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Post by fridaynightfreak on Aug 28, 2023 11:52:12 GMT -6
So, I see and hear people discussing "their offensive scheme". Anytime I hear this I think a coach who limits himself to one scheme is limiting his chances for success. In high school sports you don't get to recruit to "your scheme". How many coaches run the same scheme every year and how many change their scheme based off the talent they have?
Thanks for any input.
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Post by blb on Aug 28, 2023 12:04:35 GMT -6
So, I see and hear people discussing "their offensive scheme". Anytime I hear this I think a coach who limits himself to one scheme is limiting his chances for success. In high school sports you don't get to recruit to "your scheme". How many coaches run the same scheme every year and how many change their scheme based off the talent they have? Thanks for any input. I ran "my scheme" virtually every year for 31 years as a HC. If we didn't have success I wouldn't have been a HC for 31 years.
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Post by fridaynightfreak on Aug 28, 2023 12:16:34 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply blb, I tried to quote you but couldn't figure out how to do it. Anyway, I'm curious, what do you consider "success"? I coached with several different HC's. Some ran "their system" every year. Some made changes from year to year based off talent. They Coach I coached with who had the most success ran several different offensive schemes from year to year. He won multiple state titles in his tenure and after his first few years there, his teams were always state title contenders. In fact, he retired from coaching a few years ago, but the school he coached for, and took from a perennial doormat to one of the best programs in the state, is still one the top programs under it's new coach (who coached for him). Again, thanks for any input. Love talking HS sports, especially football.
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Post by MICoach on Aug 28, 2023 12:21:37 GMT -6
I think it's fair to say most guys will run "their scheme" and cater it to the players they have.
A school near me has run a lot of spread-based veer stuff for years, this year they're a little more ground and pound because those are the cats they have.
Similarly, a school in my conference who traditionally ran double tight I and hammered the run game was spread out a bit more when they had a QB who could sling it and a kid or two who could run by people.
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Aug 28, 2023 12:26:41 GMT -6
I think it comes down to making minor adjustments within it. Feature x play more than y, more run less pass, etc. The problem you run into if you scrap it every year is it first off new to the coaches you expect to coach it and it new to the kids. I view as maybe system X might be a perfect fit, but what we do currently with adjustments is going to be better because we know it and have carryover, if your vertically aligned talking about many years.
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Post by blb on Aug 28, 2023 12:34:13 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply blb, I tried to quote you but couldn't figure out how to do it. Anyway, I'm curious, what do you consider "success"? I coached with several different HC's. Some ran "their system" every year. Some made changes from year to year based off talent. They Coach I coached with who had the most success ran several different offensive schemes from year to year. He won multiple state titles in his tenure and after his first few years there, his teams were always state title contenders. In fact, he retired from coaching a few years ago, but the school he coached for, and took from a perennial doormat to one of the best programs in the state, is still one the top programs under it's new coach (who coached for him). Again, thanks for any input. Love talking HS sports, especially football. My definition of on-field success was winning more than we lost, beating our neighborhood rivals, making the playoffs, and winning conference championship. Five wins was a winning season (nine-game schedule). Six wins was a good year. Seven was very good. Eight was excellent, and nine was perfect. I didn't feel it was reasonable to judge our program on state titles because there was only one team a year in our class that was going to be happy by that standard. And none of the schools I coached at could realistically have had that as a goal.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Aug 28, 2023 12:38:54 GMT -6
So, I see and hear people discussing "their offensive scheme". Anytime I hear this I think a coach who limits himself to one scheme is limiting his chances for success. In high school sports you don't get to recruit to "your scheme". How many coaches run the same scheme every year and how many change their scheme based off the talent they have? Thanks for any input. I used to believe that you need to change your scheme year to year based on personnel and that was good coaching. However, I've changed my philosophy and believe that you're doing yourself and your players a disservice if your changing constantly. There are a few issues with this. 1. It doesn't allow your kids to fully grasp onto a specific system for the future. 2. There becomes a lack of belief in what the program does. 3. Hard to develop a program "identity" if your changing from year to year. and most importantly 4. A coach must do what he truly believes in. Now I'm not saying that you need to be facemelter, throwing the ball 40 times a game when you don't have a real QB. This is where I believe that your system in and of itself needs to be adaptable which is why I'm a fan of the power spread which allows us to play to our strengths from year to year. These all or nothing like schemes such as the double wing or Run and shoot don't exactly fit well with that. JMO.
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Post by nicku on Aug 28, 2023 12:58:36 GMT -6
It's more a set of beliefs and pillars, and therefore not so concrete, right?
"My offense" is centered around being gap-scheme heavy in the run game and a progression-based pass game.
That's what I believe in...doesn't mean we can't change things from year to year in order to fit into those parameters, dependent on our personnel.
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Post by tog on Aug 28, 2023 14:24:08 GMT -6
as I have long said here, there are 3 types of offense to even out talent gaps
1. option 2. misdirection 3. sling it
basing in one or the other is the way forward based on what you know, then moving from there based on talent
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Post by coachtua on Aug 28, 2023 18:18:49 GMT -6
I think you have your base scheme and you just adapt every year to your strengths. We still run our base stuff but we might be a little more pass heavy due to having a great QB one year and the next year be a little more run heavy. It all exists within our scheme.
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 28, 2023 19:40:27 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply blb, I tried to quote you but couldn't figure out how to do it. Anyway, I'm curious, what do you consider "success"? I coached with several different HC's. Some ran "their system" every year. Some made changes from year to year based off talent. They Coach I coached with who had the most success ran several different offensive schemes from year to year. He won multiple state titles in his tenure and after his first few years there, his teams were always state title contenders. In fact, he retired from coaching a few years ago, but the school he coached for, and took from a perennial doormat to one of the best programs in the state, is still one the top programs under it's new coach (who coached for him). Again, thanks for any input. Love talking HS sports, especially football. I think you are making an assumption that a team's system does not have the capabilities to feature different skill sets from year to year. Depending on the details, what you may be describing is likely to be "frowned upon" by many HS coaches. If for example, what you are describing in practice is that a coach who has run say the Wing-T for 2 years has a move in QB who is quite talented and can throw the ball with more accuracy and velocity than those in the past decides "Ok, I need to scrap the Wing-T and start running a 4 wide air raid offense". That usually ends up badly for a program. If on the other hand, you mean that the coach who ran the ball using Trap, Buck, Belly, Counter, and Down 80% of the time the previous season has that move in and now is 50-50 and running Waggle, Waggle Solid, Sprint out with WB motion to a twins set etc..that is just good coaching.
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Post by bobgoodman on Aug 29, 2023 6:56:50 GMT -6
I have a friend who's a professional gambler on college football, always looking for a little edge, so he sometimes asks me questions. Recently he asked me about a certain change in player personnel on a major college team, as to whether the coach concerned would take advantage by playing an extra linebacker and taking a player out of the line, or vice versa. I told him that while at the level I coach we frequently adapt our systems heavily to the players we have, at the level of major colleges it's all about what the coaches are known and hired for, and that they recruit players to fit the coach's system, and would either try to hammer a square peg into the round hole they have, or bench him.
I think that as you gain experience coaching, you should pick up more than one system in your tool kit that you've become familiar enough with to choose between them in any given season based on the players you have. If you have enough experience scattered around your staff, you might want to shuffle the jobs to get into the right position an expert in the most suitable system for your players. I'm talking about a preseason meeting in which they'd all confer about the players expected to be available, and then have a coach say, "This group is near ideal for a system of [offense|defense] I know and would like to take charge of this fall. It goes like this...."
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Post by jstoss24 on Aug 29, 2023 8:27:09 GMT -6
Others have already said this, but in my opinion, a "system" should be adaptable to changing personnel. My offense is not just a collection of plays, but a philosophy, language, and organization system. Because of that, I can run just about anything that I could want a group of players to run without having to worry about changing "systems."
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Post by fantom on Aug 29, 2023 12:36:10 GMT -6
We actually did change systems once, going from a Pro I offense to a full read triple option wishbone. The reason was simple: our QB got injured and we literally had nobody else that could throw. There were, however, reasons that we did it successfully: 1. We already ran some option so the whole concept wasn't brand new; 2. We had a coach on staff who'd been a HC and ran the bone. He knew it inside and out.
Eventually we switched back to the I. The wishbone coach had taken another job and the HC was an I guy at heart. Sure, we updated it over the years with some spread formations and such but we never switched "systems" again. If we had a great passer we threw more. If not we ran more. Some years we ran option (But never full-read). Some years we didn't. It was the same system, though.
That HC retired and was replaced by a guy who'd been on staff. He ran the same offense until he left and was replaced by a former player. I watched them play in the state championship game and for a lot of the game they ran a lot of spread stuff. In nut-cutting time, though, holding onto a narrow lead, it was 21 personnel and here comes Iso. It worked.
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Post by irishdog on Aug 29, 2023 12:37:13 GMT -6
I ran a multitude of offenses in my 50 year career based upon the type of talent I inherited in each different school (mostly small schools), and the types of offenses our opponents ran. Had success with each, but came to the conclusion during the last 20 years of that career that the Double Wing gave my teams the best chance to level the playing field against superior opponents, and provided us with the upper hand against similar opponents EVERY year. Sure, I had different types of kids show up each year, and forced me to adapt the "system" to take advantage of personnel. Sometimes we were double tight. Sometimes we had one TE and a good WR. Sometimes we had one really good downhill ballcarrier. Sometimes I had a quality QB. Sometimes I had really small linemen. Etc, etc. But the basics of the offense was always driven by the DW. Just always found a way to plug guys in, find what highlighted our strengths, and not expose our weaknesses, and let it rip.
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 29, 2023 14:00:54 GMT -6
irishdog: This is exactly what I try to do. An adaptable "scheme".
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Post by fridaynightfreak on Aug 30, 2023 8:27:43 GMT -6
Thanks for the awesome input. I guess I should clarify. The previously mentioned coach that changed "scheme" based on talent didn't change his numbering system or anything like that. I just know one season we had stud FB and RB and a really good oline so we ran a ton of I formation. We ran alot of ISO, veer and boot off of counter as well as three step and five step passing game. Previous to that we had avg talent skill positions and smaller oline. We tended to spread things out and try to get the athletes we had the ball in space. A couple years we had a D1 QB and we ran a ton of zone read and passing out of the spread. The kids may not have even known we "switched schemes". I also coached with a guy who ran wishbone. His idea of switching things up was going from double tight bone to having two wideouts. Coached with another guy who had 120+ plays and ran about 6 of them. It seems to me that guys that like the ground and pound dbl tite sets are kind of married to them. Is that not a distinct disadvantage when you have smaller olines and less powerful runners? In my opinion, spreading it out gives you a chance to be successful with less talent. I'm sure others feel differently. I love reading all the comments.
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Post by agap on Aug 30, 2023 8:36:16 GMT -6
There's a coach at a smaller school somewhat close to us that apparently has 4-5 different playbooks, and he chooses which one to use each year based on the talent. He's won a couple state titles.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Aug 30, 2023 8:38:28 GMT -6
We are a big box offense.
We created plays that cover everything from A gap power to Wing T Buck sweep.
we have been hanging our hats on zone and Trap concepts the last few years.
our pass game has been mostly Run and Shoot but has RPO, play action, west coast concepts.
we have formational been in empty and 3 back double tight.
but the system has never changed.
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Post by bulldogsdc on Aug 30, 2023 8:57:35 GMT -6
We have the same play book from 1986. I formation. One TE a Flanker and a split end. Like Novocain. (Except we lost our 1st game)
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Post by Down 'n Out on Aug 30, 2023 11:01:15 GMT -6
So, I see and hear people discussing "their offensive scheme". Anytime I hear this I think a coach who limits himself to one scheme is limiting his chances for success. In high school sports you don't get to recruit to "your scheme". How many coaches run the same scheme every year and how many change their scheme based off the talent they have? Thanks for any input. Your scheme has to be versatile. For instance id never base out of 4 wide gun or 3 back double tight, I may not always have those type of kids. But my offense can get into both of those formations if necessary and if possible. I'm not going to RPO every single play, nor am I going to have 2 Backs lead blocking every play. But I will have the ability to run those type of plays if my talent fits those schemes. Fyi we run Wing-T and have moved to Gun-T, but we can go under center if needed and can at will. RPOs, Air Raid concepts, FB Blast with 2 lead backs, Buck Sweep, Jet, QB Counter, even a Split Zone play is somewhere in the playbook but only 1/4 of what we have will be utilized each season. Everything in the playbook is related and all of it is our system. Last season our OL wasn't as quick and our RB read Zone well so we ran more of that, this season ere primarily a gap team. In years past we ran a ton of Jet, Belly Sweep, Down Sweep, and Buck Sweep. We have a QB coming up, and the Receivers to go with him, I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't more pass happy. The group after that is full of linemen and TE types, we will most likely be a very different looking team.
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Post by mrjvi on Aug 30, 2023 13:12:09 GMT -6
"It seems to me that guys that like the ground and pound dbl tite sets are kind of married to them. Is that not a distinct disadvantage when you have smaller olines and less powerful runners?"
Not if you utilize double teams and tight splits. IMO if you use traditional offenses (wider splits) with small linemen and non powerful runners, you may be in trouble anyway.
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Post by irishdog on Aug 30, 2023 17:02:13 GMT -6
"It seems to me that guys that like the ground and pound dbl tite sets are kind of married to them. Is that not a distinct disadvantage when you have smaller olines and less powerful runners?" Not if you utilize double teams and tight splits. IMO if you use traditional offenses (wider splits) with small linemen and non powerful runners, you may be in trouble anyway. True dat. In the DW our tight line splits were always an advantage. Whenever we had smaller linemen our scheme adjustment would be to run from an "I" formation with my "I" back lined up just behind my B back instead of the normal deep "I" you see most of the time. I rotated my WB's from WB to "I" back. This not only kept our best players in the game (to maintain the threat of the counter and reach), but it also enabled my small linemen to get the hole open, (but because of their size/strength disadvantage the hole typically didn't stay open long) so it gave our backs the opportunity to hit the hole quickly and get through to the second level. If we lined up in our normal DTDW the chances of us getting to the hole with those linemen greatly diminished. Again, playing to our strengths and not exposing our weaknesses.
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Post by coachjm on Aug 31, 2023 4:04:26 GMT -6
Situation matters as well....
Football Schematics like any curriculum should be layered if possible.....
If you are in a situation in which their is heavy turnover in your roster for whatever reason your schematics don't matter beyond you better keep it simple.... However, if your gonna have mostly the same kids for 4 years whatever scheme you run ideally builds upon itself.... This becomes even more important if you have a 7-12 system or a K12 system... The reality is it helps EVERY level when kids come in with some knowledge!
Agree with all the above opinion on the fact that it has to be flexible enough to utilize talent however, I would argue almost all systems have this built in it is a byproduct of an experience coach to know how to do this without making a mess of things...
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Post by CS on Aug 31, 2023 6:04:20 GMT -6
Unless you have a generational athlete come through your program I have never seen the need to change what you do because you have a kid who can sling it a little better than your usual QB or vise versa.
If it's a true system that you know in and out there should be some plays that work better than others based on the strengths of the kids you have
If you change what you do for one kid then what happens if he goes down in the 1st quarter and you don't have a safety net?
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Post by fridaynightfreak on Aug 31, 2023 10:36:25 GMT -6
Situation matters as well.... Football Schematics like any curriculum should be layered if possible..... If you are in a situation in which their is heavy turnover in your roster for whatever reason your schematics don't matter beyond you better keep it simple.... However, if your gonna have mostly the same kids for 4 years whatever scheme you run ideally builds upon itself.... This becomes even more important if you have a 7-12 system or a K12 system... The reality is it helps EVERY level when kids come in with some knowledge! Agree with all the above opinion on the fact that it has to be flexible enough to utilize talent however, I would argue almost all systems have this built in it is a byproduct of an experience coach to know how to do this without making a mess of things... So if you are a wishbone guy, you are going to stick with it even in years where you aren't so good up front? One of the teams I follow runs flex bone regardless of personnel. Seems to me if you widen those two wing backs you make it easier to get the ball in space. I know, Hutch did well running it for a long time, but they had a string of beasts.
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Post by blb on Aug 31, 2023 10:49:15 GMT -6
So if you are a wishbone guy, you are going to stick with it even in years where you aren't so good up front? One of the teams I follow runs flex bone regardless of personnel. Seems to me if you widen those two wing backs you make it easier to get the ball in space. I know, Hutch did well running it for a long time, but they had a string of beasts. If you aren't so good up front - will you be better running something completely new to them, or what they've been doing since they got into HS (if not before)?
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Post by fridaynightfreak on Aug 31, 2023 20:47:05 GMT -6
So if you are a wishbone guy, you are going to stick with it even in years where you aren't so good up front? One of the teams I follow runs flex bone regardless of personnel. Seems to me if you widen those two wing backs you make it easier to get the ball in space. I know, Hutch did well running it for a long time, but they had a string of beasts. If you aren't so good up front - will you be better running something completely new to them, or what they've been doing since they got into HS (if not before)? If you're teaching fundamentals does where you line up change them? I just think you can give your kids a better chance to succeed if you get creative with formations.
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Post by fantom on Aug 31, 2023 21:18:03 GMT -6
Situation matters as well.... Football Schematics like any curriculum should be layered if possible..... If you are in a situation in which their is heavy turnover in your roster for whatever reason your schematics don't matter beyond you better keep it simple.... However, if your gonna have mostly the same kids for 4 years whatever scheme you run ideally builds upon itself.... This becomes even more important if you have a 7-12 system or a K12 system... The reality is it helps EVERY level when kids come in with some knowledge! Agree with all the above opinion on the fact that it has to be flexible enough to utilize talent however, I would argue almost all systems have this built in it is a byproduct of an experience coach to know how to do this without making a mess of things... So if you are a wishbone guy, you are going to stick with it even in years where you aren't so good up front? One of the teams I follow runs flex bone regardless of personnel. Seems to me if you widen those two wing backs you make it easier to get the ball in space. I know, Hutch did well running it for a long time, but they had a string of beasts. The whole point of running an option offense is that instead of blocking everybody up front you're leaving some unblocked and reading them.
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Post by CS on Aug 31, 2023 21:46:57 GMT -6
Situation matters as well.... Football Schematics like any curriculum should be layered if possible..... If you are in a situation in which their is heavy turnover in your roster for whatever reason your schematics don't matter beyond you better keep it simple.... However, if your gonna have mostly the same kids for 4 years whatever scheme you run ideally builds upon itself.... This becomes even more important if you have a 7-12 system or a K12 system... The reality is it helps EVERY level when kids come in with some knowledge! Agree with all the above opinion on the fact that it has to be flexible enough to utilize talent however, I would argue almost all systems have this built in it is a byproduct of an experience coach to know how to do this without making a mess of things... So if you are a wishbone guy, you are going to stick with it even in years where you aren't so good up front? One of the teams I follow runs flex bone regardless of personnel. Seems to me if you widen those two wing backs you make it easier to get the ball in space. I know, Hutch did well running it for a long time, but they had a string of beasts. Let’s get one thing straight here. In the flex they’re slots not wings. Wings are attached to TE. Also if you widen the slots then the timing is off on motions and give the defense time to adjust to it
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