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Post by amikell on Nov 30, 2008 10:50:34 GMT -6
Right - The ran their ends over formation into the boundary to give them space to the field. It was a great strategy to counter the UGA defense, who is still a great defense. >>Warning: UGA fan comment<< I don't think UGA haas a great defense. last year, yes. This year no. They may be the worst tackling team in the country. Against quality opponents they give up way too many points, but more importantly, they don't/can't tackle. All season the UGA defenders shoulder tackle rather than wrap up. As a fan and a defensive coach, this drives me nuts. now specifically the the GT game, I thought Tech ran the option superbly. I'm a big fan of Paul Johnson and the flexbone, so even though UGA lost, it's ok. Did anyone else notice how UGA was defending the option? They were in an 8 man front that looked essentially like a 44, but it looked to me like they were slow playing each phase of the option, and playing man on the corners. The ILBs did a decent job of taking care of the inside veer and midline, but the pitch phase was poorly defended. I reallize that they were tryign to string the play out, to allow the FS to get to the pitch, but does this seem like a faulty scheme to anyone other than me? Several times, GT would just get a peice the FS or force player and that would open up just a hair of a seam for the pitch phase or even the QB to gain a few yards. Do you guys think it would have been more sound for UGA to declare one man to QB and pitch rather than slow play like they did?
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Post by los on Nov 30, 2008 11:09:33 GMT -6
I agree Amik.....not a "great" defense.....adequate, when the offense and special teams are flawless, lol.....just saw a little of the game in passing.....ie. whenever I had a chance to walk past the TV at work, so didn't get to see all the details....have to watch a replay!
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Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 11:16:54 GMT -6
From what I saw, I thought a lot of the game UGA had 2 guys covering either the QB or PItchman instead of one on each. There were a few times when the QB pitched when I thought he could have turned it up for a huge gain. The last few weeks have been a clinic of how to not play the option.
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Post by amikell on Nov 30, 2008 12:02:56 GMT -6
Yash, I think UGA ws overlapping the defenders. the DE would have dive to QB and the OLB would have QB to pitch. FS would have Pitch, DT and ILB would have Dive. at least that's how it looked to me.
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Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 12:11:02 GMT -6
That may be true. I know I saw a few times where they double covered one aspect of the option and left the other one totally uncovered which probably meant that GT blocked the guy who was supposed to be taking that phase of the game.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 30, 2008 13:15:35 GMT -6
That may be true. I know I saw a few times where they double covered one aspect of the option and left the other one totally uncovered which probably meant that GT blocked the guy who was supposed to be taking that phase of the game. Tech seems to be enjoying the fruits of being the only opponent running the triple. Teams that make a living running the triple switch blocking assignments to foil the "assignment football". With teams facing just one option club, it is difficult for teams to build in several methods to defend the option...giving Tech a great opportunity. It will be interesting to see how this progresses...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2008 14:32:03 GMT -6
I was very impressed with it, it was a great game too UGA has nothing to be ashamed of, defense was a little questionable. Noboby was holding back. I just don't think they were ready for a full on triple option team.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2008 15:14:15 GMT -6
That may be true. I know I saw a few times where they double covered one aspect of the option and left the other one totally uncovered which probably meant that GT blocked the guy who was supposed to be taking that phase of the game. yeah, from what i saw it looked like they had the end on the dive and the OLB sort of between the QB and the pitch man...most of the time the ball got pitched. the safety over top looked like he was just taking some bad angles to the pitch man, also sometimes when they had a slotback to that side he got a piece of the safety to spring a long gain to the outside. LB in that case really had no chance to get the pitch. also great job by the wideouts for tech blocking downfield, a couple times the pitch man got a clean pitch with a WR 10 yards downfield holding his block. it'll be interesting to see how next year goes now that the ACC has all offseason to work on this (however coach paul johnson has all offseason to tweak his attack as well).
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Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 15:32:45 GMT -6
The thing with defending the triple option is they only do it once a year. Are teams going to spedn the whole off season trying to stop an offense they only see once a year, or trying to defend the spread which they see 6 or 7 times a year. Now I don't doubt that teams will put some time into stopping it, but they probably won't spend the whole offseason. Too many non-option offenses to stop to put all your time onto one game. Just think once Johnson gets some guys in the system that want to play that kind of ball and have played it before. Its going to be hard to stop him.
One other thing that is going to really contribute to his success is the defense. At GT he can have big linemen and he can get top talent that he wasn't able to get at Navy. The line will be a lot bigger stronger, faster on both sides of the ball. It will be interesting to see where the program is at 5 years down the road.
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Post by coachjaz on Nov 30, 2008 20:09:45 GMT -6
If you read PJ's press conference after the UNC game, he was getting irritated with the reporters as usual. He said there is no magic elixer to stop his offense, and he has seen just about everything a defense can do, therefore it comes down to a matter of execution. If his teams dont turn the ball over, and play some defense they are very hard to stop. He will get the yards.
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 30, 2008 21:06:01 GMT -6
<<I would have to disagree with you on this based on the lack of understanding of this offense. If I was wanting to be a pro style QB then yes it may hurt you, but they also said that about wing-t Qbs too, until Rich Gannon made it.>> There was a wing-t QB who had some success in the NFL besides Gannon, ummm...what was his name again? Oh yeah, Brett Favre! Southern Miss was I Bone / Wishbone when Favre was there.
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Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 21:36:21 GMT -6
Against UNC they had the yards, they just turned it over too much.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 30, 2008 21:50:05 GMT -6
Against UNC they had the yards, they just turned it over too much. man, how many games have i lost over the years where we've said this ..... i don't watch 'em much, but one thing i have noticed is that they get great perimeter play out of their receivers. they gotten them to buy into perimeter blocking. and, let's be honest those guys out there can be talked out of a tackle real easy ... lol. so, when you get guys that are willing to physically block on the perimeter, you can get some big runs. what his "success" at GT means to me is that, um, maybe it's not so much WHAT you run, but how you can convince your players to buy into it. how well you know it and can teach it in the proper sequence to get the offense instilled in them. can you call the plays in the proper order, at the proper time, vs the proper looks. heck, can you even get the looks you want, etc. next year it will likely be something else we are "raving" about...
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Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 22:05:04 GMT -6
Against UNC they had the yards, they just turned it over too much. next year it will likely be something else we are "raving" about... Well, i think one of the big reasons that everyone is raving about it is because everyone said you couldn't run this offense at the level, in that conference and hes proved everyone wrong. Its the same as when Urban Meyer took the spread option to the SEC and everyone said you can't run that there and by golly hes done it. I think it goes back to just what you said huey in that its how you get your guys to buy into it, how you call the plays, and how you execute.
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Post by dubber on Nov 30, 2008 22:10:35 GMT -6
what his "success" at GT means to me is that, um, maybe it's not so much WHAT you run, but how you can convince your players to buy into it. how well you know it and can teach it in the proper sequence to get the offense instilled in them. can you call the plays in the proper order, at the proper time, vs the proper looks. And, the mere fact of running some thing different helps too. Triple Option Flexbone wouldn't be so special if everyone ran it (talk about circular reasoning!) When a team has success with a particular scheme, other teams are bound to copy it. A lot of those teams will be, uh, sucky. As the offense gains popularity, more and more bad teams start running it. Or at least the paper version of it......they still do not teach fundis, they still can't adjust, utilize their athletes, etc. And now, the Air Raid, etc. sucks.........because it sure can't be us! So, once everyone goes spread in our area, we'll start running T-tight and shifting to the SW. Different is NOT magic, but it is part of the e.d.g.e. you need. That being said, Paul Johnson isn't just winning games because his offense is "different".......
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Post by coachjaz on Nov 30, 2008 22:12:50 GMT -6
At the college level I really think anything can work if taught properly with the right players, but there has to be something said about doing something so different from the competition the defense really has to devise a new attack just for your offense.
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Post by Yash on Nov 30, 2008 22:13:47 GMT -6
So we've talked about how hard it is to stop this offense, how do you guys stop it, or how would you approach stopping it?
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Post by spreadattack on Nov 30, 2008 22:31:30 GMT -6
There's certain threshold things every offense has to give you to even be considered:
must give you ways to get it to your playmakers
must give you specific things you can do to put your kids in position to succeed/score against most of what you'll see (fronts, coverages, etc)
must fit together in some way (series football)
very basic. from there it's all execution and uniqueness, with execution being far more important but uniqueness being often a helpful tiebreaker. Johnson's offense is both unique and he is steeped in it (which is actually not an easy combination to have -- usually what is new to others is new to you, Johnson gets to have it both ways). Undoubtedly, even as his offense becomes less unique, the execution (and players) will improve. Gotta enjoy it
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Post by coachjaz on Nov 30, 2008 23:27:28 GMT -6
Chris - That is a good point, which has led me back to this thought many many times.
"How unoriginal is this offense going to become?"
The problem then lies in "at least at the college level" how many people know this offense at least close to how PJ knows it? The answer to that is very very few, and in today's throw the ball 1,000 times a game climate of college football, I dont know if there will be any coaches beating down Johnson's door to get the answer.
One of my friends suggested that the person in the triple option family (Georgia Tech, Navy, Army) who may get a shot at being a HC again "although not this year" would be Sewak. I agreed with him by I think Sewak is also not really the PR type, and if he were to get a head coaching gig again it would have to be somewhere in the south. Thats just his personality. I dont think you will see him trucking off to Washington State or New Mexico or Indiana anytime soon.
Then who's next? Ken Niumatalolo? He wont leave yet? The stigma he has to overcome at the very least is that he has to at worst sustain Johnson's success at Navy. What would interest me, in the long run I guess is would he be interested in returning to Hawaii at some point? I dont know I am purely speculating here.
If you take a look at the Air Force guys there are a few from that offensive staff still coaching college football, but all of them have moved on to other system's and staffs, and the obvious answer Chuck Peterson ...... having met the guy I dont think he wants to be a head coach. Now again Im purely speculating, but the truth is in there somewhere.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 1, 2008 7:56:52 GMT -6
So we've talked about how hard it is to stop this offense, how do you guys stop it, or how would you approach stopping it? Invite the qb and fb to a party, make sure there are lots of drugs and guns involved. Just happen to invite the coaching staff and school admin to the same party. Thats the best bet to stop the offense.
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 1, 2008 8:03:29 GMT -6
Chris - That is a good point, which has led me back to this thought many many times. "How unoriginal is this offense going to become?" The problem then lies in "at least at the college level" how many people know this offense at least close to how PJ knows it? The answer to that is very very few, and in today's throw the ball 1,000 times a game climate of college football, I dont know if there will be any coaches beating down Johnson's door to get the answer. One of my friends suggested that the person in the triple option family (Georgia Tech, Navy, Army) who may get a shot at being a HC again "although not this year" would be Sewak. I agreed with him by I think Sewak is also not really the PR type, and if he were to get a head coaching gig again it would have to be somewhere in the south. Thats just his personality. I dont think you will see him trucking off to Washington State or New Mexico or Indiana anytime soon. Then who's next? Ken Niumatalolo? He wont leave yet? The stigma he has to overcome at the very least is that he has to at worst sustain Johnson's success at Navy. What would interest me, in the long run I guess is would he be interested in returning to Hawaii at some point? I dont know I am purely speculating here. If you take a look at the Air Force guys there are a few from that offensive staff still coaching college football, but all of them have moved on to other system's and staffs, and the obvious answer Chuck Peterson ...... having met the guy I dont think he wants to be a head coach. Now again Im purely speculating, but the truth is in there somewhere. The X factor are guys who have coached in that offense but don't currently do so. Maybe they coached it in HS, maybe were temporarily on the staffs at one of those programs (you're probably more familiar with the coaching trees than me) and have moved on. And -- I'm currently working on an article now -- others still have time to study the offense and get in while the getting is good. For exhibit A I use Urban Meyer, who before 2000 had never coached the "spread" in any form, but when he took over Bowling Green he and his staff visited Louisville, Purdue, Northwestern, and West Virginia, and he is now known as a "spread guru." The option is a little trickier obviously than running your base plays from the shotgun spread, but a HC who believed in the offense could nevertheless pick up some assistants and visit GT and the academies and probably get up to speed. Keep in mind I'm thinking of small schools doing this for now. But we'll see.
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Post by coachmacplains on Dec 1, 2008 11:11:18 GMT -6
coachmacplains.. a flexbone fullback is a non existent commodity in the NFL. NFL backs are either running backs, or small fast guards. My point is simply that a guy who has physical traits that would get him looks as an NFL fullback can just as well play in a college system that allows him to carry the ball more. Peyton Hillis had 367 yards on 65 carries as a senior at Arkansas, but he is probably better known as the guy who blocked for Darren McFadden and Felix Jones; some might argue that he got better looks because he blocked for those guys. On the other hand, I could see someone like him line up at GT and impress the scouts just as much; they certainly would have gotten a better look at his running ability.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 1, 2008 16:57:41 GMT -6
Yash, what you are describing as "layering" I assumed was misassignments. I could be totally wrong, but I saw the same thing that Amikell was seeing DE on dive etc.
I think you stop this offense by making the quarterback spit the seed. Take care of dive and Q first and hit them hard and then have guys rally to the pitchman like an OLB, FS, or corner.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 1, 2008 17:31:02 GMT -6
coachmacplains.. a flexbone fullback is a non existent commodity in the NFL. NFL backs are either running backs, or small fast guards. My point is simply that a guy who has physical traits that would get him looks as an NFL fullback can just as well play in a college system that allows him to carry the ball more. Peyton Hillis had 367 yards on 65 carries as a senior at Arkansas, but he is probably better known as the guy who blocked for Darren McFadden and Felix Jones; some might argue that he got better looks because he blocked for those guys. On the other hand, I could see someone like him line up at GT and impress the scouts just as much; they certainly would have gotten a better look at his running ability. My point is that the physical traits of an NFL fullback are not really on display in the flexbone. NFL fullbacks are sledgehammers. Owners pay 7 digits to the guys who run the ball, they pay 6 digits to the "guards in the backfield" that block for them. The FLEX doesn't really want sledgehammers as the B back. They want running backs at the B back. The NFL doesn't want B backs as sledgehammers. They want sledgehammers as sledgehammers.
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Post by coachdubyah on Dec 1, 2008 18:28:12 GMT -6
So we've talked about how hard it is to stop this offense, how do you guys stop it, or how would you approach stopping it? Invite the qb and fb to a party, make sure there are lots of drugs and guns involved. Just happen to invite the coaching staff and school admin to the same party. Thats the best bet to stop the offense. You dont stop the Triple Option, you defend it and hope that you can out last it. That is what happened to Georgia this weekend. They got comfortable. The SS for Georgia was barking all 1st half long. Every time he would make a tackle he would get up and do is little dance, talk his trash, etc... The second half he got taken advantage of for the rest of the day. The play in the 4th quarter when SB Roddy Jones took it the distance, he got caught out of position badly. Never heard from him or saw him again. Georgia (as well as other teams) lose focus on their assignments. I have been watching Triple Option teams (specifically Johnson) for 9 years. PJ has the gift of being able to take advantage and expose a defense in the second half.
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Post by futureazcoach on Dec 1, 2008 19:13:41 GMT -6
On the topic of B backs and the transition to the nfl. PJ's B backs at GT will be tailbacks in the NFL. Look at his Ga Southern kid Peterson the original is a back up in Chicago. When he has the backs like that you see a lot more option and plays to the outside for the b back. As far as b backs going to full back in nfl i don't think he will have many because dwyer is just the start of boys that will run free in that league
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2008 0:03:42 GMT -6
On the topic of B backs and the transition to the nfl. PJ's B backs at GT will be tailbacks in the NFL. Look at his Ga Southern kid Peterson the original is a back up in Chicago. When he has the backs like that you see a lot more option and plays to the outside for the b back. As far as b backs going to full back in nfl i don't think he will have many because dwyer is just the start of boys that will run free in that league Agree....adrian peterson (from ga southern) has been doing ok in the NFL, a kid from a D-IAA school. I believe PJ also had a cuople b-backs at Navy play some in the NFL, kyle eckel bounced around the league a little as a fullback. just think how someone like dwyer will do from a big-time BCS school, especially once PJ gets his recruits sold on the system and really begins to reel in the talent.
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Post by theprez98 on Dec 3, 2008 5:43:29 GMT -6
Kyle Eckel played 12 games for the Pats last year, and was just recently signed and plays for the Eagles, and suddenly they can convert on 3rd and 1 now!
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Post by coachmacplains on Dec 4, 2008 15:54:19 GMT -6
My point is simply that a guy who has physical traits that would get him looks as an NFL fullback can just as well play in a college system that allows him to carry the ball more. Peyton Hillis had 367 yards on 65 carries as a senior at Arkansas, but he is probably better known as the guy who blocked for Darren McFadden and Felix Jones; some might argue that he got better looks because he blocked for those guys. On the other hand, I could see someone like him line up at GT and impress the scouts just as much; they certainly would have gotten a better look at his running ability. My point is that the physical traits of an NFL fullback are not really on display in the flexbone. NFL fullbacks are sledgehammers. Owners pay 7 digits to the guys who run the ball, they pay 6 digits to the "guards in the backfield" that block for them. The FLEX doesn't really want sledgehammers as the B back. They want running backs at the B back. The NFL doesn't want B backs as sledgehammers. They want sledgehammers as sledgehammers. If a sledghammer can run, all the better. The reason I used Peyton Hillis as an example is that, ironically, he was a blocking fullback in college and yet now, due to injuries, is running the ball, even though he wasn't primarily drafted for that reason. If you re-wind a few years to the days when he was considering where to play, I wonder if he might not have thought it attractive to play in a system like GT's, where he would get to run the ball a lot more. If a guy has the size and toughness, and also has the ability to run, why not play in the flex? I know Paul Johnson is looking for guys like that. BTW, Jonathan Dwyer looks like an NFL FB to me....who can run.
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 4, 2008 16:03:26 GMT -6
How many high school running backs say "I want to go where I will play 25% of the snaps and carry the ball twice a year as a full-time fullback"?
I would think PJ's offense would be attractive to running backs for the same reason that Leach's offense would be attractive to receivers: you'll get your touches, the opportunity to make plays, and we use a lot of you so you can get on the field early (don't have to wait until Junior/Senior year to be "the guy").
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