kids that there ARE "no dumb questions," and I think that is mostly (not entirely) true.
My point of debate is more about what the internet has done to coaching. I'd argue that it's a double-edged sword. On the obvious side it allows coaches to educate themselves, network, share ideas etc.
I truly believe there is a potentially severe negative consequence however:
Lots of coaches now RELY on message boards and blogs to obtain their coaching knowledge and philosophy. I think this dulls our instincts and gives us an artificial knowledge base that was not gained through the more painful trial-and-error. That painful trial-and-error process is how we learn and grow as coaches (at least it was for me). It took seasons upon seasons for us to develop our techniques, schemes, methods, etc...and I wouldn't trade a second of that experience. We didn't develop our coverage packages by reading message boards about TCU's packages. We developed them based on seeing varied formations, run attacks, and pass schemes of varied opponents and evolving our existing stuff to handle what we were seeing. The funny thing is that we come to the same conclusions of some of these "modern" schemes...but we got there through a creative process, not by being spoon-fed an answer. To me, aside from dealing with hard-working kids...that trial-and-error development of "what you do" is THE most enjoyable thing about coaching.
I think it's fantastic that so much information and networking is available to coaches now...but I caution EVERYONE to use this information correctly / wisely. Pick up nuggets or ideas out here and APPLY them to your creative process. It's the guys looking for "THE" answer who drive me crazy. The guys looking for the playbooks make me even more mental. Dude, draw up your own playbook. Every circle, every line, every arrow. That's how you LEARN. I'll never understand why anyone would want to buy or adapt an offensive or defensive system. I'm so proud that what we do is our "own." I don't use someone else's terminology or ideas. Sure, the concepts are nothing new...but again, we arrived at them through trial, error, and research. I think when coaches just get answers handed to them, it's like handing a kid a calculator that will do Geometry proofs for them. You aren't actually LEARNING anything about the details or the WHY's of what you're doing. And, to me, that's dangerous and will dull your instincts and abilities.
Thanks to anyone who reads this and takes some reflective time to think about how you arrive at coaching solutions. The availability of knowledge is a great thing...but you need to be wise enough to understand how to apply it and to what extent.
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 28, 2012 10:27:11 GMT -6
loch- I'm with you 100%. You can't only learn from downloading the Oregon offense. I've seen some youth games where you can tell the coach, who has them in the zone-read from the gun, says "just move your arms around near his gut and then run with the ball" to the QB. There is no read, there's no mesh, there's no late pull, just garbage. Then kids come to us and have no idea what reads are.
The Madden/NCAA guys are probably just bad coaches too, I SEE IT AT THE SMALL BALL LEVEL DAILY!! Ask Monty Vann what he found on the computer when he took over at his school.
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Post by Chris Clement on Aug 28, 2012 10:35:43 GMT -6
Didn't we have an embedded google function here at one point? Then we had to go back to the default one. Unfortunately Google's search algorithm isn't designed for searching forums, but it does an ok job.
Maybe a better reference section would help, a series of articles to which we can refer all the threads that ask "4-3 Under vs Wing-T HELP!!!" They're valid questions from new coaches and we can't sticky every FAQ thread, but we can probably come up with something.
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Post by fantom on Aug 28, 2012 10:38:15 GMT -6
I agree that this is a double-edged sword.
The board is a great source of information. I've been doing this for over 30 years and I still get good stuff here all the time. New members are the life blood of the board. Sites that don't get new members eventually wither and die. That's why I think that we need to be patient with "dumb" questions. I'd hate to see somebody intimidated away from the board.
I do understand the frustration with answering the same question over and over. I've been on the board since the beginning and was on Toby's before that. I find myself posting much less on X and O questions and notice that other old-timers do, too.
As for "dumb" questions, well start shaking your fist and yelling, "You kids get off my lawn". You're officially old.
It's frustrating that many younger coaches don't want to put anything into getting better. I hate hearing stuff like, "I can't afford to go to clinics". I've slept on many a hotel floor to get to them. If the school didn't pay for it the way I figured it, the knowledge that I gained went with me when I moved.
To sum my feelings up, be patient with "dumb" questions. The guys who use this as their only source of info? We'll beat them.
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Post by 33coach on Aug 28, 2012 11:41:34 GMT -6
This is the only board i participate in. Mostly to help others. But even ask my own questions. I would hate to see a day when someone is punished for asking a 'beginner question' we were all beginners at one point.
Do you know how many threads ive been apart of that had me going...'i thought everyone knew this' BUT i kept it to myself and answered it politely and to the best of my abilities.
At the end of the day. Grow up. Suck it up and help people.
Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 11:58:26 GMT -6
I don't mind helping, he!! I've helped as much as anybody, but there is a GREAT saying that goes:
"Catch a man a fish and he eats for a day...teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime."
That's what I'm really getting at. Don't spoonfeed these guys, make them think, ask them questions back and I think they'll get more out of the interaction than just "Run the Under".
Duece
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Post by IronmanFootball on Aug 28, 2012 12:17:23 GMT -6
what if they ask "under what?"
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Post by mariner42 on Aug 28, 2012 12:44:39 GMT -6
A couple research habits that helped me learn a lot and that still get mileage: 1-Sort by replies, read all the threads with lots of replies. I've read most've the big threads in the defense sections, for example. 2-Sort by subject, alphabetically. Think about what you're wanting to know and potential thread titles that would be relevant, then go find them. Example: wanted more info on Lochness' Belly/Double Dive series. So, went through all the B's (Belly) and D's (Double Dive) looking for info. I also went through Loch's post history a bit, too. In the most flattering and harmless way possible, I assure you.
As to the topic as a whole, this is a bit of a rough subject with the life and development of any message board because it invariably leads to a degree of repetition for the older/longer tenured members. For example: I browse a site called Reddit a lot and one of the subsections I dig is the male fashion subsection (I'm 27 and single, f*** off). Unfortunately, it is always full of people who are fairly clueless about how to dress themselves asking for advice on how to dress themselves and it gets repetitive for the people running the show. Buy clothes that fit, throw out your Star Wars T shirts, tuck your shirt in, etc. It's not unlike people coming to the defensive section and asking how to run a 4-3 defense: teach them to align, teach them their assignment, get them to run to the ball, slowly add complexity.
In a way, it's our 'civic duty' to keep answering the same questions. But it does get really, really, really boring and repetitive. It's easier to deal with specific questions like "How do you teach 9 tech OLBs to wrong arm?" than "How do I teach to spill?", but learning to ask a good question is harder than it seems and I'm not sure how to accelerate that process, to be honest.
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Post by coachseth on Aug 28, 2012 12:45:59 GMT -6
loch- I'm with you 100%. You can't only learn from downloading the Oregon offense. I've seen some youth games where you can tell the coach, who has them in the zone-read from the gun, says "just move your arms around near his gut and then run with the ball" to the QB. There is no read, there's no mesh, there's no late pull, just garbage. Then kids come to us and have no idea what reads are. The Madden/NCAA guys are probably just bad coaches too, I SEE IT AT THE SMALL BALL LEVEL DAILY!! Ask Monty Vann what he found on the computer when he took over at his school. I coach against a guy yearly (sometimes twice a year) who is a daddy coach and runs what he calls the "Oklahoma State Offense". In reality, he runs four verts and a play I like to call "chase off all the defensive backs and linebackers and run like hell". It's frustrating coaching against guys like that, because even though I openly admit to playing games like Madden and NCAA Football I don't take direct reference from it. I may see a formation on there that I don't know much about, then I come ask this board and do research. But I'm also there at the clinics in Feb, busting my ass to try and learn more about football. I think this forum can be used as one part of the formula. I'm a young coach, and I probably don't know nearly as much as I should. But part of learning is looking over playbooks, reading forums, going to clinics, and asking questions. As frustrating as it may be for older more experienced coaches, younger guys are going to ask stupid questions (one of mine was asking about the Wingbone, mostly because I've only seen parts of it and it was interesting to me). So while I understand why it may be easy to lose your nerve and go 50 shades of pissed off on someone, you have to remember most of the time these guys are just trying to get better for the sake of their kids/teenagers/maybe slightly older players.
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Post by 4verts on Aug 28, 2012 13:01:14 GMT -6
Make a sub-category for beginners offense, defense, special teams, etc... If you feel like going in there to help out a new guy go for it. If you hate elementary subjects or questions don't frequent that part of the site. Bam problem solved.
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Post by cqmiller on Aug 28, 2012 13:15:31 GMT -6
I generally do not have time to post during the season anywhere as much as I do when it is the offseason. Right now we are in week 3 of the season and the "hay is in the barn" so to speak. Doing any overhauls of system at this point in time is not going to be successful so I spend most of my days watching our film and trying to correct mistakes and note if something we are doing is not working the way we are teaching it.
During the offseason, I have much more time to sit down, read questions, and honestly help people with philosophy, strategy, etc... I have noticed that lately there have been more questions along the lines of, "what offense do I run, or what defense do I run" then there was a while back. People hate when I say "run the one you are most comfortable with, but here is how we teach it..." Seems like a lot of the younger coaches are looking for a "silver bullet" that will make them win every time.
Offensively we run a "multiple-pro" offense where we have zone/stretch, power/counter as our 4 base run-plays. Basic pass plays are 3-step hitch/seam, slant/arrow, double slants, and fade/seam. PAP we run a couple of flood concepts and naked/bootleg.
Defensively we run a "4-3" where we squeeze and wrongarm everything with the DL, read OL and scrape with the LB's and play 1/4's or 3 behind it depending on the offense we are facing each week.
The trick is getting the kids enough reps and teaching them enough each day to make them learn, grow, and become better players within whatever system you have. I have moved a kid from safety last season on the JV team to my starting WLB this year because he was the one kid in my program other than my returning MLB that I would trust to be physical enough to hold up inside and listens when coached. 1st game he has 14 tackles and an INT and 2nd game he has 8 tackles and forced the QB to give/pitch on option a number of times which helped us out. Kid is a stud. Not because I changed my defense, because I put him in a position within my scheme that he had the tools to succeed.
Sorry it took so long for me to chime in on this one, but I started on this site almost at the beginning when I was a 22 year old just entering the coaching profession and I have learned a ton from others, as well as learned a ton about myself just from posting what was in my head and re-reading it and saying, "WTF was I thinking?..."
I don't mind reposting the stuff that I have posted in the past, but when I am giving examples of how I do it so that the new coaches can take 1-2 things from my post and incorporate it into their system, it seems like they want me to run their program remotely... frustrating at times.
Hope we keep the site because I love it and many of you I have met in person whether while at a clinic or traveling. A few guys like FBdoc and casec actually took my wife and I out when we were in Miami on our honeymoon. Great guys on the site and it's great to meet like-minded people who love this game!
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 28, 2012 13:53:46 GMT -6
I think this site has rejuvenated my enthusiasm a bit by listening to new perspectives and revisiting old ones that I've gotten away from. After 30+ years of coaching I was almost ready to say I was done but after attending the USA youth football summit, being surrounded now with coaches all younger than me and perusing this site I feel "energized" a bit again. I try to be patient with new coaches on this site because I am surrounded by them in our program. Yes, I think critical thinking skills are lacking but maybe we can help that.
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Post by mattyg2787 on Aug 28, 2012 15:19:39 GMT -6
I play ncaa on PlayStation as well. I find it relaxing because I'm not correcting stuff, just mashing buttons. this is not football.
My first year coaching line I was watching the o line, then bringing them off after a drive and picking up mistakes (as well as obvious congrats where appropriate) even game day as a position specific coach is just another training in my eyes.
Like I said, I've spent a decent wad of my own cash buying Flexbone resources because its something that interests me. I'm reading/watching that, then asking specific questions on here (like why the hell I can't find any footage explaining ride and decide vs point method - anyone with a link to this should pm me)
Google and the internet in general is a double edged sword. Its great in the sense that I can talk to you guys from the deep deep south and find the info I need. Its bad because (and I know I'm guilty of it with some things) because with in 10-15 seconds on my phone, I can find an answer to something.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 17:13:04 GMT -6
throw out your Star Wars T shirts, tuck your shirt in, etc. Not no, but he!! no! ;D Duece
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Post by 33coach on Aug 28, 2012 17:27:24 GMT -6
i believe the solution is already been said:
we need to create a beginner board. Beginner Offense Beginner Defense Beginner Special Teams
which could be split into sub boards if you wanted.
BUT that also means we need active and disciplined moderators to control the forums and move any "beginnner" threads that are posted elsewhere.
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Post by carookie on Aug 28, 2012 17:39:39 GMT -6
Let me start by writing I get where the OP is coming from. I remember when I was doing all my teacher training courses in college professors would always tell me to "quit re-inventing the wheel". But me, being arrogant as I am, couldn't just accept someone elses lesson plan, exam, lessons, etc. I may steal most if not all of it but Im not just going to use your stuff because: 1) If I sit down and start from scratch I will better understand everything required and thus be able to better teach it. 2) I bet if I sit down and start from scratch I can come up with something better than you (or at least improve what you did (like I wrote, arrogance).
Still, a lot of coaches are taught to not "re-invent the wheel", to not critically examine all aspects of something; but rather just do what someone has come before you has done. Moreover, those outside of coaching are always told that coaching is all "X & O's" (thats why we must respect pro coaches because they are all X & O geniuses).
SOOOO....you get a young coach who assumes its all X & O, give him access to a board where there are tons of coaches who will share with him (so he won't have to re-invent anything) and BAM. Here we are.
Now to be fair, like so many here, I started on this board still wet behind the ears when it came to coaching. And what Ive learned from this site has been as much of a mentor to me as most any other coach Id worked for, with, met, or read about. So as long as when these young coaches ask for the best D or O to use, we gently point out the other more important aspects then I think we are okay
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Post by fantom on Aug 28, 2012 18:13:40 GMT -6
A couple research habits that helped me learn a lot and that still get mileage: 1-Sort by replies, read all the threads with lots of replies. I've read most've the big threads in the defense sections, for example. I do the same thing but the trouble is that you find out that it's a long thread because it's deteriorated into a cat fight. If it's in the S&C section I can almost guarantee it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2012 18:21:23 GMT -6
i believe the solution is already been said: I wasn't aware that there was an actual "problem" to be solved, coach. I don't see how any of that would address what Deuce is talking about here. He is complaining about what he deems "lazy" questions or posting. I maintain I believe it is more about questions/posts from members who are at a low level in their coaching progression and " don't know that they don't know." Right now, a member would read a post such as "what is the best offense" and choose to : 1) read other replies in this thread or click out of thread. 2) reply in said thread, or not reply. That seems easy enough. With your proposal, who determines if something is "beginner"? What is the criteria? What if the question posed is of "beginner" nature, but someone makes an "advanced" reply? Isn't there already a "youth" board, that should inherently lend itself to what could be assumed to be "beginner" items? Those are just the tip of the questions I could pose.... all because some posters are essentially doing the internet message board version of shaking fists and saying "get off my lawn" (this was the exact image I had reading some of the first posts--before fantom typed it) If the problem is with the posters ( they are lazy, uninformed etc. ) then why do we think making the board more complex would change that? If I wanted to be snarky (which is what one does when stuck waiting for the hurricane to knock out the power) I could suggest that the solution be that all new members go through a vetting process including: 1) 5 page application including an essay in which applicants must ask sample questions, then answer as they believe famous former coaches would. 2) power point presentation 3) DNA testing 4) decoder ring code for dbl wing forum access. Seriously, it is just like coaching freshman...you may change, but the kids stay the same. Here.. the older posters develop, but the less experienced guys are always going to ask the questions that the less experienced guys do. Lastly as someone mentioned earlier, if you see a guy who is consistently posting those types of questions...get him on the schedule.
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Post by fantom on Aug 28, 2012 18:43:42 GMT -6
The other day on The Dan Patrick show Dan was talking about the time he met Neil Armstrong. The guy who was going to introduce them was a joker and told Dan to make sure to ask Armstrong about walking on the moon. Said that he loved talking about it. Of course the question was met with a heavy sigh. For forty years everybody whose met Armstrong has asked the same questions.
It can feel the same way here. Nature of the business.
As for the Beginner's section, I'll piggy-back on 5085, as I often do, and ask what exactly is a beginner's question. Just a few days ago I asked on the Offensive board what a "constraint play" is. Offensive guys may have shaken their heads at such a "dumb" question but, although I'm no beginner, I'm primarily a defensive guy and didn't know what it was.
It's not hard to tell the difference between a sincere question, somebody who wants "something for nothing", and those who are really asking for somebody to validate their preconceived ideas (those are the ones that really annoy me). Answer the sincere ones and ignore the others.
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Post by brophy on Aug 28, 2012 18:54:09 GMT -6
board sub-sections make sense, but only serve to add a layer of unnecessary complexity and impede a flowing discussion. I see boards that are broken up with 3-5, 3-4, 4-3, 4-2, 5-3 sub boards in defense that GET NOWHERE because football isn't that neat and precise. Huey's was designed with that in mind because so much intertwines.
Just a thought, but if you're coaching / teaching all the time and are in the business of telling kids what to do without question ("you'd better not question why I told you to do this....") when do you develop a need to justify what you're doing? Also, is there so much of a dynamic where coaching is tied to your teaching position that there is a business hierarchy that is never challenged (the coordinator can fire the assistants or politically make their teaching gig miserable)?
My point is, if you don't have someone on staff that is challenging you and breaking you down and forcing you to justify it on the napkin....then why wouldn't you know better?
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Post by mattyg2787 on Aug 28, 2012 18:57:16 GMT -6
Fantom, I've asked plenty of questions that I'm sure guys have rolled their eyes at. But even your example wasn't "whats the best play/offense/defense" It was a very specific question and I think (tell me if I'm wrong) is whats frustrating guys more
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Post by jgordon1 on Aug 28, 2012 18:57:35 GMT -6
or you can just not answer the question...just sayin.... this is the way i use Huey..I wake up, take a crap, walk my dog, get a bowl of cereal (not necessarily in that order) and click on "new Topics"....usually I look at the question, if I'm interested I look..if i see a reply by someone I respect, I look...if not I just move on..if I have a question, i search Google...if I can't find it or don't like the answers..I ask
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Post by 33coach on Aug 28, 2012 19:42:59 GMT -6
or you can just not answer the question...just sayin.... this is the way i use Huey..I wake up, take a crap, walk my dog, get a bowl of cereal (not necessarily in that order) and click on "new Topics"....usually I look at the question, if I'm interested I look..if i see a reply by someone I respect, I look...if not I just move on..if I have a question, i search Google...if I can't find it or don't like the answers..I ask agree 100% Sent from my DROID Pro using proboards
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