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Post by coachcb on Dec 4, 2008 18:13:35 GMT -6
How many high school running backs say "I want to go where I will play 25% of the snaps and carry the ball twice a year as a full-time fullback"? I would think PJ's offense would be attractive to running backs for the same reason that Leach's offense would be attractive to receivers: you'll get your touches, the opportunity to make plays, and we use a lot of you so you can get on the field early (don't have to wait until Junior/Senior year to be "the guy"). My sentiments exactly; we see a lot of big, thick, FB type kids who want to get carries in college, but end up playing LB when they realize that they're nothing more than a glorified guard at bthe next level. I coached in a program that produced a 6'1'', 210 pound FB that broke lots of records. Fantastic, hard nosed runner with good balanced, quickness and speed. He ended up playing at the D1AA level where he played TB. He slimmed down in hopes that he'd develop some speed so he could play TB in their single-back zone scheme. He lost weight, but didn't really pick up the kind of speed he needed to play TB in that scheme. Had he played for a flexbone/veer team, he would have been a fantastic FB. He could have put on another 10-20 pounds of muscle and gotten stronger without losing speed. His work ethic in the weight room, coupled with his nasty running style would've carried him a long way.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 5, 2008 10:20:02 GMT -6
How many high school running backs say "I want to go where I will play 25% of the snaps and carry the ball twice a year as a full-time fullback"? I would think PJ's offense would be attractive to running backs for the same reason that Leach's offense would be attractive to receivers: you'll get your touches, the opportunity to make plays, and we use a lot of you so you can get on the field early (don't have to wait until Junior/Senior year to be "the guy"). Coached at two option/run oriented teams at 1AA level. The problem we had was we never could get that great qb to get us to the next level. Got slammed during recruiting at every turn... we had plenty of athletes... we moved the extra running backs to wr. you know what.. that's what they were... rb's playing reciever. Our defenses were always very good.. we held the ball ..they were tough sob's.. IMO because we were a hard nosed bunch.. so.. to make a long story longer.. we get fired. the next coach.. gets a JC qb and a wr from FL. never run option all year.. well maybe a little speed.. they win the national championship with really only bringing in two more kids.. my hats off to them for doing what was necessary... Not saying that PJ can't do it in the ACC but National Chamionship still up in the air for me
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Post by coachcb on Dec 5, 2008 10:32:50 GMT -6
I think that we are all looking at this the wrong way, assuming that PJ is going to have a difficult time picking up a QB.
PJ needs an athletic, coachable kid at the QB position. He doesn't need a kid with a strong arm, or even a kid that has experience at QB. When you look at their package, he could run the system just as well by plugging in WR at the QB spot during spring ball, coaching them up and turning them loose.
The kids that he's working with this year haven't run the option before, they're all new to it. But, they're still putting up points and winning football games.
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Post by saintrad on Dec 5, 2008 10:52:12 GMT -6
Not saying that PJ can't do it in the ACC but National Chamionship still up in the air for me obviously you missed the point to this thread. Everyone has said that the option was 'out of date' and wouldn't be successful in in a big program. Ah, aren't all these 'state of the art' spread teams just running option, didn't Oklahoma and Texas win championships in multiple decades running the option. to only qualify a coach's success by national championships is lame and uneducated.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 5, 2008 10:58:25 GMT -6
Two of GT's three losses this year came by a combined 10 points.
That means that they were 10 points away from being a National Title contender.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 5, 2008 11:23:41 GMT -6
Not saying that PJ can't do it in the ACC but National Chamionship still up in the air for me obviously you missed the point to this thread. Everyone has said that the option was 'out of date' and wouldn't be successful in in a big program. Ah, aren't all these 'state of the art' spread teams just running option, didn't Oklahoma and Texas win championships in multiple decades running the option. to only qualify a coach's success by national championships is lame and uneducated. Maybe I missed the point of the thread.. no one loves option football more than me and I watch GT whenever I can.. but I would say there are many coaches (probably including PJ)out there that would not be satisified with anything less than a national championship. I would hardly call Meyer and Saban lame and uneducated. My point (and I didn't make this clear) is I think it would be very difficult to win a national championship being one dimensional in any sense
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cls
Junior Member
Posts: 295
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Post by cls on Dec 5, 2008 11:37:30 GMT -6
I heard Paul Johnson say once, and it made alot of sense to me, that if we threw for 300yrds and had a RB rush for a 120yrds people would say we where balanced. However, we are called one dimensional when we have a 350yrd rushing game and a 110yrd pass game. Maybe I'm dumb but what is the difference?
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Post by windigo on Dec 5, 2008 13:26:37 GMT -6
So we've talked about how hard it is to stop this offense, how do you guys stop it, or how would you approach stopping it? 1. Play a 30 front. At the core of the offense is the concept of using the option to take your d-line out of the game. To counter this don’t give them a d-line to option. Some here say that its hard for teams to defend to option because they dont see it that much. To the same effect its also hard for option teams to play againts a 30 front and make their option reads because they dont see it that much. 2. Always force the pitch but force it quick. Don't slow play it like Georgia did. Force the pitch while the QB is still on the LOS and the WB hasn't turned up field yet. If you force it when the WB has a full head of steam and has had plenty of time to see the field and pick his lane then you are in for a world of hurt. Imagine if you would an I formation offense where the running back is allowed to start running towards the LOS before the ball is ever snapped and is then given 2-3 seconds to survey the field before he even gets the hand off. That’s an option offense if you try to slow play the pitch. 3. Teach your CBs how to get off blocks and tackle. Good CBs who can stop the run shut the triple option down.
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Post by tog on Dec 5, 2008 13:33:52 GMT -6
So we've talked about how hard it is to stop this offense, how do you guys stop it, or how would you approach stopping it? 2. Always force the pitch but force it quick. Don't slow play it like Georgia did. Force the pitch while the QB is still on the LOS and the WB hasn't turned up field yet. If you force it when the WB has a full head of steam and has had plenty of time to see the field and pick his lane then you are in for a world of hurt. this is the key
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Post by gunrun on Dec 5, 2008 13:38:37 GMT -6
So we've talked about how hard it is to stop this offense, how do you guys stop it, or how would you approach stopping it? 1. Play a 30 front. At the core of the offense is the concept of using the option to take your d-line out of the game. To counter this don’t give them a d-line to option. Some here say that its hard for teams to defend to option because they dont see it that much. To the same effect its also hard for option teams to play againts a 30 front and make their option reads because they dont see it that much. 2. Always force the pitch but force it quick. Don't slow play it like Georgia did. Force the pitch while the QB is still on the LOS and the WB hasn't turned up field yet. If you force it when the WB has a full head of steam and has had plenty of time to see the field and pick his lane then you are in for a world of hurt. Imagine if you would an I formation offense where the running back is allowed to start running towards the LOS before the ball is ever snapped and is then given 2-3 seconds to survey the field before he even gets the hand off. That’s an option offense if you try to slow play the pitch. 3. Teach your CBs how to get off blocks and tackle. Good CBs who can stop the run shut the triple option down. It's my understanding that slow-playing the Option is needed to give your Force player in the secondary time to get to the pitch man. I definitely agree that you need secondary players who can get off blocks and are sure tacklers.
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Post by windigo on Dec 5, 2008 13:58:39 GMT -6
Slow playing the dive is great. And serves exactly that purpose but slow playing the pitch man is a huge mistake. Did you really see the slow playing of the pitch slow up the GT offense at all? The QB is just giong to press the pitch man who will eventually have to comit to him then pitch it when the WB has a full head of steam. It doesn't slow the offense down one iota. You want that WB getting the pitch as he is still moving horizontally to the LOS.
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Post by tog on Dec 5, 2008 14:05:17 GMT -6
Slow playing the dive is great. And serves exactly the purpose but slow playing the pitch man is a huge mistake. Did you really see the slow playing of the pitch slow up the GT offense at all? The QB is just giong to press the pitch man who will eventually have to comit to him then pitch it when the WB has a full head of steam. It doesn't slow the offense down one iota. You want that WB getting the pitch as he is still moving horizontally to the LOS. you also want to force bad pitches by putting the pressure on the qb you also want to knock the qb silly as many times as possible
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Post by coachcb on Dec 5, 2008 14:32:20 GMT -6
Having coached veer for a long time, I can tell you, we LOVED it when teams slow played us. If you're going to slow play the dive, we're going to bang it in there, down after down. Our splits between our Gs and Ts and Ts and TEs could be up to 3-4 feet; if you're slow playing with the dive read, youre going to have a tough enough time getting there when playing it fast.
If you're slow playing the QB, he's going to turn it up and gash you for a couple yards. Before you know it; the pitch defender is going to bite and the pitchback is going to get the ball.
And this isn't me playing "last guy with the chalk"; our option people spend all year learning to read and react, slow playing them is just making it easier.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 5, 2008 15:18:56 GMT -6
Something to add;
The faster you make the QB make the reads the better. The quicker he has to think, the faster the ball is out of his hands. The faster it's out of his hands, the more likely a fumble becomes.
Another good point; don't give a veer team the dive. The blocking schemes are set up to seal off the defense to the inside of the dive. The dive back has a straight north-south path and a full head of steam.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 5, 2008 15:30:25 GMT -6
I am of the mix it up variety in regards to slow play. Do anything only one way to a well coached team and they will burn you. The other thing I learned from this board is that we only have to fool a 17 yr old kid not a 40 yr old man
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Post by windigo on Dec 5, 2008 15:34:27 GMT -6
If you're slow playing the QB, he's going to turn it up and gash you for a couple yards. Before you know it; the pitch defender is going to bite and the pitchback is going to get the ball. Boy what does that sound so familiar? Its almost like I just saw that happen quite recently.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 5, 2008 15:58:26 GMT -6
I am of the mix it up variety in regards to slow play. Do anything only one way to a well coached team and they will burn you. The other thing I learned from this board is that we only have to fool a 17 yr old kid not a 40 yr old man The defenses that hurt us the most were those that crashed the mesh with the dive read and forced the QB to pull and pitch, right at the mesh point. The pitch back is still trying to get into his pitch relationship; he has a harder time turning his hips upfield after the pitch. Our response to this type of play is to extend the splits a little more so that the dive read can't just charge the mesh without giving up the dive.
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Post by bigdog2003 on Dec 5, 2008 16:24:52 GMT -6
I heard Paul Johnson say once, and it made alot of sense to me, that if we threw for 300yrds and had a RB rush for a 120yrds people would say we where balanced. However, we are called one dimensional when we have a 350yrd rushing game and a 110yrd pass game. Maybe I'm dumb but what is the difference? Because many people this days think that to win you have to pass for 300 yards a game. There are so many "experts" that don't understand how the game really works. Why risk the int when you can run and run and run. Running breaks the defenses wills. I have watched, played, and coached in the wing-t for 20 of my 23 years on this planet, and love the running game. I believe that more and more teams will go back to the run since teams are loading up to defend the pass these days. Smaller LB's, DL's would be up against the wall if they played a running team like wing-t, double wing, single wing, or stragiht t. Look at what Florida is doing with what Meyer does not hide as single wing stuff. PJ will have success in the ACC, teams can't prepare for the perfect option after seeing pass all year. Look at what they did this year, the first year in the system. Give him another spring and they will when the ACC. Hard nosed defense and running the ball, sounds like football again. People are going to doubt things they don't understand. The option can't work in the ACC, lets see what these people say in 2 or 3 years when PJ is holding the National Championship trophy over his head.
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Post by midlineqb on Dec 5, 2008 17:29:43 GMT -6
Oh, definitely TOG..i am not disagreeing that the kid isnt good for GT... My point is going to GT to be a flexbone fullback might not be good for a kids NFL aspirations. Not saying that SHOULD be the kids thought process.. but it is . Wasn't Adrian Peterson of Georgia Southern a few years back a FB for them and is now playing in the NFL? I'm not talking about Adrian Peterson from Oklahoma that is with the Vikings either.
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Post by Yash on Dec 5, 2008 23:15:32 GMT -6
Not to be a jerk, but if you read the whole thread the adrian peterson topic has been covered, I know its a long thread.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 6, 2008 0:09:12 GMT -6
Like I said, make him spit the seed. And make him do it quick.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 6, 2008 0:14:51 GMT -6
Bigdog stated: "Why risk the int when you can run and run and run."
Sometimes running can be stymied and can be precarious in the option game if the ball is put on the ground due to incorrect reads, poor mesh points and injuries to an otherwise exposed quarterback. So, every scheme has its drawbacks.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 6, 2008 0:27:59 GMT -6
In response to the 30 front as a way to stop the option. First of all, what option are we speaking of? Secondy, OV is a very good scheme to run against a 30 front. Here is a little scheme that has worked well for me. ---------------------F---------------------- ----c---------------------------------------c ----------------S----M----W ------------D--E-----N----T---D ----X----------T--G-C-G--T-----------------Z --------------3------Q------4-
---------------------F Outside veer to the DTackle and Will (the offense's Right) by sealing the DT and the Will with the OT and the 4back you pin the defense inside and now it becomes 3 on 1 assuming you do not count the FS who is running the alley.
I ran this out of a one back 2X2 pistol formation and it worked like a charm.
---------------------F---------------------- ----c---------------------------------------c ----------------S----M----W ------------D--E-----N----T---D ----X----------T--G-C-G--T------Y---------- ----------H----------------------------------Z ---------------------Q
---------------------F
Instead of a slot (wing) blocking the Will, now the Y blocks the Will. If the Dog is not jamming the Y then Seam or Jump pass seem to be pretty effective.
Note: There is an option motion in each (3 back or H). One more point, if getting a six tech out of the DE and The DT, then it is time for midline.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 6, 2008 9:19:47 GMT -6
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Post by bigdog2003 on Dec 6, 2008 10:28:03 GMT -6
Bigdog stated: "Why risk the int when you can run and run and run." Sometimes running can be stymied and can be precarious in the option game if the ball is put on the ground due to incorrect reads, poor mesh points and injuries to an otherwise exposed quarterback. So, every scheme has its drawbacks. It does, but the option PJ runs is, in my opinion easier for qb than say Texas techs offense. They can always call dives or rocket, or double options. Tech throws the ball so much that only practice can help them get the timing down to where it needs to be. Passing can be stopped just as easily as running, so that is no arguement. I think PJ will get more balanced in his offense the more time he has.
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Post by Yash on Dec 6, 2008 12:21:00 GMT -6
Define balance in a PJ offense, because hes never going to get close to 50/50 and I would guess hes never going to get close to 60/40 even.
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Post by bigdog2003 on Dec 6, 2008 12:32:15 GMT -6
Passing enough to keep the defense off guard. Could be 5 times a game, could be 20 times a game what ever it takes.
Also, they give you so many different looks that they are nearly impossible to stop.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 6, 2008 13:07:08 GMT -6
CB, you are too funny ;D
Back years ago, we had trouble stopping the option with the 5-3 defense. Has so much changed that it works now?
OJW
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Post by coachcb on Dec 6, 2008 18:16:30 GMT -6
CB, you are too funny ;D Back years ago, we had trouble stopping the option with the 5-3 defense. Has so much changed that it works now? OJW Wow- you mean the odd front stack existed BEFORE West Virginia started to run it?? Darn, I figured it was so innovative that the CIA developed it to stop the spread of the Single Wing (yet another brand-spanking new form of offensive football) ;D ;D You will have to pardon me, I had close contact with an individual who spent the entire year trying to get us into an 3-3-5. Even though our 4-3 allowed an average of 8 points a game all year and was #1 or #2 in all other statistical categories.
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Post by utchuckd on Dec 6, 2008 18:21:15 GMT -6
our 4-3 allowed an average of 8 points a game all year and was #1 or #2 in all other statistical categories. So you're saying there's room for improvement.
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