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Post by coachcb on Nov 14, 2007 6:55:12 GMT -6
This is a great trend fellas; I hope it continues. Keep giving our offense a 30 yard field to work with and we'll keep on scoring points. Just don't expect us to return the favor.
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Post by k on Nov 14, 2007 7:17:34 GMT -6
I'm not trying to be a smarta$$. But lets say you have a 4th and 35 from their 40. If I made it sound like an absolute that is my fault. In the situation you described I'd probably punt... Although in a similar situation I've been known to throw the ball up for my 6'4'' split end and hope he catches it or it gets picked off... =)
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Post by lochness on Nov 14, 2007 7:18:17 GMT -6
This is a great trend fellas; I hope it continues. Keep giving our offense a 30 yard field to work with and we'll keep on scoring points. Just don't expect us to return the favor. Hehe...I like THAT philosophy. What ever happened to playing field position and good defense?
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Post by coachcalande on Nov 14, 2007 7:25:47 GMT -6
I have called for our team to punt 3 times since 1999...I cant remember who my punter was last year??? never punted.
we have an all county punter now at the hs level. punting is a weapon...well, we still lost one game on a punt return. sigh.
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0c
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by 0c on Nov 14, 2007 8:48:18 GMT -6
Give us a short field and we will score.
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Post by eickst on Nov 14, 2007 10:54:55 GMT -6
Give us a short field and we will score. So you have scored on every drive this season that started in opposition territory?
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Post by brophy on Nov 14, 2007 10:57:02 GMT -6
Give us a short field and we will score. So you have scored on every drive this season that started in opposition territory? eickst, do you have a FG kicker? in youth ball, the <10 isn't much different than the >10
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Post by wingt74 on Nov 14, 2007 11:13:34 GMT -6
C'mon guys, we're scaring away new coaches coming to this board.
Are we seriously debating this?
I had a game this year that we won because of the field position battle. Both teams weren't getting more than 1 first down on a drive and kept punting the ball back and forth. We were out punting them, and suddenly found ourselves with the ball at their 30 after they just went for it on 4th and 5...1 first down, and our Red zone play to our TE found ourselves up 7-0. Say they go for it and get it? The way the defenses were playing, they would have punted eventually anyway. (Or stalled)
late in the first half, 4th and 15 at our own 50...close game. Go for it? No way, kick the ball and make them travel further for the score with less than 2 minutes on the clock.
It's all about your punter and your offense. Bad punter, good offense, yeah, MUCH less punts. Good punter, poor offense? Punt away
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Nov 14, 2007 11:22:43 GMT -6
I think its awesome when an offense goes for it on 4th...
I love how when Paul Johnson first got to Navy and was punting 1-2 times a game and the media was questioning his palycalling...something like...
Reporter- "So ehh can you explain your thoughts on going for it on 4th and 8 from the opponents' 22 yd line?"
PJ- "I didn't have to think twice..."
"Why"
<sarcastically> "WHY? Have your seen our kicking game?
Read his post-game press conferences...they are freakin hilarious
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 14, 2007 11:45:22 GMT -6
It really is as simple as a return on your "investment" and the expected value of the play. If your punt game isn't going to change field position, then the proper "expected value" play is to give your self 4 chances to make 10 yards instead of 3 chances.
I think this is 2 pages of people without kickers boasting about the merits of not punting, and people with punters thinking that this is insane. Both sets of people are probably correct in their decisions.
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Post by eickst on Nov 14, 2007 12:14:29 GMT -6
I think you are correct, coachd. And also I feel the need to let everyone know that I coach youth football, not high school. I never have a punter
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0c
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by 0c on Nov 14, 2007 12:14:33 GMT -6
If the opposition can score quickly, a short field will benefit them. We average 385 yards per game this year through 12 games, so a short field often led to a score for us. Other years we have been successful puting a team deep and playing field position. I have seen many teams gamble on one play with a lot of time left and lose the game. I suppose the longer that I coach the more conservative I get with punting.
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Post by airman on Nov 14, 2007 13:09:29 GMT -6
i know several double wing coaches and if you read the book the toss. it states you have 4 tries to make 10 yds. in the book the toss there goal was 3 yrs per attempt.
smith center has not punted this year. even with there success some one must have held them to a 4th down or 2 during the season and playoffs.
i think the punt in a wonderful offensive weapon. i HAVE PUNTED ON FRIST DOWN ON A RAINY, WINDY NIGHT. WHY, CAUSE THE OTHER TEAM HAD TO HANDLE THE BALL.
this said, if we are 35 yd line going in, we are going for it on 4th down. most high school kickers have about 40 yd max for distance if that so you need to be at the 23 yds line for it to be a 40 yd fg attempt. why not go for it on the 23 yd line if it is 4th 1 to 5 yds.
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Post by dubber on Nov 14, 2007 13:50:40 GMT -6
This guy has to be your HC to never punt OC: Coach, it's 4th and 56 from our own 3 yard line......do you want to go for it? Randy: OH YEAH!!!!
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Post by eickst on Nov 14, 2007 14:02:56 GMT -6
You left out the "SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM!" part.
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Post by ttone2210 on Nov 14, 2007 19:03:16 GMT -6
One thing I think you have to seriously consider about going for it on fouth down is the momentum swings. Stopping a team on a fourth down can be a big lift for a team. This has to do with how important you as a coach think momentum is to players.
I think its a big part of the game. Going for a 4th and short early in a game in you're own terriritory can have a big impact on momentum. By going for it you are showing confidence in your offense and it can be an early dagger into the defense if you get it. But not converting, gives the other team a whole lot of momentum. While punting can give their defense a lift, its not near the lift they get stopping you on fourth.
I think you have to pick and choose when to take risks in football games. How much are you going to gain by converting this fouth down? Does the gain outweight the impact if you don't get it?
Watching Notre Dame earlier this year, they went for a fourth down on the opponents 25 yard line. I believe it was like 4th and 7. They got it. Then got 2 yards on the next three plays. Facing a 4th and 8 from the 23 they kicked the FG. I had to ask what the difference was. Why go for one but not the other? I'm sure their staff definately has good reasons for what they do, but to me it was unclear.
Anyone have any thoughts on the momentum aspect?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 15, 2007 9:14:03 GMT -6
I'll address this to those who haven't read the Romer paper (and to the coaches who did, I want to thank you both very much).
Romer's point is this: Having scrutinized every 1st-quarter NFL play from 1998-2000, it became clear to him that coaches are way too risk-averse when it comes to kicking vs. going for it on 4th down. (Concentrating on 1st quarter plays eliminates the added factors involved in a near-halftime or -end of game situtation.)
He examines all kicking situations, BTW, like going for it on 4th & goal from the 2 versus attempting the field goal -- where NFL coaches still tend to kick without thinking about it.
(Field-position differential between the two choices means that the break-even point between going for it in that situation or kicking it actually occurs when your chances of going for it successfully are only 18%, and yet coaches at that level kick the ball almost all the time.)
I can't fault his analysis or his conclusions, and it would behoove all of us to read his paper...as always, of course, IMO.
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Post by ajreaper on Nov 15, 2007 10:13:05 GMT -6
If you won't punt I want to schedule you.
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Post by djwesp on Nov 15, 2007 12:14:39 GMT -6
If you won't punt I want to schedule you. Fine, you be the one brave enough to Schedule Pulaski Academy. Go ahead and give Coach Kelley a call. You are in for a special treat.
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0c
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by 0c on Nov 15, 2007 12:19:13 GMT -6
I am now reading this paper... just a thought, where do you think the grant came from to pay for this study?
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Post by ajreaper on Nov 15, 2007 12:43:24 GMT -6
If you won't punt I want to schedule you. Fine, you be the one brave enough to Schedule Pulaski Academy. Go ahead and give Coach Kelley a call. You are in for a special treat. LOL, for every proven winner you can find who is not an advocate of punting I can find 20 who are. It might be the reason you never need to punt is your comp is lacking not your no punt philospy is leading you to W's you'd otherwise not earn.
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Post by carookie on Nov 15, 2007 13:11:13 GMT -6
Coach Seay,
If you could repost the link to the romer study, I'm still unable to link to it.
Thanks
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 15, 2007 13:30:10 GMT -6
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Post by silkyice on Nov 15, 2007 15:22:28 GMT -6
Anyone have any thoughts on the momentum aspect? I certainly would rather have momentum, than not have it, but I think momentum is way overrated. Two examples. One: you have the ball on your 40 yardline. Two: you have the ball on your 5 yardline, but just recovered a fumble and got momentum. Which one do you chose, the momentum and 95 yards to score or 60 yards to score? I know that is a stupid example, but situations are more important than momentum. Another question, would you rather have the lead or the momentum?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 16, 2007 0:16:12 GMT -6
Coach Seay, If you could repost the link to the romer study, I'm still unable to link to it. Thanks Just tried it, the link is working fine...
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 16, 2007 0:17:53 GMT -6
I am now reading this paper... just a thought, where do you think the grant came from to pay for this study? Not much needed in the way of a grant -- the data were all available on-line, and these econ guys are very much in publish-or-perish mode...
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 16, 2007 0:22:33 GMT -6
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Post by dubber on Nov 16, 2007 12:11:53 GMT -6
read Heidegger...........nuff said.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 17, 2007 6:47:35 GMT -6
read Heidegger...........nuff said. No thanks -- I can read Chomsky and get my nonsense fix even faster...
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Post by wildcat on Nov 17, 2007 8:10:11 GMT -6
with all due respect to you folks who go for it on 4th down.... HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS? It is real easy to go four downs when; 1) there is nothing really riding on that decision 2) the other team can't make you pay for it 3) the offense you face inside the 30 is the same you'd face inside THEIR 30 4) when you are playing truncated quarters (not enough time for field position to make a difference) 5) your opponents CANNOT convert 45 - 50 yd FGs consistently apples to orangutans, people. Bingo. Another perfect example of the differences between youth ball and high school ball. Very easy to go for it all of the time in youth ball. very hard to go for it all of the time in high school.
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