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Post by tothehouse on Oct 9, 2023 13:36:34 GMT -6
Help an old coach out. I'm pretty good at the rules...but this one...I need clarified.
Our team was attempting to BLOCK a field goal (not a PAT).
Here is the order of what happened.
1. Ball snapped and kicked
2. Ball is blocked.
3. Ball lands in the hands of one of my players about 8 yards down the field past the LOS.
4. As soon as the ball hits my players hands...an inadvertent whistle blows.
After the commotion that I bring up because we should be allowed to return it.
The referees tell me that since it is an inadvertent whistle the offensive team gets to "decide what they want to do". In this case...attempt to kick another field goal.
I think this is total BS. Anyone help me out here?
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Post by blb on Oct 9, 2023 14:51:24 GMT -6
Help an old coach out. I'm pretty good at the rules...but this one...I need clarified. Our team was attempting to BLOCK a field goal (not a PAT). Here is the order of what happened. 1. Ball snapped and kicked 2. Ball is blocked. 3. Ball lands in the hands of one of my players about 8 yards down the field past the LOS. 4. As soon as the ball hits my players hands...an inadvertent whistle blows. After the commotion that I bring up because we should be allowed to return it. The referees tell me that since it is an inadvertent whistle the offensive team gets to "decide what they want to do". In this case...attempt to kick another field goal. I think this is total BS. Anyone help me out here? I believe it is total BS but @reffla will clarify I'm sure. |
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Oct 9, 2023 14:52:49 GMT -6
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Post by larrymoe on Oct 9, 2023 14:52:49 GMT -6
I was under the impression that a blocked FG was a dead play after it crossed the LOS, but that's not an option in this scenario.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 9, 2023 14:57:44 GMT -6
I was under the impression that a blocked FG was a dead play after it crossed the LOS, but that's not an option in this scenario. A blocked PAT is immediately dead. A blocked FG that passes the LOS can be returned like a punt. This ball literally fluttered into our player's hands. He started to run...."beeerrrpppeeep"...whistle. Everyone stops. Definitely and inadvertent whistle...but the ruling was extremely bogus. |
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Post by fantom on Oct 9, 2023 15:13:46 GMT -6
Help an old coach out. I'm pretty good at the rules...but this one...I need clarified. Our team was attempting to BLOCK a field goal (not a PAT). Here is the order of what happened. 1. Ball snapped and kicked 2. Ball is blocked. 3. Ball lands in the hands of one of my players about 8 yards down the field past the LOS. 4. As soon as the ball hits my players hands...an inadvertent whistle blows. After the commotion that I bring up because we should be allowed to return it. The referees tell me that since it is an inadvertent whistle the offensive team gets to "decide what they want to do". In this case...attempt to kick another field goal. I think this is total BS. Anyone help me out here? I believe it is total BS but @reffla will clarify I'm sure. Reffla may contradict me but I think that the team who has the ball when the whistle blows has the choice. |
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 9, 2023 15:18:29 GMT -6
That's what I was arguing...to no avail.
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Oct 9, 2023 16:36:50 GMT -6
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Post by freezeoption on Oct 9, 2023 16:36:50 GMT -6
Yes they f up. Should be a return.
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Post by 19delta on Oct 9, 2023 16:47:45 GMT -6
Serious question...when things like this happen, why doesn't the crew chief just look it up? Yes, I know it might take some time. But, isn't that better than guessing or winging it and then getting it wrong?
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Post by 19delta on Oct 9, 2023 16:56:20 GMT -6
Without knowing the actual ruling, I think they blew it. If your player recovered the ball and then the whistle blew, I would think that, at the very least, you should have possession of the ball at the point your player recovered it. The inadvertent whistle would simply negate everything after your player recovered the ball.
Many, many years ago, I was coaching in a game in which there was an inadvertent whistle after an INT. Kid picked off the pass and one of the officials had a brain fart and blew his whistle immediately. In that case, the decision was to award possession to the intercepting team at the spot of the interception (or as close as it could be determined).
Was that the correct decision?
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Oct 9, 2023 19:17:31 GMT -6
I think this is total BS. Anyone help me out here? Well... hate to say, but it is total B.S.... and that was the right ruling after a mistake by the officials. In this case, both are true (you got screwed because some rules are dumb). We've had far too many inadvertent whistles in my day, so I was pretty sure I knew this one. The team who put the ball in play gets the choice (rule 4-2-3 b). I also found this... just checking to see if I was right before I posted (sometimes I think I am right, remember it to be right... and am not right): www.referee.com/protocols-for-inadvertent-whistles/ |
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 9, 2023 20:55:57 GMT -6
I think this is total BS. Anyone help me out here? Well... hate to say, but it is total B.S.... and that was the right ruling after a mistake by the officials. In this case, both are true (you got screwed because some rules are dumb). We've had far too many inadvertent whistles in my day, so I was pretty sure I knew this one. The team who put the ball in play gets the choice (rule 4-2-3 b). I also found this... just checking to see if I was right before I posted (sometimes I think I am right, remember it to be right... and am not right): www.referee.com/protocols-for-inadvertent-whistles/Dang it Senator. But what about this part? "If a player is in possession of the ball when an IW occurs, the team in possession can choose to take the ball at the spot when the whistle was blown, or to replay the down (if all penalties are declined)." I see the part where if the ball is kicked the down must be replayed...but it was kicked and then we possessed it. I know some jobs are difficult, but when you work your ass off to play the right way and a ref makes a mistake like this...I can't stand it. Say "my bad" and I might care a little less. |
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Oct 10, 2023 4:41:31 GMT -6
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Post by larrymoe on Oct 10, 2023 4:41:31 GMT -6
I was under the impression that a blocked FG was a dead play after it crossed the LOS, but that's not an option in this scenario. A blocked PAT is immediately dead. A blocked FG that passes the LOS can be returned like a punt. This ball literally fluttered into our player's hands. He started to run...."beeerrrpppeeep"...whistle. Everyone stops. Definitely and inadvertent whistle...but the ruling was extremely bogus. The more you know. Heck, I only attempted 2 FGs my entire 9 year HC career. |
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Oct 10, 2023 5:28:05 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Oct 10, 2023 5:28:05 GMT -6
Well... hate to say, but it is total B.S.... and that was the right ruling after a mistake by the officials. In this case, both are true (you got screwed because some rules are dumb). We've had far too many inadvertent whistles in my day, so I was pretty sure I knew this one. The team who put the ball in play gets the choice (rule 4-2-3 b). I also found this... just checking to see if I was right before I posted (sometimes I think I am right, remember it to be right... and am not right): www.referee.com/protocols-for-inadvertent-whistles/Dang it Senator. But what about this part? "If a player is in possession of the ball when an IW occurs, the team in possession can choose to take the ball at the spot when the whistle was blown, or to replay the down (if all penalties are declined)." I see the part where if the ball is kicked the down must be replayed...but it was kicked and then we possessed it. I know some jobs are difficult, but when you work your ass off to play the right way and a ref makes a mistake like this...I can't stand it. Say "my bad" and I might care a little less. Agreed. My understanding of the FG ruling was the official blew an IW after the snap but before the kick went through the uprights. In other words, the official incorrectly treated a FG attempt like a PAT. In that situation, the team attempting the FG still has possession and can choose to re-kick. In the scenario above, possession clearly changed before the IW was blown. So that’s why I think the team that recovered the blocked kick prior to the IW should have possession. |
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Post by blb on Oct 10, 2023 6:41:43 GMT -6
Had a similar experience.
We blocked a FG, were in process of recovering-returning it for a TD (just before halftime of a close game) when IW was blown.
Rightly or wrongly, we were given possession as I recall (was 15 years ago) at previous spot. Or maybe where we recovered ball.
Point is officials did not give kicking team option.
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Oct 10, 2023 7:19:03 GMT -6
Dang it Senator. But what about this part? "If a player is in possession of the ball when an IW occurs, the team in possession can choose to take the ball at the spot when the whistle was blown, or to replay the down (if all penalties are declined)." I see the part where if the ball is kicked the down must be replayed...but it was kicked and then we possessed it. I know some jobs are difficult, but when you work your ass off to play the right way and a ref makes a mistake like this...I can't stand it. Say "my bad" and I might care a little less. 4-2-3 c... yeah, I agree.
It seems that officials go back to "b" and give the "last team in possession", and refer back to language in "a" and "b" about the down being replayed.
I know they used to have case books available (they might still have those). It would be interesting to see what is said there.
Football rules need to be cleaned up. In 33 years of my career, the only things that seem to get attention are uniform colors and towel lengths/logos.
The inadvertent whistle rule is bad.
The take a safety with 9 holding penalties is bad (we did that at the end of a game last year... It turned in to a goat show).
Even the PAT rule where the D can't score is kind of bad (I tell our guys never get tackled with the ball in the field of play on a 2 pt. attempt... throw it to someone. That probably gets us an extra 2-4 pts. a year).
I even think the numbering requirement rule is stupid (at least for small 11 man schools... we have 8 guys who have multiple number listings. For Pete's sake, you shouldn't have to change shirts to go play in another spot on the football field).
I could go on...
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2023 9:11:37 GMT -6
What sucks is that our team did two things correctly and still got the short end. We blocked the kick...and recovered it. The whistle clearly blew after our guy had the ball. But...NOPE. IV whistle...other team gets to choose what they do. And what, might you say, happened when the other team got to attempt the play over?  While I'm yelling at the officials I'm also telling my team that the other team is going to FAKE THEIR NEXT ATTEMPT. I hate it when I'm right.  They fake it...we have it covered...incomplete pass. If the other team scores there I might be in some bar still drinking. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 10, 2023 10:46:14 GMT -6
Help an old coach out. I'm pretty good at the rules...but this one...I need clarified. Our team was attempting to BLOCK a field goal (not a PAT). Here is the order of what happened. 1. Ball snapped and kicked 2. Ball is blocked. 3. Ball lands in the hands of one of my players about 8 yards down the field past the LOS. 4. As soon as the ball hits my players hands...an inadvertent whistle blows. After the commotion that I bring up because we should be allowed to return it. The referees tell me that since it is an inadvertent whistle the offensive team gets to "decide what they want to do". In this case...attempt to kick another field goal. I think this is total BS. Anyone help me out here? This is going to turn on what's meant by the parts I bolded and colored. Touching of the ball always precedes possession, but if the ball landed in his hands, that looks like instant possession. So the question is whether the player had possession at the time the whistle was blown, or had just touched and not yet secured the ball. The kick continues as a loose ball until it comes into a player's possession. An inadvertent whistle during that time results in the ruling you got. An inadvertent whistle after possession makes it team B's ball. Now I'm reading what you added later: That looks like possession, so the call you got was bogus. |
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2023 10:48:33 GMT -6
Damn it Bob...needed you Friday.
It was clearly in our dude's hands and then a whistle.
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 10, 2023 10:52:51 GMT -6
Serious question...when things like this happen, why doesn't the crew chief just look it up? Yes, I know it might take some time. But, isn't that better than guessing or winging it and then getting it wrong? This is not a matter of looking it up, this is a matter of agreeing on the facts. One official sees the ball, another blows the whistle...was it in a player's possession or not? No book in the world's going to tell you the facts on the field. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 10, 2023 11:04:53 GMT -6
Damn it Bob...needed you Friday. Even my own team didn't get me that weekend. Week before at an away game, I tripped and fell on the sidewalk...felt like nothing at the time. Over the intervening week, the swelling of my leg just grew so that I had to skip our away game. And with the battery pack left by someone in the rain, I didn't even get HUDL of it! Still working on reducing the edema. |
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Post by blb on Oct 10, 2023 11:19:45 GMT -6
The problem is-was officials who don't know the difference between an Extra Point kick attempt and a Field Goal attempt.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2023 11:49:26 GMT -6
The problem is-was officials who don't know the difference between an Extra Point kick attempt and a Field Goal attempt. Thing was...the side judge was the varsity white hat (this was a JV game). He was a complete prick. Just way too cool for anyone around. As he's trying to figure things out he says to me "the crew f'ed this up". While I appreciate that acknowledgement...it didn't help that his "awesome" crew didn't realize what they were doing. Don't come into the stadium acting like bad asses and then make stupid calls. Makes me really angry. |
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Post by blb on Oct 10, 2023 12:37:47 GMT -6
The shortage of officials (at least in our area) and going to six-man crews has caused a problem with competency.
Or at least how they are working Sub-Varsity games.
A lot of officials are working games two-three days a week (sometimes double headers).
They have to bring on guys with little-not enough experience because of the load.
So they get a little lenient on what they're calling or not.
On top of that Football is not an easy game to officiate especially as it relates to kicking plays.
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2023 13:03:36 GMT -6
I feel like this BLB...I understand the shortage. I understand being "new" on the job.
But what bugs me is not diving into the rulebook and attempting to be the best you can be at the job. It's a tough job, but really trying to be great makes people stand out.
I feel like coaches (all sports) put in so much time to do the best we can. And it feels like (not on purpose) that the missed calls are on purpose.
This kick thing is different for sure. But when it's a strange rule...get your rule book out. Take the time to get it right. It didn't hurt us in the end, but it could have be real bad.
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Post by brettdj on Oct 10, 2023 13:06:57 GMT -6
I was on a crew that screwed an IW up recently. Not quite this play, but a punt.
When the whistle is blown, if the ball is loose then no choice replay down. If in possession, team with possession gets to choose ball at that location or replay the down.
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Post by blb on Oct 10, 2023 13:15:32 GMT -6
I feel like this BLB...I understand the shortage. I understand being "new" on the job. But what bugs me is not diving into the rulebook and attempting to be the best you can be at the job. It's a tough job, but really trying to be great makes people stand out. I feel like coaches (all sports) put in so much time to do the best we can. And it feels like (not on purpose) that the missed calls are on purpose. This kick thing is different for sure. But when it's a strange rule...get your rule book out. Take the time to get it right. It didn't hurt us in the end, but it could have be real bad. I understand your frustration although I don't understand your last sentence in next-to-last paragraph "And it feels like (not on purpose) that the missed calls are on purpose." Huh? The late, great Steeler Coach Chuck Noll told his teams "Play better than the officials officiate." Remember the "Immaculate Reception"? |
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2023 13:32:53 GMT -6
What I'm trying to say is when you are not prepared and miss calls it feels like it's on purpose...even though it's not. It's more because you just aren't sure/don't know what you are doing.
Good quote by Noll.
I just feel our squad isn't good enough to pull away from many teams. Having calls go against us seems to hurt us a lot more because of the fact we aren't dominant.
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Post by blb on Oct 10, 2023 14:22:31 GMT -6
What I'm trying to say is when you are not prepared and miss calls it feels like it's on purpose...even though it's not. It's more because you just aren't sure/don't know what you are doing. Good quote by Noll. I just feel our squad isn't good enough to pull away from many teams. Having calls go against us seems to hurt us a lot more because of the fact we aren't dominant. Not to pick nits but a "missed call" is not calling something that happened - Pre-Snap procedure, Face Mask, etc. An Inadvertent Whistle is a human mistake similar to what Mario Cristobal (Miami FL) made last Saturday. Didn't necessarily have anything to do with "preparation." When I was a HC I could live with officials who "let kids play" some without ignoring the obvious-game changers, things that gave one team a competitive advantage. What I didn't like was officials who called stuff that DIDN'T happen (couldn't see on film) as if they were making things up or materially affect the play (like Holding on opposite side of field from where play was run for ex.). Maybe I'm more sympathetic to striped shirts because I officiated Basketball, Baseball, Softball myself. |
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Oct 10, 2023 17:58:08 GMT -6
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Post by 19delta on Oct 10, 2023 17:58:08 GMT -6
Serious question...when things like this happen, why doesn't the crew chief just look it up? Yes, I know it might take some time. But, isn't that better than guessing or winging it and then getting it wrong? This is not a matter of looking it up, this is a matter of agreeing on the facts. One official sees the ball, another blows the whistle...was it in a player's possession or not? No book in the world's going to tell you the facts on the field. But that’s not what happened here. The officials blew the call. They ignored the fact that possession had changed after the snap but before the IW. They got it wrong. This wasn’t a judgment call. They ruled incorrectly. |
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Post by tothehouse on Oct 10, 2023 20:46:35 GMT -6
When I was an assistant coach I was stupid dealing with refs. Easily yelled at them.
As the HC I get to talk with them more. But I also get the feeling of people quickly. The ref Friday night gave me the "I think I'm the best ref in the world" vibe. Which scares me because they think they can do no wrong.
Then when this happened they had egg on their face and had to show humility. Which they didn't.
That's the part I don't like.
In the end...nothing transpired, but man, it was scary. I'm not happy still, but I'd be livid if they got the down over and got points.
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While I'm yelling at the officials I'm also telling my team that the other team is going to FAKE THEIR NEXT ATTEMPT. I hate it when I'm right. 
They fake it...we have it covered...incomplete pass. If the other team scores there I might be in some bar still drinking.