|
|
Post by blb on Jan 25, 2024 11:28:33 GMT -6
Hand-eye coordination (and CATCHING) is different than blocking-tackling. If a kid can't catch a thrown object, no amount of "Air Raid drills" is going to change that. I know from experience. Otherwise - why couldn't you make OL-types into Pass Catchers? Coaching doesn't cure everything. Okay I'm glad you agree. j/k When I became a HS HC I had been WR coach-Pass Offense Coordinator at a D-2 school that set all the school passing records and made it to Semi-Finals. I also coached at D-3 school that ran WCO and was in Top 20 nationally in passing. So i appreciated the passing game and knew how to practice-teach it. At four of the six schools I was HC we set the passing and-or receiving records at the time despite using a Run-Oriented offense. Nevertheless I had some kids who wanted to be WRs who despite all the time we spent on catching drills, routes on air, 7-on-7, etc. - Just could not catch a thrown football! And that was after two years of Freshman-JV ball doing same drills. The best passer I ever had (started as a D-2 QB) averaged a little over seven passes a game as a senior because our WRs were so undependable. Our passing game was really Draw and Screen. In fact we ran mostly 22 personnel because our second TE was better than our WRs. Hey, if you split a guy out and opponents don't have to defend him you might as well have an extra blocker at LOS. If you get entire corps of kids like that in a class or on your team (or worse that's what you get year after year) - Air Raid or similar probably is not a viable option if you want to score-win. |
|
|
|
Post by veerman on Jan 25, 2024 11:45:49 GMT -6
Winning solves everything!
I am currently at a school that has been predominantly spread with very few winning seasons. Couple of years ago we had a good group of Srs that were spread the previous years but struggles to win games. We had a huge QB with a rocket for an arm, but we just couldn't seem to get things going, threw tons of INTS and struggled up front pass blocking up front in the years. Their SR year we went to more SBV, we won the most games in school history, hosted the first playoff game in school history, won first playoff game in school history.
You have to evaluate your situation. Our school does not have the dynamic to win championships year in and year out. The best athletes in school play basketball and baseball, they are not interested in playing football cause nobody in their family grew up playing football (first Varsity season in school history was 2015) and parents are scared of baby getting hurt. We have success in those sports at times, but are not world beaters there either. A very successful coach said that there are 3 ways you can be successful. 1-Be better than everyone else. 2- Be different than everyone else. 3- Be both 1 & 2...
I've been at 8 different schools in my 21 years of coaching. (lived the coaches life lol) I've plays for state championships and have been 0-10. Been evolved with SBV,Flexbone, Pro I, Spread, Wing-t, SW...had success with all, and not so much with all. Schemes do not equal success!!! You do what you know the best and can coach the best. That will give your kids the best chance to be successful.
I think Coaches have fallen into the same trap that our society has fallen into on other issues. I'm not saying what's right and wrong, but just cause society tells me this is better doesn't always mean its better. BUT we go along with it cause we know it makes life easier.
|
|
|
|
Post by 60zgo on Jan 25, 2024 12:21:11 GMT -6
I'm glad you agree. j/k When I became a HS HC I had been WR coach-Pass Offense Coordinator at a D-2 school that set all the school passing records and made it to Semi-Finals. I also coached at D-3 school that ran WCO and was in Top 20 nationally in passing. So i appreciated the passing game and knew how to practice-teach it. At four of the six schools I was HC we set the passing and-or receiving records at the time despite using a Run-Oriented offense. Nevertheless I had some kids who wanted to be WRs who despite all the time we spent on catching drills, routes on air, 7-on-7, etc. - Just could not catch a thrown football! And that was after two years of Freshman-JV ball doing same drills. The best passer I ever had (started as a D-2 QB) averaged a little over seven passes a game as a senior because our WRs were so undependable. Our passing game was really Draw and Screen. In fact we ran mostly 22 personnel because our second TE was better than our WRs. Hey, if you split a guy out and opponents don't have to defend him you might as well have an extra blocker at LOS. If you get entire corps of kids like that in a class or on your team (or worse that's what you get year after year) - Air Raid or similar probably is not a viable option if you want to score-win. Again. "Okay". The cool thing about this board is it kinda encompasses all of Football in America. So your experiences and troubles are not mine. And vice versa. I have only coached in Texas and Louisiana. I guess our DNA is just better. We have had a bunch of DI kids over the years and we see DI kids every week. I am lucky enough that I have always been at places where the kids could be taught to catch and throw and run. I believe that skills can be acquired. I believe that coaching does make a difference. Again... The OP was about rebranding and the Single Wing. Which I have run with success. My suggestion was to look into the unbalanced spread single wing. |
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jan 25, 2024 12:23:53 GMT -6
This is 100% a real thing that a ton of coaches deal with. I was at a school that was a perennial avg to below avg team and was wing t... they had a year or 2 that was successful but mostly not. I had kids that I tried to recruit out of the halls tell me... "I am not gonna play on a team that just runs it up the middle every play... that's boring". I agree with other posts... WINNING solves all problems... but if you are a veer guy or a wing t guy trying to turn a program around, you better do it quickly and you will probably have to do it before those fringe kids come out and play for you. High school kids want to be recruited to play and like it or not a ton of them are playing simply to try to get scholarship and think they have to run a "college" or "pro" offense to have a chance to be seen. Is it the offense or is it the way that those coaches have traditionally practiced there scheme that boring? |
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jan 25, 2024 12:41:47 GMT -6
Again. "Okay". The cool thing about this board is it kinda encompasses all of Football in America. So your experiences and troubles are not mine. And vice versa. I have only coached in Texas and Louisiana. I guess our DNA is just better. We have had a bunch of DI kids over the years and we see DI kids every week. I am lucky enough that I have always been at places where the kids could be taught to catch and throw and run. I believe that skills can be acquired. I believe that coaching does make a difference. Again... The OP was about rebranding and the Single Wing. Which I have run with success. My suggestion was to look into the unbalanced spread single wing. Fair enough. Up here Jim Ahern at Ithaca and Lansing Catholic Central had great success with "Unbalanced Spread Single Wing." I will just add this: "in reality, you can't ask a kid to do something he's not capable of doing. If they don't have speed, if they can't bend their legs, they can't make the play. Talent can't be taught and athletes have differing degrees of talent." -- Former Ohio State coach Earle Bruce In other words, try as you might, coach-teach it, you can't get every kid to do everything.
Old saying: "You know what you call a WR a can't catch?
"A Defensive Back!" |
|
|
|
Post by irishdog on Jan 25, 2024 12:47:21 GMT -6
I was a football coach for 50 years, 8 years as a JC assistant, D3 assistant, and D2 DC. The other 42 years as a HS HC, DC, position coach at the varsity, JV, and freshman levels. I've coached the Wishbone, Trap Option, Wing-T, Straight-T, Double Wing, and Spread on offense, and the 5-2, 3-4, 4-3, 4-4, and 4-2. My niche as a HC was rebuilding failing programs. Gentlemen, let me just say I have seen it all, heard it all, and experienced it all.
Through those years of experience the one thing I learned from MANY outstanding coaches/mentors was no matter how much experience I gained from the game there was NO experience more valuable than what I learned from EACH experience. I used that no matter where I ended up, and I ended up in 5 different states because my wife was a damn good corporate accountant! I was just blessed and thankful to have found work getting paid for doing what I loved!
Each school was different. Each administration was different. Each school's alumni/boosters were different. Each school's students were different, making the athletes different from each school. My approach was to EVALUATE EVERYTHING FIRST. After that I did everything I could to employ the KISS philosophy in EVERYTHING it took to rebuild the entire program. This was especially true in what I decided to run on offense and defense. What would enhance my athletes talents, and not expose their weaknesses?
At the same time I would get the parents involved, BUT, they always knew what the expectations were from the get-go. KISS. We had a Parent/Coach Communication Plan, we had a Football Program Expectations Plan, and a Parent/Coach Expectations Plan WE all agreed to and signed. WE held each other responsible and accountable for the young men in our charge. I shared those documents first with the admin which were always approved before handing them out.
Typically our first year was spent building the foundation by learning how to compete both on and off the field, spent fortifying that foundation by learning how to win in the classroom and in life. The next year was spent reinforcing that foundation by establishing a winning Spirit (not the rah-rah type; the Holy Spirit type). After that the sky was the limit. Always kept it simple. Never over-analyzed. Made it tough, but fun. Won games, lost games, won championships, lost championships, but always did what I could to win hearts.
|
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jan 25, 2024 13:05:34 GMT -6
I've never been a HC or OC so I never had a choice what offense to run. Nobody seems to worry what kind of defense you run as long as it works so I had that going for me, which is nice. I have some thoughts on this issue.
You have to run a system that allows you to be successful. If you're running a run-heavy, tight formation offense like single-wing, etc. and you're winning and have good numbers, fine. If the number of players and wins are going down you probably do need to open things up some. I don't see that as kow-towing to fans. It's just adjusting for the good of the program.
I'll also take exception to using the term "selfish" for kids that don't want to play in a "3 yards and a cloud of dust" offense. Football's a game. It's supposed to be fun. If they don't consider double-teaming a 5 tech fun then that's just the way it is. In my day if you wanted to play a sport in the fall you played football. Nowadays they have options.
So if your system, whether it's single wing or run-and-shoot, isn't working where you are you may need to rebrand.
|
|
|
|
Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 25, 2024 13:35:47 GMT -6
This is 100% a real thing that a ton of coaches deal with. I was at a school that was a perennial avg to below avg team and was wing t... they had a year or 2 that was successful but mostly not. I had kids that I tried to recruit out of the halls tell me... "I am not gonna play on a team that just runs it up the middle every play... that's boring". I agree with other posts... WINNING solves all problems... but if you are a veer guy or a wing t guy trying to turn a program around, you better do it quickly and you will probably have to do it before those fringe kids come out and play for you. High school kids want to be recruited to play and like it or not a ton of them are playing simply to try to get scholarship and think they have to run a "college" or "pro" offense to have a chance to be seen. Is it the offense or is it the way that those coaches have traditionally practiced there scheme that boring? Not the offense at all. While I am not a lover of the wing t ... i have seen it ben super dynamic at some schools. but usually those dynamic teams were bc of the jimmies & joes... although some places have ran it at a high level and been fun to watch that I have seen. This place was seen as boring bc they were not very successful and continued beating head against the wall. The current coach has a 35% winning percentage and has been there almost 20 years. They practice the same way they always have and call the same plays over and over. We had several basketball & baseball guys tell me that they didn't wanna play and just block all night... they wanted at least a chance to catch the ball. So I guess a combo of practice and games to answer your question. |
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jan 25, 2024 16:30:51 GMT -6
Is it the offense or is it the way that those coaches have traditionally practiced there scheme that boring? Not the offense at all. While I am not a lover of the wing t ... i have seen it ben super dynamic at some schools. but usually those dynamic teams were bc of the jimmies & joes... although some places have ran it at a high level and been fun to watch that I have seen. This place was seen as boring bc they were not very successful and continued beating head against the wall. The current coach has a 35% winning percentage and has been there almost 20 years. They practice the same way they always have and call the same plays over and over. We had several basketball & baseball guys tell me that they didn't wanna play and just block all night... they wanted at least a chance to catch the ball. So I guess a combo of practice and games to answer your question. Yeah I feel like “old school” offenses get that bad wrap because the dudes running it move slow during practice and they tend to be drawn out and boring |
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 25, 2024 16:32:45 GMT -6
Winning solves everything! As I mentioned before, “Winning” does not solve everything. It should, but it does not. Out of our current sophomores (which is our most athletic class in the building by far) we have 6 of the 11 best athletes out for football. All of them played in junior high and EVERY YEAR when these kids were in junior high, they all traveled across the state to watch us play in the state championship game. Nearly half of them do not play now because they are going to the NBA or NHL or MLB… or because there are expectations in our program (much the same as the rest of you have), whatever the excuse may be. Our current 8th grade is a similar class to our sophomores- but if we don’t get most of them out, there is a chance that football dies here. A school/town very similar to ours (just on the other side of the river) no longer plays football. They co-op with a “neighboring town” (55 miles away). Another one, slightly larger than us, did not play for two years. They are slowly on the path back to recovery… but it’s like watching SMU after the death penalty. Here is the breakdown for next year re: returning players: (Next year’s) Seniors – 5 players. 3 who started the season ineligible. 3 of them were 2 way starters, the other two got a lot better and may help in 2024. Juniors (the sophomore class referenced above) 6 players. All starters (really 5 and an emergency defensive starter by week 3… undersized and slow DB).
Freshmen – 3 players One starter, one who played some, one just on KOR. Every one of the above was on a special team somewhere.
We played one 9-man JV jamboree. We had all our freshmen, two foreign exchange students, the two junior non-starters and two seniors who were in their first year of playing football (one of them started the last game when it came down to him or our Italian student). If my math is right, that’s 14 players. We are not 6man, 8 man or 9 man. We are 11 man. As we all know, there are down classes… we’ve just never had this many jammed together and have never had so few multi-sport athletes. The above is my reason for starting this thread in the first place. I appreciate the suggestions like 60zgo to run a spread single wing… but after 18 years in this offense we’ve done it all (2 SE balanced, 1 TE balanced/unbalanced, 2 TE unbalanced…). I’ve been a SW kool-aid drinker for a long time and have used many variations. In 2012 we averaged around 200 yds. a game passing. In 2022 we didn’t attempt a pass for 3 weeks in a row during October. Both those years we made the semi-finals. You do what best fits your personnel within your system; that is one of my core philosophies. I like the “Single Wing” (which is a pretty generic term anyway… like “spread”) BECAUSE it is so adaptable (more so than our Wishbone was… no offense to that offense because I still love that as well). As far as the original question- I only posed this question to see the angles I wasn’t seeing/looking for. Being on here is like being at the social at the clinic (minus the beer and wings)- most of my “thoughts” I would only share with coaches. You are the only ones who “know”. There are many on here whose thoughts and commentary I truly appreciate/value. I don’t always agree… but sometimes I need to hear the contrary to my position. It makes me a better coach. When all is said and done, I really don’t think I was asking the right question… but it is one that crossed my mind more than once after the worst season we’ve had in over 20 years.
|
|
|
|
Post by irishdog on Jan 25, 2024 17:31:13 GMT -6
Winning solves everything! As I mentioned before, “Winning” does not solve everything. It should, but it does not. Out of our current sophomores (which is our most athletic class in the building by far) we have 6 of the 11 best athletes out for football. All of them played in junior high and EVERY YEAR when these kids were in junior high, they all traveled across the state to watch us play in the state championship game. Nearly half of them do not play now because they are going to the NBA or NHL or MLB… or because there are expectations in our program (much the same as the rest of you have), whatever the excuse may be. Our current 8th grade is a similar class to our sophomores- but if we don’t get most of them out, there is a chance that football dies here. A school/town very similar to ours (just on the other side of the river) no longer plays football. They co-op with a “neighboring town” (55 miles away). Another one, slightly larger than us, did not play for two years. They are slowly on the path back to recovery… but it’s like watching SMU after the death penalty. Here is the breakdown for next year re: returning players: (Next year’s) Seniors – 5 players. 3 who started the season ineligible. 3 of them were 2 way starters, the other two got a lot better and may help in 2024. Juniors (the sophomore class referenced above) 6 players. All starters (really 5 and an emergency defensive starter by week 3… undersized and slow DB).
Freshmen – 3 players One starter, one who played some, one just on KOR. Every one of the above was on a special team somewhere.
We played one 9-man JV jamboree. We had all our freshmen, two foreign exchange students, the two junior non-starters and two seniors who were in their first year of playing football (one of them started the last game when it came down to him or our Italian student). If my math is right, that’s 14 players. We are not 6man, 8 man or 9 man. We are 11 man. As we all know, there are down classes… we’ve just never had this many jammed together and have never had so few multi-sport athletes. The above is my reason for starting this thread in the first place. I appreciate the suggestions like 60zgo to run a spread single wing… but after 18 years in this offense we’ve done it all (2 SE balanced, 1 TE balanced/unbalanced, 2 TE unbalanced…). I’ve been a SW kool-aid drinker for a long time and have used many variations. In 2012 we averaged around 200 yds. a game passing. In 2022 we didn’t attempt a pass for 3 weeks in a row during October. Both those years we made the semi-finals. You do what best fits your personnel within your system; that is one of my core philosophies. I like the “Single Wing” (which is a pretty generic term anyway… like “spread”) BECAUSE it is so adaptable (more so than our Wishbone was… no offense to that offense because I still love that as well). As far as the original question- I only posed this question to see the angles I wasn’t seeing/looking for. Being on here is like being at the social at the clinic (minus the beer and wings)- most of my “thoughts” I would only share with coaches. You are the only ones who “know”. There are many on here whose thoughts and commentary I truly appreciate/value. I don’t always agree… but sometimes I need to hear the contrary to my position. It makes me a better coach. When all is said and done, I really don’t think I was asking the right question… but it is one that crossed my mind more than once after the worst season we’ve had in over 20 years.
I truly sympathize with you coach. 14? 11 man? Wow. As I mentioned in my original post on this topic EVALUATION of the entire program is a must. It has nothing to do with "branding" what you do on the field. Your school's "re-branding" for the future involves a helluva lot more than that. It has everything to do with RE-EVALUATING the state of the program. What is missing from what made it work in the past? Is it community driven? Enrollment driven? Are low participation numbers driven by the first two questions? Are the participation numbers driven by current sports norms? Are the participation numbers driven by current societal norms? Those questions must be answered honestly, and sometimes, whether we want to hear them or not, are not the answers we like. How then do we go about changing the current environment? How do we encourage the athletes to play the game of football? How do we show and prove to parents that the game has never been safer? How do we convince the athletes, the parents, and yes...even the other sports coaches that strength training is good for ALL sports? How do we come up with efficient and effective practice methods, schedules, and coaching? How do we connect with the athletes and parents to convince them of the advantages in playing multiple sports including football? These are the tough questions in the evaluation process that will help determine the future of the program. |
|
|
|
Post by CS on Jan 25, 2024 18:01:26 GMT -6
Winning solves everything! As I mentioned before, “Winning” does not solve everything. It should, but it does not. Out of our current sophomores (which is our most athletic class in the building by far) we have 6 of the 11 best athletes out for football. All of them played in junior high and EVERY YEAR when these kids were in junior high, they all traveled across the state to watch us play in the state championship game. Nearly half of them do not play now because they are going to the NBA or NHL or MLB… or because there are expectations in our program (much the same as the rest of you have), whatever the excuse may be. Our current 8th grade is a similar class to our sophomores- but if we don’t get most of them out, there is a chance that football dies here. A school/town very similar to ours (just on the other side of the river) no longer plays football. They co-op with a “neighboring town” (55 miles away). Another one, slightly larger than us, did not play for two years. They are slowly on the path back to recovery… but it’s like watching SMU after the death penalty. Here is the breakdown for next year re: returning players: (Next year’s) Seniors – 5 players. 3 who started the season ineligible. 3 of them were 2 way starters, the other two got a lot better and may help in 2024. Juniors (the sophomore class referenced above) 6 players. All starters (really 5 and an emergency defensive starter by week 3… undersized and slow DB).
Freshmen – 3 players One starter, one who played some, one just on KOR. Every one of the above was on a special team somewhere.
We played one 9-man JV jamboree. We had all our freshmen, two foreign exchange students, the two junior non-starters and two seniors who were in their first year of playing football (one of them started the last game when it came down to him or our Italian student). If my math is right, that’s 14 players. We are not 6man, 8 man or 9 man. We are 11 man. As we all know, there are down classes… we’ve just never had this many jammed together and have never had so few multi-sport athletes. The above is my reason for starting this thread in the first place. I appreciate the suggestions like 60zgo to run a spread single wing… but after 18 years in this offense we’ve done it all (2 SE balanced, 1 TE balanced/unbalanced, 2 TE unbalanced…). I’ve been a SW kool-aid drinker for a long time and have used many variations. In 2012 we averaged around 200 yds. a game passing. In 2022 we didn’t attempt a pass for 3 weeks in a row during October. Both those years we made the semi-finals. You do what best fits your personnel within your system; that is one of my core philosophies. I like the “Single Wing” (which is a pretty generic term anyway… like “spread”) BECAUSE it is so adaptable (more so than our Wishbone was… no offense to that offense because I still love that as well). As far as the original question- I only posed this question to see the angles I wasn’t seeing/looking for. Being on here is like being at the social at the clinic (minus the beer and wings)- most of my “thoughts” I would only share with coaches. You are the only ones who “know”. There are many on here whose thoughts and commentary I truly appreciate/value. I don’t always agree… but sometimes I need to hear the contrary to my position. It makes me a better coach. When all is said and done, I really don’t think I was asking the right question… but it is one that crossed my mind more than once after the worst season we’ve had in over 20 years.
Is going 8 man a possibility until numbers improve? |
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 25, 2024 18:14:21 GMT -6
I truly sympathize with you coach. 14? 11 man? Wow. As I mentioned in my original post on this topic EVALUATION of the entire program is a must. It has nothing to do with "branding" what you do on the field. Your school's "re-branding" for the future involves a helluva lot more than that. It has everything to do with RE-EVALUATING the state of the program. What is missing from what made it work in the past? Is it community driven? Enrollment driven? Are low participation numbers driven by the first two questions? Are the participation numbers driven by current sports norms? Are the participation numbers driven by current societal norms? Those questions must be answered honestly, and sometimes, whether we want to hear them or not, are not the answers we like. How then do we go about changing the current environment? How do we encourage the athletes to play the game of football? How do we show and prove to parents that the game has never been safer? How do we convince the athletes, the parents, and yes...even the other sports coaches that strength training is good for ALL sports? How do we come up with efficient and effective practice methods, schedules, and coaching? How do we connect with the athletes and parents to convince them of the advantages in playing multiple sports including football? These are the tough questions in the evaluation process that will help determine the future of the program.
I agree on re-evaluating. Thus my creating a thread (which I don't do very often). I am also looking at the ways I just didn't do as much or as well as I may have in past years. There are certainly some things I can improve on, for sure.
In focusing on your last paragraph... we've tried to show the advantages of multiple sports. We seem to be preaching to the ones who already buy in... we'll keep trying.
This isn't just a football thing here. Our basketball program is good. We finished 3rd in state last year (we play out our state tournament... I know some states do not). However, if we didn't bring up 8th graders to the high school program this year we would not have enough for a C team, and we would be playing JV with about 6-7 guys (including varsity bench warmers). We are in the middle class (of 3) in basketball. Three years ago, our BB team had to cut players and ZERO jh kids moved up. Now, if you have a pulse you'll at least be in the layup line during pregame.
The general attitude of our guys and their parents (girls too, really) is not at all conducive to having sustained success in anything at our school.
Ever since AAU/Club sports have entered in to the picture (we are about 20 years behind the rest of the country) we have seen a severe drop in EVERYTHING.
If a guy plays hockey (on one of the worst HS teams in our state, mind you), there is a good chance that he will play in some developmental fall "elite level 7" hockey tournaments in the fall and quit football (we lost two to this; one MIGHT play after H.S.) If a guy averages 7 ppg. in basketball and is convinced by his AAU coach that he can get a scholarship if he devotes time, effort (and money) to his AAU travel team, he will quit track to do that in the spring (and we have one athlete in particular who did exactly that. He could get a scholarship for track... he was in the top 5 in the state in all jumping events when he quit track mid year to focus on basketball. At best he will play on a JV NAIA team. Yes, apparently we have those here).
Add in classes with many non-athletes to begin with and we are in serious trouble.
I agree that these questions need to be answered honestly... but I don't have any real answers... other than our student population is mostly made up of slugs who do nothing, and the others are so delusional that they aren't willing to see that what (some) coaches are telling them is better for them in the long run.
Though it was a long time ago, I remember knowing everything as a 16 year old as well. I'm just trying to recall what my parents and coaches did to convince me otherwise... and sort through what would be legal now or not.
|
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 25, 2024 18:20:09 GMT -6
Is going 8 man a possibility until numbers improve? We have 9 man... but no.
In December there were 10-11 schools that applied for opting down (if I recall correctly). I think 2 were approved.
We aren't even eligible because we have these "success points" that go back 4 years.
Going in to last year, we were on the borderline of actually being moved up a class.
It's an odd system here. Not without some merits...but odd.
I wouldn't mind 9 man though... In 11 man- if we are lucky enough to have 20 players we'll have about 26 different jersey numbers. At least we could do away with that.
|
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jan 25, 2024 18:45:32 GMT -6
To add to the comment about diversity of talent from place to place- I coached for 20 years in schools from 1A to 4A in Illinois. I never coached a D1 football player. I never coached a FCS player. As a HC I only had 1 kid play more than 1 year of D3 and two play some on D2. I think I only coached against 7 D1 kids.
|
|
|
|
Post by veerman on Jan 26, 2024 8:48:05 GMT -6
Winning solves everything! As I mentioned before, “Winning” does not solve everything. It should, but it does not. Out of our current sophomores (which is our most athletic class in the building by far) we have 6 of the 11 best athletes out for football. All of them played in junior high and EVERY YEAR when these kids were in junior high, they all traveled across the state to watch us play in the state championship game. Nearly half of them do not play now because they are going to the NBA or NHL or MLB… or because there are expectations in our program (much the same as the rest of you have), whatever the excuse may be. Our current 8th grade is a similar class to our sophomores- but if we don’t get most of them out, there is a chance that football dies here. A school/town very similar to ours (just on the other side of the river) no longer plays football. They co-op with a “neighboring town” (55 miles away). Another one, slightly larger than us, did not play for two years. They are slowly on the path back to recovery… but it’s like watching SMU after the death penalty. Here is the breakdown for next year re: returning players: (Next year’s) Seniors – 5 players. 3 who started the season ineligible. 3 of them were 2 way starters, the other two got a lot better and may help in 2024. Juniors (the sophomore class referenced above) 6 players. All starters (really 5 and an emergency defensive starter by week 3… undersized and slow DB).
Freshmen – 3 players One starter, one who played some, one just on KOR. Every one of the above was on a special team somewhere.
We played one 9-man JV jamboree. We had all our freshmen, two foreign exchange students, the two junior non-starters and two seniors who were in their first year of playing football (one of them started the last game when it came down to him or our Italian student). If my math is right, that’s 14 players. We are not 6man, 8 man or 9 man. We are 11 man. As we all know, there are down classes… we’ve just never had this many jammed together and have never had so few multi-sport athletes. The above is my reason for starting this thread in the first place. I appreciate the suggestions like 60zgo to run a spread single wing… but after 18 years in this offense we’ve done it all (2 SE balanced, 1 TE balanced/unbalanced, 2 TE unbalanced…). I’ve been a SW kool-aid drinker for a long time and have used many variations. In 2012 we averaged around 200 yds. a game passing. In 2022 we didn’t attempt a pass for 3 weeks in a row during October. Both those years we made the semi-finals. You do what best fits your personnel within your system; that is one of my core philosophies. I like the “Single Wing” (which is a pretty generic term anyway… like “spread”) BECAUSE it is so adaptable (more so than our Wishbone was… no offense to that offense because I still love that as well). As far as the original question- I only posed this question to see the angles I wasn’t seeing/looking for. Being on here is like being at the social at the clinic (minus the beer and wings)- most of my “thoughts” I would only share with coaches. You are the only ones who “know”. There are many on here whose thoughts and commentary I truly appreciate/value. I don’t always agree… but sometimes I need to hear the contrary to my position. It makes me a better coach. When all is said and done, I really don’t think I was asking the right question… but it is one that crossed my mind more than once after the worst season we’ve had in over 20 years.
Yeah I agree with you there then. Sorry for your troubles in your situatiation. To be honest though your troubles have Nothing to do with your scheme, your trouble lies MUCH MUCH DEEPER, and changing a scheme offensively or defensively is not going to fix your problem IMO. I hate to say it but you may need to look deeper into what you can provide the kids with more. Maybe the best "swag gear" you can get with clothes, backpacks, anything you can think of. This sometimes is a lot tougher depending on financial situations. Kids LOVE gear, so that maybe something to increase interest in participation. If they knew they were getting a new backpack, sweats, shorts, tops, jackets and all that, they maybe more likely to come out. Wish you the best, and keep us updated on how things turn out. |
|
|
|
Post by CanyonCoach on Jan 26, 2024 9:52:18 GMT -6
Having hired one former coach and one former player from the Senators program I can say that what those 2 have brought to our program has been a huge boost.
Getting multi sport athletes is an AD/ admin mindset that needs to be pushed.
|
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jan 26, 2024 10:36:55 GMT -6
I have only coached in Texas and Louisiana. I guess our DNA is just better. We have had a bunch of DI kids over the years and we see DI kids every week. I am lucky enough that I have always been at places where the kids could be taught to catch and throw and run. There may be something to that. We don't have Spring Football up here like you do. The PE programs including at K-8 have been drastically reduced over the years. Ice Hockey is big and Lacrosse is growing fast. So even if they play Football too they spend a lot of time playing sports that don't involve throwing or catching a ball of any kind (except maybe with a stick and net). Also similar to larrymoe I never had a D-I player and faced only a handful in my 31 years as a HC. |
|
|
|
Post by veerman on Jan 26, 2024 10:55:52 GMT -6
I have only coached in Texas and Louisiana. I guess our DNA is just better. We have had a bunch of DI kids over the years and we see DI kids every week. I am lucky enough that I have always been at places where the kids could be taught to catch and throw and run. There may be something to that. We don't have Spring Football up here like you do. The PE programs including at K-8 have been drastically reduced over the years. Ice Hockey is big and Lacrosse is growing fast. So even if they play Football too they spend a lot of time playing sports that don't involve throwing or catching a ball of any kind. Also similar to larrymoe I never had a D-I player and faced only a handful in my 31 years as a HC. I have coached 2 D1 kids in my 21 years, and a BUNCH that would not even start for 60zgo's Freshman teams as a Sr it sounds like lol. Have coached plenty of kids (skill kids) that could not catch a cold standing in the middle of Antarctica. |
|
|
|
Post by sweep26 on Jan 26, 2024 11:43:50 GMT -6
The situation that senatorblutarsky is facing isn't just happening to him and his program...it is happening in some shape or form in nearly every section of our country. I have been studying this problem for the last 2 years. Trying to figure out why this happens in some schools, and not in others. I may be wrong, but in many instances there seems to be one or more missing links in Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs...two of the big ones are: a genuine sense of "Connection"...and "Self-Confidence/Self-Efficacy" |
|
|
|
Post by 60zgo on Jan 26, 2024 12:47:07 GMT -6
There may be something to that. We don't have Spring Football up here like you do. The PE programs including at K-8 have been drastically reduced over the years. Ice Hockey is big and Lacrosse is growing fast. So even if they play Football too they spend a lot of time playing sports that don't involve throwing or catching a ball of any kind. Also similar to larrymoe I never had a D-I player and faced only a handful in my 31 years as a HC. I have coached 2 D1 kids in my 21 years, and a BUNCH that would not even start for 60zgo's Freshman teams as a Sr it sounds like lol. Have coached plenty of kids (skill kids) that could not catch a cold standing in the middle of Antarctica. There is this little class A school about twenty minutes away. Maybe 150 kids in the whole school. 20-25 kids in football. Every single year they have a DI. Every few years they have a SEC kid and they have had two kids play in the NFL. It's pretty wild. Our league champion this year had a LSU signee and we didn't think he was the best player on their team.... South Louisiana/Southern Mississippi is talent bonkers. But systems make a difference too. So if I'm the HFC and I'm in charge of the Middle School AND I'm in charge of 6-12 PE I've got a huge advantage as far as teaching skills. I'm not blind to how lucky we are. |
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 26, 2024 12:56:48 GMT -6
The situation that senatorblutarsky is facing isn't just happening to him and his program...it is happening in some shape or form in nearly every section of our country. I have been studying this problem for the last 2 years. Trying to figure out why this happens in some schools, and not in others. I may be wrong, but in many instances there seems to be one or more missing links in Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs...two of the big ones are: a genuine sense of "Connection"...and "Self-Confidence/Self-Efficacy" Good point. I won't disagree with that at all. But... The unusual thing (perhaps NOT unusual) is almost half of our tiny roster is made up of kids from very broken homes. Kids living with Grandma, living with an uncle, living at a friend's house... They are the ones flourishing the most in our program. Maybe we provide the family they don't have while the others "don't need" that family and would just rather play another sport (or video games), or have jobs so they can buy anything oversized and loud for their pickups... |
|
|
|
Post by veerman on Jan 26, 2024 13:28:39 GMT -6
I have coached 2 D1 kids in my 21 years, and a BUNCH that would not even start for 60zgo's Freshman teams as a Sr it sounds like lol. Have coached plenty of kids (skill kids) that could not catch a cold standing in the middle of Antarctica. There is this little class A school about twenty minutes away. Maybe 150 kids in the whole school. 20-25 kids in football. Every single year they have a DI. Every few years they have a SEC kid and they have had two kids play in the NFL. It's pretty wild. Our league champion this year had a LSU signee and we didn't think he was the best player on their team.... South Louisiana/Southern Mississippi is talent bonkers. But systems make a difference too. So if I'm the HFC and I'm in charge of the Middle School AND I'm in charge of 6-12 PE I've got a huge advantage as far as teaching skills. I'm not blind to how lucky we are. Yeah definitely lucky with talent pool. Then again with that much talent walking around I'm sure you have problems that you have to deal with that guys like me don't have to. |
|
|
|
Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 26, 2024 14:07:23 GMT -6
The situation that senatorblutarsky is facing isn't just happening to him and his program...it is happening in some shape or form in nearly every section of our country. I have been studying this problem for the last 2 years. Trying to figure out why this happens in some schools, and not in others. I may be wrong, but in many instances there seems to be one or more missing links in Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs...two of the big ones are: a genuine sense of "Connection"...and "Self-Confidence/Self-Efficacy" Good point. I won't disagree with that at all. But... The unusual thing (perhaps NOT unusual) is almost half of our tiny roster is made up of kids from very broken homes. Kids living with Grandma, living with an uncle, living at a friend's house... They are the ones flourishing the most in our program. Maybe we provide the family they don't have while the others "don't need" that family and would just rather play another sport (or video games), or have jobs so they can buy anything oversized and loud for their pickups... I have been very involved in the youth league of baseball basketball and football over the last 20 years... I have seen this in my area as well... Our youth football is made up of mainly lower income or broken homes... Not 100% but high %... Richer families tend to navigate toward baseball and basketball. I personally believe it coincides with the softening of America lol but I digress... I agree with others you have a whole set of problems. Scheme may be their excuse but I feel its deeper or more than that. |
|
|
|
Post by coachwoodall on Jan 26, 2024 14:49:31 GMT -6
Good point. I won't disagree with that at all. But... The unusual thing (perhaps NOT unusual) is almost half of our tiny roster is made up of kids from very broken homes. Kids living with Grandma, living with an uncle, living at a friend's house... They are the ones flourishing the most in our program. Maybe we provide the family they don't have while the others "don't need" that family and would just rather play another sport (or video games), or have jobs so they can buy anything oversized and loud for their pickups... I have been very involved in the youth league of baseball basketball and football over the last 20 years... I have seen this in my area as well... Our youth football is made up of mainly lower income or broken homes... Not 100% but high %... Richer families tend to navigate toward baseball and basketball. I personally believe it coincides with the softening of America lol but I digress... I agree with others you have a whole set of problems. Scheme may be their excuse but I feel its deeper or more than that. I would venture that it is the travel ball component of those sports that lead to the upper income families being the majority of those sport's players. But what is funny, the amount of money that parents pay for travel baseball from 8 YO up to HS, if saved and invested would more than cover any 1/12 - 1/8 scholly their kid MIGHT earn. Heck put that money into tutoring and SAT prep would probably get you more money. But hey, it's their money. |
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 26, 2024 14:51:50 GMT -6
Having hired one former coach and one former player from the Senators program I can say that what those 2 have brought to our program has been a huge boost. Getting multi sport athletes is an AD/ admin mindset that needs to be pushed. I appreciate the positive endorsement.
We do have a lot of issues now. Poor leadership (within the student population), what I would call a fractured athletic department (kind of an "every man for himself" attitude... we were all on board going the same direction for years. But staff turnover/inability or unwillingness to hire teachers who coach has had an impact), and just a very down cycle of talent/kids interested in sports.
I hate to give too many props to our former coach who is with you now (not that he doesn't deserve it... just because it will go to his head  ), but it was great having him as our baseball coach. He understood we all worked together (and he was a football guy... that helped too).
Since you are here in the state, you also know this- we are a small school that thinks we are a lot bigger than we are. We offer every damn activity and sport that we can and while it is great that kids have opportunities, we dilute the talent pool even more. Seriously, we've won something like 4 hockey games in 8 years. There is no way we belong in the WDA... most teams play us with their JV and still win by 7 or 8.
Don't get me started on trap shooting... we lost a guy to that as well (he need to focus on that  ).
If our state ever gets lacrosse I am sure we'll want a program.
|
|
|
|
Post by tripsclosed on Jan 26, 2024 15:05:21 GMT -6
This is 100% a real thing that a ton of coaches deal with. I was at a school that was a perennial avg to below avg team and was wing t... they had a year or 2 that was successful but mostly not. I had kids that I tried to recruit out of the halls tell me... "I am not gonna play on a team that just runs it up the middle every play... that's boring". I agree with other posts... WINNING solves all problems... but if you are a veer guy or a wing t guy trying to turn a program around, you better do it quickly and you will probably have to do it before those fringe kids come out and play for you. High school kids want to be recruited to play and like it or not a ton of them are playing simply to try to get scholarship and think they have to run a "college" or "pro" offense to have a chance to be seen.
An old coaching buddy of mine is a DW guy. He took over a mediocre program two years ago and kicked over to the Gun DW/Single Wing as he knew he'd get push back over the DW. He took the team to the playoffs for the first time in awhile. The program had been based out of the I-formation previously and he told me that kids thanked him for running a more "modern offense." Some might call it rebranding but, IMO, it was a lateral move that solved problems.
That's fkn hilarious. Like, literally moving the QB back 4 to 5 yards, and that somehow makes it a modern offense |
|
|
|
Post by hlb2 on Jan 26, 2024 15:32:39 GMT -6
How do we convince the athletes, the parents, and yes...even the other sports coaches that strength training is good for ALL sports? This could be an entirely separate thread, or the title of a best selling coaching book. Either way I'd be all ears on how you do this. It's one hill I die on every year... |
|
|
|
Post by larrymoe on Jan 26, 2024 16:13:34 GMT -6
How do we convince the athletes, the parents, and yes...even the other sports coaches that strength training is good for ALL sports? This could be an entirely separate thread, or the title of a best selling coaching book. Either way I'd be all ears on how you do this. It's one hill I die on every year... In my experience, you got to start with their coaches. It's amazing to me how many basketball coaches still active like lifting weights will "mess up their shot". |
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Jan 26, 2024 16:57:33 GMT -6
This could be an entirely separate thread, or the title of a best selling coaching book. Either way I'd be all ears on how you do this. It's one hill I die on every year... In my experience, you got to start with their coaches. It's amazing to me how many basketball coaches still active like lifting weights will "mess up their shot". We had this for a LONG time here. When I first came here, all sport coaches met and I showed them what I was planning with weights class. Eventually, evrerybody was on board. Surprisingly, hockey had the most resistence, butn they came around. At one point we had about 80% of our student population in weights classes. Now we are around 35%. With the exception of boys basketball and possibly softball (we'll see this year), we are all quite a bit down from before. I know I had a lot of current seniors and juniors in other sports drop weights this year. The new coaches don't push it, and the excuse from the kids is there are "too many expectations" (like dress out, get a workout in... and my favorite "it's always my lowest grade" or "I always have to dress out even when I am dressed up"). Every other sport has all new coaches since that meeting in 2012... some are on board (basketball for the most part, track) some are to a point (baseball, hockey, wrestling), but not like it was. I've said many times we need another meeting to discuss our vision as an ATHLETIC program... (I noticed it some at the midway point of last year... but it wasn't as critical in my mind because in football we were still good. I was a little short sighted... I should've seen this coming, but I do see it now). IF I stay here I will initiate one this spring... but I'm not sure how many coaches will even show up if it isn't reenforced by our administration (and I am no longer in admin... haven't been an AD since my last job 12 years ago). |
|
), but it was great having him as our baseball coach. He understood we all worked together (and he was a football guy... that helped too).
).