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Post by veerman on Jun 19, 2011 12:02:28 GMT -6
I agrre that's why we don't go to tourneys, we get involved with coaches that I know, that way if we need to stop and walk through something we can.
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Post by veerman on Jun 19, 2011 12:09:14 GMT -6
We don't even keep score really, kids and coaches kinda know but not talked about with coaches nor posted anywhere. We go with teams about 30 min a piece. Like I said its not great but we get good pass defense work in, and 2 min offense for us in.
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2011 12:25:25 GMT -6
I agrre that's why we don't go to tourneys, we get involved with coaches that I know, that way if we need to stop and walk through something we can. Well, we're not really that far apart then. As I said I do see some value in these kinds of 7 on 7 especially if you're a new coach.
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 13:08:02 GMT -6
blb, Have you always maintained this philosophy regarding the summer commitment within your program? Yes. And have managed to have had some success doing so.
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2011 13:23:17 GMT -6
blb, Have you always maintained this philosophy regarding the summer commitment within your program? Yes. And have managed to have had some success doing so. We're around the same age. I wonder if these busy offseasons will have some effect on coaches' longevity.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2011 13:28:08 GMT -6
I have seen a lot of administrators that are under the impression that the summer stuff IS what makes a program successful. I do think that the summer makes a program successful but it's the S&C part of it that does it. But what if my opponents do S&C as well? Doesn't that just keep me hanging around. I understand both sides being discussed here. Quite frankly, the genie is out of the bottle. This is the H.S version of the "arms race" that colleges are going through. H.S don't have the funding, so we can't compete with million dollar academic centers, multiple indoor and outdoor practice facilities, 20,000 + square foot weightrooms, and stadium upgrades. So we just amp up the activities. Gone are the days of "off-season". I completely sympathize with shamespiral. Here in Louisiana, West Monroe turned football into basically a 365 day sport about 18-20 years ago, with a full time s&c coach, 8 position coaches, 2 coordinators, and a HC who I believe serves as AD. This has led to 7 state titles and 6 runner up trophies since 1993. Keep in mind, that the kids "can't" be the reason you lose. , If your kids are not bigger, stronger, faster than the other guys..must be YOUR fault. Can't be weaker DNA from the parents. So if your kids aren't doing better and beating the other kids, AND you aren't keeping up with proverbial jonses..... I can appreciate the sentiments to be hands off, and do "the bare minimum to compete". Just to be clear, I think society has placed WAY to much importance on all of the WRONG elements/components of H.S athletics. Sadly some programs have decided that your bare minimum is a whole heck of a lot.
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 13:40:38 GMT -6
[We're around the same age. I wonder if these busy offseasons will have some effect on coaches' longevity. fantom, How many grey hairs-bald heads do you see week-to-week?
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 14:06:40 GMT -6
d5085, I can appreciate-empathize with what you're saying.
It has to come down to what your personal philosophy and reasons for coaching HS Football as well as program goals-objectives are.
For example, in our state:
There have been state playoffs since 1975.
Out of approximately 620 11-man playing schools, only a little over 100 have won a state championship (8 champions a year since 1990).
About 30 per cent of state titles have been won by around a dozen schools.
Over 20 per cent of schools have never made playoffs, never won a playoff game, or only won one post-season game.
Does that mean all those schools are poorly coached? Need to do more in the off-season? Would it really make a difference?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2011 14:12:32 GMT -6
d5085, I can appreciate-empathize with what you're saying. It has to come down to what your personal philosophy and reasons for coaching HS Football as well as program goals-objectives are. For example, in our state: There have been state playoffs since 1975. Out of approximately 620 11-man playing schools, only a little over 100 have won a state championship (8 champions a year since 1990). About 30 per cent of state titles have been won by around a dozen schools. Over 20 per cent of schools have either never made playoffs or never won a playoff game. Many others have only won one post-season game. Does that mean all those schools are poorly coached? Need to do more in the off-season? Would it really make a difference? The problem is...again sadly... that in many cases is what OTHERS want/think the outcome "SHOULD" be.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 19, 2011 14:15:07 GMT -6
blb, Have you always maintained this philosophy regarding the summer commitment within your program? Yes. And have managed to have had some success doing so. So what exactly did your program's summer commitment entail again? We get the dead week in Michigan so I know you have that and pre-season down time the week before the season starts where there are to be no football-related activities. So other than those weeks, what are the summer expectations of the program?
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 14:20:32 GMT -6
As an educator-coach, You must do what YOU think is right and best for the kids in your charge.
If you reach the point where you feel outside expectations are unreasonable and you can't meet them under the conditions that exist - move on.
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Post by fantom on Jun 19, 2011 14:23:27 GMT -6
Yes. And have managed to have had some success doing so. So what exactly did your program's summer commitment entail again? We get the dead week in Michigan so I know you have that and pre-season down time the week before the season starts where there are to be no football-related activities. So other than those weeks, what are the summer expectations of the program? I can't answer for BLB but here's what we do: We had camp during the weeks before and after Memorial Day then turned them loose since they don't let us lift during exams. They'll start working out again tomorrow (Mon. June 20) M-T-Th 6-8 PM. That'll be lifting and running. A lot of times the QBs and receivers will do some throwing on their own. As of today I don't know if we're going to do a 7 on 7 scrimmage (not a tourney).
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Post by blb on Jun 19, 2011 14:26:50 GMT -6
Yes. And have managed to have had some success doing so. So what exactly did your program's summer commitment entail again? We get the dead week in Michigan so I know you have that and pre-season down time the week before the season starts where there are to be no football-related activities. So other than those weeks, what are the summer expectations of the program? coach, have posted them on here somewhere before and am too busy with family stuff (not just "Fathers' Day") to do it again right now. Don't know what you mean by "pre-season down time the week before the season starts." We don't use a ball, helmets, anything else "football-related" except running, lifting, meetings, testing, equipment issue - but we don't take that week off.
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Post by fballcoachg on Jun 19, 2011 17:40:55 GMT -6
blb or other like minded/experienced coaches,
With all of the sports and activities pulling these kids for more and more have you found that your philosophy on offseason activities has benefited, hurt, or not really affected you in the amount of kids being commited to the program? I could see them appreciating the approach especially in contrast to some things more overbearing coaches impose.
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2011 18:14:06 GMT -6
I do think that the summer makes a program successful but it's the S&C part of it that does it. But what if my opponents do S&C as well? Doesn't that just keep me hanging around. But what if the opponent's S&C program sucks? LOTS of schools have summer weight programs. Few of them do it "right".
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 19, 2011 19:54:35 GMT -6
I'm not worried about the physical wear and tear. The mental wear of the long season is what worries me. I think that kids should have some time away from the game. Coaches too. a player has 4 years of high school football. at most, 3 off-seasons will be in preparation for varsity competition. is one day a week in the month of June that big of a commitment for a young man that has 3 years of his life to play a great game and 60 more years to live without it? burn out is when we make it not fun for the kid. when they see no return on the investment and no point or purpose for a commitment. THAT is where coaches make their hay ... keeping it worthwhile for the players while maximizing their limited amount of time with this great game. 7 days in a week. 18 waking hours in a day. less than 2 hours a day, up to 4 days a week devoted to either working out (which, btw, makes for a healthy lifestyle anyway) and/or participating in some football-related activity in the summer. is that too much? really? if it is the coaches that are concerned about the long year ... which is a legit concern .... then staff should delegate, divide up duties & days so that no one person bears the entire weight.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 19, 2011 20:25:08 GMT -6
So what exactly did your program's summer commitment entail again? We get the dead week in Michigan so I know you have that and pre-season down time the week before the season starts where there are to be no football-related activities. So other than those weeks, what are the summer expectations of the program? coach, have posted them on here somewhere before and am too busy with family stuff (not just "Fathers' Day") to do it again right now. Don't know what you mean by "pre-season down time the week before the season starts." We don't use a ball, helmets, anything else "football-related" except running, lifting, meetings, testing, equipment issue - but we don't take that week off. Yeah sorry Coach. I understand completely. I know you've posted your summer schedule on here before. But I couldn't remember where and the good old search function is not even worth trying. By football-related activities I meant drills, 7 on 7, etc. NOT strength and conditioning activities. Obviously strength and conditioning activities are still allowed during preseason down time.
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Post by coachweav88 on Jun 19, 2011 21:07:40 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2011 21:28:01 GMT -6
But what if my opponents do S&C as well? Doesn't that just keep me hanging around. But what if the opponent's S&C program sucks? LOTS of schools have summer weight programs. Few of them do it "right". Ok--so you now determine what you are doing in the summer based on if you know your opponents have a sucky summer weights/running program? It is a complex situation. Like I said, I believe the genie is out of the bottle. If you are winning...eh, nobody really cares. But if the school next door is doing all the extra stuff--and having more success than you are-- well, Just like shamespiral said, the questions will come. Heck, if I were an AD or principal, I would probably be asking why you weren't doing them (well, not 7-7 tournmaments--because we know they S U C K). But if you were winning 6 games a year, and comparable schools that were doing the whole football 365 thing were winning 9-10 games a year, it is only natural to ask that question isn't it?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 19, 2011 21:31:44 GMT -6
Cute picture. However, there is another side to that in this discussion. What if we are talking about a skilled staff..spending that extra time/effort.. with skilled players...
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Post by 19delta on Jun 19, 2011 22:34:54 GMT -6
But what if the opponent's S&C program sucks? LOTS of schools have summer weight programs. Few of them do it "right". Ok--so you now determine what you are doing in the summer based on if you know your opponents have a sucky summer weights/running program? It is a complex situation. Like I said, I believe the genie is out of the bottle. If you are winning...eh, nobody really cares. But if the school next door is doing all the extra stuff--and having more success than you are-- well, Just like shamespiral said, the questions will come. Heck, if I were an AD or principal, I would probably be asking why you weren't doing them (well, not 7-7 tournmaments--because we know they S U C K). But if you were winning 6 games a year, and comparable schools that were doing the whole football 365 thing were winning 9-10 games a year, it is only natural to ask that question isn't it? Point is, lots of coaches have a "summer program"...weights, 7 on 7, practices, camps...that really are not effective and, in many cases, are counterproductive. Guy I know uses all of his summer contact days (we get 21 in my state). He runs two camps, they have weekly practices (about 3 hours in length) and they lift three days a week. They will go to 3-4 7 on 7s and 2-3 lineman challenges. The result? The team sucks...they win maybe 2-3 games a year. IMO, the big reason is because the weight program blows wet dog, the summer practices are poorly attended by assistant coaches and not planned out in advance, and the stuff they work on in the summer is seldom the stuff they do once the season begins. (and that is just scratching the surface of the problems with this program) But...after yet another 2-7 season, this guy will be talking about how hard they work in the summer and how he gets the most out of his players because of it... It's not necessarily HOW much you do with your kids...it's what you do with the kids when you have them that counts.
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Post by bleefb on Jun 19, 2011 22:57:10 GMT -6
We just started Summer on June 13 and will finish on July 13th heading into the dead period. We go three nights a week, install our pass offense and defense, lift and condition. We've never gone to 7 on 7 tournaments. Sometimes we'll do a home and home with a neighboring school, but that's it. We've never gone to contact camps. This has been routine for 30 years at two different schools, one large, and one small. I've never felt like "Oh, if we had just gone to more 7 on 7 we would have won the League." We've had a lot of success mixed with an occasional down year, but our summer hasn't varied much. Usually, the caliber of our athletes have had a much greater impact on our success rate. I agree that there is an "Arms Race" mentality that goes with this stuff. We have a similar "race" with size of coaching staffs. There is a team in our area that has 19 Varsity coaches and are very successful. They are also a wealthy suburban school with a large population, excellent facilities, and LOTS of Booster Club money. Which things do you think contribute the most? Fortunately, things may be changing. The team that won the Division One Championship in our area this year has 5 Varsity Coaches, don't have Spring practice, and don't even use headsets! It kind of blows up the mythology of all the extras. (This is a public school, not DeLaSalle) I'm hoping this trend catches on. I can't find 19 coaches!
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Post by coachbuck on Jun 20, 2011 3:10:39 GMT -6
The problem I see in H.S. is that a coach that coaches Football, baseball, or basketball has no off season. They expect the kid to practice the inseason sport and then participate in there practices. Its overkill. These are kids and we will always take it way more seriously than the kid will. We are practicing all summer long, no break. During our dead period you can still lift weights so we do. Im glad for it because I coach freshman and the weightlifting is gonna help alot but I still think its overkill.
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Post by blb on Jun 20, 2011 5:32:43 GMT -6
So what exactly did your program's summer commitment entail again? We get the dead week in Michigan so I know you have that and pre-season down time the week before the season starts where there are to be no football-related activities. So other than those weeks, what are the summer expectations of the program? coachdavis, in addition to our Summer Conditioning Workouts, we have two 7-on-7 sessions scheduled this month and our three-day camp last week in July. As far as "football-related activities," that's it until Two-a-days. Last year we did 4-5 7-on-7s but that was too many, reached point of diminishing returns after about three. We used to go to an out-of-town camp but with Pay to Play et al and the hassle involved, we stopped doing that about five years ago. As far as "requirements," as you know in our state we cannot make anything out of season mandatory. We simply tell kids that how they do at camp and perform on our Physical Fitness Test will in large part determine whether they start practice on 1st or 2nd string. We do give special T-shirt to any kid who attends all 18 Conditioning Workouts.
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Post by indian1 on Jun 20, 2011 7:20:16 GMT -6
Love this thread. I think the key is figuring out how to do your off season stuff really well. By that I mean doing what you gotta do, not wasting anyone's time, making sure everything has a purpose and is well executed.
This argument is similar to discussions I've heard about hours put in during a week. Some guys put in a ton of hours but are not very productive. The same thing happens with summer stuff. It might make you look better if you can show everyone how many activities you have in the summer, but that doesn't always mean its all going to help you or even be necessary.
Blb mentioned the longevity of coaches being related to how much extra stuff they do and I think he's right on the nuts. I want to coach for a long time so I'm always working to strike a good balance between coaching and family. I really look up to the guys who have done this for a long time and still manage to have success on the field and have solid family lives. I know a lot of those guys and try to emulate them.
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Post by fantom on Jun 20, 2011 8:42:44 GMT -6
blb or other like minded/experienced coaches, With all of the sports and activities pulling these kids for more and more have you found that your philosophy on offseason activities has benefited, hurt, or not really affected you in the amount of kids being commited to the program? I could see them appreciating the approach especially in contrast to some things more overbearing coaches impose. I wish I could say that I saw some evidence of that but I can't. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that this is something to consider IF you're not having success. Obviously, if you're doing all of the "Zero Hour" 6 AM workouts, 7 on 7 league and tournaments, and doing full practices all summer and having success keep doing it. If it's not working so well maybe it wouldn't hurt to pull back a little.
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Post by tango on Jun 20, 2011 8:51:23 GMT -6
We are a flexbone team and do not compete in 7 on 7. We do a lot of 7 on 7 during July against ourselves. We would get killed playing cover 3 and play action all day. We play a team that does really well in 7 on 7. We did not attempt a pass during the game and won 42-6. I do not think 7 on 7 is good or bad, just a tool to use.
I think you must do drill work and kill them in the weight room to be successful. The program must fit your guys and not the guy over across the river.
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Post by davishfc on Jun 20, 2011 11:08:38 GMT -6
So what exactly did your program's summer commitment entail again? We get the dead week in Michigan so I know you have that and pre-season down time the week before the season starts where there are to be no football-related activities. So other than those weeks, what are the summer expectations of the program? coachdavis, in addition to our Summer Conditioning Workouts, we have two 7-on-7 sessions scheduled this month and our three-day camp last week in July. As far as "football-related activities," that's it until Two-a-days. Last year we did 4-5 7-on-7s but that was too many, reached point of diminishing returns after about three. We used to go to an out-of-town camp but with Pay to Play et al and the hassle involved, we stopped doing that about five years ago. As far as "requirements," as you know in our state we cannot make anything out of season mandatory. We simply tell kids that how they do at camp and perform on our Physical Fitness Test will in large part determine whether they start practice on 1st or 2nd string. We do give special T-shirt to any kid who attends all 18 Conditioning Workouts. Do you do anything to prepare your kids for those 7 on 7s before you go? Like an hour or two the week of? Or is the first 7 on 7 kind of the preparation for the second? Do you emphasize more of your playaction game at the 7 on 7s or is there equal emphasis on your playaction and quick game packages? Like you, we do a camp at the end of July just before pre-season down time but ours is two rather than three days. That camp has really helped from an installation perspective so that by the time practice rolls around we can work more diligently on technique. I understand, in Michigan, we cannot make summer activities "mandatory" for them to attend. We don't use the word "requirement" either. We are simply offering 18 opportunities for improvement to our players throughout the summer. We believe in our players so much that we anticipate most will take advantage of those opportunities. We feel like we have done everything to communicate the importance of and motivate our players to attend. But I know what you mean about language. Communicating the value and importance of the sessions rather than demanding attendance from a position of authority is a much more legal and effective strategy. I remember in an earlier post you mentioned something like you try to avoid creating situations over the summer that would make you mad at the players before practice even started. So you limit the time invested in those opportunities for improvement with the belief that player attendance will be greater. I can sympathize with this feeling. I force myself to wipe the slate clean at the start of the season. The players have chosen to take advantage of a certain number of those opportunities and you can't help that at this point. But the season is here, it's exciting and you have some kids who have really prepared for what lies ahead. You have some kids that you gave t-shirts to for making all of the sessions, some kids that thought they didn't need that extra work or those who thought being a kid was more important than football so you never saw them, and everything in between. During the season, the best players will play and sometimes that's real difficult because the best players may be the ones that didn't invest much over the summer. Bottom line, they didn't care as much. That's demoralizing for a kid that was trying to do everything that he could to get better. The best players play BUT if the skill level is a push then we will play the kids who we owe something to. Those being the ones who took advantage of the opportunities for improvement we offered as a coaching staff. They truly epitomize what our program is about.
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Post by wingtol on Jun 20, 2011 11:21:22 GMT -6
Quality > Quantity any day in my book.
We are able to basically do whatever in the summer so we go 3 days a week 2 hours with the weight room open before those workouts. We are also allowed to wear helmets and shoulder pads now for workouts so we get a lot done the month of July before the official first day. Like Huey said if a kid can't give 6 hours a week for a sport most of them will never play again after HS then maybe they are playing the wrong sport. I myself worry about the mental fatigue more than the physical fatigue in the summer, we are talking about 15-16-17-18 year old kids here not 15 year vets they recover pretty quick physical. Keeping them mentally sharp is the key.
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Post by blb on Jun 20, 2011 11:23:49 GMT -6
Do you do anything to prepare your kids for those 7 on 7s before you go? Like an hour or two the week of? Or is the first 7 on 7 kind of the preparation for the second? Do you emphasize more of your playaction game at the 7 on 7s or is there equal emphasis on your playaction and quick game packages? Nope, just go out about half hour early and after quick warm-up, throw routes vs. air and walk-thru review coverages-pass drops vs. formations briefly. Then we coach 'em up during the 7-on-7, because frankly teaching-review is only reason we do them, not competition. I do not believe in doing PAP or even 3-step DBP in 7-on-7. So we just do our ROP and DBP, make sure all the kids get equal reps.
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