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Post by rbsuknow on Nov 13, 2007 16:38:50 GMT -6
interesting article on espn.com about a team that doesn't punt anymore. it is Trend 3 sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/071113it was a good read. we actually converted 7 of 9 4th downs in our last game and won by 8. we only punted once. i am not a big fan of punting after we cross the 50 but i don't know if i have the balls to call a play on 4th down inside our 20
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Post by airraider on Nov 13, 2007 16:55:52 GMT -6
It was a rarity for my old HC to punt.. we probably went for it around 70% of the time..
went for it several times inside our own 40.. and a few inside our own 20..
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Post by eickst on Nov 13, 2007 17:20:14 GMT -6
A punt is a turnover.
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Post by rbsuknow on Nov 13, 2007 17:23:56 GMT -6
so do you punt then
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Post by eickst on Nov 13, 2007 17:33:39 GMT -6
so do you punt then I ****ed once the entire season that we just finished. Our team was up 26-0 in the fourth quarter with less than 5 minutes to play and I was on their 15 yard line. I do not ****. See, look at that. Even the message board is picking up on the fact that I think **** is a four letter word.
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Post by dubber on Nov 13, 2007 17:34:24 GMT -6
I can see this (from anywhere on the field) IF the distance is managable. 4th and 8 or less is a makeable down for most teams with a decent passing game.
4th and 15 though................
I'd really like to know how a team like this approaches 4th and 15+
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Post by dubber on Nov 13, 2007 17:38:56 GMT -6
so do you punt then I ****ed once the entire season that we just finished. Our team was up 26-0 in the fourth quarter with less than 5 minutes to play and I was on their 15 yard line. I do not ****. See, look at that. Even the message board is picking up on the fact that I think **** is a four letter word. coach, not to be condescending, but punting IMO is something no youth coach should do.......find a kid that can snap it 10 yards (not over the punters, and a punter who can kick it 35+ yards..........that is tough at the youth level. At your level, I understand never punting----too much can go wrong.
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Post by eickst on Nov 13, 2007 17:54:55 GMT -6
Oh no, dubber, I agree and you're not being condescending at all. If I was a HS coach, maybe I'd approach it differently.
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Post by brophy on Nov 13, 2007 18:10:05 GMT -6
maybe its just my recessive DEFENSIVE gene, but PUNTING isn't a terrible thing. You punt out of respect for your defense. Change field position and you can dictate the field position of the offense (anyone ever heard of scoring ratios based on field position?). I'm all for going for the gusto, but there comes a point where you hold 'em, or walk away.....don't know where I heard that before.....
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Post by eickst on Nov 13, 2007 18:32:37 GMT -6
I was always out of the thought that you go for it in respect for your defense. If I have faith in my defense holding an offense out when they are in my red zone, I'll feel a lot better about going for it on 4th down. If I have no faith in my defense and want to put the burden on their offense to drive the length of the field, I punt.
I know it sounds backwards, but thats how I feel about it.
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Post by k on Nov 13, 2007 18:42:37 GMT -6
I don't get to make the calls for varsity games but I do for JV and Freshman games. I can assure you that I punt in JV & Freshman games. Why? Because our snapper for both is our varsity snapper and hasn't messed up a single snap on all three levels or in practice all year and our freshman/jv punter kicks boots.
The only play I'm sure is going to work in our favor is when we punt. =)
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Post by eickst on Nov 13, 2007 18:48:17 GMT -6
I don't get to make the calls for varsity games but I do for JV and Freshman games. I can assure you that I punt in JV & Freshman games. Why? Because our snapper for both is our varsity snapper and hasn't messed up a single snap on all three levels or in practice all year and our freshman/jv punter kicks boots. The only play I'm sure is going to work in our favor is when we punt. =) So of all those times you punted, how many times did the other team score on that possession? How many were returned for TDs? If the other team went 3 and out and punted, did you end up with worse or better field position than from where you punted? Did you punt on 4th and 1, 4th and 5, 4th and 10? What position on the field were you in? Were you up or down on the scoreboard? First half or second half? See, too many variables in deciding when to punt or not. I save practice time and my hairline recedes a little slower by not having to make those kind of decisions. Just don't punt. It's not scary going for it on 4th down if you ALWAYS go for it on fourth down. There's no decision to be made. Now instead of needing 3.33 yards per play to get a first, you need 2.5 per play. If it's 3rd and 10 you no longer have to pass because you still have 4th down to convert. Now that I think about, I don't know if I would punt in high school either.
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Post by brophy on Nov 13, 2007 18:57:14 GMT -6
with all due respect to you folks who go for it on 4th down....
HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS?
It is real easy to go four downs when; 1) there is nothing really riding on that decision 2) the other team can't make you pay for it 3) the offense you face inside the 30 is the same you'd face inside THEIR 30 4) when you are playing truncated quarters (not enough time for field position to make a difference) 5) your opponents CANNOT convert 45 - 50 yd FGs consistently
apples to orangutans, people.
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Post by airraider on Nov 13, 2007 19:13:08 GMT -6
with all due respect to you folks who go for it on 4th down.... HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS? It is real easy to go four downs when; 1) there is nothing really riding on that decision 2) the other team can't make you pay for it 3) the offense you face inside the 30 is the same you'd face inside THEIR 30 4) when you are playing truncated quarters (not enough time for field position to make a difference) apples to orangutans, people. ME!! I hate hearing the talking heads.. its incomplete and they'll have to punt.. BS!! I dont have to do anything.. its MY down.. 3rd and long is just another chance to get close for a 4th and short..
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Post by airman on Nov 13, 2007 19:34:45 GMT -6
hal mumme at a clinic once said he would go for it 50% of the time on 4th down. however, he would go for it both in a offensive set and the punting set. he felt that faking it from the punting set was eaiser as they relaxed. he also would line up in a offensive set and then punt the ball.
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Post by brophy on Nov 13, 2007 19:40:31 GMT -6
with all due respect to you folks who go for it on 4th down.... HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS? It is real easy to go four downs when; 1) there is nothing really riding on that decision 2) the other team can't make you pay for it 3) the offense you face inside the 30 is the same you'd face inside THEIR 30 4) when you are playing truncated quarters (not enough time for field position to make a difference) apples to orangutans, people. ME!! I hate hearing the talking heads.. its incomplete and they'll have to punt.. BS!! I dont have to do anything.. its MY down.. 3rd and long is just another chance to get close for a 4th and short.. let me rephrase that HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS ......WHOSE DEFENSE DOESN'T COMPLETELY BLOW $%#@ ?
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Post by phantom on Nov 13, 2007 19:46:39 GMT -6
How many are varsity DEFENSIVE coordinators? I have a lot of good calls when the bad guys have the ball on their 20. On our 20? Not so many.
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Post by airraider on Nov 13, 2007 19:48:21 GMT -6
ME!! I hate hearing the talking heads.. its incomplete and they'll have to punt.. BS!! I dont have to do anything.. its MY down.. 3rd and long is just another chance to get close for a 4th and short.. let me rephrase that HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS ......WHOSE DEFENSE DOESN'T COMPLETELY BLOW $%#@ ? LMAO!! Well my HC wouldnt LET me go for it much this year.. But last year.. we went for it ALOT and our defense was above average..
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Post by coachmoore42 on Nov 13, 2007 19:57:13 GMT -6
I'm on the other side of the fence.
Third and 15+...how many times will you make that? I will quick kick it in a heartbeat to flip the field position.
This is coming from a Defensive Coordinator who blows a vein everytime the HC wants to go for it inside our own 40 though...
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Post by brophy on Nov 13, 2007 20:01:22 GMT -6
I love TMQ I caught this before I got distracted; TREND 1: Misuse of analgesics. In recent years, high school football players seeking an edge have swigged Red Bull and similar energy drinks, taken too many vitamins and supplements. TREND 2: High school recruiting and district-hopping. TREND 3: Now for some good news. Pulaski football -- at the cutting edge of sports innovation. Pulaski Academy does not punt.
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Post by goldenbear76 on Nov 13, 2007 21:01:20 GMT -6
I find this to be true more than not...
Teams that have a punter...punt. If your so called punter kicks it 15-20 yards every time...yeah..sure i'll go for it on 4th down too. If your punter is booming them 35-45 yards, and you go for it inside your 20..i think that strategy is going to catch up to you. We've been fortunate to have a kid that pretty much hits about 40+ yards on punts every time. Teams rarely get short fields to work with against our defense.
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Post by rbsuknow on Nov 13, 2007 21:21:37 GMT -6
ME!! I hate hearing the talking heads.. its incomplete and they'll have to punt.. BS!! I dont have to do anything.. its MY down.. 3rd and long is just another chance to get close for a 4th and short.. let me rephrase that HOW MANY OF YOU ARE VARSITY COORDINATORS ......WHOSE DEFENSE DOESN'T COMPLETELY BLOW $%#@ ? i'm a varsity O coordinator but our D blows
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Post by brophy on Nov 13, 2007 21:23:05 GMT -6
I find this to be true more than not... Teams that have a punter...punt. If your so called punter kicks it 15-20 yards every time...yeah..sure i'll go for it on 4th down too. If your punter is booming them 35-45 yards, and you go for it inside your 20..i think that strategy is going to catch up to you. We've been fortunate to have a kid that pretty much hits about 40+ yards on punts every time. Teams rarely get short fields to work with against our defense. that is a great point. Part of my bias is ego. I love coaching punt team and kickers. Punt team is one of the funnest parts to coach and if you have a good punter (team) it is a helluva lot more reliable to essentially GAIN 40 yards than gamble on that likely yardage. That, and fake punts are awesome and there are a ton of them you can run.
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Post by k on Nov 13, 2007 21:40:49 GMT -6
So of all those times you punted, how many times did the other team score on that possession? A significantly lower percentage than when we turned it over on downs on our side of their forty. (Our punter/kicker knocks down 35-40 yard field goals at a ridiculous rate which is really nice since he is a freshman). So we go for it when between their 40 and their 25. We punt on our side of their 40 and go for 3 on their side of their 25. Zero returned for TD. Zero blocked. One significant return which resulted in a net gain of less than ten yards. We ALWAYS will win that match. We punted a lot so at different times we punted on 4th and 1 (deep in our end up by a good amount and with our D stopping theirs). We always punted on 4th down on our side of their 40 unless we were certain about getting the yardage (4th and inches on our 40 vs the 4-4 and running QB Sneak). Or when we were behind and needed to score before time ran out on us. I'm befuddled by that comment. It is like saying "To many variables in deciding what play to call." Eh my snapper and punter practice on their own time. We haven't done punt team practice since week 3 and before that we just did . My hairline would take more damage from going for it on our 25 when we're up by 7... I guess calling a trick play wouldn't be scary if you always ran Pro-Right Dive-Right. I strongly stand by having the option to punt. I'd even go to say that all of our wins this year were determined by field position battles first and foremost by our punting game.
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Post by jcarbon2 on Nov 13, 2007 21:58:04 GMT -6
Here is the rule;
Inside your 50 you have 3 downs to make the 10 yards. If not you punt. 3.33 yards per down. Inside their 50 you have 4 downs to make 10 yards. You go for it on fourth. 2.5 yards per down.
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Post by jraybern on Nov 13, 2007 22:41:02 GMT -6
Here is the rule;
Inside your 50 you have 3 downs to make the 10 yards. If not you punt. 3.33 yards per down. Inside their 50 you have 4 downs to make 10 yards. You go for it on fourth. 2.5 yards per down.
I'm not trying to be a smarta$$. But lets say you have a 4th and 35 from their 40. Do you still go for it then? I tend to consider the likelihood of making the first down - playing the odds - in addition to the risk involved in giving the opposition good field position. I'm more likely to go for it on 4th and 1 from my own 35 than the 4th and 35 from their 40. Maybe this sounds rediculously obvious, but then again maybe not. I'm shocked by the number of teams that will let games get out of hand when they are way behind by going for it on long 4th downs in their own end. Its almost like the coach wants to get his team embarrassed.
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Post by eickst on Nov 13, 2007 23:30:30 GMT -6
What if you get a first down on your 49? Do you have three or four downs?
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Post by carookie on Nov 13, 2007 23:42:49 GMT -6
I think what you are forgetting is that: "punting puts the other team in a position they don't want to be."- Jeff
I remember a few years ago some statistician/ professional mathmateican? came out with a study that said offenses should only punt on 4th and really long (I assume 10+) I tried to find the study but never could, I imagine it would be an interestin addition to this topic.
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Post by eickst on Nov 14, 2007 1:11:14 GMT -6
Oh damn...I totally forgot about Jeff's punting clinic. I withdraw my argument and hereby testify that I will not only punt, I will start doing it on THIRD down.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Nov 14, 2007 5:26:21 GMT -6
I remember a few years ago some statistician/ professional mathmateican? came out with a study that said offenses should only punt on 4th and really long (I assume 10+) I tried to find the study but never could, I imagine it would be an interestin addition to this topic. You are correct, sir! [/Ed McMahon voice] Romer's a professor of economics, BTW -- from Cal. Which may help explain many things to many people. www.savefile.com/files/1194425
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