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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2011 12:00:30 GMT -6
I've hijacked the thread on OLine summer stuff long enough.
I become more convinced every year that a lot of the stuff that we do in the offseason is a waste of time that's done primarily to make the coach feel that they're working harder than the other guys. I want the guys working at becoming better athletes- lifting, running. footwork drills, etc.
I think a lot of the other stuff is useless. A 7-on-7 is useful if it's done right. If you're worried about winning it's a waste. Lineman Challenges? If the kids think they're fun and want to show up, fine. I'm not about to make them go. I don't see what useful purpose they serve.
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Post by shamespiral on Jun 18, 2011 12:25:11 GMT -6
I agree with you that less is definitely more. The offseason is time for making them bigger, faster, and stronger.
But 7 on 7 has gotten bigger and continues to gain steam in this state. I fear that soon we will have a state championship in 7 on 7 like some other states near us. My point on the other thread is that sometimes you are forced to keep pace with others and their activities.
The primary reason being that you can't give your critics any extra ammo.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2011 12:32:44 GMT -6
I agree with you that less is definitely more. The offseason is time for making them bigger, faster, and stronger. But 7 on 7 has gotten bigger and continues to gain steam in this state. I fear that soon we will have a state championship in 7 on 7 like some other states near us. My point on the other thread is that sometimes you are forced to keep pace with others and their activities. The primary reason being that you can't give your critics any extra ammo. A 7-on-7 championship? We lose. See, that wasn't hard.
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Post by shamespiral on Jun 18, 2011 13:56:53 GMT -6
This is what I gather. You get to do what you want without many external factors putting pressure on your program. That's a nice situation to be in. Enjoy.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jun 18, 2011 14:18:37 GMT -6
We get a ton of kids with little previous football experience so we try and hit some fundamentals as well as the footwork, lifting, running.
As far as 7 on 7 it has become very useful for us in a scrimmage scenario even though we do participate in 1 or 2 tournaments. Part of that is our decision but also because our kids want to go compete. The scrimmage settings have been very helpful for us and luckily so far our kids look at them as being fun and competition moreso than practice or a mandatory event.
We have limited options in the summer but we figure that the more time our kids spend with us the better off they are (not necessarily in a football sense but more so because few of them have positive scenarios outside of football) so we relish the opportunity to have them involved. I do agree with you with the lineman challenge as it doesn't really parallel anything we do and the ones I have seen don't have a genuine carry over to the field.
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Post by playhard on Jun 18, 2011 14:23:09 GMT -6
I am reading a book now about the legendary Coach at St. Johns. He has a very interesting philosophy about eliminating useless stuff. He says people spend too much time focusing on stuff that doesn't pertain to the game like pregame warm-ups ,stretching etc. I guess as Coaches we have to decide what helps us win and make good choices that gives us the best bang for the buck!
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Post by shamespiral on Jun 18, 2011 15:00:30 GMT -6
This is turning into a good thread/subthread....
Anyone who knows me knows that I loathe 7 on 7.
After growing up in Texas and then coaching there for a good chunk of my career I feel it has altered the game/athlete experience in a negative way.
I currently coach in Louisiana and summer work/7 on 7 has begun to mirror and in some areas actually eclipse our Texas counter parts.
Is it "useless"? No. We get a lot of fundamental work in. We get a lot of our concepts in. Our entire pass offense & defensive coverage package is installed and ready to go.
Is it grinding for the athletes and create an extremely long year? Yes.
Do you have to do it? Politically there is no other way. You would be foolish to opt out. I like to think I have a fair amount of security. As much as any other guy in my league. If we didn't participate in the summer work I would have a lot of questions to answer. Those questions would come from the Principal, AD, and Boosters.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2011 15:00:36 GMT -6
This is what I gather. You get to do what you want without many external factors putting pressure on your program. That's a nice situation to be in. Enjoy. I enjoy our situation because all of us coaches are on the same page. We'll do some 7 on 7 scrimmages. We'll probably get into a tournament. Get the QBs some reps, look at some DBs and LBs. I do notice little correlation between 7 on 7 success and success in the season. In our state we can't make summer stuff mandatory. I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Post by blb on Jun 18, 2011 15:03:30 GMT -6
Good book about a great coach (John Gagliardi).
However - he is in a unique situation, largely because of his tenure and success at St. Johns - to his credit.
Try his methods at other D-III colleges much less HS and results would not be the same.
Same with Larry Kehres, great coach at Mount Union (OH).
Just trying to emulate his organizational model, Offensive and Defensive schemes will not guarantee success.
Most HS football programs are far different than the best D-III colleges such as St. Johns and Mt. Union - which are disparate in themselves.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2011 15:35:43 GMT -6
This is turning into a good thread/subthread.... Anyone who knows me knows that I loathe 7 on 7. After growing up in Texas and then coaching there for a good chunk of my career I feel it has altered the game/athlete experience in a negative way. I currently coach in Louisiana and summer work/7 on 7 has begun to mirror and in some areas actually eclipse our Texas counter parts. Is it "useless"? No. We get a lot of fundamental work in. We get a lot of our concepts in. Our entire pass offense & defensive coverage package is installed and ready to go. Is it grinding for the athletes and create an extremely long year? Yes. Do you have to do it? Politically there is no other way. You would be foolish to opt out. I like to think I have a fair amount of security. As much as any other guy in my league. If we didn't participate in the summer work I would have a lot of questions to answer. Those questions would come from the Principal, AD, and Boosters. Do you get paid extra?
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GregH
Freshmen Member
Posts: 60
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Post by GregH on Jun 18, 2011 15:42:01 GMT -6
I would agree that more is not always better, but "less is more" is a bit simplistic (though I suspect it's not meant to be taken too literally). Here is what I see. There is nothing that develops a QB like throwing to moving targets with pesky defenders trying to stop him. The only thing better would be if someone was rushing him at the same time, but that would be illegal. All the QB drills and instruction and film study in the world can't match this. There were years in which we were in two weekly passing leagues and went to two weekend tournaments. These days we are in one passing league and go to one tournament. The results seem to be about the same. Here "less is the same."
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Post by shamespiral on Jun 18, 2011 15:45:41 GMT -6
This is turning into a good thread/subthread.... Anyone who knows me knows that I loathe 7 on 7. After growing up in Texas and then coaching there for a good chunk of my career I feel it has altered the game/athlete experience in a negative way. I currently coach in Louisiana and summer work/7 on 7 has begun to mirror and in some areas actually eclipse our Texas counter parts. Is it "useless"? No. We get a lot of fundamental work in. We get a lot of our concepts in. Our entire pass offense & defensive coverage package is installed and ready to go. Is it grinding for the athletes and create an extremely long year? Yes. Do you have to do it? Politically there is no other way. You would be foolish to opt out. I like to think I have a fair amount of security. As much as any other guy in my league. If we didn't participate in the summer work I would have a lot of questions to answer. Those questions would come from the Principal, AD, and Boosters. Do you get paid extra? I don't because I'm on extended contract. The assistants that work those days do though.
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Post by fantom on Jun 18, 2011 15:55:08 GMT -6
I would agree that more is not always better, but "less is more" is a bit simplistic (though I suspect it's not meant to be taken too literally). Here is what I see. There is nothing that develops a QB like throwing to moving targets with pesky defenders trying to stop him. The only thing better would be if someone was rushing him at the same time, but that would be illegal. All the QB drills and instruction and film study in the world can't match this. There were years in which we were in two weekly passing leagues and went to two weekend tournaments. These days we are in one passing league and go to one tournament. The results seem to be about the same. Here "less is the same." I probably did take some license with the title. I do think that it's a long season and there's a case of diminishing returns when you demand too much in the offseason. If a lineman is missing weights I'm going to want to know why. If he wants to sleep in and miss flipping tires on some Saturday in July, I agree with him.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 18, 2011 20:52:47 GMT -6
Around here there isn't any kind of 7 on 7 tournament, coaches just get together and go through a few series on each side, sometimes get a third team involved, etc., but nothing like what is being described in the thread.
I'm not a huge fan of 7 on 7 but I do see it's purpose. I think the "unsanctioned" scrimmage format is probably a lot more constructive than the tournament format though. It sounds like in some parts of the country the tournaments are more or less mandatory to participate in, which I would agree probably gets to a point of diminshing returns pretty quickly. And what does a lineman challenge consits of? Is it more or less a strongman competition?
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Post by calkayne on Jun 19, 2011 2:56:01 GMT -6
How deep is your DC?
Are these "extra-cuirricular" situations not an ideal Testbed for your players that see little playing time during the regular season? Also when you playing mostly back-ups then you also have less stress as a Coach. How is that then negative?
I see these situations as negative when your extending the year for your starters, it wears the body down and exhausts them mentally as well as impacting the Coaching staff in a similar manner.
Or does the pressure to win these out of season events come from above the HC?
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Post by tango on Jun 19, 2011 7:22:27 GMT -6
If you are an option team and everything is play action or sprint out is 7 on 7 useful against other teams.
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Post by superpower on Jun 19, 2011 7:32:17 GMT -6
I've hijacked the thread on OLine summer stuff long enough. I become more convinced every year that a lot of the stuff that we do in the offseason is a waste of time that's done primarily to make the coach feel that they're working harder than the other guys. I want the guys working at becoming better athletes- lifting, running. footwork drills, etc. I think a lot of the other stuff is useless. A 7-on-7 is useful if it's done right. If you're worried about winning it's a waste. Lineman Challenges? If the kids think they're fun and want to show up, fine. I'm not about to make them go. I don't see what useful purpose they serve. I agree with you 100%, Coach. Fortunately we have had moderate success doing summer lifting and a one-week team camp as our only off-season work for the past 5 years. During that time our record is 40-15 and we have made the playoffs in the last 4 seasons, making the quarterfinals in 2008 and the semifinals in 2010. Several/Most of the teams that we play either in the regular season or in the playoffs go to padded team camps and do the 7 on 7, but in October and November those things don't seem to make any difference. I will say that we struggle in the first game each season, which may be attributed to not participating in all of the summer stuff. Interestingly, the legendary Smith Center program here in KS does not go to padded team camps, and I don't believe that they compete in 7 on 7 either.
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 7:38:22 GMT -6
If you are an option team and everything is play action or sprint out is 7 on 7 useful against other teams. Only once or twice. We get more done in teaching coverages and pass drops (Pass Defense) than Offensively. Running around in your underwear during the Summer is not Football.
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Post by utchuckd on Jun 19, 2011 7:56:57 GMT -6
The thing I like most about 7 on 7 is that it gives some of the kids a chance to play the game outside of the season. That's a big thing that separates football from baseball or basketball imo. When they're doing baseball or basketball in the off season, they're actually out playing games most of the time, not lifting and doing a lot of drills to prepare to play the game. Whereas when they're doing football in the offseason it's a bunch of lifting and saq and maybe indy technique stuff because we can't put on pads. It's a long tough grind to dedicate to play football, and 7 on 7 gives them a chance to actually play the game and have some competition outside the season. To some extent I see the lineman challenges the same way. Although they're not doing specific football stuff, it gives the big guys a chance to get out and compete with each other against somebody else. It's all competition and team building.
Plus, if they're not playing 7 on 7 a lot of our kids would be playing like 5-10 (or more?) games of basketball on the weekend so they're not saving any wear and tear on their bodies.
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2011 8:09:04 GMT -6
The thing I like most about 7 on 7 is that it gives some of the kids a chance to play the game outside of the season. That's a big thing that separates football from baseball or basketball imo. When they're doing baseball or basketball in the off season, they're actually out playing games most of the time, not lifting and doing a lot of drills to prepare to play the game. Whereas when they're doing football in the offseason it's a bunch of lifting and saq and maybe indy technique stuff because we can't put on pads. It's a long tough grind to dedicate to play football, and 7 on 7 gives them a chance to actually play the game and have some competition outside the season. To some extent I see the lineman challenges the same way. Although they're not doing specific football stuff, it gives the big guys a chance to get out and compete with each other against somebody else. It's all competition and team building. Plus, if they're not playing 7 on 7 a lot of our kids would be playing like 5-10 (or more?) games of basketball on the weekend so they're not saving any wear and tear on their bodies. I'm not worried about the physical wear and tear. The mental wear of the long season is what worries me. I think that kids should have some time away from the game. Coaches too.
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 8:36:01 GMT -6
Kids these days are getting pulled in a lot of different directions in Summer, especially the multi-sport athletes.
Instead of trying to keep up with the coaches of other sports who are guilty of overemphasis I choose to be the voice of reason and moderation. I don't let my ego get in the way and worry about "losing" kids to other sports.
Burnout, late-season staleness when we should be playing our best Football (hopefully contending for a championship and heading into playoffs), and overuse injuries are real concerns to me.
And I don't want to be mad at kids for missing something in June-July before we even start practice.
Those things plus I just think kids should have some time to be kids in the summer. Maybe I'm too old-school.
I know guys who lift three-four days a week, do "Speed Training" the other days, have couple 7-on-7s each week and on weekends, do couple home camps and go away to a college camp in the Summer, do Power Lifting competitions in the winter - and go 3-6 in the Fall.
In fact we've beaten a lot of programs like that.
We are going to do what I deem the bare minimum necessary to have a chance to be competitive week-to-week, year in and year out.
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Post by superpower on Jun 19, 2011 9:32:44 GMT -6
Kids these days are getting pulled in a lot of different directions in Summer, especially the multi-sport athletes. Instead of trying to keep up with the coaches of other sports who are guilty of overemphasis I choose to be the voice of reason and moderation. I don't let my ego get in the way and worry about "losing" kids to other sports. Burnout, late-season staleness when we should be playing our best Football (hopefully contending for a championship and heading into playoffs), and overuse injuries are real concerns to me. And I don't want to be mad at kids for missing something in June-July before we even start practice. Those things plus I just think kids should have some time to be kids in the summer. Maybe I'm too old-school. I know guys who lift three-four days a week, do "Speed Training" the other days, have couple 7-on-7s each week and on weekends, do couple home camps and go away to a college camp in the Summer, do Power Lifting competitions in the winter - and go 3-6 in the Fall. In fact we've beaten a lot of programs like that. We are going to do what I deem the bare minimum necessary to have a chance to be competitive week-to-week, year in and year out. Our American Legion baseball team is playing a 38 game schedule this summer. Our basketball team plays in a summer league an hour away. Our wrestlers go to a week long camp out of state. Nearly all of our kids work at least part time, some on farms, some roofing, some at Subway, etc. I don't put any expectations on them except for an hour a day 4 times a week in the weightroom. If we were going to a padded camp and competing in 7 on 7, at some point many of our kids would have to make a decision between football and another sport. That is a no win situation that I won't put them in. I find myself wondering why so many coaches feel that they NEED to do all of the extra stuff. How did we get here? Some say that it is better for the kids, giving them exposure which leads to scholarship opportunities. However, in my 5 years here we have had 10 players go on to play at the next level while not doing all of that other stuff. We have a senior who already has a DI offer from Wyoming. Is it really about the kids?
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Post by coachcb on Jun 19, 2011 9:45:10 GMT -6
I agree with those that have stated that these events aren't necessary for a good program. However, they are becoming a part of a successful career... I have seen a lot of administrators that are under the impression that the summer stuff IS what makes a program successful. A coach decides not to push that extra stuff, has a rough season and now the powers-that-be figure that hitting 7 on 7 tournaments all summer was the culprit.
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2011 9:58:00 GMT -6
I have seen a lot of administrators that are under the impression that the summer stuff IS what makes a program successful. I do think that the summer makes a program successful but it's the S&C part of it that does it.
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Post by veerman on Jun 19, 2011 10:31:00 GMT -6
I agree to some extent with what most are saying. BUT what if you are the struggling program that has to win early if you want to try and have a successful season. Most from what I'm hearing is that you are playing for championships. And don't want your kids burned out at end of the season. What if your goal is to just make the playoffs which means you have to win early and have a successful regular season? I have been a part of programs that did something everyday and had great success, I have been apart of programs that did not do as much but did some and have great success, and I know of programs that don't really ask of much till late July and have had success. What I guess I'm trying to say is that everywhere is different, some places those kids want to be there and do something, while others not so much. Just because your able to defeat a team that does a lot in summer does not mean they are doing too much, just means you don't have to do as much to be successful. I think one coach said it best, he is going to try and do the minimum to be successful, some schools require more minimum than others, and some coaches have different opinions on what success is. The more talented athletes you have the less you may have to do, just give that stud the ball and ride him till he bucks ya off.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 19, 2011 11:30:08 GMT -6
If you are an option team and everything is play action or sprint out is 7 on 7 useful against other teams. I don't see the value in having our QBs throwing into Cover 2 Man all summer long at 7 on 7 tournaments. Defenses don't play us like that all season long because we're so run heavy. Not even in 3rd and long in most cases. Plus, I don't want to convince my option QB that he's not horrible because he's throwing into coverage and having balls picked off constantly. Our WRs will be much more wide open in a game than they are running routes into Cover 2 Man at a 7 on 7 tournament. It's just silly. For these reasons, we don't put much stock in 7 on 7.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 19, 2011 11:36:08 GMT -6
Kids these days are getting pulled in a lot of different directions in Summer, especially the multi-sport athletes. Instead of trying to keep up with the coaches of other sports who are guilty of overemphasis I choose to be the voice of reason and moderation. I don't let my ego get in the way and worry about "losing" kids to other sports. Burnout, late-season staleness when we should be playing our best Football (hopefully contending for a championship and heading into playoffs), and overuse injuries are real concerns to me. And I don't want to be mad at kids for missing something in June-July before we even start practice. Those things plus I just think kids should have some time to be kids in the summer. Maybe I'm too old-school. I know guys who lift three-four days a week, do "Speed Training" the other days, have couple 7-on-7s each week and on weekends, do couple home camps and go away to a college camp in the Summer, do Power Lifting competitions in the winter - and go 3-6 in the Fall. In fact we've beaten a lot of programs like that. We are going to do what I deem the bare minimum necessary to have a chance to be competitive week-to-week, year in and year out. blb, Have you always maintained this philosophy regarding the summer commitment within your program?
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Post by veerman on Jun 19, 2011 11:38:40 GMT -6
As far as 7 on 7 goes I like it for the defense purpose. We get in a league of some local schools and almost all if not all run their defense not just two man. If you go to these college tourneys they have then yeah you will probably see that from every team.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 19, 2011 11:39:29 GMT -6
I agree to some extent with what most are saying. BUT what if you are the struggling program that has to win early if you want to try and have a successful season. Most from what I'm hearing is that you are playing for championships. And don't want your kids burned out at end of the season. What if your goal is to just make the playoffs which means you have to win early and have a successful regular season? I have been a part of programs that did something everyday and had great success, I have been apart of programs that did not do as much but did some and have great success, and I know of programs that don't really ask of much till late July and have had success. What I guess I'm trying to say is that everywhere is different, some places those kids want to be there and do something, while others not so much. Just because your able to defeat a team that does a lot in summer does not mean they are doing too much, just means you don't have to do as much to be successful. I think one coach said it best, he is going to try and do the minimum to be successful, some schools require more minimum than others, and some coaches have different opinions on what success is. The more talented athletes you have the less you may have to do, just give that stud the ball and ride him till he bucks ya off. You make great points here veerman.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 19, 2011 11:43:58 GMT -6
As far as 7 on 7 goes I like it for the defense purpose. We get in a league of some local schools and almost all if not all run their defense not just two man. If you go to these college tourneys they have then yeah you will probably see that from every team. I think what it boils down to is what is the motive of each of the programs that attend these 7 on 7 tournaments. Is it to win or install their systems? Most, I'm sure, is to win. Chuck Martin, former Grand Valley head coach and current Notre Dame DB coach, said it best "if you want to get better at 11 on 11, then you need to play 11 on 11."
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