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Post by bulldogoption on Dec 3, 2007 15:51:44 GMT -6
Where do YOU, AND your STAFF fit? I would place myself at a 3 and our program at a 2. I am close to getting a lot of info to work for me. Our STAFF has some more to go. I would imagine there are some vets who have seen a lot and some rooks just starting out? I like this style of graph (diminishing returns-ish) because it shows that there is a general knowledge base that you have to gain before your knowledge can really take off? At least thats how I felt a few years ago when i really started to get serious about learning football. I can see it in newer assistants eyes when they go to clinics. The lingo alone can be tough.
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Post by brophy on Dec 3, 2007 15:54:44 GMT -6
what is the formula? there is a general knowledge base that you have to gain before your knowledge can really take off? Yeah, that is a good point. It is hard to grasp concepts or minutiae if you don't have a launch point. Our staff?
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Post by coachorr on Dec 3, 2007 16:18:18 GMT -6
I am not a one nor am I a six. In some terms I might vew myself as a 4 or a 5, say offensive line play or the wing-t offense, but defense and special teams, I would say I am a 2 or a 3.
Now if this were an HC meter, how well you understand everyrthing that goes with it, well I am a 2.
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Post by bulldogoption on Dec 3, 2007 17:23:47 GMT -6
I don’t know the equation (nor do I have any real data ) and am scared to even propose one, its been SOME time since I derived/integrated. I would need your, or someone else’s help in trying to form one. I remember seeing this graph used to explain something a long time ago. It can be a real eyeopener for an inexperienced coach. It could provide hope or serve as a reality check. I think the point of the graph is that once you have attained a certain level of knowledge any small new insight can really make you or your program take off. Maybe you run the spread for a few years and have some troubles with it, but after a few years it really starts to take off as you learned all the little ins and outs. I also think that the entire graph could be shifted left when you learn under a successful coach (it could be shifted right also I suppose).
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Post by jraybern on Dec 3, 2007 17:57:55 GMT -6
Interesting. I would say I am a 2 TOPS. I am at that turning point where I am learning a lot, sometimes it seems overwhelming. Yet I know that in comparison I know nothing. I suppose the key would be for someone to continue climbing. I could see where one would cease to learn anything new or perhaps would revert back to lower levels of knowledge (as far as application of that knowledge is concerned).
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Post by brophy on Dec 3, 2007 18:05:26 GMT -6
to add to bulldog's thesis here,
I think that "functional knowledge" is required to understand how to APPLY what you know.
But there in lays the catch-22
[glow=red,2,300]How do you know what you don't know?[/glow]
Many of the ('career') coaches I've encountered over the years, are able to PARROT terms and schemes, but they have no working knowledge of the rationale behind it, nor do they realistically acknoweldge their weaknesses (how do you know where you are weak if you don't know WHY it is 'weak').
How do you get the light to come on?
I'm not very bright, so I've found that (the way I learned) was getting challenged in what I believe. It was shooting the breeze over a drink(s) and going back and forth on the bar napkins......
Some guys don't want to step into that kind of arena.
I know a lot of guys that have been coaching for 20 years or so and they-are-going-to-run-what-they-are-going-to-run and the rest of the stuff out there is fancy-schmancy. If it doesn't work, well, then.."....them there players jes need to step up....."
Personally, I think I am about a 2 or a 3. I know what I know and know how to work it, but I think I have about 1,000 more seasons to be anywhere near the league of anyone competent. I know just enough to appear competent and just enough to get bored and complacent.
I had a spike in learning when I got my feet put to the fire years ago....
Now, I know I have plateaued. I want to learn, but when you aren't forced to improve or adapt, you kinda get set in your ways.
Again, it goes back to what is on the line? Why do you NEED to learn?
If you think you have the answers, how motivated / inspired are you going to be to learn something new?
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Post by airraider on Dec 3, 2007 18:24:59 GMT -6
I would have to say I am probably a 10..
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Post by cmow5 on Dec 3, 2007 18:29:43 GMT -6
Is there a negative number on that graph?
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Post by revtaz on Dec 3, 2007 18:47:13 GMT -6
3.5
On my way to coaching supernova!!!
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Post by coachorr on Dec 3, 2007 18:48:14 GMT -6
If brophy is a 2 then I am a 1 or a zero.
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Post by kcbazooka on Dec 3, 2007 19:01:20 GMT -6
I've been coaching a long time... I guess the best thing I know is how much I don't know - there is so much to learn ... x's and o's why, when, what, how, who, where, motivating, working with others, weights, off-season, recruiting...
i've become one of those old coaches you see at clinics trying to get the most out of each speaker to see if one thing said may make a difference in the program -- whether it is something our program may use or something our opponent's may use.
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Post by dacoachmo on Dec 3, 2007 19:46:07 GMT -6
YP+YC-BC=FK
YP=years played
YC=years coached
BC=beers consumed
FK=football knowledge
try this formula with some dads in the stands...negatives...
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Post by amikell on Dec 3, 2007 19:51:29 GMT -6
brophy, that is by far the greatest picture I have EVER seen posted on this site. Bubba-Ho-Tep....classic.
on the topic, Special Teams (except for kicking technique) I'm a 4-5. Defense 3-4 focus is on DL and the 3-3 Offense: OL 4-5, wing t 2-3, flexbone 3-4
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Post by coachbdud on Dec 4, 2007 0:01:27 GMT -6
i am a 1.
I am only 19 and think i know a lot for someone of such a young age, but overall ive only just begun
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Post by lochness on Dec 4, 2007 7:37:23 GMT -6
I would say I'm a 3. I am above-average in offense knowledge. I've spent 12 years as an OC, and I've been exposed to a few different systems. I consider myself a very good RB position coach and an average QB position coach.
I still have a lot to learn about various defenses, and most of what I know is the knowledge that I've gained trying to understand the defenses from the offensive side of the ball (in putting together a game plan). I think I have a great understanding of defenses from a schematic point of view, but in terms of application I have a lot to learn. I consider myself an effective defensive skills coach with either safeties or CB's. I am fairly clueless on special teams, and could never be anything more than a "position coach" for guys like returners, protecters, and gunners. I know NOTHING about coaching specialists (punters, snappers, kickers, etc.). I am not much of a special teams schematics guy either.
For experience, I spent 3 years coaching youth football, 1 year as JV head coach at a small school, 9 years as OC at a big school, and 1 year as OC of a semi-pro team. I've coached every position except ILB, OL, and DL.
To pick up on what Brophy was saying earlier, I have found that there are a few different types of coaches:
1. Coaches like Brophy described (we run what we run). I go a step further and say that there is a SLIGHTLY different subset to this type which is the "I only know what I know" coach. These are guys that, for example, know a great deal about their defense. They know how it aligns to different formations, they know the keys, and they understand how the coverage supports the front, etc. But, they don't understand the "midline option," and they don't bother researching what the "double wing" is trying to accomplish. They only know what they know, and they don't want to immerse themselves in anything else.
2. Pure "position" coaches. These are coaches who don't care at all about what the team does schematically. They're not interested in whiteboards, napkins, clipboards, playbooks, or anything like that. They want to run drills and coach their positions. Most of the time, they only know THEIR position, and they've pretty good at it too.
3. Just the opposite of that is the pure "coordinator." He doesn't care about cones, bags, shields, or tackling dummies. All he wants to do is draw schemes up on the board. He goes to every clinic, but only goes to the schematic clinics. You'll never catch him in a "Teaching Form Tackling" or "Blocking Progressions" clinic. (This is kind of like what I was for a while)
4. Coaches who are truly no more than "fans with whistles." They are usually good "rah-rah" guys, the kids usually like them because they're fun, but all they know is what they see on TV every Saturday and Sunday afternoon. They're usually irritating in coach's meetings and fun on the field, as long as they don't try to do too much. Sometimes you get one of these guys who falls into a VERY dangerous subset, and that is someone who's EGO is 100 times greater than their football knowledge, and they don't see it. Anyone who thinks they know a lot more than they do is a very dangerous person usually.
5. Coaches who come out to read / post on this site....No seriously, the last and most rare coach is the one who is constantly looking to learn, grow, and improve. We ask our players to do this every day, so I've learned that as a coach, that's MY responsibility as well. For example, you may not want to run the 6-2 defense, but you can bet that this coach is going to read about it and watch tape about it because they need to understand what is happening if they face it. These coaches are usually very well-rounded, because they understand that schemes are nothing without teaching the proper fundamentals that match the schemes.
I think that finding good, qualified coaches is unfortunately rare. There are a ton of schools adding programs, but there are very few coaches who are truly dedicated to doing a good job, doing what it takes to improve their staff and their program, and learning and growing all the time. That's why places like this site are SO critical to our profession. The more quality we can generate in coaching, the better off our sport is in the long run.
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Post by jraybern on Dec 4, 2007 7:55:41 GMT -6
Loch, I like that! We have a coach from each of those categories on our staff.....and we are only a staff of 5!
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2007 9:50:36 GMT -6
Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the two axises on the graph are not related.
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Post by threeback on Dec 4, 2007 9:50:50 GMT -6
Every time I think that I'm a 3 on the scale, guys like brophy and lochness make me feel like a freaking 1! Offensively, I think I'm about a 2. I know a great deal about the Wing T, but much less about other offenses, which brings my overall knowledge down. I've only been an OC for one year, so there is no way in hell I can sit here and try match posts with guys like lochness, coachorr, brophy, tog, and guys like that. But the great thing is that I can sit here and learn from guys that have been around much longer than me and have seen d-mn near everything there is to see- which helps me to not freak out when those moments come along. Even if it's not Wing T or a 4-3 multiple, I love to read and learn about it. The different concepts of particular offenses and defenses, schemes devised in situational purposes, the basic mentality of particular position coaches and coordinators when facing certain situations. All of this knowledge helps you to become a better football coach.
An even better chart to post would be a "Pre-CoachHuey" and "Post-CoachHuey" knowledge curve. My curve would be horizontal (pre-), and then near vertical (post-). Never realize how much football you know until you realize what you don't know; then you realize "d-mn, I'm a freaking idiot"! To re-emphasize what lochness said- I think that the more quality we can generate in coaching, the better off we will all be. Kids will be getting quality coaching from guys knowledgable about the game, and you don't have worry about working with some dude that is a cheerleader with a whistle.................most of the time...
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 4, 2007 10:01:55 GMT -6
I don't know where I am on your graph and this is my 27th year in coaching. When I started out, I thought I knew it all - or at least more than the other coaches I was working with. It didn't take me long to realize how much I didn't know! I can tell you one thing however, the longer I coach, the MORE I learn!
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Post by lochness on Dec 4, 2007 10:07:00 GMT -6
I have found that, outside of using tools like this board, one of the best and easiest ways to learn about football is to simply break-down game film.
I essentially got into coaching by watching film of my HS games when I was still in my teens. Our HC used to make me a copy of the game right after we had played and give it to me to watch. I still have a lot of those games, and I'd watch them over and over again and try to learn as much as I could about why certain things worked and certian things did not work. One of the best features was, during our home games, you could hear our coaches in the press box clearly on the film, so you could get an idea of what they were looking for and WHY they were making the calls they were making.
I learned a TON from this process when I was younger, and really enjoyed it. I think that ultimately, this is what got me "into" wanting to coach.
The other way I've learned was being fortunate enough to play in a division with a lot of offensive and defensive diversity. It seems like we were always going up against 1 or 2 Straight-T teams, 1 or 2 Double Wing teams, 2 or 3 Wing-T teams, 1 or 2 option teams, and 1 or 2 spread or pro zone teams offensively. Defensively, we also see a wide spectrum of things.
So, rather than playing in a league where everyone runs the Wing-T and the 4-4 (I did spend one year in a leage like that, when I was with the school I coached the JV team for), I've been lucky enough to be exposed to a lot of different philosophies and styles in terms of having to study our opponents.
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Post by airraider on Dec 4, 2007 11:40:49 GMT -6
I will echo coachD on time does not equate knowledge..
I know plenty of coaches who have been in the profession 30+ years, but couldnt coach their way out of a wet paper sack.. The game evolves.. but sometimes coaches do not..
I would much rather hire a guy with 3 years experience who has a solid grasp or natural gift for the game.. than a guy who has been in it 30 years but cannot grasp modern football.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 4, 2007 11:58:57 GMT -6
Lochness, might I add, should a school stumble on a great assistant, more often than not many feel threatened and this new coach is vastly underutilized.
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Post by cmow5 on Dec 4, 2007 12:14:16 GMT -6
Is there any thing wrong with a "fan with a whistle". I will be the first to admit I am one as of right now. I have one year coaching middle school and really no playing experience. I also think I am not the average fan with a whistle because I spend most of my time trying to learn the game, but still I would consider my self a fan with a whistle. One thing I found I was really good at this year was motivating and getting everything I could from the kids.
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Post by lochness on Dec 4, 2007 13:13:21 GMT -6
Lochness, might I add, should a school stumble on a great assistant, more often than not many feel threatened and this new coach is vastly underutilized. Coach, A few years ago, I may have never believed this...but I've seen examples of it and it is definitely sad.
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Post by lochness on Dec 4, 2007 13:19:30 GMT -6
Is there any thing wrong with a "fan with a whistle". I will be the first to admit I am one as of right now. I have one year coaching middle school and really no playing experience. I also think I am not the average fan with a whistle because I spend most of my time trying to learn the game, but still I would consider my self a fan with a whistle. One thing I found I was really good at this year was motivating and getting everything I could from the kids. Coach, "Fan with a Whistle" is more of a colorful phrase than a literal statement. It doesn't refer to experience level as much as it does to approach and attitude. The "fan with a whistle" is the guy who: 1. comes in to coaching meetings and suggests that you run the Colts offense because it "works really GOOD!" B. Contributes a halftime adjustment like "we need to throw the ball more!" or "we need to run outside!" or iii. Yells things during practice like "c'mon guys, tackle!!" ...it's basically BARELY a step above what you would expect to hear parents yelling at you from the stands. At least, that's the way I define it. It doesn't, in my mind refer to a "coach," which is why we call them fans with whistles. Based on what you've said here, I wouldn't worry about being put into that category. If you know enough to ask, you probably aint!!
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Post by coachorr on Dec 4, 2007 13:38:02 GMT -6
Essentially, I would say that the coach with a whistle is all about the what and has little to do with the how. For example, saying things like: "C'mon line blokc somebody" or "C'mon dline, you gotta get peneration!" or my all time favorite "You gotta want it!".
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Post by lochness on Dec 4, 2007 13:46:44 GMT -6
Essentially, I would say that the coach with a whistle is all about the what and has little to do with the how. For example, saying things like: "C'mon line blokc somebody" or "C'mon dline, you gotta get peneration!" or my all time favorite "You gotta want it!". Other favorites: "Just hit somebody!!" "Catch the ball!!!" "It's the jimmys and joes, not our x's and o's..." Some of the more advanced ones that I am also fond of (these guys watch a lot of NFL Network): "We're getting killed off-tackle!!" "They're trying to spread us out!!" "We should run the West Coast Offense." "Why can't we audible there? "
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 4, 2007 14:31:10 GMT -6
The posts about a school stumbling upon a "great" assistant (I assume new or young) and then under utilizing them sound very much like ME when I was a young assistant and I THOUGHT I knew it all. As a head who is ALWAYS looking for good assistants, I would LOVE to get a young, middle aged, or older assistant who wanted to coach and who KNEW how to coach! Enthusiasm without knowledge and perspective can be a dangerous thing. I have nothing against young or new coaches - but don't tell me you're ready to OC/DC without being able to show me something!
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Post by coachorr on Dec 4, 2007 14:55:18 GMT -6
I will go one further. Get a coach who coached for seven years at the bigger school and who was a master at the wing t and offensive line play. Who took kids who you never thought would play and made them into legit starters.
It's like survivor island, you never want to show all of your abilities early on in the game.
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Post by brophy on Dec 4, 2007 14:59:37 GMT -6
I will go one further. Get a coach who coached for seven years at the bigger school and who was a master at the wing t and offensive line play. Who took kids who you never thought would play and made them into legit starters. It's like survivor island, you never want to show all of your abilities early on in the game.
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